Lack of new routes at Cork airport

Mumha · 05-11-2014 2:39pm

Carnacalla wrote: »

So why is it portrayed as a bigger crime when they do it to cork?

1. Because we have a far larger hinterland population, with far more multinational companies, requiring those routes, yet starved of them.

2. Ryanair pulled their flights out of SNN, where as in Cork they have a history of flooding a route to kill any opposition, which is a slightly different issue.

corkonion · 05-11-2014 2:56pm

Carnacalla wrote: »

So why is it portrayed as a bigger crime when they do it to cork?

Obviously because it is in the Cork City forum, where the average poster is concerned about the Airport in his/her city/county. This is not a Cork v Shannon thread, but the fact is, it appears that Shannon is starting to recover nicely without its debt and restrictions that the Daa placed upon it. We in Cork are very concerned about the direction (or lack of direction) that our local Airport is taking. Of course we are going to compare what is happening in Shannon.

JCX BXC · 05-11-2014 2:58pm

Mumha wrote: »

1. Because we have a far larger hinterland population, with far more multinational companies, requiring those routes, yet starved of them.

2. Ryanair pulled their flights out of SNN, where as in Cork they have a history of flooding a route to kill any opposition, which is a slightly different issue.

Limerick and galway have quite a few international companies that use snn.

KCAccidental · 05-11-2014 3:30pm

Carnacalla wrote: »

So why is it portrayed as a bigger crime when they do it to cork?

I suppose the bigger crime is that Cork had other airlines operating these routes for years only for Ryanair to flood these routes with cheap seats short term killing the other airlines and then pulling out again leaving cork with nothing.

JCX BXC · 05-11-2014 3:48pm

I will not make any more arguments. I just did not agree that Shannon got everything handed to them.

Cork-London Heathrow is back to 4 flights a week next summer.

Sephiroth_dude · 05-11-2014 4:05pm

Asking on behalf of my brother, Is still possible to fly cork to Dublin/ Dublin to cork?

JCX BXC · 05-11-2014 4:08pm

Sephiroth_dude wrote: »

Asking on behalf of my brother, Is still possible to fly cork to Dublin/ Dublin to cork?

No, But a route may be announced for commencement in April.

starlit · 05-11-2014 4:11pm

Why did Ryanair pull out of Shannon?

Sephiroth_dude · 05-11-2014 4:11pm

Carnacalla wrote: »

No, But a route may be announced for commencement in April.

Thanks

JCX BXC · 05-11-2014 4:13pm

doovdela wrote: »

Why did Ryanair pull out of Shannon?

Because charges were too high according to them.

rebs23 · 05-11-2014 4:17pm

Carnacalla wrote: »

I will not make any more arguments. I just did not agree that Shannon got everything handed to them.

Cork-London Heathrow is back to 4 flights a week next summer.

I see you made another comment and it is true to say that Shannon got a lot simply handed to them (€100 Million euro debt wiped out and a huge property portfolio handed to them worth several hundred million euro in total).
Give Cork a similar deal and let us compete fairly.

JCX BXC · 05-11-2014 4:22pm

rebs23 wrote: »

I see you made another comment and it is true to say that Shannon got a lot simply handed to them (€100 Million euro debt wiped out and a huge property portfolio handed to them worth several hundred million euro in total).
Give Cork a similar deal and let us compete fairly.

Are you trying to start an argument?

The property is completely invalid as the airport will not gain anything from the property.

Sure cork has not got the debt wiped that Shannon has, but Shannon does not get anything handed to it. The reason it had the debt was because of the DAA horribly mis-managing it. Leave it at that, it is a thread about cork airport and not Shannon.

Cork should get the debt wiped, I never disagreed with that.

rebs23 · 05-11-2014 4:54pm

Carnacalla wrote: »

Are you trying to start an argument?

The property is completely invalid as the airport will not gain anything from the property.

Sure cork has not got the debt wiped that Shannon has, but Shannon does not get anything handed to it. The reason it had the debt was because of the DAA horribly mis-managing it. Leave it at that, it is a thread about cork airport and not Shannon.

Cork should get the debt wiped, I never disagreed with that.

Fair enough. I would disagree about the property bit though as the holding company control the property and there all sorts of ways a subsidiary can benefit from that commercially. While it is a thread about Cork Airport the decisions in relation to Shannon by the Government are having a significant effect on Cork Airport.

Mumha · 05-11-2014 4:58pm

Carnacalla wrote: »

Limerick and galway have quite a few international companies that use snn.

Few is right, a fraction of what is based in the Cork area. Anyway whether SNN is there or not, Cork has a need that is not being catered for.

JCX BXC · 05-11-2014 5:00pm

Mumha wrote: »

Few is right, a fraction of what is based in the Cork area. Anyway whether SNN is there or not, Cork has a need that is not being catered for.

Can you prove this though? I doubt Aer Lingus would of pulled the Brussels route if there was demand from the "many international companies" in cork.

moyners · 05-11-2014 5:11pm

The reason no one used the Brussels route was because it only ran a few days of the week. I know where I work at least, that we would gladly have used it a lot more except it never suited. It was easier to go from Dublin or transfer somewhere else than have to stay an extra day in Brussels. It's like that with a lot of the routes Aer Lingus put on. They're not frequent enough for people to depend on them. I suppose to be fair to the airlines it's a bit of chicken and egg situation but you would think they would have a daily flight to start with to drum up a bit of regular users, instead of starting with a schedule that's not much use to the majority and then wondering why its not getting the numbers.

I should say that's just IMHO and our experience at work

Masala · 05-11-2014 8:26pm

rebs23 wrote: »

The simple fact going back to the original topic here is that Cork is losing out due to the massive State subsidy that was effectively granted to Shannon which included a debt write off of over €100 Million and a property portfolio worth several hundred million euro.
Shannon are therefore able to charge zero or near zero airport charges as a result of this Government intervention to save Shannon and airlines are pulling out of Cork airport to move to Shannon as a result of this.
This is the issue along with continuing Government support to other airports in the province including Kerry and Waterford.
Cork Airport is facing severe and unfair competition as a result of these government decisions.
Let there be fair competition. No amount of spin doctoring can change the facts around the massive state aid/subsidy to Shannon and the impact it is having on Cork Airport.

.... this old chestnut again. Remind us who covers the losses in Cork. The DAA props up on their annual losses. Their results get swallowed into the DAA accounts and hence brings down the profits of the DAA being generated by Dublin. Smaller profits in the DAA means less dividend to the Government and that's taking money our of the back pocket of the PAYE man. That to me is the same as Government support - through the back door. Kerr, Donegal, Knock & Waterford have to ask for it.... Cork gets it from head office who deduct it from the Government before it hands over its cheque.

Mumha · 05-11-2014 9:53pm

Carnacalla wrote: »

Can you prove this though? I doubt Aer Lingus would of pulled the Brussels route if there was demand from the "many international companies" in cork.

Multinational companies have consistently requested American routes from Cork. Aer Lingus (and Ryanair for that matter) have Summer routes and Winter Routes for the aircraft they base in Cork. Any more and they would have to base more aircraft down here, which they refuse to do. Barcelona is another route they pull that there is demand for.

JCX BXC · 05-11-2014 9:57pm

Mumha wrote: »

Multinational companies have consistently requested American routes from Cork. Aer Lingus (and Ryanair for that matter) have Summer routes and Winter Routes for the aircraft they base in Cork. Any more and they would have to base more aircraft down here, which they refuse to do. Barcelona is another route they pull that there is demand for.

In my opinion, and I stress that, I would think if their was a demand in an American route from cork, United Airlines would probably have established one at this stage.

Mumha · 05-11-2014 9:58pm

Masala wrote: »

.... this old chestnut again. Remind us who covers the losses in Cork. The DAA props up on their annual losses. Their results get swallowed into the DAA accounts and hence brings down the profits of the DAA being generated by Dublin. Smaller profits in the DAA means less dividend to the Government and that's taking money our of the back pocket of the PAYE man. That to me is the same as Government support - through the back door. Kerr, Donegal, Knock & Waterford have to ask for it.... Cork gets it from head office who deduct it from the Government before it hands over its cheque.

The DAA tried to cut Cork loose with a €110m hanging around their necks. A debt the DAA reneged on. I've given the answer earlier on this thread as to why the DAA did this. Your post is spurious and incorrect.

It suits the DAA to essentially mothball Cork Airport, in order to drive traffic up to their T2 monstrosity, thereby artificially increasing revenue from the South West regions punters.

Mumha · 05-11-2014 10:00pm

Carnacalla wrote: »

In my opinion, and I stress that, I would think if their was a demand in an American route from cork, United Airlines would probably have established one at this stage.

Cork Airport are not helped by thick as shiit airport management .... lifers unable and unwilling to rock the boat. I know some of them, and if I controlled the airport, they'd be first out the door.

JCX BXC · 05-11-2014 10:04pm

Mumha wrote: »

Cork Airport are not helped by thick as shiit airport management .... lifers unable and unwilling to rock the boat. I know some of them, and if I controlled the airport, they'd be first out the door.

What does the cork airport authority actually tho? The DAA control charges, who makes the deals with the airlines?

Their may be a route to the us via Dublin from next April, that will be at corks gain. (And Shannon's loss)

Masala · 06-11-2014 1:11am

Mumha wrote: »

The DAA tried to cut Cork loose with a €110m hanging around their necks. A debt the DAA reneged on. I've given the answer earlier on this thread as to why the DAA did this. Your post is spurious and incorrect.

It suits the DAA to essentially mothball Cork Airport, in order to drive traffic up to their T2 monstrosity, thereby artificially increasing revenue from the South West regions punters.

... don't think so!! I get annoyed by quotes that Regional Airports should not be getting Government Support and that this support is hurting Cork Airport by unfair competition. The fact is - Cork Airport are government supported as well. Sure if Kerry & Waterford were in the DAA.... they wouldn't need direct government support.

And how can anyone on a Cork Airport thread feel threathened by Waterford Airport

hfallada · 06-11-2014 1:18am

Mumha wrote: »

Cork Airport are not helped by thick as shiit airport management .... lifers unable and unwilling to rock the boat. I know some of them, and if I controlled the airport, they'd be first out the door.

Maybe the population is holding them back? The great Dublin area has 1,8 million people. Dublin also has a significant amount of Irelands non-national population and a large proportion of foreign companies in Ireland. Maybe Dublin has a majority of Irelands international flights, because the demand is there. Also Transaltantic flight growth is currently being created by Aer Lingus flying into ****ty regional UK airports. People in these cities are now connecting in Dublin instead of London.

We live in capitalist country. If there is demands for new routes from Cork, airlines will supply it. Businesses exist to make money. If they think they can make money from cork. They will supply new routes

Dannyboy83 · 06-11-2014 1:31am

hfallada wrote: »

We live in capitalist country. If there is demands for new routes from Cork, airlines will supply it. Businesses exist to make money. If they think they can make money from cork. They will supply new routes

Even capitalists have regulations against monopolies tho, Sherman anti-trust and so on.

Most of the posters here/city/county/board and Cork Chamber president agree with you and believe Cork should be allowed to compete freely and openly in the market.

http://www.irishexaminer.com/business/aib-chief-duffy-says-proposed-limitations-by-central-bank-on-mortgage-lending-are-right-293397.htmlMeanwhile
Cork Chamber president Gillian Keating accused the Government and Dublin Airport Authority of “handcuffing” Cork Airport

The population is not the issue - Cork a population of 518k, while the Munster area has 1.246 mil

JCX BXC · 06-11-2014 1:39am

Dannyboy83 wrote: »

The population is not the issue - Cork a population of 518k, while the Munster area has 1.246 mil

Irish examiner articles have an extreme bias towards cork airport, I wouldn't be surprised with anything they accuse the DAA of.

The Munster region, does that include Limerick and Clare? Nor many ppl from Limerick and Clare would use cork, I wouldn't consider them in a catchment area.

rebs23 · 06-11-2014 10:39am

hfallada wrote: »

We live in capitalist country. If there is demands for new routes from Cork, airlines will supply it. Businesses exist to make money. If they think they can make money from cork. They will supply new routes

Oh please let us compete on the exact same basis as the other airports in our region that is exactly what we are asking for!
Unfortunately in this capitalist country our government rescued Shannon Airport by wiping out their debt of over €100 Million and giving the holding company for Shannon Airport a property portfolio which is worth several hundred million euro.
Fair dues to the lobbyists for Shannon but all we are asking for is the exact same deal.
This massive deal for Shannon allows them to charge zero or near zero per passenger which results in airlines (mainly RyanAir) move their routes from Cork to Shannon.

rebs23 · 06-11-2014 10:45am

Masala wrote: »

... don't think so!! I get annoyed by quotes that Regional Airports should not be getting Government Support and that this support is hurting Cork Airport by unfair competition. The fact is - Cork Airport are government supported as well. Sure if Kerry & Waterford were in the DAA.... they wouldn't need direct government support.

And how can anyone on a Cork Airport thread feel threathened by Waterford Airport

The bottom line is that Munster and the South of Ireland generally simply cannot sustain 4 Airports so where are the priorities?

corkonion · 06-11-2014 11:39am

rebs23 wrote: »

The bottom line is that Munster and the South of Ireland generally simply cannot sustain 4 Airports so where are the priorities?

There is some validity in this, but nobody expects all four Airports to be full international Airports, or that they all are open 24/7 with planes queuing to take off and land, but I believe that there is scope for them all to remain viable with strong structures and planning.
This thread is titled "Lack of new routes at Cork airport", and there is clearly a lack of those and a reduction or elimination of many more. Being under the management of your biggest competitor (the DAA) does not help, Competing with an airport in the same region (shannon) that has been given a complete debt writedown and a commercial property portfolio does not help.
I don't see how anyone can argue otherwise, and I don't know why they would try to.

CB19Kevo · 06-11-2014 11:47am

rebs23 wrote: »

The bottom line is that Munster and the South of Ireland generally simply cannot sustain 4 Airports so where are the priorities?

Kerry had 306,042 passengers in 2013.
Waterford had 28,168 so there may be an issue there.

Lack of new routes at Cork airport

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