Western Rail Corridor (all disused sections)

MayoForSam · 17-01-2013 9:20am

Article in this week's Tuam Herald referring to certain county councillors complete reticence towards a proposal by Energise Tuam to create a greenway in the town along the old railway alignment to serve as a civic amenity and to promote walking and cycling tourism in the area: http://www.tuamherald.ie/2013/01/16/tuam-greenway-plan-runs-foul-of-rail-corridor-backers/

Just typical really, the council have their heads in the sand completely. I for one will be contacting Galway CoCo to make my feelings known but it will probably fall on deaf ears.

Just last weekend myself and the family had to drive for 20 minutes outside Tuam to find a suitable area for an afternoon stroll. These lads sitting around the council chamber obviously don't get out much or see the public need to make best use out of the decrepit rail line.

eastwest · 17-01-2013 10:43am

MayoForSam wrote: »

Article in this week's Tuam Herald referring to certain county councillors complete reticence towards a proposal by Energise Tuam to create a greenway in the town along the old railway alignment to serve as a civic amenity and to promote walking and cycling tourism in the area: http://www.tuamherald.ie/2013/01/16/tuam-greenway-plan-runs-foul-of-rail-corridor-backers/

Just typical really, the council have their heads in the sand completely. I for one will be contacting Galway CoCo to make my feelings known but it will probably fall on deaf ears.

Just last weekend myself and the family had to drive for 20 minutes outside Tuam to find a suitable area for an afternoon stroll. These lads sitting around the council chamber obviously don't get out much or see the public need to make best use out of the decrepit rail line.

That's one of the problems; a lot of the public representatives in ireland are couch potatoes whose only exercise is shaking hands at funerals.
One Mayo councillor (and member of the inter county railway committee) commented last year about the WRC and tourism -- he said that "they" (touring walkers and cyclists) should be happy enough with Coillte roads and the Castlebar ring road.
Can you imagine a German tourist deciding to come to ireland to cycle around and around the Castlebar ring road? Unfortunately that is the intellectual level we are operating at, and we need to be aware of that if we want to see progress. There's not a lot of point in trying to explain 'complicated' concepts to these guys, we have to spell it out slowly, using short words and small sentences.

The Idyl Race · 17-01-2013 12:05pm

MayoForSam wrote: »

Article in this week's Tuam Herald referring to certain county councillors complete reticence towards a proposal by Energise Tuam to create a greenway in the town along the old railway alignment to serve as a civic amenity and to promote walking and cycling tourism in the area: http://www.tuamherald.ie/2013/01/16/tuam-greenway-plan-runs-foul-of-rail-corridor-backers/

Just typical really, the council have their heads in the sand completely. I for one will be contacting Galway CoCo to make my feelings known but it will probably fall on deaf ears.

Just last weekend myself and the family had to drive for 20 minutes outside Tuam to find a suitable area for an afternoon stroll. These lads sitting around the council chamber obviously don't get out much or see the public need to make best use out of the decrepit rail line.

So, destroying any chance of using Tuam-Athenry-Galway as a commuter route is the only option?

The phrase cutting your nose off to spite your face comes to mind.

westtip · 17-01-2013 12:38pm

MayoForSam wrote: »

Article in this week's Tuam Herald referring to certain county councillors complete reticence towards a proposal by Energise Tuam to create a greenway in the town along the old railway alignment to serve as a civic amenity and to promote walking and cycling tourism in the area: http://www.tuamherald.ie/2013/01/16/tuam-greenway-plan-runs-foul-of-rail-corridor-backers/

Just typical really, the council have their heads in the sand completely. I for one will be contacting Galway CoCo to make my feelings known but it will probably fall on deaf ears.

Just last weekend myself and the family had to drive for 20 minutes outside Tuam to find a suitable area for an afternoon stroll. These lads sitting around the council chamber obviously don't get out much or see the public need to make best use out of the decrepit rail line.

The more that contact them - the more the message gets through - yes it may fall on death ears, get your cousins, siblings, friends and parents to contact them - network the idea - bombard them with messages from all directions from as many people as you can to get the message home. The vested interests need to be challenged, again and again and again.

eastwest · 17-01-2013 12:39pm

Allowing the Athenry Tuam route to lie idle for another one or two decades will achieve one thing only -- it will allow the land to fall into private ownership as has happened further north.
A greenway will preserve the route in public ownership until such time (if ever) as a railway becomes a viable option. At that point, the construction of a railway could include a parallel greenway as is common elsewhere. Keeping the route in the ownership of CIE in the meantime, with permissive access for users, would protect the interests of any future rail initiative.
The evidence of doing nothing is there, just a few miles up the line, with barbed wire everywhere and tracks covered in grass and tarmac by people who know that the a railway will never happen and who want to capture the abandoned ground for themselves. They are succeeding and have succeeded, and Athenry-Tuam will go the same way.

westtip · 17-01-2013 1:34pm

The Idyl Race wrote: »

So, destroying any chance of using Tuam-Athenry-Galway as a commuter route is the only option?

The phrase cutting your nose off to spite your face comes to mind.

Destroying what commuter route? How many people would actually use this route, the service levels needed to make it a realistic commuter route would mean the subvention would be astronomical - why can't the Sustrans solution be used in Ireland? Quite simply Sustrans have taken old rail alignments in the UK from Railtrack - who have retained ownership and a legal arrangement has been put in place that a railway will have precedence on the line when and if they can be built, why can't we adopt this simple attitude in Ireland?

Why would a greenway destroy the possibility of a railway in the future - if a greenway protected the route - why not the option of a greenway now (that is affordable) and railway with parallel greenway in the future. we all know the railway is not affordable, likely or even needed now. Why do those that espouse the railway oppose the greenway idea when it will protect the route for ever and when a railway is affordable, likely and needed it can be built.

What's wrong with a new idea? What are these councillors afraid of?

eastwest · 17-01-2013 2:33pm

westtip wrote: »

Why would a greenway destroy the possibility of a railway in the future - if a greenway protected the route - why not the option of a greenway now (that is affordable) and railway with parallel greenway in the future. we all know the railway is not affordable, likely or even needed now. Why do those that espouse the railway oppose the greenway idea when it will protect the route for ever and when a railway is affordable, likely and needed it can be built.

What's wrong with a new idea? What are these councillors afraid of?

I can answer that for you; a significant number of councillors have a number of problems with the notion of a greenway.
Firstly, they have promised that trains will run and that the perceived unfairness whereby Dublin has the Dart and the Luas and Galway/Mayo/Sligo has 'nothing' will be sorted out. This was a great unachievable promise that could be recylced at every opportunity without ever having to deliver; they can always blame 'Dublin' for lack of progress.
Secondly, many of the councillors that actually oppose this kind of sustainable development are members of the inter-county railway committee, a talking-shop that has given them access to a gravy train including the conference circuit for more than two decades. Putting this public asset to use would bring all that to an end.
The third issue is that none of them understands the concept of cycling and walking tourism. As far as they are concerned, cyclists should be happy to have a little short path to go for a cycle on for half an hour; they just don't understand that somebody might spend a week cycling around the countryside, or that families might like to spend a day on bikes away from traffic. It is simply outside the scope of their experience.
Everybody should make a point of attending at least one of the monthly meetings of their local authority; it is an education that should be undertaken before voting for any of them. The lack of knowledge and understanding of even simple issues, and the pedantic nature of such meetings is something to behold.

MayoForSam · 17-01-2013 3:39pm

The Idyl Race wrote: »

So, destroying any chance of using Tuam-Athenry-Galway as a commuter route is the only option?

The phrase cutting your nose off to spite your face comes to mind.

I believe the Tuam greenway proposal was for the northern end leading out of Tuam, which runs in parallel with a populated area as far as Kilbannon and would be a very useful local amenity.

There was no mention of a greenway on the Athenry section out of Tuam (AFAIK), this section is in relatively good condition. However, the upcoming construction of the M17 would cast even more doubt on the viability of the Tuam-Athenry commuter line.

end of the road · 17-01-2013 4:32pm

eastwest wrote: »

Allowing the Athenry Tuam route to lie idle for another one or two decades will achieve one thing only -- it will allow the land to fall into private ownership as has happened further north.
A greenway will preserve the route in public ownership until such time (if ever) as a railway becomes a viable option. At that point, the construction of a railway could include a parallel greenway as is common elsewhere. Keeping the route in the ownership of CIE in the meantime, with permissive access for users, would protect the interests of any future rail initiative.
The evidence of doing nothing is there, just a few miles up the line, with barbed wire everywhere and tracks covered in grass and tarmac by people who know that the a railway will never happen and who want to capture the abandoned ground for themselves. They are succeeding and have succeeded, and Athenry-Tuam will go the same way.

exactly, however legislation needs to be brought in that people who take possession of land where a railway once ran can have that possession forceabley removed whether it be tarmac or any other obstruction, it will be back dated as far back as possible, those who take such possession won't be able to apeal through the courts either, old rail routes should be greenway only unless a railway becomes viable again, such legislation would solve the problems and allow the greenway to go ahead on the WRC without having to buy back land that was technically stolen from the people.

westtip · 17-01-2013 7:41pm

MayoForSam wrote: »

There was no mention of a greenway on the Athenry section out of Tuam (AFAIK), this section is in relatively good condition. However, the upcoming construction of the M17 would cast even more doubt on the viability of the Tuam-Athenry commuter line.

Its been said before the fact that even in these harsh times, the M17 from Gort north of Tuam is pencilled in as one of the few infrastructure projects that may get the green light really says it all about the future of the so called Western Rail Corridor. In the meantime as EastWest points out, we will have to sit and watch as more land gets snatched from under our noses, and our councillors continue to ignore the reality of life. Only in Ireland.

InchicoreDude · 17-01-2013 8:36pm

Its been said before the fact that even in these harsh times, the M17 from Gort north of Tuam is pencilled in as one of the few infrastructure projects that may get the green light really says it all about the future of the so called Western Rail Corridor.

Somewhat off topic but is there really a need for a motorway Tuam - Sligo??? Most of those towns are by-passed already. Will a motorway actually result in significant improvement here???

MayoForSam · 17-01-2013 8:59pm

InchicoreDude wrote: »

Somewhat off topic but is there really a need for a motorway Tuam - Sligo??? Most of those towns are by-passed already. Will a motorway actually result in significant improvement here???

M17 motorway will only be between Tuam and Athenry, dual-carriageway would probably suffice though (as it would have had for a lot of other motorways already built).

The Idyl Race · 18-01-2013 1:13am

westtip wrote: »

Its been said before the fact that even in these harsh times, the M17 from Gort north of Tuam is pencilled in as one of the few infrastructure projects that may get the green light really says it all about the future of the so called Western Rail Corridor. In the meantime as EastWest points out, we will have to sit and watch as more land gets snatched from under our noses, and our councillors continue to ignore the reality of life. Only in Ireland.

The M17 will lead to much buckleppin' and yahooing from the gombeen men making a buck off the taxpayer for overvalued land. Not much else.

http://archive.galwayindependent.com/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=5505&Itemid=82

I'm sure An Taisce, scourge of the gombeens has a view on all this. Must ask for the crack.

The Idyl Race · 18-01-2013 1:33am

InchicoreDude wrote: »

Somewhat off topic but is there really a need for a motorway Tuam - Sligo??? Most of those towns are by-passed already. Will a motorway actually result in significant improvement here???

Brave man, that's heresy here, apparently

corktina · 18-01-2013 8:12am

think so? I'd agree with that man for one ,Heretic that I am...

monument · 18-01-2013 9:01am

InchicoreDude wrote: »

Somewhat off topic but is there really a need for a motorway Tuam - Sligo??? Most of those towns are by-passed already. Will a motorway actually result in significant improvement here???

MayoForSam wrote: »

M17 motorway will only be between Tuam and Athenry, dual-carriageway would probably suffice though (as it would have had for a lot of other motorways already built).

Agreed with MayoForSam, and north of Tuam it's not even dual carrageway which is needed -- not everywhere at least, but there's a desperate need for improvements.

There's a many or more places not bypassed as that are already bypassed.

westtip · 18-01-2013 11:39am

monument wrote: »

Agreed with MayoForSam, and north of Tuam it's not even dual carrageway which is needed -- not everywhere at least, but there's a desperate need for improvements.

There's a many or more places not bypassed as that are already bypassed.

This road being improved is really the big transport project that is needed for a north south transport axis from Derry to Cork, the infamously named Atlantic Road Corridor in T21. It doesn't need to be overspecced motorway, dual carriageway would be fine, or even the quality of the national roads with single lane and wide hard shoulder, a seamless safe road is what's needed - contrary to post a few posts back this road still has a number of towns and villages with heavy traffic going through, Ballindine, Claregalway, Tuberrcurry, Charlestown to name a few - north of Sligo the N17 road has some very bad patches, its not just about bypasses but the actual dangerous nature of the road. Remember those three students killed on the N17 2 or 3 years back on an infamous section, and other tragic accidents on this road over the years. Replacing this road with a safe seamless route will save lives - which by the way saves a huge amount of money - the cost of a single death in an RTA can be astronomical. This subject is not off subject for the WRC, in fact its the very reason the WRC will never happen north of Athenry, the real public appetite is for the road to be improved, from both public and businesses - including public transport providers who run big things called buses, and on good roads, Express buses. Greenway or not on the WRC the real issue that kills off the WRC forever is the development of the N17/18

InchicoreDude · 18-01-2013 11:41am

monument wrote: »

Agreed with MayoForSam, and north of Tuam it's not even dual carrageway which is needed -- not everywhere at least, but there's a desperate need for improvements.

There's a many or more places not bypassed as that are already bypassed.

What places are bypassed / which are not? Its a while since I have driven to Sligo so I dont know. But there is a serious stretch of road after Ballindine [bypassing Claremorris / Knock] that I dont think a motorway would actually improve much upon. Same with between Milltown - Tuam now that they created a new road there.

The Idyl Race · 18-01-2013 11:50am

westtip wrote: »

This road being improved is really the big transport project that is needed for a north south transport axis from Derry to Cork, the infamously named Atlantic Road Corridor in T21. It doesn't need to be overspecced motorway, dual carriageway would be fine, or even the quality of the national roads with single lane and wide hard shoulder, a seamless safe road is what's needed - contrary to post a few posts back this road still has a number of towns and villages with heavy traffic going through, Ballindine, Claregalway, Tuberrcurry, Charlestown to name a few - north of Sligo the N17 road has some very bad patches, its not just about bypasses but the actual dangerous nature of the road. Remember those three students killed on the N17 2 or 3 years back on an infamous section, and other tragic accidents on this road over the years. Replacing this road with a safe seamless route will save lives - which by the way saves a huge amount of money - the cost of a single death in an RTA can be astronomical. This subject is not off subject for the WRC, in fact its the very reason the WRC will never happen north of Athenry, the real public appetite is for the road to be improved, from both public and businesses - including public transport providers who run big things called buses, and on good roads, Express buses. Greenway or not on the WRC the real issue that kills off the WRC forever is the development of the N17/18

The funny thing is that it seems that everything leads back to killing off the WRC at all costs. We've had cycle tourism, road deaths, motorway development, gardens and garages built across alignments, "exhiliarating" cycles through bogs, making livings for bus companies, uber Catholics and god knows what else chucked at the concept of not developing the railways at all costs - but you haven't killed the idea yet. That must be very frustrating.

InchicoreDude · 18-01-2013 12:01pm

westtip wrote: »

This road being improved is really the big transport project that is needed for a north south transport axis from Derry to Cork, the infamously named Atlantic Road Corridor in T21. It doesn't need to be overspecced motorway, dual carriageway would be fine, or even the quality of the national roads with single lane and wide hard shoulder, a seamless safe road is what's needed - contrary to post a few posts back this road still has a number of towns and villages with heavy traffic going through, Ballindine, Claregalway, Tuberrcurry, Charlestown to name a few - north of Sligo the N17 road has some very bad patches, its not just about bypasses but the actual dangerous nature of the road. Remember those three students killed on the N17 2 or 3 years back on an infamous section, and other tragic accidents on this road over the years. Replacing this road with a safe seamless route will save lives - which by the way saves a huge amount of money - the cost of a single death in an RTA can be astronomical. This subject is not off subject for the WRC, in fact its the very reason the WRC will never happen north of Athenry, the real public appetite is for the road to be improved, from both public and businesses - including public transport providers who run big things called buses, and on good roads, Express buses. Greenway or not on the WRC the real issue that kills off the WRC forever is the development of the N17/18

No, No, you are mis-interpreting my post. I absolutely agree that some parts of the route need improvement. The section between Ballindine & Milltown [where those girls were killed] is one. But there is currently work on improving that portion of the route anyway. And after they finish that, will a motorway actually improve that section? After doing that, is there actually a motorway required between Tuam & Charlestown?
For the money that it will require to build a motorway between those two towns, I am not so sure that you will get any major improvement from what is there already.....[I am not advocating for the western rail corridor either by the way. I dont think that is a good idea either!].

westtip · 18-01-2013 12:44pm

InchicoreDude wrote: »

No, No, you are mis-interpreting my post. I absolutely agree that some parts of the route need improvement. The section between Ballindine & Milltown [where those girls were killed] is one. But there is currently work on improving that portion of the route anyway. And after they finish that, will a motorway actually improve that section? After doing that, is there actually a motorway required between Tuam & Charlestown?
For the money that it will require to build a motorway between those two towns, I am not so sure that you will get any major improvement from what is there already.....[I am not advocating for the western rail corridor either by the way. I dont think that is a good idea either!].

No like you I don't really believe the route requires motorway, a safe seamless road - the Claremorris bypass standard would be fine, and that section certainly does not need motorway - although I think the NRA now aims for standard DC rather than the single carriage with wide hard shoulder like that road. The ideal would be DC similar to the Dromod Roosky bypass/new section of the N4. Its more about safety, predictability of journey times for supply chain logistics and bus timetables.

The Idyl Race wrote: »

The funny thing is that it seems that everything leads back to killing off the WRC at all costs. We've had cycle tourism, road deaths, motorway development, gardens and garages built across alignments, "exhiliarating" cycles through bogs, making livings for bus companies, uber Catholics and god knows what else chucked at the concept of not developing the railways at all costs - but you haven't killed the idea yet. That must be very frustrating.

Its not really about killing off the WRC at all costs, the WRC is such an unnecessary vanity project it kills itself off - or at least will kill itself off when it is finally put to the sword by some politician with the guts to say it as it is. As for your comments about "exhiliarating cycles through bogs" You would be amazed how many people would enjoy the peace and quiet of exactly what you describe instead of trying to compete with 8 axle trucks on the N17; each to their own; perhaps the good ladies of all the Sligo and Mayo towns the greenway will eventually run through will also enjoy such peace and quiet on their evening speed walk, or whilst taking their wee ones out in the buggy whilst the 5 year old safely pootles along in front or behind them on their wee bike, or taking an aged parent out for a bit of piece and quiet in a wheelchair, or perhaps teenage boys and girls may discover the joy that many of us had as children of cycling in safety on a traffic free route. The Greenway idea is about quality of life for people on the route every bit as much as it is about saving our cycling tourism industry. Could you tell me exactly what the rationale of the WRC is because its been a while since somebody spun out the old balanced regional development arguments and the need for a train with 8 passengers on each train 6 of whom have free travel passes.....Lets here the arguments in favour of the WRC once more can we???

Of course we haven't killed the idea off yet, because the expense claim forms of the Western Inter county railway committee keep falling in the in the in tray of the finance departments of counties Galway, Mayo, Sligo, Roscommon and Clare, and lets face it - the idea of carrying on talking about the Western Rail Corridor, has become a money spinner for some politicians in its own right, and at county management level there is also a vested interest in keeping the concept running - so planners can keep researching it and producing pointless .pdf documents with fine visuals and wonderful bullet pointed reports about balanced regional development and arrows on maps pointing to gateways and hubs; and all the people producing these great images on screens of a world that will never exist have never written an invoice in their lives, they pick up the pay check every month and pretend what they do has meaning......they have no idea of the real world, cocooned as they are in a make believe world of reports that come to nothing...

end of the road · 18-01-2013 5:21pm

westtip wrote: »

the real public appetite is for the road to be improved

theirs no such thing as "public appetite" in this country, its "sit there, take it, get on with it, do nothing"

westtip wrote: »

public transport providers who run big things called buses, and on good roads, Express buses.

exactly, the private bus operators who nobody cares about and who it would be much easier to get a car anyway instead of them horid old things yet said operators wish to see the destruction of our railways at all costs so they can get the crums from the table, but fear not as one day IE will get somebody who wants to improve our railways for the good of the people and who will do so at all costs.

westtip wrote: »

predictability of journey times for supply chain logistics and bus timetables.

ah i see, here we are again, its about the road hauliers and the private bus operators and other vested interests who wish to see the destruction of our railways to get whatevr little crums left when people decide to take their cars instead and who will probably get what they want because the politicians won't tell them to get stuffed and because said politicians have a vendetta against our railways.

westtip wrote: »

As for your comments about "exhiliarating cycles through bogs" You would be amazed how many people would enjoy the peace and quiet of exactly what you describe instead of trying to compete with 8 axle trucks on the N17; each to their own; perhaps the good ladies of all the Sligo and Mayo towns the greenway will eventually run through will also enjoy such peace and quiet on their evening speed walk, or whilst taking their wee ones out in the buggy whilst the 5 year old safely pootles along in front or behind them on their wee bike, or taking an aged parent out for a bit of piece and quiet in a wheelchair, or perhaps teenage boys and girls may discover the joy that many of us had as children of cycling in safety on a traffic free route.

we both know very few locals will use it, they will say they will but in truth won't, it will be foreign tourists and hopefully we will get many of them.

westtip wrote: »

The Greenway idea is about quality of life for people on the route every bit as much as it is about saving our cycling tourism industry.

and thats great, but until attitudes change from the irish in relation to such facilities usership from irish people will probably be low.

westtip wrote: »

the expense claim forms of the Western Inter county railway committee keep falling in the in the in tray of the finance departments of counties Galway, Mayo, Sligo, Roscommon and Clare

you keep going on about this but what are you doing about it? if their was a Western Inter county greenway committee which could clame expenses and you were a part of it would you not clame? if not you would probably be the only one not to clame

westtip wrote: »

lets face it - the idea of carrying on talking about the Western Rail Corridor, has become a money spinner for some politicians in its own right, and at county management level there is also a vested interest in keeping the concept running - so planners can keep researching it and producing pointless .pdf documents with fine visuals and wonderful bullet pointed reports about balanced regional development and arrows on maps pointing to gateways and hubs; and all the people producing these great images on screens of a world that will never exist have never written an invoice in their lives, they pick up the pay check every month and pretend what they do has meaning......they have no idea of the real world, cocooned as they are in a make believe world of reports that come to nothing...

let them at it, their entitled to do so even if we don't agree.

westtip · 18-01-2013 5:50pm

end of the road wrote: »

theirs no such thing as "public appetite" in this country, its "sit there, take it, get on with it, do nothing"

exactly, the private bus operators who nobody cares about and who it would be much easier to get a car anyway instead of them horid old things yet said operators wish to see the destruction of our railways at all costs so they can get the crums from the table, but fear not as one day IE will get somebody who wants to improve our railways for the good of the people and who will do so at all costs.

ah i see, here we are again, its about the road hauliers and the private bus operators and other vested interests who wish to see the destruction of our railways to get whatevr little crums left when people decide to take their cars instead and who will probably get what they want because the politicians won't tell them to get stuffed and because said politicians have a vendetta against our railways.

we both know very few locals will use it, they will say they will but in truth won't, it will be foreign tourists and hopefully we will get many of them.

and thats great, but until attitudes change from the irish in relation to such facilities usership from irish people will probably be low.

you keep going on about this but what are you doing about it? if their was a Western Inter county greenway committee which could clame expenses and you were a part of it would you not clame? if not you would probably be the only one not to clame

let them at it, their entitled to do so even if we don't agree.

OMG. Do you really believe there is no such thing as public appetite?

Do you really believe its all about lining the pockets of private bus companies?

Do you really believe local people would not use this facility - I suggest you go look at the GWG and see how many locals use it for their own leisure purposes you should look at the poor unfortunates taking an evening walk for leisure on the Claremorrs bypass, Do you really believe the members of the Tuam Greenway Group would not use this facility? Did you read what the people of Swinford put in the document Swinford Vision of the future. Local people will use such a facility so please don't ever assume my thoughts or anyone elses when you said "we both know very few locals will use it" I am sorry but you do not speak for my opinions, however based the WRC southern branch line I think its a safe assumption very few people will use the northern branch line. The facts of life in the west of Ireland is we are totally road dependent for supply chain logistics and a toy railway won't change this position. I know that - I am not sure if you do. What's all this nonsense about lining the pockets of private bus operators, if they offer a good service and make a profit whats wrong with that?

As for the gravy train....not sure any of us will ever stop that one.

end of the road · 18-01-2013 6:40pm

westtip wrote: »

OMG. Do you really believe there is no such thing as public appetite?

in this country, yes i believe so, their are some exceptions but their more exception then the rule.

westtip wrote: »

Do you really believe its all about lining the pockets of private bus companies?

do i believe what is? the greenway campaign, no, but i do believe in general the lack of government will to force IE to run the railways properly and the refusal to give more money to IE during the good times and to force them to spend it on improving speeds to the highest possible speed on each line and the lack of opening the railways up to allow private operators operate should they want to is to do with lining the pockets of vested interests dead set on the destruction of our railways.

westtip wrote: »

What's all this nonsense about lining the pockets of private bus operators, if they offer a good service and make a profit whats wrong with that?

whats wrong with it is that their lobbiests have a vendetta against our railways and want to see them destroyed

westtip wrote: »

Do you really believe local people would not use this facility

i believe some may but many will say they will but won't.

monument · 18-01-2013 7:05pm

Around Mayo, Galway and Sligo, there's a strong public appetite for N17 improvements.

At least it is strong among those who travel from Mayo to Galway, Galway to Sligo etc etc.

foggy_lad · 18-01-2013 8:03pm

monument wrote: »

Around Mayo, Galway and Sligo, there's a strong public appetite for N17 improvements.

At least it is strong among those who travel from Mayo to Galway, Galway to Sligo etc etc.

I think the strong appetite is for spending the millions of euro of taxpayers money on projects which will be used be thousands on a daily basis and which can bring industry to the areas served without much extra work needed.

The western rail corridor has already proven its first section to be a complete failure and is still costing the taxpayers millions with no real benefit to the areas served. It will never be anything but a complee failure and any extension of this line should result in public ridicule and disgrace as well as arrest and prison for the responsible parties.

The Idyl Race · 18-01-2013 10:12pm

foggy_lad wrote: »

I think the strong appetite is for spending the millions of euro of taxpayers money on projects which will be used be thousands on a daily basis and which can bring industry to the areas served without much extra work needed.

The western rail corridor has already proven its first section to be a complete failure and is still costing the taxpayers millions with no real benefit to the areas served. It will never be anything but a complee failure and any extension of this line should result in public ridicule and disgrace as well as arrest and prison for the responsible parties.

Jesus foggy, overexaggerate much? Now its prison for advocating expansion of the rail network!

end of the road · 18-01-2013 10:40pm

foggaigh o ladaigh wrote: »

any extension of this line should result in public ridicule and disgrace as well as arrest and prison for the responsible parties.

shur its only a railway, we can't afford to jail those who support an extension of it unless your going to fund it out of your own pocket? whats that? no you expect me to fund it to? sorry no can do, i'm broke.

foggy_lad · 18-01-2013 11:24pm

The Idyl Race wrote: »

Jesus foggy, overexaggerate much? Now its prison for advocating expansion of the rail network!

Explain what could ever be ok about spending millions on relaying and then wasting further millions year after year in operating further sections of this line which has no passengers and no future?

It would be criminal to spend public money on such a wasteful project as it adds absolutely nothing apart from the slowest miles of rail in the country to the rail network.

If you think a rail network is all about having miles of railway regardless of them being used then you need to think again!

end of the road · 18-01-2013 11:43pm

foggy_lad wrote: »

Explain what could ever be ok about spending millions on relaying and then wasting further millions year after year in operating further sections of this line which has no passengers and no future?

shur by extending it we'l have more opportunities of usership from towns along the northern half, why take a car or a rickity smelly old bus when you could take the train?

foggy_lad wrote: »

It would be criminal to spend public money on such a wasteful project as it adds absolutely nothing apart from the slowest miles of rail in the country to the rail network.

and causes other lines like waterford rosslare which survived to close and will cause other lines like limerick waterford which has a huge potential and limerick ballybroaphy to close
ah but shur if we can spend criminal amounts of money buying land to build motorways that weren't needed instead of duel carrige ways shur why not a railway as well? shur go on we may as well.

foggy_lad wrote: »

If you think a rail network is all about having miles of railway regardless of them being used then you need to think again!

shur we have miles of road not being used, m3 anyone? may as well have a railway to, go on we know we want it really

westtip · 19-01-2013 12:22am

end of the road wrote: »

i believe some may but many will say they will but won't.

Yes I believe that was the case about the southern branch line, build it build it we will use it .....err average 8 passengers per train....somebody was telling porkie pies...

Wake up and smell the coffee...

end of the road · 19-01-2013 12:34am

westtip wrote: »

Yes I believe that was the case about the southern branch line, build it build it we will use it .....err average 8 passengers per train....somebody was telling porkie pies...

in hindsight yes they were but they genuinely thought people would use it so built it, they shouldn't have but its there now.

westtip wrote: »

Wake up and smell the coffee...

i am awake, smell the coffee? that might be your thing but for me i'l just stick to drinking it thank you very much

foggy_lad · 19-01-2013 2:16am

end of the road wrote: »

in hindsight yes they were but they genuinely thought people would use it so built it, they shouldn't have but its there now.

i am awake, smell the coffee? that might be your thing but for me i'l just stick to drinking it thank you very much

So for their next trick they want to re-lay and open even more of the line that time forgot at astronomical ongoing expense to the taxpayers of the country so that even less people can use it on their rail-tours with their eggy sandwiches and flasks of chilled ginger flavoured beverage.

end of the road · 19-01-2013 2:47am

foggysas_laddysas wrote: »

So for their next trick they want to re-lay and open even more of the line that time forgot at astronomical ongoing expense to the taxpayers of the country so that even less people can use it on their rail-tours with their eggy sandwiches and flasks of chilled ginger flavoured beverage.

ah jesus you could at least provide them with catering without them having to bring their own flasks and so on, shur rickity rockity shaky busses wouldn't do if your bringing a flask. really i'd rather a spur from my house to the rosslare dublin line and a private train at my beck and call to take me to dublin instead of the rest of the WRC but it won't ever happen, oh well never mind

The Idyl Race · 19-01-2013 2:50am

foggy_lad wrote: »

So for their next trick they want to re-lay and open even more of the line that time forgot at astronomical ongoing expense to the taxpayers of the country so that even less people can use it on their rail-tours with their eggy sandwiches and flasks of chilled ginger flavoured beverage.

I don't know what's madder, jailing railway promoters on charges unknown to the statute book or the eggy sandwiches. Euu.

In any case I think things have jumped the shark here

The Idyl Race · 19-01-2013 3:50am

foggy_lad wrote: »

Explain what could ever be ok about spending millions on relaying and then wasting further millions year after year in operating further sections of this line which has no passengers and no future?

It would be criminal to spend public money on such a wasteful project as it adds absolutely nothing apart from the slowest miles of rail in the country to the rail network.

If you think a rail network is all about having miles of railway regardless of them being used then you need to think again!

Lament for the Rail enthusiasts about to be jailed by the WRC thread watchdogs

eastwest · 19-01-2013 10:30am

end of the road wrote: »

exactly, however legislation needs to be brought in that people who take possession of land where a railway once ran can have that possession forceabley removed whether it be tarmac or any other obstruction, it will be back dated as far back as possible, those who take such possession won't be able to apeal through the courts either, old rail routes should be greenway only unless a railway becomes viable again, such legislation would solve the problems and allow the greenway to go ahead on the WRC without having to buy back land that was technically stolen from the people.

The legislation is there already but CIE won't spend money on lawyers where closed lines are concerned, unless the lines have a realistic chance of being reopened.
In limerick a farmer built cattle sheds partly on the alignment of the old limerick-Tralee line and CIE's response was to ask the greenway group to try to find a compromise with the farmer. No lawyer was involved.
To be fair to CIE, they don't have a budget for protecting abandoned lines. Questions need to be asked of the inter-county railway committee though; they are mostly county councillors and could have protected the route over the years. You would have to ask, why do they turn a blind eye to these incursions?

westtip · 19-01-2013 12:29pm

eastwest wrote: »

The legislation is there already but CIE won't spend money on lawyers where closed lines are concerned, unless the lines have a realistic chance of being reopened.

Which is the reason they do nothing about he incursions on the claremorris-collooney line - no realistic chance ever being re-opened

eastwest wrote: »

Questions need to be asked of the inter-county railway committee though; they are mostly county councillors and could have protected the route over the years. You would have to ask, why do they turn a blind eye to these incursions?

It's a talking shop that does nothing. Although the focus of the committee now seems to be to stop the Greenway. The existence of the western inter county railway committee is one of those quirky things in local government - what purpose does it serve? The railway network is one of national not local governance; most people who vote for the councillors on the committee will have no idea of this committee and what it does (good question); It seems to be a local government committee set up a looooong time ago to serve the purposes and objectives of one pressure group - west on track. Who quite often in press releases refer to the democratically elected councillors who support the WRC as if that is a mandate for the project to happen. None of these councillors got elected on a single ticket mandate, and many of them support the greenway idea - its a matter of swinging the lead both ways - what's more the vast majority of them in both Sligo and Mayo know full well the railway has the proverbial snow flakes chance in hell of ever happening - but saying they support it is a good soundbite....nothing changes.

Anyway the brilliant two page spread in the Sligo Champion this week will certainly be an item on the agenda at their next meeting.

westtip · 19-01-2013 12:38pm

end of the road wrote: »

in hindsight yes they were but they genuinely thought people would use it so built it, they shouldn't have but its there now.

And do you think the phrase "once bitten twice shy" may apply to the thinking about spending anymore money on the northern branch line of the WRC

BTW I agree with you about the M3 and a lot of the motorways only needed to be standard DC, there is little doubt a DC from Gort to Tuam and upgrading other parts of the N17/18 will kill off the the WRC completely.

monument · 19-01-2013 3:12pm

The Idyl Race wrote: »

The funny thing is that it seems that everything leads back to killing off the WRC at all costs. We've had cycle tourism, road deaths, motorway development, gardens and garages built across alignments, "exhiliarating" cycles through bogs, making livings for bus companies, uber Catholics and god knows what else chucked at the concept of not developing the railways at all costs - but you haven't killed the idea yet. That must be very frustrating.

Let's not forget the main reasons you can't address:

1. Lack of the population density needed to support a railway.

2. Poor alignment for a railway - and even more so in the northern section;
2A. The very high number of level crossings
2B. All the twists and turns which were ok for an old light railway but not so much for the types services being suggested for the WRC.
2C. Only secondary to the above is: The buildings and gardens on or very near to the alignment.

3. The dramatic failure of the first section to open.

corktina · 19-01-2013 3:30pm

I'd add to that...most of us would fully support developing the Rail system...where it makes sense to do so.

It doesn't make sense to further develop the WRC now or in the near or middle future (so a cycle path would protect the right of way for the long term just in case)

It does make sense to develop Commuter services and Intercity where it is warranted

The Idyl Race · 19-01-2013 5:36pm

Fascinating though how foggy's desire to jail supporters of the WRC hasn't generated any other comment.

BTW I'm not the one having to "address" anything. Put a stamp on that.

eastwest · 19-01-2013 7:02pm

Personally, I'd love to see a network of rail lines all over ireland, in case I ever decided to make use of it.
That's the nub of the issue though; must people, including pro-rail campaigners, will use the handier option of driving door to door. The southern section of the WRC has failed because people voted with their feet and didn't use it.
Does the inter county railway board use public transport to go to their meetings? Probably not, they use cars, same as anybody else living in rural ireland. We all take the easiest option; if you have to drive ten miles to a railway station, you might as well keep going as wait around for a train.
Rail travel works in areas of high population density, where there are sufficient passenger numbers and where the train provides a door to door solution. It won't work on the WRC, not at this point in time anyway, but should we just abandon this valuable public asset because of that?
The politicians seem to think so. Despite their vague promises to look at the matter every five years or so, it is clear that their plan is all about abandonment of the asset.
Many people, including most of the posters to this thread, don't agree that this is good governance, but that won't stop it happening.

monument · 19-01-2013 9:10pm

The Idyl Race wrote: »

Fascinating though how foggy's desire to jail supporters of the WRC hasn't generated any other comment.

Why do you think it warrants further comment?

I'm open to correction from foggy on this, but where he said "arrest and prison for the responsible parties" it would seem like he means for the responsible ministers or government cabinet for such waste of money.

There is -- as far as I know -- know such laws which would allow that. Unless maybe corruption could be proven (which nobody has even attempted to do so). I wish scandalously wasting tax payer's money equaled corruption -- but it does not. Anyway, people often say TDs should be kicked out of office or arrested for wasting money -- there's not much to say in reply.

The Idyl Race wrote: »

BTW I'm not the one having to "address" anything. Put a stamp on that.

You don't have to address anything, but lack of population density and the quality of the line rank as far larger issues than the ones you were trying to dismiss or poke fun at.

corktina · 19-01-2013 9:50pm

The Idyl Race wrote: »

Fascinating though how foggy's desire to jail supporters of the WRC hasn't generated any other comment.

mere hyperbole.... instead of taking it seriously to bash Foggy with, how about giving some reasons why it's a good idea to re-open the rest of the WRC. The "because it's there (or was)" arguement wont stand up on it's own.

end of the road · 19-01-2013 10:00pm

eastwest wrote: »

The legislation is there already but CIE won't spend money on lawyers where closed lines are concerned, unless the lines have a realistic chance of being reopened.
In limerick a farmer built cattle sheds partly on the alignment of the old limerick-Tralee line and CIE's response was to ask the greenway group to try to find a compromise with the farmer. No lawyer was involved.
To be fair to CIE, they don't have a budget for protecting abandoned lines. Questions need to be asked of the inter-county railway committee though; they are mostly county councillors and could have protected the route over the years. You would have to ask, why do they turn a blind eye to these incursions?

well you see the amendment i'm proposing would debunk the need for courts and lawyers as CIE would be able to just go in and remove any obstructions on the lines, any of the possession laws wouldn't apply to rail routes so those who put obstructions on the line would have no rights no matter how long the obstruction was there or how long the line is closed, so the farmer your referring to could have his shed forcabley removed and their would be nothing he could do about it under my proposed amendment.

eastwest · 20-01-2013 12:59am

end of the road wrote: »

well you see the amendment i'm proposing would debunk the need for courts and lawyers as CIE would be able to just go in and remove any obstructions on the lines, any of the possession laws wouldn't apply to rail routes so those who put obstructions on the line would have no rights no matter how long the obstruction was there or how long the line is closed, so the farmer your referring to could have his shed forcabley removed and their would be nothing he could do about it under my proposed amendment.

In theory, if government was interested in this issue, an amendment such as you propose would make a certain amount of sense.
The reality though is that government doesn't give a toss about the WRC, and CIE knows that and is equally disinterested. If CIE won't use existing means to keep routes open, they won't be interested in amending legislation either.
All closed lines have been abandoned to squatters. That has been the case all over Ireland, and the WRC is no different. In another decade we won't own very much of this public strip of land.
A greenway would protect the route, but WOT have firmly dismissed this option and their servants in Dáil Éireann are afraid to go against them.
Stalemate!

westtip · 20-01-2013 12:42pm

eastwest wrote: »

In theory, if government was interested in this issue, an amendment such as you propose would make a certain amount of sense.
The reality though is that government doesn't give a toss about the WRC, and CIE knows that and is equally disinterested. If CIE won't use existing means to keep routes open, they won't be interested in amending legislation either.
All closed lines have been abandoned to squatters. That has been the case all over Ireland, and the WRC is no different. In another decade we won't own very much of this public strip of land.
A greenway would protect the route, but WOT have firmly dismissed this option and their servants in Dáil Éireann are afraid to go against them.
Stalemate!

#

Plus the role of the county councils in this debacle - sligo, mayo and galway county plans all have reference to supporting the strategic objective to re-open the western Rail corridor, of course very little thought has been given as to why this is a strategic objective; and even less practical work has been done. The planning departments - in particular in Sligo Coco - clearly never refered to the county plan when they were handing out planning permissions - which have allowed more private driveways over the rail line, have allowed houses to be built and extended within yards of the alignment, have said nothing about front and back gardens being extended over the line - or businesses using the line as a car showroom. West on Track would do themselves a big favour - if instead of putting their energies into being so anti-greenway at all costs - to actually ask the councils WTF are they doing with all these planning permissions they gave that clearly contravened the county councils strategic plan to support the re-opening of the WRC. All those councillors on the Western Intercounty Railway committee should be knocking on the county managers doors to say - why did you allow this to happen - of course we may find - I don't know - but it is possible, in several cases, in which councillors may have lobbied on behalf of applicants to allow all this encroachment to happen, and as we know one councillor is not going to tread on the toes of another are they? West on Track are very fond of using phrases like the the WRC which is supported by all the democratically elected councillors in the west etc - but never spell it out that these very same councillors have done sweet fanny adam - to actually protect the line by stopping the kind of encroachment that has been shown many times on this thread.

Instead West on Track - put their efforts into producing reports saying a greenway will not be possible along the route from claremorris to collooney due to problems on the line - You may notice they have never put out a press release expressing their concerns about how the democratically elected councillors have continued to allow encroachment and have not implemented the strategic objectives of the county plans...Oh no lets not upset our friends and mouthpieces - the councillors, county planners and county managers for not doing their jobs.

eastwest · 20-01-2013 3:18pm

westtip wrote: »

#

Plus the role of the county councils in this debacle - sligo, mayo and galway county plans all have reference to supporting the strategic objective to re-open the western Rail corridor, of course very little thought has been given as to why this is a strategic objective; and even less practical work has been done. The planning departments - in particular in Sligo Coco - clearly never refered to the county plan when they were handing out planning permissions - which have allowed more private driveways over the rail line, have allowed houses to be built and extended within yards of the alignment, have said nothing about front and back gardens being extended over the line - or businesses using the line as a car showroom. West on Track would do themselves a big favour - if instead of putting their energies into being so anti-greenway at all costs - to actually ask the councils WTF are they doing with all these planning permissions they gave that clearly contravened the county councils strategic plan to support the re-opening of the WRC. All those councillors on the Western Intercounty Railway committee should be knocking on the county managers doors to say - why did you allow this to happen - of course we may find - I don't know - but it is possible, in several cases, in which councillors may have lobbied on behalf of applicants to allow all this encroachment to happen, and as we know one councillor is not going to tread on the toes of another are they? West on Track are very fond of using phrases like the the WRC which is supported by all the democratically elected councillors in the west etc - but never spell it out that these very same councillors have done sweet fanny adam - to actually protect the line by stopping the kind of encroachment that has been shown many times on this thread.

Instead West on Track - put their efforts into producing reports saying a greenway will not be possible along the route from claremorris to collooney due to problems on the line - You may notice they have never put out a press release expressing their concerns about how the democratically elected councillors have continued to allow encroachment and have not implemented the strategic objectives of the county plans...Oh no lets not upset our friends and mouthpieces - the councillors, county planners and county managers for not doing their jobs.

It is certainly a bizarre situation, when you consider that there is at least one county manager who signs off on planning permissions that effectively help preclude railway development and who also sits on the inter county railway committee that purports to favour railways.
Makes you wonder what this railway committee is all about. Are they in favour of a railway, or are they just anti-tourism? How can anyone explain their apparent manoeuvre on recent weeks that saw a valid community-based submission on walking and cycling to one local authority effectively buried? What on earth is this small group of local politicians and public servants up to?
If I live to be a hundred, I'll never fully understand the rats nest of strokes and self-interest that makes up the local authority sector in Ireland. Democracy, it ain't.

The Idyl Race · 20-01-2013 6:57pm

monument wrote: »

Why do you think it warrants further comment?

I'm open to correction from foggy on this, but where he said "arrest and prison for the responsible parties" it would seem like he means for the responsible ministers or government cabinet for such waste of money.

There is -- as far as I know -- know such laws which would allow that. Unless maybe corruption could be proven (which nobody has even attempted to do so). I wish scandalously wasting tax payer's money equaled corruption -- but it does not. Anyway, people often say TDs should be kicked out of office or arrested for wasting money -- there's not much to say in reply.

You don't have to address anything, but lack of population density and the quality of the line rank as far larger issues than the ones you were trying to dismiss or poke fun at.

Actually the reason why my tone is what it is here is that I made a serious attempt to address population densities and a lack of a rail service elsewhere in the country on a another thread a few months ago and several regulars ran to the mod and got the thread hobbled. I have no interest in repeating myself adnauseum.

Western Rail Corridor (all disused sections)

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