Time to kick out the Israeli Ambassador?

wes · 11-01-2009 2:32pm

PeakOutput wrote: »

ah of course its a case of ' i dont have a problem, you 5 people who dont like me have the problem'

cause and effect. palestine / hamas / terrorists whoever were sending suicide bombers over the border to attack israel....the border gets closed.....the attacks stop on israel the borders reopen. hamas REFUSES to stop attacking israel

Israel refuses to open the borders. Israel refuses to end its apartheid. Israel refuses to stop stealing Palestinian land. Israel refuses to allow refugees the kicked out back to there homes. Israel refuses to stop attacking the Palestinians. Israel refuses to treat the Palestinians like Human beings.

Also, as for cause and effect. If Israel was a racist apartheid state that ethnically cleansed the indigenous population none of this would have happened. See cause and effect can be turned the other way with ease.

PeakOutput wrote: »

secondly it dosnt sound to me like the palestinians had any trouble in getting things they needed into the country. if hamas wanted to feed their people they could but instead they buy rockets to attack israel instead of buying food

There are 1.5 million people in Gaza. The clearly can't feed them due to the siege. The UN and other have reported on the humanitarian crisis caused by Israel.

Also, they clearly do have trouble getting stuff into the country due to the siege.

wes · 11-01-2009 2:33pm

galwayrush wrote: »

palestinians have actually played for the israeli football team,plenty work in factories in Israel. that obviously dosen't fit in with the total apartheid description of israel.:rolleyes:

What about the Jewish only roads in the West Bank? Even apartheid South Africa didn't go that far.

Oh and what about the Bedouin homes being demolished? I could keep going, but can't be bothered.

wes · 11-01-2009 2:34pm

galwayrush wrote: »

If roles were reversed, all Israelies would be either dead or in exile.

Millions of Palestinians are in exile. This is the reality and this was caused by Israel.

galwayrush · 11-01-2009 2:35pm

wes wrote: »

What about the Jewish only roads in the West Bank? Even apartheid South Africa didn't go that far.

Oh and what about the Bedouin homes being demolished? I could keep going, but can't be bothered.

Some Muslim countries have Muslim only roads.:rolleyes:

wes · 11-01-2009 2:37pm

galwayrush wrote: »

Some Muslim countries have Muslim only roads.:rolleyes:

So this justifies what Israel is doing? Oh wait it doesn't.

This is the worst kind of excuse, its like murderer saying "Other people have killed people" to a judge. Its no excuse what so ever. They would still be chucked in jail.

galwayrush · 11-01-2009 2:40pm

wes wrote: »

Millions of Palestinians are in exile. This is the reality and this was caused by Israel.

Hammas keep the flames burning with their constant missile attacks, fuelling hatred and revenge for another generation. Fact. A peaceful dialogue would have been the correct path to follow, not a path that will only keep hatred ,mis-trust and fear the reality for all people in the region.

wes · 11-01-2009 2:45pm

galwayrush wrote: »

Hammas keep the flames burning with their constant missile attacks, fuelling hatred and revenge for another generation. Fact. A peaceful dialogue would have been the correct path to follow, not a path that will only keep hatred ,mis-trust and fear the reality for all people in the region.

Israel fuels another generation full of hate as well. Look at the colonists spray painting "Death to Arabs" on mosques and there hate filled attacks on Palestinians. Also, Israel Jewish only roads, apartheid wall, continued theft of Palestinian land among other fans hatred.

You see the problem is the occupation. It cause hate and violence on both sides. Israel violence is due to enforcing it and the Palestinians due to resisting it.

I reject all violence against civilians on both sides. A Israeli and a Palestinian death are both complete wastes.

You see the thing about dialogue is that both sides need to agree to this. Israel during the Oslo kept up there violent colonization process for example. Both side have been less than honest with peace efforts, but most people present Israel as it they have been serious. I see no evidence of this at all, as they have constantly insisted on continuing with there violent colonization process. This of course does not excuse Palestinians violence, but I mention it to illustrate both sides being less than committed to peace.

Neamhshuntasach · 11-01-2009 2:51pm

I don't

galwayrush · 11-01-2009 2:53pm

Yes, it is sad when the hard-liners from both sides won't budge.
Enemies must talk , it's the only way forward.Thankfully it seems to be working in Northern Ireland. Perhaps that if not the best comparison as the issues in the Middle east are a lot more complicated.I like to think that the vast majority from all sides prefer to co exist in peace. That at least gives hope.

wes · 11-01-2009 3:02pm

galwayrush wrote: »

Yes, it is sad when the hard-liners from both sides won't budge.
Enemies must talk , it's the only way forward.Thankfully it seems to be working in Northern Ireland. Perhaps that if not the best comparison as the issues in the Middle east are a lot more complicated.I like to think that the vast majority from all sides prefer to co exist in peace. That at least gives hope.

I have no doubt the average Israeli and Palestinian want peace.

The problem is the likes of Hamas firing rockets and colonial nutters stealing more Palestinian land and attacking them.

youcrazyjesus! · 11-01-2009 3:16pm

Stop lying. Read what you wrote. You said they had not stopped.

Occam wrote: »

OK, in 2006 Hamas promised the world they would stop their suicide attacks. You tell me I am wrong wrong wrong for saying that they are renaging on that promise. Then your own post prooves my point. You have prooved yourself wrong, wrong, wrong.

Why the hell should we take yours and Carters views on what Hamas official policy is, over Hamas leaderships views on their "official policy" is? Why can't we take their own words and actions as indicative of their views? Just because you and Carter don't like the FACT that they want to destroy Israel doesn't make it false.

Again, I must remind you that just saying something doesnt make it true. If you cannot understand that Hamas are dedicated to destruction of the Israeli state, you fail to grasp the groups main reason for existance. Have a read over their founding charter. Think about if you really want to support a group of holocaust deniers. Think if you really agree that a Zionist conspiracy exists , supported by Freemasons and Rotary clubs. This is Hamas 101 stuff, all written down in their founding charter.

This is baloney. Hamas will never rest while Jews are in control of what they see as their lands. Just because you want to think they will doesn't make it true. Right of return is one of the main impediments to a solution at the moment, whether you like it or not :

"Abu Marzouk, the No. 2 man in the Hamas leadership, said the right of return for the refugees is "sacred" for all Palestinians. "The Palestinian people will never give up this sacred right," he said. "Our people have been fighting for 58 years to achieve the right of return for all those who were expelled from their homeland. We reject any deal that does not recognize the right of return."

"Abdullah Abdullah, a senior Fatah official in the West Bank, described the right of return as sacred. "The right of return cannot be ignored or surrendered,"

youcrazyjesus! · 11-01-2009 3:19pm

PeakOutput wrote: »

i phrased that wrong but dont be simple just for the sake of it

what happened is bali was a result of terrorism and what is happening is gaza is as a result of terrorism so thats what the two have in common

Simplify things much?

What THE **** does Bali have to do with Gaza. Keep your xenophobic comments to yourself.

youcrazyjesus! · 11-01-2009 3:23pm

That explains a lot, being an Australian citizen. The country oozes racism. Don't make us laugh saying you can see both sides.

Hammiepeters wrote: »

Yes,many of us are totally sick of having the tag of ''hawk'' attached to our views just because we can see both sides here. As if we are in someway pro war or dont care about civilians. Its very insulting. It is amazing how attitudes can change very suddenly when the price of supporting Islaamic political ideals comes home to roost. As an Australian citizen, it was remarkable how things changed when nearly 100 young people were slaughtered for the sin of going to a nightclub in Bali. Suddenly people saw that this enemy was closer to home than we thought and that they did not actually like us very much.

Hammiepeters · 11-01-2009 3:27pm

The only person ''oozing racism'' is yourself. You seem to have some near autistic traits when it comes to anyone not seeing your point of view. You need to calm down a bit.

youcrazyjesus! · 11-01-2009 3:29pm

galwayrush wrote: »

The likes of Hammas state that they want to wipe israel off the face of the earth and will keep trying until every last Israeli is dead. How would you expect Israel to respond?

Why do people insist, in the face of facts and logic, that they know better than Shin Bet, Mossad and Jimmy Carter on the subject?

Such arrogance.

PeakOutput · 11-01-2009 3:29pm

youcrazyjesus! wrote: »

What THE **** does Bali have to do with Gaza. Keep your xenophobic comments to yourself.

what you quoted explains what they have in common it was an off the cuff remark though

secondly its a discussion forum ill post any comments i want thanks

galwayrush · 11-01-2009 3:29pm

I thought we were above personal attacks just because we have different point of views.:( Debate is healthy, no need to get nasty about it.

ShooterSF · 11-01-2009 3:32pm

wes wrote: »

I have no doubt the average Israeli and Palestinian want peace.

The problem is the likes of Hamas firing rockets and colonial nutters stealing more Palestinian land and attacking them.

Exactly both sides are just as bad as each other. There are innocent parties on both sides. This not the black and white pantomime some here like to paint it as.
It would be nice if there could be peace but Ireland as a nation should be seen to support peace but other than that keep it's fukin nose out.

Hammiepeters · 11-01-2009 3:32pm

galwayrush wrote: »

I thought we were above personal attacks just because we have different point of views.:( Debate is healthy, no need to get nasty about it.

He does not want to consider anything that does not conform with his point of view. Is calling all Australians racist, racist in itself? Probably . Who cares?

youcrazyjesus! · 11-01-2009 3:33pm

Rojomcdojo wrote: »

Very few people actually talk about this. It's all "Israel closed its borders to starve the Palestinians.." etc. When Egypt have done the same. And for the same reason as Israel has - because groups like Hamas are nothing but trouble and they have to keep them out.

This shows a complete lack of understanding of Egypt. Basically, Egypt is in the back pocket of the Americans and will do as their told.

Every Arab state is terrified that Hamas might provide a good example and so they are a threat and have to be stopped.

Nodin · 11-01-2009 3:34pm

galwayrush wrote: »

Hammas are responsable for the current offensive by Israel, did they really expect Israel to do nothing while they kept firing rockets into Southern Israel?
It was a massive step in the wrong direction, it breeds more hatred .

As stated before, its about far more than Hamas rockets, hence the scale.

Hammierpeters wrote:

When it strikes closer to home maybe you'll change your view..

When what strikes?
O - I asked you to define "Islamic facism". Any reason you havent so far?

galwayrush wrote: »

We are all afterall....Infidels.

To who?

PeakOutput wrote:

and removed all its colonies about 3 and a half years ago.

Not from Arab East Jerusalem, the West Bank etc.

galwayrush wrote: »

palestinians have actually played for the israeli football team,plenty work in factories in Israel. that obviously dosen't fit in with the total apartheid description of israel.

The Apartheid refers to the OT. You might ask why Israel doesnt just annex the West Bank and be done with it.

As for within Israel.....
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/comment/3638934/Second-class-citizens-in-their-own-country.html
http://www.acri.org.il/pdf/State2007.pdf
http://www.hrw.org/legacy/reports/2001/israel2/ISRAEL0901-01.htm

which results in this kind of thing
http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/spages/1049765.html

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2007/12/19/AR2007121902681.html?hpid=topnews&sid=ST2007121902748

wes · 11-01-2009 3:35pm

ShooterSF wrote: »

Exactly both sides are just as bad as each other. There are innocent parties on both sides. This not the black and white pantomime some here like to paint it as.
It would be nice if there could be peace but Ireland as a nation should be seen to support peace but other than that keep it's fukin nose out.

Yeah, the entire thing is one crappy shade of grey.

youcrazyjesus! · 11-01-2009 3:35pm

Hamas have not launched suicide attacks in Israel since 2005 according to Sky News and The New York Times. More nonsense.

PeakOutput wrote: »

i was only listening to a west bank(think they called him the palestinians chief negotiator) spokesman talking the other day about how hamas wont even talk with them and how hamas should stop the rocket attacks immedietely.

ah of course its a case of ' i dont have a problem, you 5 people who dont like me have the problem'

cause and effect. palestine / hamas / terrorists whoever were sending suicide bombers over the border to attack israel....the border gets closed.....the attacks stop on israel the borders reopen. hamas REFUSES to stop attacking israel

secondly it dosnt sound to me like the palestinians had any trouble in getting things they needed into the country. if hamas wanted to feed their people they could but instead they buy rockets to attack israel instead of buying food

ShooterSF · 11-01-2009 3:35pm

youcrazyjesus! wrote: »

Why do people insist, in the face of facts and logic, that they know better than Shin Bet, Mossad and Jimmy Carter on the subject?

Such arrogance.

youcrazyjesus! wrote: »

This shows a complete lack of understanding of Egypt. Basically, Egypt is in the back pocket of the Americans and will do as their told.

Every Arab state is terrified that Hamas might provide a good example and so they are a threat and have to be stopped.

This is why. Cause any facts that dn't support your obvious agenda are wrote off with some excuse while you quickly get back to shining up that Carter pedestal.

Hammiepeters · 11-01-2009 3:36pm

youcrazyjesus! wrote: »

This shows a complete lack of understanding of Egypt. Basically, Egypt is in the back pocket of the Americans and will do as their told.

Every Arab state is terrified that Hamas might provide a good example and so they are a threat and have to be stopped.

There you go again. Any disagreement , you see as ignorance, lies, lack of understanding.

youcrazyjesus! · 11-01-2009 3:36pm

galwayrush wrote: »

palestinians have actually played for the israeli football team,plenty work in factories in Israel. that obviously dosen't fit in with the total apartheid description of israel.:rolleyes:

There are Arabs living in Israel, everybody knows this.

galwayrush · 11-01-2009 3:37pm

youcrazyjesus! wrote: »

Hamas have not launched suicide attacks in Israel according to Sky News and The New York Times. More nonsense.

That's only because of the extreme measures Israel had to take to prevent them from doing so.:rolleyes:

Run_to_da_hills · 11-01-2009 3:38pm

galwayrush wrote: »

Palestinians have actually played for the Israeli football team,plenty work in factories in Israel. that obviously doesn't fit in with the total apartheid description of Israel.:rolleyes:

Its easily known that you haven't been in Israel. Israel has no go districts for Palestinians, their bus service is separate, those that work in factories would be similar to the Catholics that once worked at Harland & Wolfe. I was there 20 years ago and much has changed to the worse since, ie the West bank apartide wall.

PeakOutput · 11-01-2009 3:38pm

youcrazyjesus! wrote: »

Hamas have not launched suicide attacks in Israel according to Sky News and The New York Times. More nonsense.

are you being deliberately stupid?

please show me were sky news or the new york times says that hamas has never sent a suicide bomber into israel

there has not been any suicide bombings SINCE the borders were closed

there has continued to be attacks on israel by rockets.

youcrazyjesus! · 11-01-2009 3:40pm

Hammiepeters wrote: »

He does not want to consider anything that does not conform with his point of view. Is calling all Australians racist, racist in itself? Probably . Who cares?

My anti-Australian racism knows no bounds. My understanding of the subjects goes beyond OMFG Muslims = Bad cos Bali. Grow up.

Hammiepeters · 11-01-2009 3:43pm

youcrazyjesus! wrote: »

My anti-Australian racism knows no bounds. My understanding of the subjects goes beyond OMFG Muslims = Bad cos Bali. Grow up.

One thing for certain is that your' stupidity knows no bounds. I hate no Muslim or anyone for that matter. Islaamic fundamentalism caused Bali- Fact.

youcrazyjesus! · 11-01-2009 3:44pm

ShooterSF wrote: »

This is why. Cause any facts that dn't support your obvious agenda are wrote off with some excuse while you quickly get back to shining up that Carter pedestal.

I just want to be clear, youre saying you know more than the most senior Shin Bet and Mossad officials AND Jimmy Carter ?

Sounds youre talking about yourself dude. I base my opinions on what people like that say, not decide to pick the non-Muslim
side and deny every fact and sneer at every source which proves me wrong.

PeakOutput · 11-01-2009 3:45pm

bali is only relevant in that it was a terrorist attack everyone move on

youcrazyjesus! · 11-01-2009 3:46pm

Hammiepeters wrote: »

One thing for certain is that your' stupidity knows no bounds. I hate no Muslim or anyone for that matter. Islaamic fundamentalism caused Bali- Fact.

nobody is saying otherwise. What people have a problem with is your xenophobic notion that the situation in Gaza has anything to do with Bali.

PeakOutput · 11-01-2009 3:47pm

youcrazyjesus! wrote: »

deny every fact and sneer at every source which proves me wrong.

you have been prety much doing that exact thing for pages now

this is a subjective issue. jimmy carter and whoever else looks at the facts and interprets them to create their opinion. the same thing that everyone here does. sure their opinion is probably better informed it is still however an opinion and not fact in itself.

just because someone looks at the same facts does not mean they will come the same conclusion. this does not make them wrong

Hammiepeters · 11-01-2009 3:47pm

youcrazyjesus! wrote: »

deny every fact and sneer at every source which proves me wrong.

Which is precisely what you do.

youcrazyjesus! · 11-01-2009 3:49pm

Hammiepeters wrote: »

There you go again. Any disagreement , you see as ignorance, lies, lack of understanding.

Given the simplistic and xenophobic ideas expressed by you, a lack of facts and a lack of interest in them (such as out of hand sneering
on what Jimmy Carter has to say),I'd say Im pretty close to the mark.

Hammiepeters · 11-01-2009 3:49pm

youcrazyjesus! wrote: »

nobody is saying otherwise. What people have a problem with is your xenophobic notion that the situation in Gaza has anything to do with Bali.

On the subject of xenophobia. Would you like to clarify your' comments on Australians? No, please don't.

youcrazyjesus! · 11-01-2009 3:50pm

galwayrush wrote: »

That's only because of the extreme measures Israel had to take to prevent them from doing so.:rolleyes:

Hamas unilaterally decided to end suicide bombings in 2006.

youcrazyjesus! · 11-01-2009 3:51pm

Hammiepeters wrote: »

On the subject of xenophobia. Would you like to clarify your' comments on Australians? No, please don't.

Stating that racism is endemic in a country is not racist.

Hammiepeters · 11-01-2009 3:52pm

youcrazyjesus! wrote: »

Given the simplistic and xenophobic ideas expressed by you, a lack of facts and a lack of interest in them (such as out of hand sneering
on what Jimmy Carter has to say),I'd say Im pretty close to the mark.

You just need to understand that Carter and Fisk are people with points of view. That is all. They are not all knowing on the subject of the Middle East. And Carter will not be remembered as a particularly good US President.

youcrazyjesus! · 11-01-2009 3:53pm

PeakOutput wrote: »

you have been prety much doing that exact thing for pages now

this is a subjective issue. jimmy carter and whoever else looks at the facts and interprets them to create their opinion. the same thing that everyone here does. sure their opinion is probably better informed it is still however an opinion and not fact in itself.

just because someone looks at the same facts does not mean they will come the same conclusion. this does not make them wrong

Ive yet to see you reference any facts. Just ignore them.I'd just like to hear somebody state that they know more than Jimmy Carter, ShinBet and Mossad. Just for the laugh.

Why is Jimmy Carter wrong?

I'd just like to hear a

youcrazyjesus! · 11-01-2009 3:54pm

Hammiepeters wrote: »

You just need to understand that Carter and Fisk are people with points of view. That is all. They are not all knowing on the subject of the Middle East. And Carter will not be remembered as a particularly good US President.

nobody bothers to explain why, they just sneer and dismiss him out if hand. That says alot.

Hammiepeters · 11-01-2009 3:54pm

youcrazyjesus! wrote: »

Stating that racism is endemic in a country is not racist.

Australia has greater racial integration than most countries. Stick to the point.

the_syco · 11-01-2009 3:55pm

wes wrote: »

an act of state terrorism.

Before they ran Palestine, Hamas took credibility for most of the attacks on Israel. Thus, as they were voted into power, doesn't this make them a state terrorists?

youcrazyjesus! wrote: »

Hamas unilaterally decided to end suicide bombings in 2006.

Link?

youcrazyjesus! · 11-01-2009 3:55pm

PeakOutput wrote: »

are you being deliberately stupid?

please show me were sky news or the new york times says that hamas has never sent a suicide bomber into israel

there has not been any suicide bombings SINCE the borders were closed

there has continued to be attacks on israel by rockets.

Can you read? I said "SINCE 2005". Not never.

Go back and read my contributions to this thread, its all there. Including references.

Highsider · 11-01-2009 3:56pm

Judgement Day wrote: »

Heard somebody on the radio today (not sure who) calling for the Government to kick out the Israeli Ambassador due to the ongoing situation in Gaza. I had been going through the usual phase of feeling helpless about World affairs since the latest violence errupted and this idea had not even crossed my mind. Why not kick him out? It is the only way a small nation such as Ireland can make its feelings known since protesting through the UN is a joke.

Before anybody gets on about me being anti-semitic, or anti-Israeli, don't bother I am neither. I am pro-Israeli if anything as they are a friend of the West in an unstable region and deserve to have their own state - as do the Palestinians. It is the appalling disproportionate scale of their recent operations against Gaza that I disagree with and the blank cheque given to them by the USA in the matter. I am also pro-American but the unacceptable way these two nations behave in matters relating to Gaza and the Palestinians beggars belief!

Of course the Israeli Ambassador should be called in and told to back his bags without further delay but do you think any of our gutless politicians will do it? It would the first decent thing Biffo has done since taking over from Bertie. What does anybody else think? :mad:

TBH we won't have to kick him out. If Isreal keep going about things in the present manner it's highly likely his homeland will be the victim of a dirty bomb or even nuclear attack at some stage by some terrorist group from the middle east and he won't have a home to return to. The amount of future terrorists they are creating as we speak is self defeating for them. Crazy crazy policy they are pursuing at present.

ShooterSF · 11-01-2009 3:57pm

youcrazyjesus! wrote: »

I just want to be clear, youre saying you know more than the most senior Shin Bet and Mossad officials AND Jimmy Carter ?

Sounds youre talking about yourself dude. I base my opinions on what people like that say, not decide to pick the non-Muslim
side and deny every fact and sneer at every source which proves me wrong.

No I'm saying I disagree with them. Also, I could re-write the bit in bold "I base my opinions on what anti-Israel people say,"

Which ain't far wrong!

youcrazyjesus! · 11-01-2009 3:57pm

the_syco wrote: »

Before they ran Palestine, Hamas took credibility for most of the attacks on Israel. Thus, as they were voted into power, doesn't this make them a state terrorists?

Link?

Click on all my posts , its in my contribution to this thread, including 2links from Sky and New York Times.

Hammiepeters · 11-01-2009 3:57pm

youcrazyjesus! wrote: »

sneer and dismiss

Now who does that remind me of?

Time to kick out the Israeli Ambassador?

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