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Commissioner Callinan resigns with immediate effect
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There is an attitudinal problem within the force and until that changes there is little chance of real change . And this goes all the way down from the like of Callinan with his repeated ''my force'' right down to the rank and file them and us attitude .
The defensiveness on here is just unreal.
This is merely opinion. It is wrong by the way. Not one reform asked of AGS by legislators has ever in the history of the state been refused. No legislation has not been obeyed and no ministerial order ignored. Ever.
The fact that the wrong reforms have been made is not AGS fault0 -
There is an attitudinal problem within the force and until that changes there is little chance of real change . And this goes all the way down from the like of Callinan with his repeated ''my force'' right down to the rank and file them and us attitude .
The defensiveness on here is just unreal.
I simply asked you to outline a recommendation that has been made in any of the reports or enquiries you know of that hasn't been followed through with and you haven't done that. "Change the attitude" is about as useful a suggestion as "stop the crime".0 -
underachieved wrote: »Then very simply tell me 1 reform to make, your reasons for it and how to implement it. Then you begin to suggest solutions and become part of the solution instead of just bashing and making obviously ignorant judgements quoting reports you haven't read.
Then we can have a respectful discussion about your idea, and the future of ags. Gardai have been suggesting root and branch change since the mid 1970s but no one has listened
No , that is not how it works - in the same way if you see a report telling you that their are concerns say over air safety you don't have to come up with suggestions , as a taxpayer you are paying others to do that.
But what would concern you is that if those in that sector didn't seem to take the concerns on board .0 -
Little CuChulainn wrote: »You can live in the past all you want.
I`m don`t believe in living in the past, but I am a believer that lessons should be learned from the past.
If, and I feel from your evasive reply to my question, it`s fair to assume you are in agreement with Callinan, then learning from the past is a concept alien to you.
You may talk all you want about reform, but it`s really redundant if you haven`t the ability or the wish to understand that concept.0 -
No , that is not how it works - in the same way if you see a report telling you that their are concerns say over air safety you don't have to come up with suggestions , as a taxpayer you are paying others to do that.
But what would concern you is that if those in that sector didn't seem to take the concerns on board .
No you are wrong. You are a citizen of this country. It is you that we serve. You are more than a tax payer and it is your responsibility to ensure that your country is run correctly. The putting your head in the sand approach to citizenship is wrong. You have rights and responsibilities. I suggest you either stand up and be counted or return to your sand box of ignorance0 -
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I`m don`t believe in living in the past, but I am a believer that lessons should be learned from the past.
If, and I feel from your evasive reply to my question, it`s fair to assume you are in agreement with Callinan, then learning from the past is a concept alien to you.
You may talk all you want about reform, but it`s really redundant if you haven`t the ability or the wish to understand that concept.
Again I only ask you to name one reform of AGS that has not been complied with in the history of this state.
Sorry charlie I thought I was replying to Marion there. My question is to you0 -
underachieved wrote: »No you are wrong. You are a citizen of this country. It is you that we serve. You are more than a tax payer and it is your responsibility to ensure that your country is run correctly. The putting your head in the sand approach to citizenship is wrong. You have rights and responsibilities. I suggest you either stand up and be counted or return to your sand box of ignorance
What a clueless post !0 -
I`m don`t believe in living in the past, but I am a believer that lessons should be learned from the past.
If, and I feel from your evasive reply to my question, it`s fair to assume you are in agreement with Callinan, then learning from the past is a concept alien to you.
You may talk all you want about reform, but it`s really redundant if you haven`t the ability or the wish to understand that concept.
Then I will make the same request of you, outline a recommendation that has been made in any of the reports or enquiries you know of that hasn't been followed through with.0 -
Little CuChulainn wrote: »Then I will make the same request of you, outline a recommendation that has been made in any of the reports or enquiries you know of that hasn't been followed through with.
You are asking the wrong questions0 -
What a clueless post !
Sandbox it is. Your opinion is now irrelevant to me in my private capcity. I will still do my duty to you however and do my best to vindicate your human rights with the tools and legislation provided to me.
Fortunately like most of the gardai in this country I still want to see this nation succeed and society progress together. We could use your support, ideas and educated critisism as much as your taxes. It is unfortunate however that you believe your taxes are enough0 -
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You are asking the wrong questions
I presume it's because you cannot answer them. There is no resistance to change in the Gardaí. There has always been robust adaptation of recommendations from enquiries for improving the force. What the Guerin report has shown is that Gardaí have not gotten the support they needed from politicians, courts and management.0 -
underachieved wrote: »Sandbox it is. Your opinion is now irrelevant to me in my private capcity. I will still do my duty to you however and do my best to vindicate your human rights with the tools and legislation provided to me.
Fortunately like most of the gardai in this country I still want to see this nation succeed and society progress together. We could use your support, ideas and educated critisism as much as your taxes. It is unfortunate however that you believe your taxes are enough
I would remind you that you are not the judge and jury, so less of this pompous self serving guff and more focus on the real issues.0 -
Little CuChulainn wrote: »I presume it's because you cannot answer them. There is no resistance to change in the Gardaí. There has always been robust adaptation of recommendations from enquiries for improving the force. What the Guerin report has shown is that Gardaí have not gotten the support they needed from politicians, courts and management.
Again you are missing the point , before anything changes attitudes within the force must change . Otherwise it is a waste of time .0 -
Little CuChulainn wrote: »Then I will make the same request of you, outline a recommendation that has been made in any of the reports or enquiries you know of that hasn't been followed through with.
From the outset my point has been that what is needed is a change in mindset from the gardai. From your agreement with Callinans quote that he did not and would never accept the findings of Smithwicks, that is a mindset that with you at least is well entrenched and if held by many others in the force, doesn`t bode well for the force in the future because the public have had enough and that breeze you may feel on your neck is the wind of change ablowing.
Just a minor point, that probably doesn`t mean to much to you or has even registered with you, but in all your banging on about minutea in Geurin, maybe you missed that Geurin was set up to look into McCabe`s allegations and his findings were that there was a need for a full inquiry. A finding that vindicated McCabe, and leaves the public looking at yet another inquiry involving practices within the gardai. That along with the resignation of a confidental informant, a Garda Commissioner and a minister for justice, is it any wonder that the public are looking on the gardai as a force out of control.0 -
I would remind you that you are not the judge and jury, so less of this pompous self serving guff and more focus on the real issues.
To be fair I stated my personal opinion based on your lack of knowledge on the subject of police reform in this country and as such I am perfectly entitled to it.
Your contribution so far has not been constructive in any way. I've asked you for constuctive suggestions and you stated you pay your taxes so that others will do the thinking for you. You have every right to post your opinions but I have every right to disagree and state where your opinions are ignorant of the facts, the reforms process, the history of reform within ags and the future reforms required.
I'm asking you to contribute constructively suggestions for future reform. You don't have to answer me but it shows your opinions for the hollow politicized posturing they are and not the constructive practical debate with the public ags and its members need0 -
From the outset my point has been that what is needed is a change in mindset from the gardai. From your agreement with Callinans quote that he did not and would never accept the findings of Smithwicks, that is a mindset that with you at least is well entrenched and if held by many others in the force, doesn`t bode well for the force in the future because the public have had enough and that breeze you may feel on your neck is the wind of change ablowing.
Just a minor point, that probably doesn`t mean to much to you or has even registered with you, but in all your banging on about minutea in Geurin, maybe you missed that Geurin was set up to look into McCabe`s allegations and his findings were that there was a need for a full inquiry. A finding that vindicated McCabe, and leaves the public looking at yet another inquiry involving practices within the gardai. That along with the resignation of a confidental informant, a Garda Commissioner and a minister for justice, is it any wonder that the public are looking on the gardai as a force out of control.
Ok I can fully see where you are coming from but i have 2 problems with it.
1. The commisioner is not ags. He was a member of it and expressed his opposition to smithicks findings. This is his right in a constitutional democracy. If the legislators of the day wish to make changes on the basis of any inquiry they will be made. Bar none. The attitude of one commissioner to one inquiry does not tarnish ags's history of implementing every reform asked of it in the history of the state. Every one.
The fact the wrong reforms were asked for says more to the self serving attitudes and short sightedness of our politicians than anything else
2. The guerin report says there should be a commision of inquiry. Let's have it. You will not find any rank and file members opposed to this. But mc cabe himself has questions to answer about his apparent abdication of his supervisory role of junior gardai and his lack of knowledge of the law and court proceedures.
What I want to discuss is practical reforms that can be made to improve the service ags provides. Gardai have been calling for many of these reforms for years but no one was listening ie an independant policing board. I hope concerned citizens such as yourself will now help us achieve these0 -
Again you are missing the point , before anything changes attitudes within the force must change . Otherwise it is a waste of time .
But your assessment of attitudes is based on the Morris and Smithwick tribunals which analysed Garda issues over two decades ago.From the outset my point has been that what is needed is a change in mindset from the gardai. From your agreement with Callinans quote that he did not and would never accept the findings of Smithwicks, that is a mindset that with you at least is well entrenched and if held by many others in the force, doesn`t bode well for the force in the future because the public have had enough and that breeze you may feel on your neck is the wind of change ablowing.
When did I say I disagree with the tribunals findings? I may find them lacking in evidential basis but that doesn't mean I think they are right or wrong.Just a minor point, that probably doesn`t mean to much to you or has even registered with you, but in all your banging on about minutea in Geurin, maybe you missed that Geurin was set up to look into McCabe`s allegations and his findings were that there was a need for a full inquiry. A finding that vindicated McCabe, and leaves the public looking at yet another inquiry involving practices within the gardai. That along with the resignation of a confidental informant, a Garda Commissioner and a minister for justice, is it any wonder that the public are looking on the gardai as a force out of control.
Guerin did not vindicate McCabe, his decision was simply that the allegations were worthy of further investigation. I'd be surprised if any individual Garda is found to have done anything wrong in the course of the investigations highlighted by McCabe. The real issue in the Guerin report was wether McCabes allegations were given proper investigation by Garda management and the Minister for Justice.0 -
Little CuChulainn wrote: »Guerin did not vindicate McCabe, his decision was simply that the allegations were worthy of further investigation. I'd be surprised if any individual Garda is found to have done anything wrong in the course of the investigations highlighted by McCabe. The real issue in the Guerin report was wether McCabes allegations were given proper investigation by Garda management and the Minister for Justice.
I agree that Guerin didn't vindicate McCabe, but I'd be amazed if individual members of all ranks aren't found to have at the very least made mistakes. Having read the entire report, and I still can't believe I did that, I think there will be tough times ahead for some of those involved. I'd also be quite surprised if the good sergeant comes out of it smelling of roses as he appears to have been a major part of the problem.
I thought the report itself was very fair. As long as the resulting inquiry is equally fair I'll have no issue with it. I think it has the potential to do a lot of good.
My 2c.0 -
When did I say I disagree with the tribunals findings? I may find them lacking in evidential basis but that doesn't mean I think they are right or wrong.
Guerin did not vindicate McCabe, his decision was simply that the allegations were worthy of further investigation. I'd be surprised if any individual Garda is found to have done anything wrong in the course of the investigations highlighted by McCabe. The real issue in the Guerin report was wether McCabes allegations were given proper investigation by Garda management and the Minister for Justice.[/QUOTE]
Indeed you didn`t say you disagreed with the tribunals finding, but then again you didn`t say that you disagreed with Callinans statement that be didn`t believe and would never believe Smithwick`s assessment from being faced by a closing of ranks, that gardai were more interested in minding each others backs than justice.
A bit disingenuine in your reading on Guerin I feel and McCabe being vindicated, in that McCabe`s point was that certain investigations were not carried out properly,and Guerin agreed. As to this being due to garda management, I`m open to correction here, but doesn`t garda management begin at sergeant level in each station?
Entitled to your opinion that no garda will be found to have done anything wrong, but in light of the penalty points debacle and from what the female taxi driver Mary Lynch assulted by Jerry Mc Grath had to say when interviewed by RTE, in these two areas alone, I wouldn`t be as confident as you0 -
underachieved wrote: »Ok I can fully see where you are coming from but i have 2 problems with it.
1. The commisioner is not ags. He was a member of it and expressed his opposition to smithicks findings. This is his right in a constitutional democracy. If the legislators of the day wish to make changes on the basis of any inquiry they will be made. Bar none. The attitude of one commissioner to one inquiry does not tarnish ags's history of implementing every reform asked of it in the history of the state. Every one.
The fact the wrong reforms were asked for says more to the self serving attitudes and short sightedness of our politicians than anything else
2. The guerin report says there should be a commision of inquiry. Let's have it. You will not find any rank and file members opposed to this. But mc cabe himself has questions to answer about his apparent abdication of his supervisory role of junior gardai and his lack of knowledge of the law and court proceedures.
What I want to discuss is practical reforms that can be made to improve the service ags provides. Gardai have been calling for many of these reforms for years but no one was listening ie an independant policing board. I hope concerned citizens such as yourself will now help us achieve these
I don`t think you fully understand where I am coming from. Where I`m coming from is that if the apparent mindset within ags doesn`t change, then all the reforms in the world will make no difference.
A total opportunist, but a good nose for how the wind is blowing regarding public opinion as he showed with Callinan, Varadkar, has said the culture of nods winks and favours has to change.
A culture that has penalty points cancelled for insiders, a culture that has garda being investigated for collusion with a drug dealer, Kieran Boylan, and now the Ian Bailey case about to hit the courts and open another can of worms.
So where I`m coming from, and in my opinion the public in general, is an end to these sharp practices and a weeding out of the few bad apples by gardai in general.
Not a closing of ranks to the slightest criticism, and if these boards are anything to go by, a culture of right or wrong, he`s my brother regardless and I`ll defend him to the last0 -
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If you want someone to change a mindset you need to need to first tell them what you want them to change their mind about.
The most obvious thing that needs reform is the penalty points system and the issuing of tickets.
Ming should never have got off that ticket.0 -
People need to remember that the voice of the rank and file is muted. It's grand to come on here, let everyone know you're a serving member and attempt to defend our job to people who really don't want to listen. I've done it many times already, and still partake slightly when i believe that there are people who will generally listen and get our side of the story.
However, we are posting in extremely tight circumstances. Anything i say in here, regardless of anonymity, can be held against me. It would be very easy for someone high up in AGS to land Boards management with a warrant for my information, which will lead them directly back to me, and anything i have ever posted on here can be used against me for breaches of either the Data Protection Act, the Garda Siochana Code or the Official Secrets Act. We're not supposed to have an individual opinion. We're not allowed to speak ill of our organisation. Any statement from a member of AGS has to, in reality, be given the green light by the press office or someone of a higher rank. We are reminded of this, quite frequently it seems.
So even though we want to answer certain questions which are asked of us on here, and in other social media outlets, we cannot. It's why i've become somewhat quieter lately in my own attempt to salvage the name and reputation of the job i apparently live for. There are 2 words which scare me the most in this job. Conduct Unbecoming. Even when off duty, those two words can land me in a world of bother. Luckily, i have a group of friends outside the job who understand this, and they in turn have to change their reactions when i'm involved.
But should a job have that much power over someone? Shouldn't my personal actions outside the job have nothing to do with how I do my job? Should a throw-away comment made to a friend be used against me? It can, and it has to others, and while this is going off-topic, i'm hoping it shows why there are not more serving members on here defending the excellent job they, as an individual and as a member of AGS do. We are restricted by what we can say and who we can say it to. And everyone that knows a Garda wants that inside info, and think that the Garda is a stuck up prick when they won't tell you. Always leads me back to that lovely saying, which is more correct for members of AGS than most other jobs:
You're damned if you do, and you're damned if you don't.0 -
Potential-Monke wrote: »People need to remember that the voice of the rank and file is muted. It's grand to come on here, let everyone know you're a serving member and attempt to defend our job to people who really don't want to listen. I've done it many times already, and still partake slightly when i believe that there are people who will generally listen and get our side of the story.
However, we are posting in extremely tight circumstances. Anything i say in here, regardless of anonymity, can be held against me. It would be very easy for someone high up in AGS to land Boards management with a warrant for my information, which will lead them directly back to me, and anything i have ever posted on here can be used against me for breaches of either the Data Protection Act, the Garda Siochana Code or the Official Secrets Act. We're not supposed to have an individual opinion. We're not allowed to speak ill of our organisation. Any statement from a member of AGS has to, in reality, be given the green light by the press office or someone of a higher rank. We are reminded of this, quite frequently it seems.
So even though we want to answer certain questions which are asked of us on here, and in other social media outlets, we cannot. It's why i've become somewhat quieter lately in my own attempt to salvage the name and reputation of the job i apparently live for. There are 2 words which scare me the most in this job. Conduct Unbecoming. Even when off duty, those two words can land me in a world of bother. Luckily, i have a group of friends outside the job who understand this, and they in turn have to change their reactions when i'm involved.
But should a job have that much power over someone? Shouldn't my personal actions outside the job have nothing to do with how I do my job? Should a throw-away comment made to a friend be used against me? It can, and it has to others, and while this is going off-topic, i'm hoping it shows why there are not more serving members on here defending the excellent job they, as an individual and as a member of AGS do. We are restricted by what we can say and who we can say it to. And everyone that knows a Garda wants that inside info, and think that the Garda is a stuck up prick when they won't tell you. Always leads me back to that lovely saying, which is more correct for members of AGS than most other jobs:
You're damned if you do, and you're damned if you don't.
I can see your point, and should you ever find yourself in that situation i can suggest a defense although I`m not sure how much good it would do. Tell whoever your prosecuters are that your defense is that you spoke the truth and ask them are they pursuing the people who spinned to Paul Williams, Paul reynolds, RTE, and the media in general, with the same vigour.
As I said, may not do you much good personally, but isn`t there a strong case for whoever within the gardai were responsible for those spin stories, being prosecuted for breaches under at least one, if not all the acts or codes you mentioned?0 -
Dermot Illogical wrote: »I agree that Guerin didn't vindicate McCabe, but I'd be amazed if individual members of all ranks aren't found to have at the very least made mistakes. Having read the entire report, and I still can't believe I did that, I think there will be tough times ahead for some of those involved. I'd also be quite surprised if the good sergeant comes out of it smelling of roses as he appears to have been a major part of the problem.
I thought the report itself was very fair. As long as the resulting inquiry is equally fair I'll have no issue with it. I think it has the potential to do a lot of good.
My 2c.
I can't imagine the discipline will go beyond what has already been dished out. And legally I don't think it can anyway. Would it not be a double jepordy situation for the Gardaí involved?Indeed you didn`t say you disagreed with the tribunals finding, but then again you didn`t say that you disagreed with Callinans statement that be didn`t believe and would never believe Smithwick`s assessment from being faced by a closing of ranks, that gardai were more interested in minding each others backs than justice.
I don't think Smithwick had enough evidence to support his conclusions but neither would I be surprised if he was right.A bit disingenuine in your reading on Guerin I feel and McCabe being vindicated, in that McCabe`s point was that certain investigations were not carried out properly,and Guerin agreed. As to this being due to garda management, I`m open to correction here, but doesn`t garda management begin at sergeant level in each station?
But it doesn't mean that his complaints still won't have the same end result. And you are of course right, management begins at sergeant level, which was McCabes rank.Entitled to your opinion that no garda will be found to have done anything wrong, but in light of the penalty points debacle and from what the female taxi driver Mary Lynch assulted by Jerry Mc Grath had to say when interviewed by RTE, in these two areas alone, I wouldn`t be as confident as you
The Mary Lynch thing is a giant red herring as far as I can see. Her assailant was prosecuted and jailed. The fella got out on bail because of the existing bail laws, something Gardaí have also spoken out against.I don`t think you fully understand where I am coming from. Where I`m coming from is that if the apparent mindset within ags doesn`t change, then all the reforms in the world will make no difference.
A total opportunist, but a good nose for how the wind is blowing regarding public opinion as he showed with Callinan, Varadkar, has said the culture of nods winks and favours has to change.
A culture that has penalty points cancelled for insiders, a culture that has garda being investigated for collusion with a drug dealer, Kieran Boylan, and now the Ian Bailey case about to hit the courts and open another can of worms.
So where I`m coming from, and in my opinion the public in general, is an end to these sharp practices and a weeding out of the few bad apples by gardai in general.
Not a closing of ranks to the slightest criticism, and if these boards are anything to go by, a culture of right or wrong, he`s my brother regardless and I`ll defend him to the last
The Garda culture is what the people have made it. If the people look for change the Garda culture will change, as it has always done. Your problem is you work with outdated information so your assessment of the Garda culture is based on incidents which are at least years old.0 -
I don`t think you fully understand where I am coming from. Where I`m coming from is that if the apparent mindset within ags doesn`t change, then all the reforms in the world will make no difference.
A total opportunist, but a good nose for how the wind is blowing regarding public opinion as he showed with Callinan, Varadkar, has said the culture of nods winks and favours has to change.
A culture that has penalty points cancelled for insiders, a culture that has garda being investigated for collusion with a drug dealer, Kieran Boylan, and now the Ian Bailey case about to hit the courts and open another can of worms.
So where I`m coming from, and in my opinion the public in general, is an end to these sharp practices and a weeding out of the few bad apples by gardai in general.
Not a closing of ranks to the slightest criticism, and if these boards are anything to go by, a culture of right or wrong, he`s my brother regardless and I`ll defend him to the last
I honestly do see where your coming from, I just see no evidence of it being correct. The penalty points system has already been reformed. The public accounts commuter has accepted this as have the garda inspectorate and john Wilson pointed to the lack of penalty point cancellations as proof of historic misconduct. An internal audit was conducted and a commissioners report completed as well as serving members disciplined.
There was no, not even one objection to these reforms within AGS. None.
You make the mistake of thinking that all garda have the same opinions and attitudes. We don't. Ags is made up of individuals and the culture as you call it is as varied and changeable as the people who make it up. Reform and constructive criticism is healthy and welcomed by most gardai, to be honest we tend to be our own biggest critics.
However uninformed critisism is pointless. What we need is realistic practical solutions to ongoing problems. No one and no organisation is perfect or error free. AGS needs the publics help and every garda I know is open to change. Our only point is for once make them the right ones.
And just one quick addition its not a culture that's being investigated on relation to boylan or the penalty points issued, its the actions of individuals. Thatis how the law works. Its holds individuals to account for their actions nit their perceived culture.0 -
Little CuChulainn wrote: »I can't imagine the discipline will go beyond what has already been dished out. And legally I don't think it can anyway. Would it not be a double jepordy situation for the Gardaí involved?
I don't think Smithwick had enough evidence to support his conclusions but neither would I be surprised if he was right.
But it doesn't mean that his complaints still won't have the same end result. And you are of course right, management begins at sergeant level, which was McCabes rank.
The Mary Lynch thing is a giant red herring as far as I can see. Her assailant was prosecuted and jailed. The fella got out on bail because of the existing bail laws, something Gardaí have also spoken out against.
The Garda culture is what the people have made it. If the people look for change the Garda culture will change, as it has always done. Your problem is you work with outdated information so your assessment of the Garda culture is based on incidents which are at least years old.
If data was accessed from pulse illegally then I don`t see internal discipline would be a cause for double jeopardy. That would be a breach of data protection and grounds for prosecution wouldn`t it?
If you would not be surprisesd if Smithwicks was right, then isn`t there something inherently wrong if members of the force are more concerned with covering each others backs than truth?
My point about managemnt is that it`s not just some faceless autocrats sitting above in the Phoenix Park. It starts with the sergeant working with the rank and file day in day out in the local station. So maybe time for a bottom up approach from the rank and file re managment.
I don`t know if you heard the Mary Lynch interview, but from what she said about how her complaint was dealt with, and being told by a garda that she wasn`t informed about the case coming before the courts, (thus not being able to make a witness impact statement that could have possibly negated bail), that the decision to do that was Mc Cabe`s. Something she said she later found to be untrue. So I wouldn`t be too sure on the red herring aspect.
If garda culture is what the public made it, then i feel it`s pretty clear at this stage it is a culture they want to change. You may feel that there have been changes and lessons learned from the past, but can you blame people for looking at what is going on in the Ian Bailey case that`s about to hit the courts, and the whole debacle of the Mc Brearty case that resulted in Morris and feel that nothing has been learned?0 -
If data was accessed from pulse illegally then I don`t see internal discipline would be a cause for double jeopardy. That would be a breach of data protection and grounds for prosecution wouldn`t it?
What are you talking about?If you would not be surprisesd if Smithwicks was right, then isn`t there something inherently wrong if members of the force are more concerned with covering each others backs than truth?
Members of the force from a quarter of a century ago.My point about managemnt is that it`s not just some faceless autocrats sitting above in the Phoenix Park. It starts with the sergeant working with the rank and file day in day out in the local station. So maybe time for a bottom up approach from the rank and file re managment.
The rank and file have to follow the rules set by management and the legislation set by government. There is no choice in this. If you want them to change you need to change the rules first.I don`t know if you heard the Mary Lynch interview, but from what she said about how her complaint was dealt with, and being told by a garda that she wasn`t informed about the case coming before the courts, (thus not being able to make a witness impact statement that could have possibly negated bail), that the decision to do that was Mc Cabe`s. Something she said she later found to be untrue. So I wouldn`t be too sure on the red herring aspect.
And as Guerin said, it was perfectly normal for someone to be told not to attend when a case was up for mention. And it's not normal for victim impact statements to be given in district court. I've never seen it in my time.If garda culture is what the public made it, then i feel it`s pretty clear at this stage it is a culture they want to change. You may feel that there have been changes and lessons learned from the past, but can you blame people for looking at what is going on in the Ian Bailey case that`s about to hit the courts, and the whole debacle of the Mc Brearty case that resulted in Morris and feel that nothing has been learned?
Yes I can blame them for using outdated information. If you want to change something you should at least be able to know for sure what you are changing and what you want to change it to. You might need to go further than the local rag to find this out.0 -
underachieved wrote: »I honestly do see where your coming from, I just see no evidence of it being correct. The penalty points system has already been reformed. The public accounts commuter has accepted this as have the garda inspectorate and john Wilson pointed to the lack of penalty point cancellations as proof of historic misconduct. An internal audit was conducted and a commissioners report completed as well as serving members disciplined.
There was no, not even one objection to these reforms within AGS. None.
You make the mistake of thinking that all garda have the same opinions and attitudes. We don't. Ags is made up of individuals and the culture as you call it is as varied and changeable as the people who make it up. Reform and constructive criticism is healthy and welcomed by most gardai, to be honest we tend to be our own biggest critics.
However uninformed critisism is pointless. What we need is realistic practical solutions to ongoing problems. No one and no organisation is perfect or error free. AGS needs the publics help and every garda I know is open to change. Our only point is for once make them the right ones.
And just one quick addition its not a culture that's being investigated on relation to boylan or the penalty points issued, its the actions of individuals. Thatis how the law works. Its holds individuals to account for their actions nit their perceived culture.
The fact that the penalty points system has been reformed isn`t really the point as far as the general public are concerned. It`s that it didn`t happen because of some computer glitc .It happened because there were nods and winks and the favoured got preferential treatment, and the culture of nods winks and preferential treatment they are sick and tired off.
They are looking at the penalty points, Boylan, and now Bailey and then looking at the treatment that McCabe and Wilson got from their own colleagues for trying to highlight mistakes internally. Can you blame them for thinking there is something rotten at the core?
Personally I have no problem recognising that Boylan and the Bailey cases are the doings of rogue individuals, (the penalty points is a different matter as I think I`ve made clear above), but in reality, the only people who can oust these rogue individuals are gardai themselves before they blow up into another mess like these cases have become.
Unfortunately the treatment of McCabe and Wilson have recieved from all ranks doesn`t auger well for that to happen0 -
Little CuChulainn wrote: »What are you talking about?
Members of the force from a quarter of a century ago.
The rank and file have to follow the rules set by management and the legislation set by government. There is no choice in this. If you want them to change you need to change the rules first.
And as Guerin said, it was perfectly normal for someone to be told not to attend when a case was up for mention. And it's not normal for victim impact statements to be given in district court. I've never seen it in my time.
Yes I can blame them for using outdated information. If you want to change something you should at least be able to know for sure what you are changing and what you want to change it to. You might need to go further than the local rag to find this out.
Ok, I`ll now let you ramble off and live happly in your own little world. I wish you the best and hope the winds of change that are coming don`t blow in your direction.0 -
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Ok, I`ll now let you ramble off and live happly in your own little world. I wish you the best and hope the winds of change that are coming don`t blow in your direction.
From the sounds of it you won't learn of them for another 25 years anyway. Try not to make too many judgements before then.0
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