Lack of new routes at Cork airport

rosie16 · 06-11-2014 12:34pm

Article in the cork independent today: http://www.corkindependent.com/20141106/business/cork-airport-working-to-reverse-numbers-decline-S94001.html

shnaek · 06-11-2014 12:45pm

rebs23 wrote: »

Unfortunately in this capitalist country our government rescued Shannon Airport by wiping out their debt of over €100 Million and giving the holding company for Shannon Airport a property portfolio which is worth several hundred million euro.

Crony capitalist I think you mean, governments don't rescue businesses in true capitalist systems.

who_me · 06-11-2014 1:08pm

shnaek wrote: »

Crony capitalist I think you mean, governments don't rescue businesses in true capitalist systems.

A true capitalist country wouldn't have had airports owned by a state agency, so this situation would never have arisen in the first place.

KCAccidental · 06-11-2014 2:30pm

rosie16 wrote: »

Article in the cork independent today: http://www.corkindependent.com/20141106/business/cork-airport-working-to-reverse-numbers-decline-S94001.html

so much wrong with that article.

I can't believe he is trying to count charter flights as part of the airports route map. absolute bull****!

as for the cork-dublin route, well to feed into transatlantic might work, but to think 500,000 people will come back when the infrastructure between the two cities has vastly improved and choose it over the aircoach? not a hope in hell.

the fact that this guy thinks it's the key to the airports success makes me fear all the more for the airport's future.

fergie24 · 06-11-2014 2:36pm

KCAccidental wrote: »

so much wrong with that article.

I can't believe he is trying to count charter flights as part of the airports route map. absolute bull****!

as for the cork-dublin route, well to feed into transatlantic might work, but to think 500,000 people will come back when the infrastructure between the two cities has vastly improved and choose it over the aircoach? not a hope in hell.

the fact that this guy thinks it's the key to the airports success makes me fear all the more for the airport's future.

x2,

Cork Dublin will be nice but is not the answer it in fact may make it worst. I can picture aerlingus pulling some of there routes from Cork trying to make people go via Dublin thus making more money.

KCAccidental · 06-11-2014 2:45pm

I always think that Germany is woefully under served relative to the amount of Germans that visit west cork and Kerry, As far as I know the Munich route seems to be successful. I have a good amount of German friends who visit from time to time. Those who live in the east tend to go through Dublin and those in the west go through Amsterdam to Cork. If a route in the western region opened up i think it would be massively popular.

Why not try to get germanwings to look at a Koln and Berlin route or something. Both places are good tourist destinations for Irish People and Cork gets to capture a fair few more incoming passengers.

JCX BXC · 06-11-2014 5:15pm

Aer Lingus increase Malaga to 8 per week, extra
Flight on a Saturday, arriving in at 00:30.

kub · 06-11-2014 7:59pm

Considering that passengers have to be into Cork airport 2 hours before flying, aside from getting to the airport and parking. Then to put up with all that security.
Sorry but personally I would rather hit the M8 and drive to Dublin, then have the freedom of having my own vehicle in Dublin and drive back home whenever I am good and ready.
If I am going transatlantic then I will unfortunately have to avail of an Aer Lingus flight to London Heathrow. I say unfortunately as I feel they are letting Cork down in this regard. I would not consider using them out of Shannon or Dublin. Instead I will use BA or an American carrier out of London.
I think the DAA are the driving force for the reintroduction of this flight. They have no intention of starting up a Transatlantic service from Cork and they obviously hate to see Cork people going up to use Shannon airport as they are now competitors.
I have read elsewhere on boards that an American carrier called Jet Blue has an interest in starting a service from Cork to US.

corkonion · 06-11-2014 8:23pm

kub wrote: »

Considering that passengers have to be into Cork airport 2 hours before flying, aside from getting to the airport and parking. Then to put up with all that security.
Sorry but personally I would rather hit the M8 and drive to Dublin, then have the freedom of having my own vehicle in Dublin and drive back home whenever I am good and ready.
If I am going transatlantic then I will unfortunately have to avail of an Aer Lingus flight to London Heathrow. I say unfortunately as I feel they are letting Cork down in this regard. I would not consider using them out of Shannon or Dublin. Instead I will use BA or an American carrier out of London.
I think the DAA are the driving force for the reintroduction of this flight. They have no intention of starting up a Transatlantic service from Cork and they obviously hate to see Cork people going up to use Shannon airport as they are now competitors.
I have read elsewhere on boards that an American carrier called Jet Blue has an interest in starting a service from Cork to US.

While I am a fierce critic of the DAA, it's only fair to acknowledge that they are not the ones trying to restart the Dublin/Cork route it is in fact a group spearheaded by the cork chamber of commerce and includes councillors and business leaders and even Mep Deirdre Clune.

JCX BXC · 06-11-2014 8:24pm

corkonion wrote: »

While I am a fierce critic of the DAA, it's only fair to acknowledge that they are not the ones trying to restart the Dublin/Cork route it is in fact a group spearheaded by the cork chamber of commerce and includes councillors and business leaders and even Mep Deirdre Clune.

Can I ask though, what is the benefit of a Dublin route when cork already has London Heathrow and Amsterdam routes?

KCAccidental · 07-11-2014 12:30am

Carnacalla wrote: »

Can I ask though, what is the benefit of a Dublin route when cork already has London Heathrow and Amsterdam routes?

the pre flight immigration checks in Dublin are attractive.

JCX BXC · 07-11-2014 12:33am

KCAccidental wrote: »

the pre flight immigration checks in Dublin are attractive.

But is that enough to justify the extra €200 the cork-dub flights will cost?

KCAccidental · 07-11-2014 12:39am

Carnacalla wrote: »

But is that enough to justify the extra €200 the cork-dub flights will cost?

not for me, not sure about others though!

JCX BXC · 07-11-2014 12:43am

KCAccidental wrote: »

not for me, not sure about others though!

I highly doubt it. €99 is a ridiculous amount to pay for a domestic flight in this tiny country of Ireland. Their better be a drink service on that flight! Although we all know their wont be. How can you justify €99 one-way against the likes of Manchester for €31.99?

JCX BXC · 07-11-2014 2:10am

Cork Examiner today: http://www.irishexaminer.com/ireland/fears-ryanair-may-cut-part-of-cork-summer-schedule-296672.html

This basically re-states what I already posted.

It seems very focused on Shannon Bashing. Two Polands routes have been transferred to Shannon from my knowledge. That's it.
The Lithuania service was not switched to Shannon because its a different airport. It would been more of a Knock-Shannon transfer.

Dannyboy83 · 07-11-2014 12:02pm

Carnacalla wrote: »

Cork Examiner today: http://www.irishexaminer.com/ireland/fears-ryanair-may-cut-part-of-cork-summer-schedule-296672.html

This basically re-states what I already posted.

It seems very focused on Shannon Bashing. Two Polands routes have been transferred to Shannon from my knowledge. That's it.
The Lithuania service was not switched to Shannon because its a different airport. It would been more of a Knock-Shannon transfer.

I didn't perceive it as Shannon bashing - I took the emphasis as being on Independence, as it was immediately expanded upon by Corks inability to compete fairly

Since gaining independence, Shannon has been able to offer deals which allow airlines to operate effectively free of landing fees.

Cork’s ability to compete fairly is reportedly being hampered because it is still servicing a €100m debt associated with the building of its terminal building.

It's good that things are gradually coming to a head tho.

Cork Chamber executives today ahead of a chamber meeting with the transport minister later this month.

If Cork can continue to hang on by it's fingernails, the situation will just perpetuate.

Hopefully, Ryanair will cut a lot of flights out of Cork.

JCX BXC · 07-11-2014 12:24pm

I remember Leo Varadkar saying earlier this year that they could not give cork independence because it would be loss making and not sustainable. I will try to find a link later.

Dannyboy83 · 07-11-2014 12:39pm

Carnacalla wrote: »

I remember Leo Varadkar saying earlier this year that they could not give cork independence because it would be loss making and not sustainable. I will try to find a link later.

That rings a bell alrite.

http://www.irishexaminer.com/business/lsquoairport-costs-too-high-in-corkrsquo-270765.html
The Minister for Transport Leo Varadkar has stated that new government legislation provides a mechanism for Cork Airport to become independent.

However, Mr Varadkar said that if Cork Airport secured its independence now, the airport “would immediately be loss-making”.

Speaking during a Seanad debate on the State Airports (Shannon Group) Bill 2014, Mr Varadkar said: “Unlike Shannon Airport, Cork Airport’s operating costs substantially exceed its revenues. To operate on a commercial basis it would require significant redundancies and or pay cuts, which nobody is proposing.”

Mr Varadkar said that while it is not the right time for Cork to become independent “it could be done when the time is right, and this legislation allows a mechanism for it”.

The Transport Minister said that independence for Cork “is not right for the DAA now because it carries a debt of €200m as a result of the new terminal”.

He added: “If this debt stayed with Cork Airport it would crush Cork while if it stayed with the DAA it would severely damage its balance sheet at a time when it needs to deal with pension issues.”

Figures for 2013 show that passenger numbers declined by 3.5% to 2.3m.

Mr Varadkar stated: “We need more people to visit Cork. Unfortunately, it is largely an outbound airport.”

He pointed out that the DAA established the Cork Airport Development Council at his request and it had its first meeting in March. “Its remit is to pull the interests of the region together, try to develop the airport and give people more reasons to visit the region and use the airport.”

Cork economist, Dr Seán Barrett told the minister that he supported his decision in relation to Shannon “so, why can Cork not have its independence?”

“I do not like the idea of the airport run as a colony of Dublin,” he said.

BTW, the GoBe service is really good coupled with the M8, I was very impressed with it - I agree with your sentiments where the Cork-Dublin flights are concerned generally (still reckon there is a market for it, just a smaller one than previously existed)

notharrypotter · 07-11-2014 2:04pm

Carnacalla wrote: »

I remember Leo Varadkar saying earlier this year that they could not give cork independence because it would be loss making and not sustainable. I will try to find a link later.

Irish Indo 3 JUNE 2014
and
Irish Examiner 3 JUNE 2014
Leo Varadker
“He added, however, that if Cork Airport secured its independence now, the airport "would immediately" be loss-making. Unlike Shannon Airport, Cork Airport's operating costs substantially exceed its revenues," he said.”

See also "Flying in Ireland" September page 8 and October page 9.

rebs23 · 07-11-2014 3:07pm

notharrypotter wrote: »

Irish Indo 3 JUNE 2014
and
Irish Examiner 3 JUNE 2014
Leo Varadker
“He added, however, that if Cork Airport secured its independence now, the airport "would immediately" be loss-making. Unlike Shannon Airport, Cork Airport's operating costs substantially exceed its revenues," he said.”

See also "Flying in Ireland" September page 8 and October page 9.

That is a real spin by Varadkar for the benefit of his Mid West FG allies. Operating costs included the servicing of the debt. Give Cork the debt write off that Shannon got.
If Cork Airport got a deal like Shannon Airport got, would it be loss making? Doesn't it make an operating profit every year?

notharrypotter · 07-11-2014 7:04pm

Aer Rianta master plan to redevelop Cork Airport.

Cork New Terminal
Dáil Éireann - Volume 521 - 20 June, 2000
Adjournment Debate. - Cork Airport Development.
Local TD's state current terminal no longer fit for purpose and there needs to be a new one.

Aer Rianta plans on hold at the time.

Work commences, Cork Airport History

An Taoiseach Bertie Ahern T.D. turns the first sod for the €140million investment on a brand new terminal, multi-storey car park, new air traffic control building and a new cargo village, on 26th June; Cork Airport reaches 2 million passengers in November.

Approximate breakdown of what was spent in millions
Terminal 170 RTE News
Ramp 11.5
Car park 15
Fire station no figure given.

So someone did spend €220 million in upgrading cork airport.

There is a figure of IR£40 for the business park in the business plan. but this would be historical by now.

If Cork Airport got a deal like Shannon Airport got

Ah but they did even better. The deal was that the DAA would keep €110 million and Cork would get to keep everything and only have to pay €110 million for it.

would it be loss making? Doesn't it make an operating profit every year?

This a very good question. The articles in "Flying in Ireland" appear to indicate that the debt cost is in excess of the operating profit.

JCX BXC · 07-11-2014 7:11pm

The cork situation is worsening, Cork has had less commercial movements that Shannon in the month of august and September. I understand that the 14 extra that Shannon has a day could be partly due to extra military and cargo flights but hardly all 14.
http://www.clarechampion.ie/commercial-traffic-in-right-direction/

rebs23 · 08-11-2014 10:36am

notharrypotter wrote: »

Aer Rianta master plan to redevelop Cork Airport.

Cork New Terminal
Dáil Éireann - Volume 521 - 20 June, 2000
Adjournment Debate. - Cork Airport Development.
Local TD's state current terminal no longer fit for purpose and there needs to be a new one.

Aer Rianta plans on hold at the time.

Work commences, Cork Airport History

Approximate breakdown of what was spent in millions
Terminal 170 RTE News
Ramp 11.5
Car park 15
Fire station no figure given.

So someone did spend €220 million in upgrading cork airport.

There is a figure of IR£40 for the business park in the business plan. but this would be historical by now.

Ah but they did even better. The deal was that the DAA would keep €110 million and Cork would get to keep everything and only have to pay €110 million for it.

This a very good question. The articles in "Flying in Ireland" appear to indicate that the debt cost is in excess of the operating profit.

Cork airport are still servicing the debt unlike Shannon. Give Cork airport a debt free status just like Shannon. And while you're at it throw in a property portfolio worth several hundred million euro! Cork airport did not get a deal anything like Shannon got.
It results in Shannon being able to charge zero per passenger and Cork airport losing flights to Shannon because of unfair competition as a result of a government decision.
Cork airport makes an operating profit. What is your solution to ensure the future viability of Cork airport or are you really interested in only defending the indefensible ?

notharrypotter · 08-11-2014 12:25pm

Cork airport are still servicing the debt

Yes but what level.

Sunday Business post Article.

I accept DAA kept €100 million of Shannon s debt which was Shannon's total debt.

Give Cork airport a debt free status just like Shannon.

My point is that the DAA offered Cork a higher amount of a write off in cash terms €110 million of the €220 million total.

The issue at hand at the time was how much debt could the DAA sustain and facilitate future expansion at Dublin from its own borrowing.

From the national perspective the borrowing ability of the DAA is critical.

Dublin airport is the main airport in Ireland and all focus will be on it.

Whatever scraps leftover will be shared (fought over) by the other airports.

So by leaving the DAA with a total debt of €220 million on their books without the assets (new terminal) would adversely restrict the DAA's ability to raise funds.

Remember the DAA is a commercial state organisation but receives no funding from the taxpayer. In fact its a net contributor to the government coffers.

The Dublin Airport Authority (DAA) did not pay a dividend last year and the last dividend the DAA made was €19.4m in 2009 – prior to that its dividend payouts totalled €6m in 2004 and €7.2m in 2003.

and while you're at it throw in a property portfolio worth several hundred million euro!

Have a look at the Sunday Business post article referenced above.

And the problem of crumbling infrastructure will not merely be confined to the new company’s aviation assets. 400 Shannon Development properties to be transferred to the airport “vary greatly in level of dilapidation and degradation suffered” and less than 50 per cent of them are currently let with no significant uplift anticipated, said Mazars, something that was also confirmed by other sources.
While some properties were maintained to a very modern and high tech specification, “some of the older assets in the original Shannon Free Zone will in all likelihood never be let again,” it said

Pig in a poke springs to mind.

. What is your solution to ensure the future viability of Cork airport

I do not have a magic wand to wave nor has the government.

The future of Cork/Shannon/Kerry/Waterford/Knock/Sligo/Donegal is more of the same.

As the economy gradually improves and the improvement spreads to the regions then I would expect Air Traffic to grow once more.

The national priority is now Dublin and this is not going to change.

At some stage the notional value of the outstanding debt of Cork will reach a level where the asset base of Dublin is sufficient to absorb it and facilitate future borrowings.

Then the notional value of the Cork terminal will be no longer needed.

When this point is reached Cork airport and the nearby business park will be bundled together and cast adrift. The template for this is already in place.

Both Cork and Shannon have embarked on staff reductions and cost cutting.

Whether this will be sufficient long term remains to be seen.

bmm · 08-11-2014 12:32pm

At least half of the flights I have been on to/from Cork get rerouted to Shannon due to the cross wind problems in Cork. I avoid Cork airport like the plague.

Maybe the airlines are coping on to this point.

corkonion · 08-11-2014 1:01pm

bmm wrote: »

At least half of the flights I have been on to/from Cork get rerouted to Shannon due to the cross wind problems in Cork. I avoid Cork airport like the plague.

Maybe the airlines are coping on to this point.

You must be extremely unlucky, Less than 1 in 100 of flights destined for Cork get diverted.

the beer revolu · 08-11-2014 1:38pm

bmm wrote: »

At least half of the flights I have been on to/from Cork get rerouted to Shannon due to the cross wind problems in Cork. I avoid Cork airport like the plague.

Maybe the airlines are coping on to this point.

I have never been diverted from Cork airport.

the beer revolu · 08-11-2014 1:38pm

bmm wrote: »

At least half of the flights I have been on to/from Cork get rerouted to Shannon due to the cross wind problems in Cork. I avoid Cork airport like the plague.

Maybe the airlines are coping on to this point.

I have never been diverted from Cork airport.

CB19Kevo · 08-11-2014 4:06pm

bmm wrote: »

At least half of the flights I have been on to/from Cork get rerouted to Shannon due to the cross wind problems in Cork. I avoid Cork airport like the plague.

Maybe the airlines are coping on to this point.

Of all the time's i have flown into Cork i have never been diverted,Fog used be a problem but i believe the new landing systems have reduced that issue.

rebs23 · 08-11-2014 4:10pm

So really notharrypotter what is your motivation for posting on here when really you seem only concerned with the DAA and Dublin airport and justifying the massive state subsidy that was given to Shannon.
It remains a fact irrespective of the so called crumbling state property portfolio simply given to Shannon and the complete debt write off given to Shannon this decision has completely undermined a state airport. It is resulting in Cork airport being unable to compete with the zero charge Shannon is now able to offer.
It is unfair competition and the state intervention to save Shannon was worth several hundred million euro no matter what way you look at it.
Cork Airport should get a similar deal.
Why can't it get a similar deal and why should it not get a similar deal?
The real reason seems to be a decision to prop up Shannon by the former Minister Varadkar as he needs a support base outside Dublin to get the leadership of FG.
The other reason is that the DAA need Cork Airport as an asset on its balance sheet after all the heavy investments in T2 Dublin and New terminal in Cork.
For someone who has no interest in Cork Airport you seem to have a keen interest in coming onto a Cork forum and not dealing with the real issue which is how can you justify giving one former state airport a subsidy worth several hundred million euro which results in another state airport being unable to compete as a result of that state subsidy?

Lack of new routes at Cork airport

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