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Commissioner Callinan resigns with immediate effect
Comments
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If you want someone to change a mindset you need to need to first tell them what you want them to change their mind about.
The most obvious thing that needs reform is the penalty points system and the issuing of tickets.
Ming should never have got off that ticket.0 -
People need to remember that the voice of the rank and file is muted. It's grand to come on here, let everyone know you're a serving member and attempt to defend our job to people who really don't want to listen. I've done it many times already, and still partake slightly when i believe that there are people who will generally listen and get our side of the story.
However, we are posting in extremely tight circumstances. Anything i say in here, regardless of anonymity, can be held against me. It would be very easy for someone high up in AGS to land Boards management with a warrant for my information, which will lead them directly back to me, and anything i have ever posted on here can be used against me for breaches of either the Data Protection Act, the Garda Siochana Code or the Official Secrets Act. We're not supposed to have an individual opinion. We're not allowed to speak ill of our organisation. Any statement from a member of AGS has to, in reality, be given the green light by the press office or someone of a higher rank. We are reminded of this, quite frequently it seems.
So even though we want to answer certain questions which are asked of us on here, and in other social media outlets, we cannot. It's why i've become somewhat quieter lately in my own attempt to salvage the name and reputation of the job i apparently live for. There are 2 words which scare me the most in this job. Conduct Unbecoming. Even when off duty, those two words can land me in a world of bother. Luckily, i have a group of friends outside the job who understand this, and they in turn have to change their reactions when i'm involved.
But should a job have that much power over someone? Shouldn't my personal actions outside the job have nothing to do with how I do my job? Should a throw-away comment made to a friend be used against me? It can, and it has to others, and while this is going off-topic, i'm hoping it shows why there are not more serving members on here defending the excellent job they, as an individual and as a member of AGS do. We are restricted by what we can say and who we can say it to. And everyone that knows a Garda wants that inside info, and think that the Garda is a stuck up prick when they won't tell you. Always leads me back to that lovely saying, which is more correct for members of AGS than most other jobs:
You're damned if you do, and you're damned if you don't.0 -
Potential-Monke wrote: »People need to remember that the voice of the rank and file is muted. It's grand to come on here, let everyone know you're a serving member and attempt to defend our job to people who really don't want to listen. I've done it many times already, and still partake slightly when i believe that there are people who will generally listen and get our side of the story.
However, we are posting in extremely tight circumstances. Anything i say in here, regardless of anonymity, can be held against me. It would be very easy for someone high up in AGS to land Boards management with a warrant for my information, which will lead them directly back to me, and anything i have ever posted on here can be used against me for breaches of either the Data Protection Act, the Garda Siochana Code or the Official Secrets Act. We're not supposed to have an individual opinion. We're not allowed to speak ill of our organisation. Any statement from a member of AGS has to, in reality, be given the green light by the press office or someone of a higher rank. We are reminded of this, quite frequently it seems.
So even though we want to answer certain questions which are asked of us on here, and in other social media outlets, we cannot. It's why i've become somewhat quieter lately in my own attempt to salvage the name and reputation of the job i apparently live for. There are 2 words which scare me the most in this job. Conduct Unbecoming. Even when off duty, those two words can land me in a world of bother. Luckily, i have a group of friends outside the job who understand this, and they in turn have to change their reactions when i'm involved.
But should a job have that much power over someone? Shouldn't my personal actions outside the job have nothing to do with how I do my job? Should a throw-away comment made to a friend be used against me? It can, and it has to others, and while this is going off-topic, i'm hoping it shows why there are not more serving members on here defending the excellent job they, as an individual and as a member of AGS do. We are restricted by what we can say and who we can say it to. And everyone that knows a Garda wants that inside info, and think that the Garda is a stuck up prick when they won't tell you. Always leads me back to that lovely saying, which is more correct for members of AGS than most other jobs:
You're damned if you do, and you're damned if you don't.
I can see your point, and should you ever find yourself in that situation i can suggest a defense although I`m not sure how much good it would do. Tell whoever your prosecuters are that your defense is that you spoke the truth and ask them are they pursuing the people who spinned to Paul Williams, Paul reynolds, RTE, and the media in general, with the same vigour.
As I said, may not do you much good personally, but isn`t there a strong case for whoever within the gardai were responsible for those spin stories, being prosecuted for breaches under at least one, if not all the acts or codes you mentioned?0 -
Dermot Illogical wrote: »I agree that Guerin didn't vindicate McCabe, but I'd be amazed if individual members of all ranks aren't found to have at the very least made mistakes. Having read the entire report, and I still can't believe I did that, I think there will be tough times ahead for some of those involved. I'd also be quite surprised if the good sergeant comes out of it smelling of roses as he appears to have been a major part of the problem.
I thought the report itself was very fair. As long as the resulting inquiry is equally fair I'll have no issue with it. I think it has the potential to do a lot of good.
My 2c.
I can't imagine the discipline will go beyond what has already been dished out. And legally I don't think it can anyway. Would it not be a double jepordy situation for the Gardaí involved?Indeed you didn`t say you disagreed with the tribunals finding, but then again you didn`t say that you disagreed with Callinans statement that be didn`t believe and would never believe Smithwick`s assessment from being faced by a closing of ranks, that gardai were more interested in minding each others backs than justice.
I don't think Smithwick had enough evidence to support his conclusions but neither would I be surprised if he was right.A bit disingenuine in your reading on Guerin I feel and McCabe being vindicated, in that McCabe`s point was that certain investigations were not carried out properly,and Guerin agreed. As to this being due to garda management, I`m open to correction here, but doesn`t garda management begin at sergeant level in each station?
But it doesn't mean that his complaints still won't have the same end result. And you are of course right, management begins at sergeant level, which was McCabes rank.Entitled to your opinion that no garda will be found to have done anything wrong, but in light of the penalty points debacle and from what the female taxi driver Mary Lynch assulted by Jerry Mc Grath had to say when interviewed by RTE, in these two areas alone, I wouldn`t be as confident as you
The Mary Lynch thing is a giant red herring as far as I can see. Her assailant was prosecuted and jailed. The fella got out on bail because of the existing bail laws, something Gardaí have also spoken out against.I don`t think you fully understand where I am coming from. Where I`m coming from is that if the apparent mindset within ags doesn`t change, then all the reforms in the world will make no difference.
A total opportunist, but a good nose for how the wind is blowing regarding public opinion as he showed with Callinan, Varadkar, has said the culture of nods winks and favours has to change.
A culture that has penalty points cancelled for insiders, a culture that has garda being investigated for collusion with a drug dealer, Kieran Boylan, and now the Ian Bailey case about to hit the courts and open another can of worms.
So where I`m coming from, and in my opinion the public in general, is an end to these sharp practices and a weeding out of the few bad apples by gardai in general.
Not a closing of ranks to the slightest criticism, and if these boards are anything to go by, a culture of right or wrong, he`s my brother regardless and I`ll defend him to the last
The Garda culture is what the people have made it. If the people look for change the Garda culture will change, as it has always done. Your problem is you work with outdated information so your assessment of the Garda culture is based on incidents which are at least years old.0 -
I don`t think you fully understand where I am coming from. Where I`m coming from is that if the apparent mindset within ags doesn`t change, then all the reforms in the world will make no difference.
A total opportunist, but a good nose for how the wind is blowing regarding public opinion as he showed with Callinan, Varadkar, has said the culture of nods winks and favours has to change.
A culture that has penalty points cancelled for insiders, a culture that has garda being investigated for collusion with a drug dealer, Kieran Boylan, and now the Ian Bailey case about to hit the courts and open another can of worms.
So where I`m coming from, and in my opinion the public in general, is an end to these sharp practices and a weeding out of the few bad apples by gardai in general.
Not a closing of ranks to the slightest criticism, and if these boards are anything to go by, a culture of right or wrong, he`s my brother regardless and I`ll defend him to the last
I honestly do see where your coming from, I just see no evidence of it being correct. The penalty points system has already been reformed. The public accounts commuter has accepted this as have the garda inspectorate and john Wilson pointed to the lack of penalty point cancellations as proof of historic misconduct. An internal audit was conducted and a commissioners report completed as well as serving members disciplined.
There was no, not even one objection to these reforms within AGS. None.
You make the mistake of thinking that all garda have the same opinions and attitudes. We don't. Ags is made up of individuals and the culture as you call it is as varied and changeable as the people who make it up. Reform and constructive criticism is healthy and welcomed by most gardai, to be honest we tend to be our own biggest critics.
However uninformed critisism is pointless. What we need is realistic practical solutions to ongoing problems. No one and no organisation is perfect or error free. AGS needs the publics help and every garda I know is open to change. Our only point is for once make them the right ones.
And just one quick addition its not a culture that's being investigated on relation to boylan or the penalty points issued, its the actions of individuals. Thatis how the law works. Its holds individuals to account for their actions nit their perceived culture.0 -
Little CuChulainn wrote: »I can't imagine the discipline will go beyond what has already been dished out. And legally I don't think it can anyway. Would it not be a double jepordy situation for the Gardaí involved?
I don't think Smithwick had enough evidence to support his conclusions but neither would I be surprised if he was right.
But it doesn't mean that his complaints still won't have the same end result. And you are of course right, management begins at sergeant level, which was McCabes rank.
The Mary Lynch thing is a giant red herring as far as I can see. Her assailant was prosecuted and jailed. The fella got out on bail because of the existing bail laws, something Gardaí have also spoken out against.
The Garda culture is what the people have made it. If the people look for change the Garda culture will change, as it has always done. Your problem is you work with outdated information so your assessment of the Garda culture is based on incidents which are at least years old.
If data was accessed from pulse illegally then I don`t see internal discipline would be a cause for double jeopardy. That would be a breach of data protection and grounds for prosecution wouldn`t it?
If you would not be surprisesd if Smithwicks was right, then isn`t there something inherently wrong if members of the force are more concerned with covering each others backs than truth?
My point about managemnt is that it`s not just some faceless autocrats sitting above in the Phoenix Park. It starts with the sergeant working with the rank and file day in day out in the local station. So maybe time for a bottom up approach from the rank and file re managment.
I don`t know if you heard the Mary Lynch interview, but from what she said about how her complaint was dealt with, and being told by a garda that she wasn`t informed about the case coming before the courts, (thus not being able to make a witness impact statement that could have possibly negated bail), that the decision to do that was Mc Cabe`s. Something she said she later found to be untrue. So I wouldn`t be too sure on the red herring aspect.
If garda culture is what the public made it, then i feel it`s pretty clear at this stage it is a culture they want to change. You may feel that there have been changes and lessons learned from the past, but can you blame people for looking at what is going on in the Ian Bailey case that`s about to hit the courts, and the whole debacle of the Mc Brearty case that resulted in Morris and feel that nothing has been learned?0 -
If data was accessed from pulse illegally then I don`t see internal discipline would be a cause for double jeopardy. That would be a breach of data protection and grounds for prosecution wouldn`t it?
What are you talking about?If you would not be surprisesd if Smithwicks was right, then isn`t there something inherently wrong if members of the force are more concerned with covering each others backs than truth?
Members of the force from a quarter of a century ago.My point about managemnt is that it`s not just some faceless autocrats sitting above in the Phoenix Park. It starts with the sergeant working with the rank and file day in day out in the local station. So maybe time for a bottom up approach from the rank and file re managment.
The rank and file have to follow the rules set by management and the legislation set by government. There is no choice in this. If you want them to change you need to change the rules first.I don`t know if you heard the Mary Lynch interview, but from what she said about how her complaint was dealt with, and being told by a garda that she wasn`t informed about the case coming before the courts, (thus not being able to make a witness impact statement that could have possibly negated bail), that the decision to do that was Mc Cabe`s. Something she said she later found to be untrue. So I wouldn`t be too sure on the red herring aspect.
And as Guerin said, it was perfectly normal for someone to be told not to attend when a case was up for mention. And it's not normal for victim impact statements to be given in district court. I've never seen it in my time.If garda culture is what the public made it, then i feel it`s pretty clear at this stage it is a culture they want to change. You may feel that there have been changes and lessons learned from the past, but can you blame people for looking at what is going on in the Ian Bailey case that`s about to hit the courts, and the whole debacle of the Mc Brearty case that resulted in Morris and feel that nothing has been learned?
Yes I can blame them for using outdated information. If you want to change something you should at least be able to know for sure what you are changing and what you want to change it to. You might need to go further than the local rag to find this out.0 -
underachieved wrote: »I honestly do see where your coming from, I just see no evidence of it being correct. The penalty points system has already been reformed. The public accounts commuter has accepted this as have the garda inspectorate and john Wilson pointed to the lack of penalty point cancellations as proof of historic misconduct. An internal audit was conducted and a commissioners report completed as well as serving members disciplined.
There was no, not even one objection to these reforms within AGS. None.
You make the mistake of thinking that all garda have the same opinions and attitudes. We don't. Ags is made up of individuals and the culture as you call it is as varied and changeable as the people who make it up. Reform and constructive criticism is healthy and welcomed by most gardai, to be honest we tend to be our own biggest critics.
However uninformed critisism is pointless. What we need is realistic practical solutions to ongoing problems. No one and no organisation is perfect or error free. AGS needs the publics help and every garda I know is open to change. Our only point is for once make them the right ones.
And just one quick addition its not a culture that's being investigated on relation to boylan or the penalty points issued, its the actions of individuals. Thatis how the law works. Its holds individuals to account for their actions nit their perceived culture.
The fact that the penalty points system has been reformed isn`t really the point as far as the general public are concerned. It`s that it didn`t happen because of some computer glitc .It happened because there were nods and winks and the favoured got preferential treatment, and the culture of nods winks and preferential treatment they are sick and tired off.
They are looking at the penalty points, Boylan, and now Bailey and then looking at the treatment that McCabe and Wilson got from their own colleagues for trying to highlight mistakes internally. Can you blame them for thinking there is something rotten at the core?
Personally I have no problem recognising that Boylan and the Bailey cases are the doings of rogue individuals, (the penalty points is a different matter as I think I`ve made clear above), but in reality, the only people who can oust these rogue individuals are gardai themselves before they blow up into another mess like these cases have become.
Unfortunately the treatment of McCabe and Wilson have recieved from all ranks doesn`t auger well for that to happen0 -
Little CuChulainn wrote: »What are you talking about?
Members of the force from a quarter of a century ago.
The rank and file have to follow the rules set by management and the legislation set by government. There is no choice in this. If you want them to change you need to change the rules first.
And as Guerin said, it was perfectly normal for someone to be told not to attend when a case was up for mention. And it's not normal for victim impact statements to be given in district court. I've never seen it in my time.
Yes I can blame them for using outdated information. If you want to change something you should at least be able to know for sure what you are changing and what you want to change it to. You might need to go further than the local rag to find this out.
Ok, I`ll now let you ramble off and live happly in your own little world. I wish you the best and hope the winds of change that are coming don`t blow in your direction.0 -
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Ok, I`ll now let you ramble off and live happly in your own little world. I wish you the best and hope the winds of change that are coming don`t blow in your direction.
From the sounds of it you won't learn of them for another 25 years anyway. Try not to make too many judgements before then.0 -
The fact that the penalty points system has been reformed isn`t really the point as far as the general public are concerned. It`s that it didn`t happen because of some computer glitc .It happened because there were nods and winks and the favoured got preferential treatment, and the culture of nods winks and preferential treatment they are sick and tired off.
They are looking at the penalty points, Boylan, and now Bailey and then looking at the treatment that McCabe and Wilson got from their own colleagues for trying to highlight mistakes internally. Can you blame them for thinking there is something rotten at the core?
Personally I have no problem recognising that Boylan and the Bailey cases are the doings of rogue individuals, (the penalty points is a different matter as I think I`ve made clear above), but in reality, the only people who can oust these rogue individuals are gardai themselves before they blow up into another mess like these cases have become.
Unfortunately the treatment of McCabe and Wilson have recieved from all ranks doesn`t auger well for that to happen
Think we're just going over the same ground here my friend.
1. The penalty points issue was a disaster and is a prime example of a idiots guide to reform. Who in their right mind brought in legislation allowing individual members of a police force of a certain rank to cancel tickets?? Those people are idiots. Short sighted and know nothing of policing.
1b. What absolute clowns decided that the cancelling officer did not have to make exacting and immaculate records to state the reasons for the cancellation BEFORE it could be cancelled so these could be reviewed.
Because of 1b even the most legitimate cancellations are now open to suspicion.
Theses people you will find are not AGS. They somehow forgot that gardai are human and can be just as stupid and foolish as anyone.
2. The bailey and boylan cases are both ongoing and the guilt and or innocence of anyone involved in any way with those cases is undecided. Except bailey of course.
3. Mary lynch i am sorry to say is wrong. It is terrible that she was a victim of crime but that is not ags fault. Bad people are a product of society not the police
The fact the offender went guilty in this case unexpectidly is not the ags fault. If its the case that every witness/injured party goes to court every day, the system collapses and the ip has absolutely no bearing on bail in a case like that. None good bad or indifferent. No say, no input, none. Thats the system
I will disagree with you. The entire point of all this is reform. If it isn't then none of this matters and the same problems from 89 smithick and the 90s morris and bailey reoccur. Reform and modernisation is good for AGS. And based on AGS track record both will be accepted with open arms. All members of AGS want is practical solutions that make sense so we can provide a better service.
Headlines and empty promises are politicians playground not policemen. Hopefully you and other people will start to listen to us instead of the journos. I'd point you to the gra and agsi congress reports as a good place to start learning about the actual things needed to reform the police.
1977 is a long time waiting for proper reform and an independent policing board.
Just a quick edit I have only heard one side of the story with regards how McCabe and Wilson were treated by their immediate colleagues and its theres. In the interests of fairness to everyone I won't comment on it.0 -
Little CuChulainn wrote: »From the sounds of it you won't learn of them for another 25 years anyway. Try not to make too many judgements before then.
I wouldn`t be to sure about that. I`ve a feeling we`re all due to learn a lot more much sooner than that. I hope whats coming down the road gives you the validation for all your beliefs, because being on a public forum and stating you didn`t give a toss what the public thinks, it would appear that validation is what you are looking for from here and not honest debate.
Bye Bye now and take care.0 -
I wouldn`t be to sure about that. I`ve a feeling we`re all due to learn a lot more much sooner than that. I hope whats coming down the road gives you the validation for all your beliefs, because being on a public forum and stating you didn`t give a toss what the public thinks, it would appear that validation is what you are looking for from here and not honest debate.
Bye Bye now and take care.
I have debated every point you have raised and explained myself thoroughly with reference to specific examples. If you want to go on believing media spin over fact then you are a prime example of why I shouldn't care what the general public thinks.0 -
underachieved wrote: »Think we're just going over the same ground here my friend.
1. The penalty points issue was a disaster and is a prime example of a idiots guide to reform. Who in their right mind brought in legislation allowing individual members of a police force of a certain rank to cancel tickets?? Those people are idiots. Short sighted and know nothing of policing.
1b. What absolute clowns decided that the cancelling officer did not have to make exacting and immaculate records to state the reasons for the cancellation BEFORE it could be cancelled so these could be reviewed.
Because of 1b even the most legitimate cancellations are now open to suspicion.
Theses people you will find are not AGS. They somehow forgot that gardai are human and can be just as stupid and foolish as anyone.
2. The bailey and boylan cases are both ongoing and the guilt and or innocence of anyone involved in any way with those cases is undecided. Except bailey of course.
3. Mary lynch i am sorry to say is wrong. It is terrible that she was a victim of crime but that is not ags fault. Bad people are a product of society not the police
The fact the offender went guilty in this case unexpectidly is not the ags fault. If its the case that every witness/injured party goes to court every day, the system collapses and the ip has absolutely no bearing on bail in a case like that. None good bad or indifferent. No say, no input, none. Thats the system
I will disagree with you. The entire point of all this is reform. If it isn't then none of this matters and the same problems from 89 smithick and the 90s morris and bailey reoccur. Reform and modernisation is good for AGS. And based on AGS track record both will be accepted with open arms. All members of AGS want is practical solutions that make sense so we can provide a better service.
Headlines and empty promises are politicians playground not policemen. Hopefully you and other people will start to listen to us instead of the journos. I'd point you to the gra and agsi congress reports as a good place to start learning about the actual things needed to reform the police.
1977 is a long time waiting for proper reform and an independent policing board.
Just a quick edit I have only heard one side of the story with regards how McCabe and Wilson were treated by their immediate colleagues and its theres. In the interests of fairness to everyone I won't comment on it.
I agree that we are going around in circles here. You have your opinion which you have clearly stated as to what needs to change, as I have hopefully stated mine. We could debate this until the cows come home, but i cannot see it making a lot of difference, so I`ll wish you well and hope for everyones sake that once the present debacles are sorted real lessons will be learned.
Good luck and mind yourself out there.0 -
Interesting article in today's Irish Indo regarding results of a Public poll on whether the new AGS Commissioner should be recruited from outside AGS.
http://www.independent.ie/irish-news/news/twothirds-want-next-garda-chief-from-outside-force-30340964.html
I hope the powers that be go with an external candidate.0 -
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Interesting article in today's Irish Indo regarding results of a Public poll on whether the new AGS Commissioner should be recruited from outside AGS.
http://www.independent.ie/irish-news/news/twothirds-want-next-garda-chief-from-outside-force-30340964.html
I hope the powers that be go with an external candidate.
I believe that there is a lot interest in the post from officers in the Zimbabwean police.0
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