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IVCA race canceled this Sunday

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    #272
    greenmat
    Registered Users Posts: 581 ✭✭✭greenmat


    Surely by legally allowing Marshals to stop traffic for the short time it takes for a group to pass might solve all the problems. Make us all do a Marshals course endorsed by CI and the Garda. Put in place min requirement like lead cars with flashing lights, Radios at marshal points, plenty of warning signs etc. Every day your stopped in your car by Road workers, builders, council workers etc, they have no power to stop traffic yet they do it.

    Part of our problem is how local communities view us. Should a percentage of race fee's go to community groups within the area you race in. Might change their view of us if the local school is getting a new computer after each race etc etc.


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    #273
    couerdelion
    Registered Users Posts: 2,910 ✭✭✭couerdelion


    Not sureif this has been mentioned previously but British Cycling seems to be experiencing similar problems

    http://www.britishcycling.org.uk/campaigning/article/Keep-Racing-on-the-Roads-Home

    (not sure when the article is from or if anything has been implemented from it)


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    #274
    morana
    Registered Users Posts: 2,097 ✭✭✭morana


    Beasty wrote: »
    They would be covered for any claims under the public liability insurance for example, which may never go anywhere near a court. Equally though they could be prosecuted by the Gardai for obstructing traffic of a whole host of other "statutory" offences. They may be covered for any fine, and it's very unlikely to be a criminal prosecution, but they could still end up with some kind of civil prosecution "record" which could count against them (sometimes it can affect an ability to get certain jobs for example)

    Yeah thats what I meant :) the insurers would also pay the costs of any case I guess.


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    #275
    Beasty
    Administrators, Social & Fun Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 75,594 Admin ✭✭✭✭✭Beasty


    couerdelion wrote: »
    Not sureif this has been mentioned previously but British Cycling seems to be experiencing similar problems

    http://www.britishcycling.org.uk/campaigning/article/Keep-Racing-on-the-Roads-Home

    (not sure when the article is from or if anything has been implemented from it)
    The UK has though introduced laws allowing certain motorcycle marshals to stop/manage traffic - something like that would certainly relieve some of the tensions over here


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    #276
    Chips Lovell
    Moderators, Politics Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 24,268 Mod ✭✭✭✭Chips Lovell


    Even if they were easier and cheaper to acquire, I'm unconvinced that road closure orders are desirable.

    1. They're likely to result in more disruption, not less, for other traffic. As it stands, traffic meeting a race usually isn't delayed for very long.
    2. In order to effectively enforce a "no-local traffic on circuit" or a one way rule, race organisers would need a massive increase in manpower.


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    #277
    Inquitus
    Registered Users Posts: 13,734 ✭✭✭✭Inquitus


    Jep Gambardella wrote: »
    Even if they were easier and cheaper to acquire, I'm unconvinced that road closure orders are desirable.

    1. They're likely to result in more disruption, not less, for other traffic. As it stands, traffic meeting a race usually isn't delayed for very long.
    2. In order to effectively enforce a "no-local traffic on circuit" or a one way rule, race organisers would need a massive increase in manpower.

    I would imagine how the closed road order is implemented is at the discretion of the organisers, it could be implemented exactly as we run races today, i.e. cars allowed in both directions on circuit and only stopped briefly as cyclists approach a turn. It would just give Marshall's the legal power to direct the traffic.

    Which ofc begs the question what's the point in requiring them in the first place......


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    #278
    Beasty
    Administrators, Social & Fun Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 75,594 Admin ✭✭✭✭✭Beasty


    Jep Gambardella wrote: »
    Even if they were easier and cheaper to acquire, I'm unconvinced that road closure orders are desirable.

    1. They're likely to result in more disruption, not less, for other traffic. As it stands, traffic meeting a race usually isn't delayed for very long.
    2. In order to effectively enforce a "no-local traffic on circuit" or a one way rule, race organisers would need a massive increase in manpower.
    One benefit I can see, if the cost/hassle issues could be managed, is it potentially opens up new circuits, as it should be possible to use narrower roads. Equally though I think, particularly in the Greater Dublin area, you are unlikely to avoid some pretty major roads unless you introduce lots of corners (and a few more marshals to manage them).

    Then you have the issue of just how much racing is going on, with the IVCA, Open races, club league etc often using circuits in the same vicinity. I think there would probably be uproar amongst locals if attempts were made to accommodate the current calendars on closed roads


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    #279
    Chips Lovell
    Moderators, Politics Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 24,268 Mod ✭✭✭✭Chips Lovell


    Inquitus wrote: »
    Which ofc begs the question what's the point in requiring them in the first place......

    Exactly. It could be a huge amount of fuss for something that's purely cosmetic.


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    #280
    07Lapierre
    Registered Users Posts: 8,219 ✭✭✭07Lapierre


    Jep Gambardella wrote: »
    Even if they were easier and cheaper to acquire, I'm unconvinced that road closure orders are desirable.

    1. They're likely to result in more disruption, not less, for other traffic. As it stands, traffic meeting a race usually isn't delayed for very long.
    2. In order to effectively enforce a "no-local traffic on circuit" or a one way rule, race organisers would need a massive increase in manpower.

    Agreed...Which is why I suggested this:

    http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=94857533&postcount=87


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    #281
    pprendeville
    Registered Users Posts: 2,888 ✭✭✭pprendeville


    Lusk_Doyle wrote: »
    Jesus <snip>!

    Stick to the pseudonym plz. :)


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    #282
    pprendeville
    Registered Users Posts: 2,888 ✭✭✭pprendeville


    Jep Gambardella wrote: »
    I completely understand this concern. I genuinely don't want to sound glib, but just want make sure people are aware of what the legal standing of races has always been. I think any club who was told the the above by the Guards wouldn't be blamed for thinking long and hard about their options.

    However, I'm kind of optimistic about the reassurances that Drogheda received from Cycling Ireland, about marshals receiving the back of them and their insurers.

    I also think there may be a some distinction between what the Guards in Fingal and the Guards in Meath are saying. The line in Fingal seems to be several degrees more extreme than the message going out in Meath.

    Have a feeling that if the said insurance company was faced with the prospect of having to pay out big money in the event of an accident they wouldn't be long changing their tune.


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    #283
    ThisRegard
    Closed Accounts Posts: 27,834 ✭✭✭✭ThisRegard


    07Lapierre wrote: »
    Yes it is an offence to stop traffic...only gardai (and Traffic Wardens) have the legal right to do so.

    And someone in control of animals. Just have every marshal bring a horse or cow with them and they're sorted. Simplest solution.


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    #284
    Lusk_Doyle
    Registered Users Posts: 4,338 ✭✭✭Lusk_Doyle


    pprendeville wrote: »
    Stick to the pseudonym plz. :)

    Oops, sorry PP!


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    #285
    couerdelion
    Registered Users Posts: 2,910 ✭✭✭couerdelion


    Beasty wrote: »
    The UK has though introduced laws allowing certain motorcycle marshals to stop/manage traffic - something like that would certainly relieve some of the tensions over here

    Motor Cycle marshals and static marshals have the power to stop traffic in the UK (wales at least). As long as the marshals have been trained by the police and are employed by an accredited company (Cycling Wales) then the local police super will grant them the power to stop.

    To me that seems like an ideal compromise - but it would take time to work legislation through.


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    #286
    07Lapierre
    Registered Users Posts: 8,219 ✭✭✭07Lapierre


    Inquitus wrote: »
    I would imagine how the closed road order is implemented is at the discretion of the organisers, it could be implemented exactly as we run races today, i.e. cars allowed in both directions on circuit and only stopped briefly as cyclists approach a turn. It would just give Marshall's the legal power to direct the traffic.

    Which ofc begs the question what's the point in requiring them in the first place......

    A CRO is at the discretion of the County Council. This is the very point we discussed with Fingal. We want to be able to run Club races on Open roads without any traffic restrictions (basically we want to run them as we have been for the past 30 years or so.)

    But Fingal had insisted on a CRO (as recommended/insisted on by the Gardaí) for all races, Open or Closed.

    We think we have finally got an agreement to at least allow us to run two club races on a trail basis and we hope that once we run these races safely, that the gardai will be happy to allow us to continue to do so, with some possible conditions (e.s. Max number of riders..agreed circuits for racing or whatever)


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    #287
    RobFowl
    Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators Posts: 11,667 Mod ✭✭✭✭RobFowl


    Road closures desirable or not will simply not work at this time. They require a substantial Garda presence to enforce and that is simply not achievable with the manpower issues the Garda have at present.
    If mandatory road closures are enforced many races will simply not happen or else be cancelled at the last moment if and when gardai are not available.
    The only impact this will have is to destroy road racing as a sport in this country.


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    #288
    pprendeville
    Registered Users Posts: 2,888 ✭✭✭pprendeville


    couerdelion wrote: »
    Motor Cycle marshals and static marshals have the power to stop traffic in the UK (wales at least). As long as the marshals have been trained by the police and are employed by an accredited company (Cycling Wales) then the local police super will grant them the power to stop.

    To me that seems like an ideal compromise - but it would take time to work legislation through.

    Does it work like that in Northern Ireland also? I remember doing the newry 3 Day and I'm nearly sure the moto marshalls would go up the road (there were loads) and they'd stop at junctions coming onto main roads until the bunch had passed and come back around again.


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    #289
    07Lapierre
    Registered Users Posts: 8,219 ✭✭✭07Lapierre


    RobFowl wrote: »
    Road closures desirable or not will simply not work at this time. They require a substantial Garda presence to enforce and that is simply not achievable with he manpower issues the Garda have at present.
    If mandatory road closures are enforced many races will simply not happen or be cancelled at the last moment if and when gardai are not available.
    The only impact this will have is to destroy road racing as a sport in this country.

    My Information is that once we apply for and receive a CRO from Fingal..Gardaí are not required. Once we have that piece of paper, we can legally put a barrier across the road and stop All traffic. The Problem is. anyone who has marshalled at the Ras finish in Skerries knows the kind of grief you get from people when a road is closed off! without Gardai being present we'd be lynched!


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    #290
    Beasty
    Administrators, Social & Fun Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 75,594 Admin ✭✭✭✭✭Beasty


    RobFowl wrote: »
    Road closures desirable or not will simply not work at this time. They require a substantial Garda presence to enforce and that is simply not achievable with he manpower issues the Garda have at present.
    AFAIK full road closures require no Gardaí involvement. It's the responsibility of the organisers to "police" the junctions. The Gardai do of course have to manage "rolling" closures for the likes of the Ras


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    #291
    Inquitus
    Registered Users Posts: 13,734 ✭✭✭✭Inquitus


    RobFowl wrote: »
    Road closures desirable or not will simply not work at this time. They require a substantial Garda presence to enforce and that is simply not achievable with the manpower issues the Garda have at present.
    If mandatory road closures are enforced many races will simply not happen or else be cancelled at the last moment if and when gardai are not available.
    The only impact this will have is to destroy road racing as a sport in this country.

    I don't believe you need Garda assistance to implement a closed road order.


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    #292
    RobFowl
    Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators Posts: 11,667 Mod ✭✭✭✭RobFowl


    Beasty wrote: »
    AFAIK full road closures require no Gardaí involvement. It's the responsibility of the organisers to "police" the junctions. The Gardai do of course have to manage "rolling" closures for the likes of the Ras

    I have never seen a full road closure for a sporting or similar event where the Gardai have not been in attendance.
    Would be interested to hear if any one else had been at even one??

    By the letter of the law Gardai may not technically have to be there but in real terms its simply not going to happen.


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    #293
    07Lapierre
    Registered Users Posts: 8,219 ✭✭✭07Lapierre


    RobFowl wrote: »
    I have never seen a full road closure for a sporting or similar event where the Gardai have not been in attendance.
    Would be interested to hear if any one else had been at even one??

    By the letter of the law Gardai may not technically have to be there but in real terms its simply not going to happen.

    If you want to see a CRO in action go Here: https://www.google.ie/maps/@53.425729,-6.212943,3a,75y,180h,90t/data=!3m4!1e1!3m2!1s-GGMgH3MS60DPhcg13911g!2e0

    This road is closed until April 10th and has been closed for the last few months. IMO its a classic example of what a CRO should be used for. That is Major Roadworks. No Gardaí needed as its physically impossible to cycle or drive along the road.

    A CRO for a Bike race is a good idea if there are 100+ riders doing laps of a circuit. But for running a small race on quiet rural roads, its total O.T.T.


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    #294
    ThisRegard
    Closed Accounts Posts: 27,834 ✭✭✭✭ThisRegard


    RobFowl wrote: »
    I have never seen a full road closure for a sporting or similar event where the Gardai have not been in attendance.
    Would be interested to hear if any one else had been at even one??

    By the letter of the law Gardai may not technically have to be there but in real terms its simply not going to happen.

    I was marshalling an event which was on the same day and partially the same route as the Ras one time. As the Ras approached the junction I was at a garda biker came along, blocked the junction, and off he went again once the last guy was through. Incidentally I wasn't holding or stopping traffic at the junction, just informing traffic that there was an event on so be wary.

    There was non garda biker marshals but they didn't do anything really at the junction from what I can remember


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    #295
    RobFowl
    Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators Posts: 11,667 Mod ✭✭✭✭RobFowl


    07Lapierre wrote: »
    If you want to see a CRO in action go Here: https://www.google.ie/maps/@53.425729,-6.212943,3a,75y,180h,90t/data=!3m4!1e1!3m2!1s-GGMgH3MS60DPhcg13911g!2e0

    Thats not for a sporting or similar reason though. It's the 1day closures for a few hours I'm referring to.


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    #296
    07Lapierre
    Registered Users Posts: 8,219 ✭✭✭07Lapierre


    RobFowl wrote: »
    Thats not for a sporting or similar reason though. It's the 1day closures for a few hours I'm referring to.

    I Know..I'm agreeing with you. I don't think a CRO (Closed Road Order) is the way to go for club races anyway.

    But for Large Open races with 100+ riders, I think its hard to argue against a CRO. A Rolling Road closure with garda assistance is a possible alternative to a full road closure, but as you say..the gardai are stretched and under resourced, so getting garda assistance is going to be difficult.


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    #297
    Beasty
    Administrators, Social & Fun Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 75,594 Admin ✭✭✭✭✭Beasty


    RobFowl wrote: »
    I have never seen a full road closure for a sporting or similar event where the Gardai have not been in attendance.
    Would be interested to hear if any one else had been at even one??
    Fingal Tri outside my house last year. I ended up going to the near corner to "assist" the poor marshal (as the person who was supposed to be helping here didn't turn up)

    Of course, that was only one junction and I have no idea as to how the others were dealt with, although I did see something similar with another of their triathlons/duathlons last year


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    #298
    Mefistofelino
    Registered Users Posts: 1,763 ✭✭✭Mefistofelino


    07Lapierre wrote: »
    I Know..I'm agreeing with you. I don't think a CRO (Closed Road Order) is the way to go for club races anyway.

    But for Large Open races with 100+ riders, I think its hard to argue against a CRO. A Rolling Road closure with garda assistance is a possible alternative to a full road closure, but as you say..the gardai are stretched and under resourced, so getting garda assistance is going to be difficult.


    A Temporary Road Closure doesn't come cheap, with council fees of €500+. Most road race circuits wouldn't fall into the "small" category (unless running a crit) so they'll be at the more expensive end of the scale. Add into this the requirement to develop an acceptable emergency access plan, advertising and, possibly, door-to-door notification leaflet drops and the organising club is well into a 4-figure bill before a single entry fee is taken. A TRC will put at least an extra tenner on an entry fee and quite possibly multiples of that.


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    #299
    RobFowl
    Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators Posts: 11,667 Mod ✭✭✭✭RobFowl


    Beasty wrote: »
    Fingal Tri outside my house last year. I ended up going to the near corner to "assist" the poor marshal (as the person who was supposed to be helping here didn't turn up)

    Of course, that was only one junction and I have no idea as to how the others were dealt with, although I did see something similar with another of their triathlons/duathlons last year

    They were definitely in attendance for that one, they quoted descriptions of it back at other organisers !!


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    #300
    ROK ON
    Closed Accounts Posts: 6,831 ✭✭✭ROK ON


    Jep Gambardella wrote: »
    Even if they were easier and cheaper to acquire, I'm unconvinced that road closure orders are desirable.

    1. They're likely to result in more disruption, not less, for other traffic. As it stands, traffic meeting a race usually isn't delayed for very long.
    2. In order to effectively enforce a "no-local traffic on circuit" or a one way rule, race organisers would need a massive increase in manpower.


    +1
    Even if it were free CI and clubs should reject closed road racing out of hand for 90% of events. One sure fire way to p1ss off people is to close a road. In Kenmare the Rally of the lakes gets road closures for two to three days every year. Last year every route out of Kenmare was closed for the best part of an entire Saturday.
    The precedent set by having to close roads for any event is a dangerous one IMHO. If rules are followed within reason and there is sufficient marshalling then open road events can cause relatively little inconvenience for road users.


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    #301
    cornet
    Registered Users Posts: 133 ✭✭cornet


    I have marshalled when roads were closed (Nat Champs) and at plenty of races when roads weren't closed.

    My observations:
    1. Even with closed roads a marshal has no authority to stop anyone - some motorists ignored them. I was with a uniformed Guard at a junction, I was amazed at the abuse he got from a couple of motorists.

    2. Closed roads inconvenience neighbours (I only live up the road) and you have to eventually let people through in the direction/flow of the race.

    3. In non-closed races motorists accept that it is minor wait and most enjoy watching the race pass by. The key is to be polite and thank them for their patience.

    4. I think the Guards have better things to do then go around arresting cycling marshals.

    5. Closed roads benefit cyclists more than motorists.


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