IVCA race canceled this Sunday

07Lapierre · 30-03-2015 10:10am

lennymc wrote: »

I don't know if the section below is legally enforceable, or if it would cover the scenario above, but, every rider when taking out a licence agrees that they are responsible for their own actions.

CI Terms and Conditions are "Guidelines" only. The Road traffic Act is "the law"...again this is what was relayed to me by the Gardaí.

besides...CI states that all participants must obey ROTR. The fact that the Races organisers and Marshals may also be liable in the event of an incident is whats causing the problem.

couerdelion · 30-03-2015 10:13am

07Lapierre wrote: »

That's correct...and the Gardaí tended to "Turn a blind eye" to this and race organisers were under the impression that in the event of an incident, the gardai would look at the situation sympathetically.

It has now been confirmed (in Fingal anyway) that that is no longer the case. The law of the land will be applied "to the letter".

What blind eye were they turning? We were always told in briefings that as a marshal we were unable to legally stop traffic therefore by asking traffic if they minded waiting no RoR were being broken. If they said No then we were to stop the race.

Chips Lovell · 30-03-2015 10:13am

07Lapierre wrote: »

That's correct...and the Gardaí tended to "Turn a blind eye" to this and race organisers were under the impression that in the event of an incident, the gardai would look at the situation sympathetically.

I'm confused. What were "Gardai turning a blind eye" to?

07Lapierre · 30-03-2015 10:17am

Jep Gambardella wrote: »

I'm confused. What were "Gardai turning a blind eye" to?

When was the last time you were in a race where the whole race stopped at a Stop sign? were there gardai assisting with that race? did they "have words" with the marshal? if they didn't, then they were "turning a blind eye" to the marshal stopping the traffic.

Inquitus · 30-03-2015 10:23am

lennymc wrote: »

That system is not perfect, but with enough marshals it could be workable. There are a lot of people working very hard behind the scenes to try to protect and promote racing, yet, every compromise or suggestion seems to be shot down. What would you suggest as a workable alternative that would keep everyone (especially the authorities) happy?

A Marshall whether legally entitled to or not can stop traffic effectively wearing a high vis, and standing in the middle of the road with a flag. This has worked effectively for decades and the Gardai have turned a blind eye to what is a fairly harmless thing. Builders, Truck Drivers and many others control traffic "illegally" on a daily basis as well.

A Marshall who is hamstrung by watching Gardai and only allowed to stand at the side of the road doing the approved arm down warning sign is far less effective.

Personally I don't see a workable alternative, if Gardai wish to monitor Marshall's and hamstring their effectiveness by applying the very letter of the law, it only makes everything more dangerous for everyone.

lennymc · 30-03-2015 10:24am

I give up.

Inquitus · 30-03-2015 10:26am

lennymc wrote: »

I give up.

That said I'll still turn up and pay my 15 euros

Its a risk I am willing to take, but I think we have to acknowledge this Garda intervention is putting people at greater risk.

nilhg · 30-03-2015 10:26am

07Lapierre wrote: »

When was the last time you were in a race where the whole race stopped at a Stop sign? were there gardai assisting with that race? did they "have words" with the marshal? if they didn't, then they were "turning a blind eye" to the marshal stopping the traffic.

While marshals don't have the authority to stop traffic, is it an offence for them to? Can you imagine the general reaction if the guards hauled a marshall or a club up before a court for stopping traffic for 30 seconds?

07Lapierre · 30-03-2015 10:32am

nilhg wrote: »

While marshals don't have the authority to stop traffic, is it an offence for them to? Can you imagine the general reaction if the guards hauled a marshall or a club up before a court for stopping traffic for 30 seconds?

Yes it is an offence to stop traffic...only gardai (and Traffic Wardens) have the legal right to do so.

I doubt very much if gardai would haul a marshal into court for just stopping traffic. But They have confirmed that they will prosecute marshals and race organisers in the event of a serious incident involving a rider and a motorist.

Chips Lovell · 30-03-2015 10:40am

07Lapierre wrote: »

...then they were "turning a blind eye" to the marshal stopping the traffic.

But as a marshal I've never been told by a race organiser I could "stop traffic", either if the Guards were present at the race or not. That's always been the case, even before these difficulties began in Fingal.

07Lapierre · 30-03-2015 10:52am

Jep Gambardella wrote: »

But as a marshal I've never been told by a race organiser I could "stop traffic", either if the Guards were present at the race or not. That's always been the case, even before these difficulties began in Fingal.

IMO The real issue is Stop Signs, Right Hand turns, Pedestrian Zebra crossings/traffic lights and possibly roundabouts. Its very difficult to find suitable road circuits that do not have these.

Even if marshals are marshalling correctly, its impossible to run a road race within the rules of the road, and as long as the gardai are telling race organisers that they could be prosecuted, then we have a problem.

Chips Lovell · 30-03-2015 10:59am

Again, this has always been the case. Race participants are regularly reminded and obliged under CI rules that road traffic law applies and they are not exempt from adhering to it. If a rider decides to cross a solid white line or blow a stop sign, then its on their heads, not the race organiser's.

Cond0r · 30-03-2015 11:06am

lennymc wrote: »

I don't know if the section below is legally enforceable, or if it would cover the scenario above, but, every rider when taking out a licence agrees that they are responsible for their own actions.

Originally Posted by CI Terms and Conditions of issuing a licence
I understand, and agree, that I participate in events, whether on the public highway or otherwise, at my own risk, and that no liability whatever will attach to the promoter, promoting club, or any officials of any cycling event nor to Cycling Ireland, Provincial Board affiliated thereto, for any injury, loss or damage suffered by me in or by reason of any event however such may be caused.

As you hint in your comment above the quote, I think it could be pretty hard to argue that race organisers have no liability if a serious incident occurs regardless of a waiver that the rider signed.

Honestly, I think the way forward is that CI need to work with local authorities / department of transport/local government/whatever to facilitate a (relatively) easy and cheap(or at least cheaper than the current) process to get road closures for races in more lightweight fashion. That is, the road is closed to oncoming traffic, but traffic can freely flow between the bunches in the same direction as the race.

This way everyone wins;

there's minimal impact on locals living on the circuit
the marshals have legal rights to stop and control traffic
the riders have a safer race all round

I'm well aware that this is not an easy thing to implement, but I think it could be done. No more ambiguity, and a sustainable solution for continued road racing.

07Lapierre · 30-03-2015 11:16am

Jep Gambardella wrote: »

Again, this has always been the case. Race participants are regularly reminded and obliged under CI rules that road traffic law applies and they are not exempt from adhering to it. If a rider decides to cross a solid white line or blow a stop sign, then its on their heads, not the race organiser's.

That is what I always thought.

But when your in a meeting with the Gardaí and they tell you that unless you have a Closed Road Order in place, then any race you run is illegal and therefore the organisers, marshals and riders are all liable for prosecution. Kinda changes things a bit.

Chips Lovell · 30-03-2015 11:24am

I completely understand this concern. I genuinely don't want to sound glib, but just want make sure people are aware of what the legal standing of races has always been. I think any club who was told the the above by the Guards wouldn't be blamed for thinking long and hard about their options.

However, I'm kind of optimistic about the reassurances that Drogheda received from Cycling Ireland, about marshals receiving the back of them and their insurers.

I also think there may be a some distinction between what the Guards in Fingal and the Guards in Meath are saying. The line in Fingal seems to be several degrees more extreme than the message going out in Meath.

Bristolscale7 · 30-03-2015 11:35am

CI and the IVCA need to push the OPW harder on the Phoenix Park races. Not a damn reason in the world why a closed circuit starting at 7:00 a.m. on a Saturday should be disallowed by the OPW.

07Lapierre · 30-03-2015 11:37am

Bristolscale7 wrote: »

CI and the IVCA need to push the OPW harder on the Phoenix Park races. Not a damn reason in the world why a closed circuit starting at 7:00 a.m. on a Saturday should be disallowed by the OPW.

"Health and Safety"...we might hurt ourselves and sue them!

Bristolscale7 · 30-03-2015 11:39am

07Lapierre wrote: »

"Health and Safety"...we might hurt ourselves and sue them!

This doesn't hold water. The race organizations can indemnify the OPW.

Beasty · 30-03-2015 11:42am

07Lapierre wrote: »

"Health and Safety"...we might hurt ourselves and sue them!

However we can (and do) provide any relevant authority with an indemnity letter from CI's insurers covering them to the tune of €6.5m (or more) should anything go wrong

I do think this was previously seen as one of the "safety valves" on this whole issue and perhaps the Gardaí are not looking at the issue in this light. We effectively have public liability cover which should deal with any potential claims

07Lapierre · 30-03-2015 11:54am

Bristolscale7 wrote: »

This doesn't hold water. The race organizations can indemnify the OPW.

I was joking !

07Lapierre · 30-03-2015 11:55am

Beasty wrote: »

However we can (and do) provide any relevant authority with an indemnity letter from CI's insurers covering them to the tune of €6.5m (or more) should anything go wrong

I do think this was previously seen as one of the "safety valves" on this whole issue and perhaps the Gardaí are not looking at the issue in this light. We effectively have public liability cover which should deal with any potential claims

I have full Comp insurance on my car...I still can't run a red light though.

Bristolscale7 · 30-03-2015 11:58am

07Lapierre wrote: »

I was joking !

Emotions are high in this thread--irony and humor need to be flagged appropriately!

It does piss me off though that both CI and the IVCA seem to have let the OPW off the hook on the Phoenix Park races.

morana · 30-03-2015 12:03pm

Marshals were always covered by CI insurance!

Thats nothing new as long as the race is an approved CI race.

Beasty · 30-03-2015 12:06pm

Bristolscale7 wrote: »

It does piss me off though that both CI and the IVCA seem to have let the OPW off the hook on the Phoenix Park races.

Don't understand these comments

Firstly CI do not run any races. It's over to clubs if they wish to apply to the park authorities. They have though provided an excellent facility at Corkagh park. It may not be large enough for open races but plenty of clubs take advantage of it. In addition Mondello has started to put on a lot more events

In the case of the IVCA until late last week there was no hint of this issue escalating this way. I am sure they will review their options at tomorrow's EGM, but I'm not seeing them letting anyone off the hook

Beasty · 30-03-2015 12:08pm

morana wrote: »

Marshals were always covered by CI insurance!

Covered for any financial penalty - doesn't absolve them from any potential prosecution though

12 sprocket · 30-03-2015 12:24pm

Bristolscale7 wrote: »

CI and the IVCA need to push the OPW harder on the Phoenix Park races. Not a damn reason in the world why a closed circuit starting at 7:00 a.m. on a Saturday should be disallowed by the OPW.

I think you might find that there is not that much pushing of the OPW people in the park required at all.. As far as I am aware the Park people want to see the park being used for sport and recreational purposes including bike races.. However there are a number of things that they usually require such as posters on gates barriers etc that involve some work for the race organisers prior to the event...
So Bristolscale I imagine the door might be open if you just push it and maybe you might consider organising a race yourself there to kick it off?

12 sprocket · 30-03-2015 12:34pm

Beasty wrote: »

Covered for any financial penalty - doesn't absolve them from any potential prosecution though

Beasty, races have been run in this country for a long, long time with no major problems and part of the reason is that the Irish are a sporting nation and also that they are a little bit more flexible than some nations and nationalities in regard to rules and regulations.

Its a case of rules and regulations being there to guide people rather than stifle them and their activities.. As the late Ben Mc Kenna who was a sergeant in the Garda Traffic Corp, a leading commisaire, Ras Winner, and gentleman to boot once said to me..... THe rules are just for keeping us between the hedges, there has to be some flexibility in them. And its good to see that Cycling Ireland have confirmed that their marshals are well covered with insurance.

morana · 30-03-2015 12:49pm

Beasty wrote: »

Covered for any financial penalty - doesn't absolve them from any potential prosecution though

what other way would they be covered? I dont know of the insurers going to court to defend a potential "criminal" action and I would bet thats still the case.

BzrBren · 30-03-2015 12:55pm

ðŸ˜¢

Beasty · 30-03-2015 12:56pm

morana wrote: »

what other way would they be covered? I dont know of the insurers going to court to defend a potential "criminal" action and I would bet thats still the case.

They would be covered for any claims under the public liability insurance for example, which may never go anywhere near a court. Equally though they could be prosecuted by the Gardai for obstructing traffic of a whole host of other "statutory" offences. They may be covered for any fine, and it's very unlikely to be a criminal prosecution, but they could still end up with some kind of civil prosecution "record" which could count against them (sometimes it can affect an ability to get certain jobs for example)

IVCA race canceled this Sunday

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