Overreacting or the right thing to do.

NachoBusiness · 02-07-2015 2:28pm

OP, it's cases like this one yesterday where a cop was cleared for shooting a kid that was carrying a BB gun that you should focus on.

There were even witnesses saying cops lied.

Cops had little or no choice here though.

fullstop · 02-07-2015 2:28pm

ohnonotgmail wrote: »

ok i missed the flash of yellow on the taser. Did she actually fire it though? she dropped it in less than a second.

Think she fired it, but it's marginal. Of course some on here will try to tell you she tasered him to within an inch of his life and then shot him in the head at point-blank range

daheff · 02-07-2015 2:29pm

bucketybuck wrote: »

There is also the real possibility that the guy they know pulled a gun could still try to shoot at them from the ground. I doubt they are trained to take that chance.

ohnonotgmail wrote: »

and a chance (albeit small) that he is still capable of firing back.

there are only 8 seconds between the gun appearing and the last shot being fired.

Not much of a chance after being tased and shot 8 times (i make it 8 shots by sgt & then a further 3-4 by officer when he hits the ground)

fullstop wrote: »

The female officer uses a (yellow) taser first, while the male officer goes straight for his gun.

the video from the sgt gives a better view of what happened. I think the female officer only started shooting after the sgt did it. Otherwise I think she was using the taser.

Raging_Ninja · 02-07-2015 2:29pm

ohnonotgmail wrote: »

ok i missed the flash of yellow on the taser. Did she actually fire it though? she dropped it in less than a second.

She fired it, the guy turned and stumbled and fell, dunno if caused by taser or other officers gunfire.

Hyzepher · 02-07-2015 2:29pm

The front officer moves cutlery out of the way on a table before the guy passes - good instincts but if he is thinking this then surely they frisk him in the toilet

Caliden · 02-07-2015 2:30pm

Didn't read any story before watching the video and honestly thought I was going to see a cop get shot/stabbed.

If it looks like a gun and it's pulled out in a situation like that, how else were they supposed to react?

Chemical Byrne · 02-07-2015 2:30pm

Another interesting experiment showing the difference in police response to open carrying between black and white people.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jf5TEoo-EY0

nxbyveromdwjpg · 02-07-2015 2:30pm

frozenfrozen wrote: »

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eXfUBZptZ9Q

Both perspectives

Officer Griffins' after-the-fact shots seem to be a case of contagious shooting.

frozenfrozen · 02-07-2015 2:32pm

She didn't shoot the taser, watch the video a couple of times at 0.25 speed you can see. (The flash of light when she pulls the taser out is the strobing light on the police mans gun / the laser dot he has)

The man pulled the bb gun, the police man pushes him away while drawing his gun, the female officer draws her taser, the police man is already shooting, she changes to her pistol and shoots him 3 times, the first two times the man is still holding the gun, it's only between the second and third shot that the man rolls over and has released the gun

Canis Lupus · 02-07-2015 2:33pm

end of the road wrote: »

over reaction as per. wouldn't expect anything less from murika and the low standards they have for their police

And captain 'predictable response' has arrived. This is such a cut and dry case of justified shooting and yet you still can't be happy. It's such a shame the guy wasn't black so you could harp on about that as well :rolleyes:

KungPao · 02-07-2015 2:35pm

Surely if he's a suspect for a crime (and you can never be too careful particularly in a country where every man and his dog have guns) he should have been handcuffed and searched in the bathroom?

ohnonotgmail · 02-07-2015 2:37pm

KungPao wrote: »

Surely if he's a suspect for a crime (and you can never be too careful particularly in a country where every man and his dog have guns) he should have been handcuffed and searched in the bathroom?

perhaps they didnt want to do it in confined space full of hard surfaces in case he kicks off?

fullstop · 02-07-2015 2:38pm

Canis Lupus wrote: »

And captain 'predictable response' has arrived. This is such a cut and dry case of justified shooting and yet you still can't be happy. It's such a shame the guy wasn't black so you could harp on about that as well :rolleyes:

He's just taking a break from defending the Egyptian lad

ScumLord · 02-07-2015 2:39pm

osarusan wrote: »

I'd wonder why he wasn't searched/frisked as soon as possible, but maybe there are good reasons for bringing him outside first, I don't know (get him away from as many people as possible?).

He was only suspected, they were bringing him outside the restaurant for questioning and a formal arrest, which I'm sure the owners would have prefered. Don't see anything untowards there.

end of the road wrote: »

over reaction as per. wouldn't expect anything less from murika and the low standards they have for their police

How would you react if someone pointed a gun at you?

daheff wrote: »

whatever about him taking out the gun and the officer shooting initially, the part where she fires mutiple shots at somebody on the ground is (to pardon the phrase) overkill.

People don't die instantly when shot. At any time before he got a fatal shot he could have fired back. You often hear stories of people not even realising they've been shot until they feel the wet of the blood pumping out of them a few minutes later.

ohnonotgmail · 02-07-2015 2:39pm

Has a post just disappeared from this thread? it was there a second ago?

inforfun · 02-07-2015 2:43pm

Kev W wrote: »

Then you don't get to complain that nobody else did.

It wasnt a complaint.
It was an observation and a question.

OU812 · 02-07-2015 2:43pm

I've watched this a couple of times now. The "victim" raises the gun twice, the first time as he takes it out of his pocket (52 seconds) and goes to hold it in an assault stance (ready to fire). He's then tossed out of the way by the sergeant and as he spins, the gun comes up again (56 seconds). This looks like a totally justified shooting to me.

Julez · 02-07-2015 2:44pm

I've seen some ridiculous videos of american police and this is not one of them. Think if that was your mother/father/wife/son whatever behind the badge, you wouldn't want them taking any chances. If you pull a gun on an armed cop you're getting shot.

gandalf · 02-07-2015 2:47pm

ScumLord wrote: »

He was only suspected, they were bringing him outside the restaurant for questioning and a formal arrest, which I'm sure the owners would have prefered. Don't see anything untowards there.

Especially as the guy appeared to be quite willing to go with them. There was nothing to suggest that he was going to do anything untoward.

Sierra 117 · 02-07-2015 3:14pm

It was definitely the right thing to do. The man pulled out a gun. Real gun or no, you don't do that. The police were completely justified in shooting him.

ScumLord · 02-07-2015 3:19pm

The smart thing for that guy to do was realise he's caught and tell the officers he has the gun on the way out. What exactly did he expect to happen when he pulled his toy gun out?

kunst nugget · 02-07-2015 3:19pm

'Hey, everybody! Look! We shoot white people, too!'

hynesie08 · 02-07-2015 3:20pm

Has anyone trotted out the "why didn't they shoot him in the leg/shoot the gun out of his hand" line yet?

ohnonotgmail · 02-07-2015 3:21pm

hynesie08 wrote: »

Has anyone trotted out the "why didn't they shoot him in the leg/shoot the gun out of his hand" line yet?

surprisingly they havent. Shouldnt be too long now though.

Chemical Byrne · 02-07-2015 3:34pm

3
2
1
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He didn't deserve to die for having a bb gun. They could have just shot him leg or shot the gun out of his hand if the were acting purely in self defence. Why didn't the do that?

kunst nugget · 02-07-2015 3:38pm

Chemical Byrne wrote: »

3
2
1
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He didn't deserve to die for having a bb gun. They could have just shot him leg or shot the gun out of his hand if the were acting purely in self defence. Why didn't the do that?

Also, surely the would have seen that imitation is inscribed on the barrel of the gun in 2mm high type when he whipped out the gun. Total amateurs…

bucketybuck · 02-07-2015 3:41pm

Chemical Byrne wrote: »

3
2
1
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He didn't deserve to die for having a bb gun. They could have just shot him leg or shot the gun out of his hand if the were acting purely in self defence. Why didn't the do that?

Also, couldn't they see that he wasn't black?

kunst nugget · 02-07-2015 3:41pm

bucketybuck wrote: »

Also, couldn't they see that he wasn't black?

Total amateurs…

Samaris · 02-07-2015 3:48pm

inforfun wrote: »

3 days ago a guy in The Hague dies while being arrested in The Netherlands, rioting going on for days now.
Not a peep on boards (or Irish media for that matter).

Idiot thief pulls (fake) gun in The USA and faces the consequences and here we are, another thread to have a go at The USA.
What is the obsession with The USA?

(dont come out with: Well, open your own thread about The Hague. I will not.)

I suspect the answer is that in The Hague, this is almost unheard of, and not neccessarily symptomatic of a wider issue. Whereas in the US, stories like these seem to be every second day, and it alarms people because it shows up a huge culture gap that tends to be rendered otherwise invisible by the prevalence of American TV/culture and the shared language.

As fair or unfair as it is, we "expect" things like this to go on only far away, and the more different the culture to our own, the more likely we are to accept it as a "them" issue. With the US, we are very prone to seeing the country as more or less like us, just on a bigger scale. We probably get almost as much news from the US as we do from the UK or Ireland depending on how you get your news from day to day. When something like this happens, and it happens far too much lately, we are far more inclined to notice it than somewhere like Mexico or even the Netherlands.

hullaballoo · 02-07-2015 3:56pm

I wouldn't even draw a picture of a gun around US police.

Buona Fortuna · 02-07-2015 4:02pm

kjl wrote: »

I think the guy is a bit of an idiot, but did he deserve to die? I don't think so.

The guy is a sad loss to the gene pool.

Did he deserve to die - of course not, but then who does?

kjl · 02-07-2015 4:25pm

OK I am willing to admit that I could be wrong on this.

I don't think the guy deserved to die and maybe the real reason I am upset here is because this entire incident happened because American citizens have easy access to handguns. If this happened in Ireland it would have had a different outcome, even if our police were armed.

Guy:Incognito · 02-07-2015 4:31pm

pmasterson95 wrote: »

'Murica
#Freedom
#Gunssavelives

What would the Garda ERU do if you pulled a gun on them? Why dont you try it and see?

Buona Fortuna · 02-07-2015 4:32pm

kjl wrote: »

OK I am willing to admit that I could be wrong on this.

I don't think the guy deserved to die and maybe the real reason I am upset here is because this entire incident happened because American citizens have easy access to handguns. If this happened in Ireland it would have had a different outcome, even if our police were armed.

Not so sure on the last bit tbh.

Would he have a few less holes in him? I'm sure he would, but I'm pretty sure he'd be just as dead.

Pull what looks like a gun on armed police and in the dark, its going to end badly for you, no matter the country.

ohnonotgmail · 02-07-2015 4:32pm

kjl wrote: »

OK I am willing to admit that I could be wrong on this.

I don't think the guy deserved to die and maybe the real reason I am upset here is because this entire incident happened because American citizens have easy access to handguns. If this happened in Ireland it would have had a different outcome, even if our police were armed.

the entire incident happened because the guy is an idiot with a deathwish.

ScumLord · 02-07-2015 4:47pm

Chemical Byrne wrote: »

3
2
1
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He didn't deserve to die for having a bb gun. They could have just shot him leg or shot the gun out of his hand if the were acting purely in self defence. Why didn't the do that?

They obviously don't get much round house kick training these days either. Back in the eighties any cop would have used a roundhouse kick to bring a quick and peaceful end to the situation.

Raging_Ninja · 02-07-2015 4:49pm

kjl wrote: »

If this happened in Ireland it would have had a different outcome, even if our police were armed.

Few years ago there was a post office robbery foiled by armed gardai. One raider pointed a (real) gun at the guards and was killed, as was the raider beside him.

http://m.independent.ie/irish-news/force-used-by-armed-garda-in-foiled-post-office-robbery-proportionate-26783677.html

Not so different.

scdublin · 02-07-2015 5:07pm

Why don't they use taser guns?

ohnonotgmail · 02-07-2015 5:11pm

scdublin wrote: »

Why don't they use taser guns?

ROFL. Somebody points a gun and you think they should pull out tasers?

Guy:Incognito · 02-07-2015 5:15pm

Maybe we should give our soldiers tasers too.:)

02-07-2015 5:26pm

kjl wrote: »

Warning content is a little disturbing.

Yes it's a person being shot until he is dead.

I don't blame the officers for reacting in this way, but I find this thread interesting because nobody seems to be perturbed at watching a man shot dead.

Maybe I'm too prudish about such things, or maybe I don't play enough video games, but I couldn't watch someone do that to a dog.

I fully understand why the police discharged their guns, but it's the humdrum online reaction to seeing a man die in this way that I find most unpleasant of all.

ohnonotgmail · 02-07-2015 5:30pm

A Tyrant Named Miltiades! wrote: »

Yes it's a person being shot until he is dead.

I don't blame the officers for reacting in this way, but I find this thread interesting because nobody seems to be perturbed at watching a man shot dead.

Maybe I'm too prudish about such things, or maybe I don't play enough video games, but I couldn't watch someone do that to a dog.

I fully understand why the police discharged their guns, but it's the humdrum online reaction to seeing a man die in this way that I find most unpleasant of all.

well you dont actually see anything do you? no gunshot wounds, no blood, no closeups.

2Mad2BeMad · 02-07-2015 5:36pm

ohnonotgmail wrote: »

well you dont actually see anything do you? no gunshot wounds, no blood, no closeups.

i saw blood from the wound?
poor fecker got shot so many times theirs more holes in him then their is "him" left

idiot to be honest
real or fake gun, it looked real

although I don't get why they needed to shoot him nearly 10 times, 2 shots would of been enough to get him on the ground, and possible could of saved his life but they continued to shoot even as he stumbled to the ground, i think maybe 1 more shot while his back was facing them on the ground

either way

america is ****ed up in its way of policing but I've heard of such mad crimes over their I can see why their like that.

ohnonotgmail · 02-07-2015 5:42pm

i think it is interesting that because we have video of what happened the response has been (mostly) reasonable and agrees that the police were justified. I wonder what the response would be if we did not have video. Considerably more condemnation of the police i would imagine. The sooner they all start wearing bodycams the better.

02-07-2015 5:47pm

ohnonotgmail wrote: »

well you dont actually see anything do you? no gunshot wounds, no blood, no closeups.

It's not gore, or lack of it, that I reacted to. I just find it disquieting to unexpectedly see a person shot, fall over, and their life evaporate.

I've no doubt most people consider such a reaction a bit precious; until now, I didn't think it was unusual to react to a fatal shooting of a human in that way.

ScumLord · 02-07-2015 6:00pm

A Tyrant Named Miltiades! wrote: »

It's not gore, or lack of it, that I reacted to. I just find it disquieting to unexpectedly see a person shot, fall over, and their life evaporate.

What else was a video about American cops going to be about? You should have been expecting a shooting really.

Sierra 117 · 02-07-2015 6:04pm

2Mad2BeMad wrote: »

although I don't get why they needed to shoot him nearly 10 times, 2 shots would of been enough to get him on the ground, and possible could of saved his life but they continued to shoot even as he stumbled to the ground, i think maybe 1 more shot while his back was facing them on the ground

Because those two shots you fire might miss. And even if they don't, two shots aren't guaranteed to put someone down.

frozenfrozen · 02-07-2015 6:07pm

I'm sure some james bond type would have been able to shoot the gun directly out of his hand, but in the real world it's bang bang bang bang bang bang bang until the person trying to kill you is no longer a threat. He was holding the gun until the second to last shot.

ScumLord · 02-07-2015 6:16pm

frozenfrozen wrote: »

I'm sure some james bond type would have been able to shoot the gun directly out of his hand,

Depends on which James Bond shows up. 1960s Bond would have shot the gun out of his hand and spanked a woman's arse. Modern James bond would shot the guy in the head and get airlifted out by a woman flying a helicopter.

Aimead · 02-07-2015 6:17pm

Looks justified to me, but I do have one concern though. When they were leading the man through the restaurant one of the cops has an exchange that goes something like this: “You want to know what page we’re on? Get outside! That’s what page we’re on.”

I might have gotten that slightly wrong, and I really don’t intend to re-watch what is, essentially, a snuff video to correct it. Does anyone else find that sort of comment and tone extremely unhelpful in a situation like this? That sort of approach will only lead to escalating the situation rather than de-escalating it.

I have noticed that there is a world of difference between US cops and the Gardai in terms of attitude. In my experience the actions and behaviours of the Gardai serve to calm the situation, where by contrast US cops tend to inflame situations for no justifiable reason (I’ve had “go back home to Ireland” yelled at me).

While it could never be argued that the above exchanged caused the shooting to happen, it is something that stood out for me. All that said, in the moment where the ‘gun’ was pulled out the cops were fully justified.

ohnonotgmail wrote: »

I wonder what the response would be if we did not have video. Considerably more condemnation of the police i would imagine. The sooner they all start wearing bodycams the better.

Given some of the videos I have seen I would like to reverse this a little, and ask how many killings were recorded as justified without video?

Overreacting or the right thing to do.

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