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Thornley

1235

Comments

  • #202
    shuffol
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,883 ✭✭✭shuffol


    jm08 wrote: »
    EOS had a fair few players in their prime and not as injury prone. Results were not great in 2005 autumn internationals when POC & BOD were missing either (through injury). Maybe the press have learned since then how important those two players are to Ireland because Ireland had a decent enough 6Ns when they came back.

    The other thing as well is that the manner of EOS appointment didn't go down too well with a lot of people and that is why he was so unpopular.

    You can compare Kidney & EOS's record when they both have the same no of years to build a team (and even at that, EOS was an assistant when he took over).

    Massive difference between depth of the squad then and now. Scrum was a massive issue for pretty much all of EOS reign. I remember an array of backline moves off scrums we had in the 07 6N but couldn't really use them as our scrum was constantly under pressure. We'd no depth at SH until Reddan and Boss emerged in 07 and had no depth at outhalf. We were pretty limited in the back 3 at times too. Anthony Horgan starting against the AB's in 05 being an example.


  • #203
    Tox56
    Registered Users Posts: 11,636 ✭✭✭✭Tox56


    LuckyLloyd wrote: »
    Man, I would just LOVE if we won on Saturday.

    Are you implying that would banish away all the flaws and problems in gameplan and selection over the last 3 years?


  • #204
    mar-z
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,225 ✭✭✭mar-z


    LuckyLloyd wrote: »
    We beat Australia / NZ / SA away under EOS?

    We didn't beat them away under DK either so that is moot.

    We beat them in a neutral ground and being in the stadium I can say that the crowd was very hostile to Australia.

    They have very similar records overall. Kidney got the grandslam but if that last kick from Wales went over he would definitely be considered to have a worse record imo. It didn't so fair play on a great achievement and he will always be remembered as a grandlam winning manager. His problem is that despite laws/ref interpretations changing since then, DK's tactics haven't.


  • #205
    Eva Hollow Remote
    Posts: 0 ✭✭✭✭ Eva Hollow Remote


    shuffol wrote: »
    Massive difference between depth of the squad then and now. Scrum was a massive issue for pretty much all of EOS reign. I remember an array of backline moves off scrums we had in the 07 6N but couldn't really use them as our scrum was constantly under pressure. We'd no depth at SH until Reddan and Boss emerged in 07 and had no depth at outhalf. We were pretty limited in the back 3 at times too. Anthony Horgan starting against the AB's in 05 being an example.

    careful here - We had no depth because EOS didn't develop any depth.

    Again though, the only comparison that is being made between EOS and Kidney is the difference of the media's reaction to both of their form turning to ****e.

    EOS was out the door (rightfully so imo) after his failings were made apparent.

    Kidney still gets an armchair ride for what we've been shown to see is an even worse run of results than EOS left after, and also for several similar failings (squad depth problems where there certainly shouldn't be any).


  • #206
    Podge_irl
    Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 27,266 Mod ✭✭✭✭Podge_irl


    LuckyLloyd wrote: »
    Man, I would just LOVE if we won on Saturday.

    So would I.


  • #207
    LuckyLloyd
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 36,399 ✭✭✭✭LuckyLloyd


    Tox56 wrote: »
    Are you implying that would banish away all the flaws and problems in gameplan and selection over the last 3 years?

    I am implying that, irrespective of whatever else, he would have led us to victory over New Zealand. I have no idea what beating New Zealand would feel like. Just like I had no idea of what winning a GS or beating one of the big three in a world cup felt like. Thanks to DK, I now do.


  • #208
    Podge_irl
    Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 27,266 Mod ✭✭✭✭Podge_irl


    LuckyLloyd wrote: »
    I am implying that, irrespective of whatever else, he would have led us to victory over New Zealand. I have no idea what beating New Zealand would feel like. Just like I had no idea of what winning a GS or beating one of the big three in a world cup felt like. Thanks to DK, I now do.

    I had no idea what losing to Scotland at home in the 6N was like. Thanks to DK, I now do.


    This big issue here is that Thornley refuses to even admit there might be a problem. His writing reads like we're all overreacting and everything is hunky dory. His article post-6N was pathetic - there are thin lines between success and failure and on another day we could have come second. People are unfair on Kidney. People blame him for Ireland's supposed problems (again, pretending like the problems don't even exist, and if they did its certainly not Kidney's fault).


  • #209
    danthefan
    Closed Accounts Posts: 9,770 ✭✭✭danthefan


    Podge_irl wrote: »
    I had no idea what losing to Scotland at home in the 6N was like. Thanks to DK, I now do.


    This big issue here is that Thornley refuses to even admit there might be a problem. His writing reads like we're all overreacting and everything is hunky dory. His article post-6N was pathetic - there are thin lines between success and failure and on another day we could have come second. People are unfair on Kidney. People blame him for Ireland's supposed problems (again, pretending like the problems don't even exist, and if they did its certainly not Kidney's fault).

    His current MO seems to be defend Ireland/Kidney to the absolute hilt at the time, then a few months later mention that everything may not have been perfect. Like he recently said we "misfired" in the 6N, it was just one sentence though, didn't say why or how.


  • #210
    LuckyLloyd
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 36,399 ✭✭✭✭LuckyLloyd


    Podge_irl wrote: »
    I had no idea what losing to Scotland at home in the 6N was like. Thanks to DK, I now do.


    This big issue here is that Thornley refuses to even admit there might be a problem. His writing reads like we're all overreacting and everything is hunky dory. His article post-6N was pathetic - there are thin lines between success and failure and on another day we could have come second. People are unfair on Kidney. People blame him for Ireland's supposed problems (again, pretending like the problems don't even exist, and if they did its certainly not Kidney's fault).

    That isn't untrue though, is it? A couple of kicks either side of the post and we'd have beaten Wales and France (just as we'd have lost the Grand Slam on the other end of the equation).

    The point is that we've been consistently competitive under Kidney. There have been big performances every season - including every season since the Grand Slam.

    The reasonable argument on here is that a more progressive coach would have us doing more, that selections and tactics are not optimal all the time. That's fine. But the argument begins to break down somewhat when it gets pushed out to ANY coach would be better, and the PREVIOUS coach was better.

    Is Thornley too far in favour, too patient? Sure. Is this forum too critical, too bullish on where this collection of players should be? Absolutely.


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  • #211
    Fishooks12
    Closed Accounts Posts: 5,318 ✭✭✭Fishooks12


    LuckyLloyd wrote: »
    That isn't untrue though, is it? A couple of kicks either side of the post and we'd have beaten Wales and France (just as we'd have lost the Grand Slam on the other end of the equation).

    The point is that we've been consistently competitive under Kidney. There have been big performances every season - including every season since the Grand Slam.

    The reasonable argument on here is that a more progressive coach would have us doing more, that selections and tactics are not optimal all the time. That's fine. But the argument begins to break down somewhat when it gets pushed out to ANY coach would be better, and the PREVIOUS coach was better.

    Is Thornley too far in favour, too patient? Sure. Is this forum too critical, too bullish on where this collection of players should be? Absolutely.


    Most of the reasonable posters on this form don't expect Ireland to win every international game we play. But the fact is we should be winning more

    And we should be playing a brand of rugby suited to the talent we have rather than Kidneys horribly outdated style of play and players picked regardless of form


  • #212
    Podge_irl
    Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 27,266 Mod ✭✭✭✭Podge_irl


    LuckyLloyd wrote: »
    That isn't untrue though, is it? A couple of kicks either side of the post and we'd have beaten Wales and France (just as we'd have lost the Grand Slam on the other end of the equation).

    Indeed, but that's true of a huge number of test matches. Its a facile point. When small things go against you 3 years in a row there is a bigger problem.
    The point is that we've been consistently competitive under Kidney. There have been big performances every season - including every season since the Grand Slam.

    Consistency is the most glaring thing we haven't had under Kidney since that first season. Those intermittent "big performances" only serve to highlight the failings in the team in all the other games.
    But the argument begins to break down somewhat when it gets pushed out to ANY coach would be better, and the PREVIOUS coach was better.

    Very, very few people are claiming EOS was better. I'm certainly not. I'm saying the press turned on him due to very comparable results that Kidney is currently getting and for a shorter time period.


  • #213
    Tox56
    Registered Users Posts: 11,636 ✭✭✭✭Tox56


    LuckyLloyd wrote: »
    Podge_irl wrote: »
    I had no idea what losing to Scotland at home in the 6N was like. Thanks to DK, I now do.


    This big issue here is that Thornley refuses to even admit there might be a problem. His writing reads like we're all overreacting and everything is hunky dory. His article post-6N was pathetic - there are thin lines between success and failure and on another day we could have come second. People are unfair on Kidney. People blame him for Ireland's supposed problems (again, pretending like the problems don't even exist, and if they did its certainly not Kidney's fault).

    That isn't untrue though, is it? A couple of kicks either side of the post and we'd have beaten Wales and France (just as we'd have lost the Grand Slam on the other end of the equation).

    The point is that we've been consistently competitive under Kidney. There have been big performances every season - including every season since the Grand Slam.

    The reasonable argument on here is that a more progressive coach would have us doing more, that selections and tactics are not optimal all the time. That's fine. But the argument begins to break down somewhat when it gets pushed out to ANY coach would be better, and the PREVIOUS coach was better.

    Is Thornley too far in favour, too patient? Sure. Is this forum too critical, too bullish on where this collection of players should be? Absolutely.

    The argument that the previous coach was better isn't the main debate. The main argument is that EOS had similar results, but was treated considerably differently.

    And where do we all think this collection of players should be?


  • #214
    GerM
    Closed Accounts Posts: 5,592 ✭✭✭GerM


    Deleted User wrote: »
    careful here - We had no depth because EOS didn't develop any depth.

    I think it's harsh to level that at EOS. He made efforts to develop depth but it was difficult when we were, to be blunt, operating with 2.5 provinces. Ulster finished third in their HEC group in 06/07 narrowly avoiding bottom spot and mid table in the ML. Connacht were second from bottom in the ML thanks to The Borders and third from bottom of their AC pool. They were poor to mediocre sides at best. We're now operating with close to 4 with the likes of McCarthy, Muldoon, Wilkinson and Loughney being options and Ulster being a genuine European contender. The provincial academy structure has started to produce and the current Irish set up can reap the benefits as it should. We've options coming out of our ears now simply due to the provinces doing their job.

    In the space of 12 months (11/05 - 11/06), EOS gave the following players a start against Tri-Nations sides:

    Front rows - Horan, Rory Best, John Hayes, Shane Byrne and Bryan Young.
    Locks - DOC, POC, MOK
    Back row - Neil Best, Leamy, Wallace, Easterby, JOC
    Half back - Stringer, Boss
    Back three - Trimble, S. Horgan, A. Horgan, Bowe, Murphy, Dempsey, Hickie.

    Some of that was due to injury but a good lot of it was rotation and for the sake of development. Young, Boss, both Bests, JOC and Trimble were all selected when other experienced, proven options were available for example. The standard of player simply wasn't there for Ireland to rotate really when it came to the crunch in 2007 but it wasn't for lack of trying. EOS could have and should have tried harder to develop a back up for ROG.


  • #215
    LuckyLloyd
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 36,399 ✭✭✭✭LuckyLloyd


    Tox56 wrote: »
    The argument that the previous coach was better isn't the main debate. The main argument is that EOS had similar results, but was treated considerably differently.

    And where do we all think this collection of players should be?

    He really, truly didn't though.


  • #216
    Eva Hollow Remote
    Posts: 0 ✭✭✭✭ Eva Hollow Remote


    LuckyLloyd wrote: »
    He really, truly didn't though.

    I presume you've missed Irish rugby since 2010 began?

    Possibly missed this post too.

    http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=79080674&postcount=184

    :bigheart:


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  • #217
    GerM
    Closed Accounts Posts: 5,592 ✭✭✭GerM


    LuckyLloyd wrote: »
    He really, truly didn't though.

    I'm genuinely confused. Under EOS we were consistently contending for winning the 6N: for three out of four years, we were one game from winning the GS. That's consistency. The silverware didn't come but it was a great period of results. We we were arguably the best team in Europe over a sustained period of several years, we were being widely tipped for a semi final at least going into a WC, we were competing with NZ in their back yards. We did it all playing some of the best, most complete rugby seen internationally in the past decade. 2004 - 2007 was the best sustained spell for Irish national rugby in my life time.


  • #218
    Tox56
    Registered Users Posts: 11,636 ✭✭✭✭Tox56


    LuckyLloyd wrote: »
    He really, truly didn't though.

    Well, I can only repeat what was said above, and link you to this comparison of their last 2 years, with extremely similar records.


  • #219
    CatFromHue
    Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators Posts: 18,217 Mod ✭✭✭✭CatFromHue


    The below is taken from Wikipedia so take from that what you want.

    6nations.jpg

    Consistency is one thing I take. Warren Gatland was in charge for two seasons and his record was P10 W7, Kidneys is P20 W13 D 1 and EOS is P35 W24.


  • #220
    GerM
    Closed Accounts Posts: 5,592 ✭✭✭GerM


    The Welsh record is the most eye catching. Remarkable that they're the most successful side there in terms of silverware but have a negative points difference. I miss the days when they couldn't buy a win against us. Cardiff was a more secure victory for us than Dublin!


  • #221
    Tox56
    Registered Users Posts: 11,636 ✭✭✭✭Tox56


    Infact, I just compared the Six Nations records of Kidney and EOS in their first 4 years:

    EOS:

    Played 20 Won 15 Lost 5

    Kidney:

    Played 20 Won 13 Lost 6 Draw 1


    Amazing how EOS never won a Grand Slam, we got better under him post-2004 and still couldn't do it.


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  • #222
    LuckyLloyd
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 36,399 ✭✭✭✭LuckyLloyd


    GerM wrote: »
    I'm genuinely confused. Under EOS we were consistently contending for winning the 6N: for three out of four years, we were one game from winning the GS. That's consistency. The silverware didn't come but it was a great period of results. We we were arguably the best team in Europe over a sustained period of several years, we were being widely tipped for a semi final at least going into a WC, we were competing with NZ in their back yards. We did it all playing some of the best, most complete rugby seen internationally in the past decade. 2004 - 2007 was the best sustained spell for Irish national rugby in my life time.

    You play to win the game.


  • #223
    Podge_irl
    Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 27,266 Mod ✭✭✭✭Podge_irl


    LuckyLloyd wrote: »
    You play to win the game.

    Grand so, we haven't been doing that for 3 years.


  • #224
    desertcircus
    Registered Users Posts: 2,648 ✭✭✭desertcircus


    LuckyLloyd wrote: »
    You play to win the game.

    Which Kidney has not been doing with any consistency for at least two years.


  • #225
    GerM
    Closed Accounts Posts: 5,592 ✭✭✭GerM


    LuckyLloyd wrote: »
    You play to win the game.

    You best tell the current set up so.


  • #226
    TomLamp
    Registered Users Posts: 144 ✭✭TomLamp


    Tox56 wrote: »
    Infact, I just compared the Six Nations records of Kidney and EOS in their first 4 years:

    EOS:

    Played 20 Won 15 Lost 5

    Kidney:

    Played 20 Won 13 Lost 4 Draw 1


    Amazing how EOS never won a Grand Slam, we got better under him post-2004 and still couldn't do it.

    What?


  • #227
    Tox56
    Registered Users Posts: 11,636 ✭✭✭✭Tox56


    TomLamp wrote: »
    Tox56 wrote: »
    Infact, I just compared the Six Nations records of Kidney and EOS in their first 4 years:

    EOS:

    Played 20 Won 15 Lost 5

    Kidney:

    Played 20 Won 13 Lost 4 Draw 1


    Amazing how EOS never won a Grand Slam, we got better under him post-2004 and still couldn't do it.

    What?

    Hmm you're right hold on


  • #228
    DEFTLEFTHAND
    Registered Users Posts: 16,500 ✭✭✭✭DEFTLEFTHAND


    GerM wrote: »
    The Welsh record is the most eye catching. Remarkable that they're the most successful side there in terms of silverware but have a negative points difference. I miss the days when they couldn't buy a win against us. Cardiff was a more secure victory for us than Dublin!

    Yes I remember in the 90s the Welsh game would often be our only win of the campaign.


  • #229
    Tox56
    Registered Users Posts: 11,636 ✭✭✭✭Tox56


    It was Lost 6, not 4.


  • #230
    molloyjh
    Registered Users Posts: 24,767 ✭✭✭✭molloyjh


    LuckyLloyd wrote: »
    The point is that we've been consistently competitive under Kidney.

    When!? We've placed 3rd in the last 3 6Ns. Where is our competitiveness? If we play to win and are not winning then we're not competitive.....:confused:
    LuckyLloyd wrote: »
    There have been big performances every season - including every season since the Grand Slam.

    The odd big performance here and there is not enough. Every performance should be a big one.

    LuckyLloyd wrote: »
    Is Thornley too far in favour, too patient? Sure. Is this forum too critical, too bullish on where this collection of players should be? Absolutely.

    So you don't think it's reasonable to believe that Ireland should be winning more 6 Nations and should have at least made the SF in the RWC? No one is talking about winning every game. All we expect is that a team that has players from 5 different HEC wins over the last few years should be doing better. And that they aren't is frustrating.


  • #231
    Quint2010
    Registered Users Posts: 5,178 ✭✭✭Quint2010


    Here's Gerry's take on Deccie's team selection..

    http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/sport/2012/0607/1224317443549.html


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  • #232
    totallegend
    Closed Accounts Posts: 5,234 ✭✭✭totallegend


    Quint2010 wrote: »
    Here's Gerry's take on Deccie's team selection..

    http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/sport/2012/0607/1224317443549.html

    I've been offline all day (thanks UPC) so this may have been commented upon, but Thornley clearly had the team before it was made public. When the team was announced publicly at 2am, the final decision had been made on Ross not playing but Gerry's column was written when the final call had yet to be made, however he still knew the other 14 names...


  • #233
    Podge_irl
    Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 27,266 Mod ✭✭✭✭Podge_irl


    totallegend wrote: »
    I've been offline all day (thanks UPC) so this may have been commented upon, but Thornley clearly had the team before it was made public. When the team was announced publicly at 2am, the final decision had been made on Ross not playing but Gerry's column was written when the final call had yet to be made, however he still knew the other 14 names...

    I imagine a few newspapers were given the team beforehand so they could print it in Thursdays newspapers.


  • #234
    jm08
    Registered Users Posts: 11,301 ✭✭✭✭jm08


    Podge_irl wrote: »
    That's just nonsense. The only irreplaceable player we have is BOD and one of his best ever seasons was in 09 when he almost single handedly dragged Ireland to the GS. For every great player we lost, we've gained others. Not always in the same position, but Kidney has better props and a better backrow then EOS ever had.

    And all this is still missing the point, that whether one was better then the other its a very narrow margin. Ireland were exceptional in the 07 6N, played some spellbinding rugby. It took one poor season for people in the media to want EOS gone. We've now endured 3 fairly middling seasons in the row (all of which had comparatively poor 6N performances) and not a peep.

    Sorry, thats just nonsense. Very few players arrived the fully fledged international finished article and I wouldn't dismiss the kind of class and experience that the likes of Denis Hickie & Shane Horgan would have over Zebo & McFadden who are only learning the ropes. Are you trying to claim that D'Arcy for instance is as good as he was back in 2004 (when he was player of the 6Ns). Most of all, Cian Healy didn't arrive as a fully qualified international prop 2 years ago. Rory Best used get the yips regularly, Ross is injury prone, POC mostly injured over the last 2 seasons, Mal O'Kelly was a fairly classy lock (much better than what will be starting on Saturday), POM > Simon Easterby? (maybe in 2/3 years time), SOB > David Wallace? (maybe in 2/3 years time), Heaslip off form, I could go on and on ... I'm sure you'll get my drift.

    Eddie's team peaked around 06-07 - after that it went rapidly downhill and Kidney is now trying to pick up the pieces.

    PS - Eddie survived a pasting around 04-05 season. As Assistant & Head Coach, Eddie has had about 10 years with that group of players before he resigned in '08. Kidney has had a little over 3 years.


  • #235
    Tox56
    Registered Users Posts: 11,636 ✭✭✭✭Tox56


    Kidney is "picking up the pieces"??? Given the depth and quality of talent available I'm stunned you can possibly say that


  • #236
    molloyjh
    Registered Users Posts: 24,767 ✭✭✭✭molloyjh


    jm08 wrote: »
    Eddie's team peaked around 06-07 - after that it went rapidly downhill and Kidney is now trying to pick up the pieces.

    Picking up the pieces!? EOS had nothing to do with us going from a GS winning team to being consistantly average. Pull the other one.....


  • #237
    jm08
    Registered Users Posts: 11,301 ✭✭✭✭jm08


    molloyjh wrote: »
    Picking up the pieces!? EOS had nothing to do with us going from a GS winning team to being consistantly average. Pull the other one.....

    Have you ever even tried to compare the starting team 2 years ago to the one starting on Saturday.

    Do you honestly think Healy was as good as he is now (and getting even better) than he was for his first 10-15 caps?

    Do you think Fergus McFadden (or whoever D'Arcy's replacement is going to be) is as good as D'Arcy was around 05-07?

    How would you rate Sexton's first 6ns or his 2nd 6Ns? Has he improved anything since then?

    Do you think all those players mentioned have not improved one iota in the last 2 years?

    Do you think BOD at the moment is as good as he was in 04-05? Do you think Simon Zebo/Craig Gilroy/Andrew Trimble is as good a player as Denis Hickie or Luke Fitz was?

    Do you think Fergus McFadden/Dave Kearney at the moment is as good as Shane Horgan was?

    I'd love to get your comparative ratings of all these players.


  • #238
    Tox56
    Registered Users Posts: 11,636 ✭✭✭✭Tox56


    jm08 wrote: »
    molloyjh wrote: »
    Picking up the pieces!? EOS had nothing to do with us going from a GS winning team to being consistantly average. Pull the other one.....

    Have you ever even tried to compare the starting team 2 years ago to the one starting on Saturday.

    This is where you go wrong, the starting team on Saturday is hugely different from what we've seen throughout Kidney's time as coach, due to a combo of injuries/experimentation.

    McFadden and Zebo are the wings, Kidney has had the likes of Bowe, Earls, Trimble, Fitzgerald available in this position for most of his tenure.

    Similar story with having Ross available over Fitzpatrick, POC over Tuohy, Ferris over POM and the like.

    If you're going to assess the difference between the talent EOS and Kidney had available in their time, Saturday is the last place you should start, but I'm sure you know that.


  • #239
    irishbucsfan
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 37,978 ✭✭✭✭irishbucsfan


    This was Kidneys 4th 6 Nations. Let's compare the team that started for us against France in EOS' 4th 6 Nations to this season?

    2005
    Murphy, Dempsey, O'Driscoll, Maggs, Hickie, O'Gara, Stringer, Foley, O'Connor, Easterby, O'Connell, O'Kelly, Hayes, Byrne, Corrigan
    2012
    Kearney, Bowe, Earls, D'Arcy, Trimble, Sexton, Murray, Heaslip, O'Brien, Ferris, O'Connell, O'Callaghan, Ross, Best, Healy

    This years team is far better. Even with O'Driscoll and Fitzgerald out injured.

    So after 4 years as coach, O'Sullivan finished 3rd, 2nd, 2nd, 3rd. Missing out on two Grand Slams by one match. Kidney had his Grand Slam then finished 2nd (two losses), 3rd (two losses) and then obviously this year he only managed his 2 wins against Scotland/Italy.

    This despite the fact Kidney has European Champions throughout his team. EOS had one, David Humphreys on the bench. EOS had 2 quarter finalist teams in 04-05, both knocked out conclusively. Kidney had 1 quarter finalist, 1 finalist and the European champions.

    Kidney this season had Irelands joint-worst 6 Nations win total since the competition was converted. The last time we won this number of games it was deemed so bad that EOS resigned, obviously Kidneys standards are a little lower than that as he has continued.

    Ireland improved consistently under EOS right up until 2007. Kidney has had the opposite effect.


  • #240
    Riskymove
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 10,899 ✭✭✭✭Riskymove


    molloyjh wrote: »
    Exactly. I'm not sure you're getting the point people are making here. No one is saying EOS was a far superior coach. We're saying that there's feck all between them, yet the press (Thornley being a prime example) are treating DK completely differently now to how they treated EOS then.

    I only posted the stats because people posted DK stats

    It was simply a way of comparing them and showing that overall there is very little difference in the win ratios etc despite some of the comments

    I made no judgements or opinions on either coach

    My point is that statistics only go so far as a guide to rating anyone. As people have pointed out, some games Ireland did not have a full team etc
    However, skewing the stats to suit your agenda doesn't sit right with me and I reacted to that

    The main issue at present for me is not simply statistics or win ratios, it is about performance and that for me is the main issue DK has to answer at present


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  • #241
    CatFromHue
    Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators Posts: 18,217 Mod ✭✭✭✭CatFromHue


    A good article as usual from Tony Ward this morning.

    http://www.independent.ie/sport/rugby/tony-ward-pressure-on-kidney-to-give-kiwis-real-test-3132420.html

    "And, yet, there is pressure on Declan Kidney to deliver. Scotland's humbling of the Wallabies, our U-21s' magnificent victory over Junior World Cup hosts South Africa and Leinster's Heineken Cup triumph all add to the sense of expectation."
    --
    "However, any capitulation would see the Irish management team very much in the firing line. We're not quite at make-or-break time, but the next three Saturdays will have a massive bearing on what happens in the future."


  • #242
    molloyjh
    Registered Users Posts: 24,767 ✭✭✭✭molloyjh


    jm08 wrote: »
    Have you ever even tried to compare the starting team 2 years ago to the one starting on Saturday.

    How any of that is relevant to what I said I'm not sure I'll ever know. You claimed DK has been picking up the pieces from EOS, but the last 2.5 years the team has been in decline. The results, lack of any form of silverware and seeding all show that quite clearly. Let's not even talk about some of our performances.
    Riskymove wrote: »
    I only posted the stats because people posted DK stats

    It was simply a way of comparing them and showing that overall there is very little difference in the win ratios etc despite some of the comments

    I made no judgements or opinions on either coach

    My point is that statistics only go so far as a guide to rating anyone. As people have pointed out, some games Ireland did not have a full team etc
    However, skewing the stats to suit your agenda doesn't sit right with me and I reacted to that

    The main issue at present for me is not simply statistics or win ratios, it is about performance and that for me is the main issue DK has to answer at present

    We're probably in agreement for the most part. I was reacting to a post that claimed that the difference in achievements was stark. I don't think it is. I do think DK has had a longer run of poor results than EOS did and given that we are talking about the reaction from the media towards them based on results I reckon it's fair enough to call it into question. I didn't "skew" anything though. I took a point in time that was relevant to the debate and provided the data.

    I agree that performance is the big one though. It just wasn't part of the context of the debate. That said if you take care of the performance you're doing 90% of the work towards taking care of the results....


  • #243
    shuffol
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,883 ✭✭✭shuffol


    CatFromHue wrote: »
    A good article as usual from Tony Ward this morning.

    http://www.independent.ie/sport/rugby/tony-ward-pressure-on-kidney-to-give-kiwis-real-test-3132420.html

    "And, yet, there is pressure on Declan Kidney to deliver. Scotland's humbling of the Wallabies, our U-21s' magnificent victory over Junior World Cup hosts South Africa and Leinster's Heineken Cup triumph all add to the sense of expectation."
    --
    "However, any capitulation would see the Irish management team very much in the firing line. We're not quite at make-or-break time, but the next three Saturdays will have a massive bearing on what happens in the future."

    This comment rankled with me though.
    "Simon Zebo offers a more balanced left side alternative to the hugely committed but more limited Andrew Trimble"


  • #244
    Fishooks12
    Closed Accounts Posts: 5,318 ✭✭✭Fishooks12


    shuffol wrote: »
    This comment rankled with me though.
    "Simon Zebo offers a more balanced left side alternative to the hugely committed but more limited Andrew Trimble"

    Ya that's odd alright. Zebo is in better form but Trimble is an infinitely more balanced winger


  • #245
    GerM
    Closed Accounts Posts: 5,592 ✭✭✭GerM


    shuffol wrote: »
    This comment rankled with me though.
    "Simon Zebo offers a more balanced left side alternative to the hugely committed but more limited Andrew Trimble"

    I wouldn't disagree hugely with that. I'd think Trimble would be more effective in this game as he's good at coming up and killing a move with a shuddering hit and is a very hard runner but, as a left winger, Zebo does add a balance especially with his booming left boot. Trimble is better as a right winger, I think where his physicality is in demand more.


  • #246
    shuffol
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,883 ✭✭✭shuffol


    GerM wrote: »
    I wouldn't disagree hugely with that. I'd think Trimble would be more effective in this game as he's good at coming up and killing a move with a shuddering hit and is a very hard runner but, as a left winger, Zebo does add a balance especially with his booming left boot. Trimble is better as a right winger, I think where his physicality is in demand more.

    I dont like the suggestion of Trimble been "limited" in comparison to Zebo. Bit disrespectful IMO to a player who's been one of the top wingers in the country for the past few seasons. Zebo's got endless potential but a far less rounded game than Trimble at this moment.


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  • #247
    thebaz
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 13,713 ✭✭✭✭thebaz


    Thornley used to be a very good journalist a few years ago - but he went the opposite direction to George Hoook , and became a conservative, dont rock the boat, safe journo - shame really , that he rarely asks the hard questions these days,


  • #248
    totallegend
    Closed Accounts Posts: 5,234 ✭✭✭totallegend


    GerM wrote: »
    I wouldn't disagree hugely with that. I'd think Trimble would be more effective in this game as he's good at coming up and killing a move with a shuddering hit and is a very hard runner but, as a left winger, Zebo does add a balance especially with his booming left boot. Trimble is better as a right winger, I think where his physicality is in demand more.

    Kidney will, hopefully, have drilled it into Zebo (and everyone else except Sexton and possibly Kearney) that the absolute last thing he should be doing is kicking the ball.


  • #249
    Fishooks12
    Closed Accounts Posts: 5,318 ✭✭✭Fishooks12


    totallegend wrote: »
    Kidney will, hopefully, have drilled it into Zebo (and everyone else except Sexton and possibly Kearney) that the absolute last thing he should be doing is kicking the ball and keeping it in play!

    FYP!


  • #250
    Riskymove
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 10,899 ✭✭✭✭Riskymove


    molloyjh wrote: »
    We're probably in agreement for the most part.

    yes I think so


  • #251
    GerM
    Closed Accounts Posts: 5,592 ✭✭✭GerM


    totallegend wrote: »
    Kidney will, hopefully, have drilled it into Zebo (and everyone else except Sexton and possibly Kearney) that the absolute last thing he should be doing is kicking the ball.

    Nothing wrong with kicking the ball when it's the right thing to do. If Zebo receives the ball in his own 22 with no Irish jersey near and Guildford closing in, I'd hope he booms one up the line into touch. Trimble had a ball put in behind him playing left wing against Italy in 2010. He should have launched it into the stand but wasn't comfortable, passed it to Kearney when the opposition were on top of us and we ended up conceding a try. Zebo offers a useful relieving option with his left boot that I've seen utilised in Munster on several occasions to great effect.

    Aimless kicking and good tactical kicking or sensible kicking are two very different things. We've seen a lot of aimless kicking to nowhere in the last 2 years.


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