Time to burn Greece?

jimmycrackcorm · 27-10-2011 10:58am

I cannot fathom, how, based on the riot images and perpetual strikes, there appears to be such a gulf between the Greek people and their government. They should hold a general election and ask the people what they want - austerity or something worse. We've already had this same opportunity in February.

srsly78 · 27-10-2011 11:06am

This greek government is the new one

The old government they had was the one that was cooking the books etc. Sure the people would love to go back to lying about their finances and pretending everything is ok.

Scofflaw · 27-10-2011 11:33am

jimmycrackcorm wrote: »

I cannot fathom, how, based on the riot images and perpetual strikes, there appears to be such a gulf between the Greek people and their government. They should hold a general election and ask the people what they want - austerity or something worse. We've already had this same opportunity in February.

The problem is partly that, unlike here, the Greek government is not dealing with a unified people. Some of the Greek rioting has consisted of battles between communists and anarchists, which is an indicator that the potential for civil strife in Greece is a lot higher. than here One of the reasons they were desperate to cook the books and get into the euro for cheap borrowing and high spending was that the Greek government has to keep a potentially seriously divided body politic happy by lavishing money on everyone, while simultaneously keeping military spending high to engage in sabre-rattling with the one enemy the Greeks can all agree on - the Turks.

The Irish may grumble about certain people, or groups of people under austerity as much as we adulated them in the boom, but there's no serious division in Irish society that reacts to the pressure of austerity by lining up the people on different sides of an ideological divide and saying that if the other side were only eliminated everything would be fine.

cordially,
Scofflaw

Monty Burnz · 27-10-2011 12:28pm

Scofflaw wrote: »

The problem is partly that, unlike here, the Greek government is not dealing with a unified people. Some of the Greek rioting has consisted of battles between communists and anarchists, which is an indicator that the potential for civil strife in Greece is a lot higher. than here One of the reasons they were desperate to cook the books and get into the euro for cheap borrowing and high spending was that the Greek government has to keep a potentially seriously divided body politic happy by lavishing money on everyone, while simultaneously keeping military spending high to engage in sabre-rattling with the one enemy the Greeks can all agree on - the Turks.

The Irish may grumble about certain people, or groups of people under austerity as much as we adulated them in the boom, but there's no serious division in Irish society that reacts to the pressure of austerity by lining up the people on different sides of an ideological divide and saying that if the other side were only eliminated everything would be fine.

cordially,
Scofflaw

If the Greeks don't cop on, the prospect of a failed state within the EU is not beyond the bounds of possibility. They have plenty of terrorist groups waiting to capitalise on the instability to murder their way towards their ideological goals...

Scofflaw · 27-10-2011 12:34pm

Monty Burnz wrote: »

If the Greeks don't cop on, the prospect of a failed state within the EU is not beyond the bounds of possibility. They have plenty of terrorist groups waiting to capitalise on the instability to murder their way towards their ideological goals...

Sure - to be honest, I'm not sure what happens then, and I don't think anyone else does either. The situation is unprecedented.

cordially,
Scofflaw

27-10-2011 1:27pm

Scofflaw wrote: »

Sure - to be honest, I'm not sure what happens then, and I don't think anyone else does either. The situation is unprecedented.

cordially,
Scofflaw

The EU fumbles the issue but is forced to act when Turkey reacts to the situation.
Of course the US would be putting all sorts of pressure on Europe so rather than the situation being unprecedented an organisation simply would never be allowed to get past say, ETA levels.

Icepick · 27-10-2011 4:46pm

The new deal solves nothing except for saving rich people's money and certain political careers ... for a while.

Greek economy is fundamentally flawed and should be kicked out of the Eurozone. We could write-off 80% of their debt if they could pay of the rest by selling state assets or write off 100% and be done with it.

A lot of this debt is held by Greek and other EU banks so the debt wasn't written off as much as just shifted.

Scofflaw · 27-10-2011 4:49pm

Rojomcdojo wrote: »

The EU fumbles the issue but is forced to act when Turkey reacts to the situation.

I'd go with the first bit, but not the second.

Rojomcdojo wrote: »

Of course the US would be putting all sorts of pressure on Europe so rather than the situation being unprecedented an organisation simply would never be allowed to get past say, ETA levels.

I think the difference with Greece is that the potentially violent groups have wider support.

cordially,
Scofflaw

beeftotheheels · 01-11-2011 12:09am

I think we're seeing a much more convincing endgame than that announced post summit. Summit agreement buys 2-3 months being vaguely feasible yet unlikely to actually achieve anything (detail anyone?). Papandreou calls a referendum he knows he cannot win while the National Bank dusts off the printing press and starts printing drachma.

No one admits anything, everyone expresses shock at the actions of the Greek Government. Pressure continues on Berlusconi to resign.

2-3 months down the road and before private sector involvement in the current deal is set in stone the referendum is held and lost, Greece exits stage left into a disorderly (yet reasonably well planned) default and returns to the drachma outside the EU but everyone can claim it is democratic and the will of the Greek people.

The hell fire that rains down on Greece soon afterwards serves as a warning to Ireland and the other PIIGS (ideally with new Italian Premier) to get their houses in order, and with the only "officially" insolvent member of the club out of the way, the ECB can claim that it is now dealing with a pure liquidity crisis and therefore its involvement in the secondary markets carries no risk of creating a transfer union, so they too can dust off the press.

Might just be capable of saving the euro and the EU (or at least more capable than the current plan). Shame about Greece.

Also explains Sarkozy's comments about Greek entry into the Eurozone being a mistake.

I seem to recall Lex suggested a Greek exit as a plan to save the euro several months back. Perhaps they will turn out to be right.

Of course this could be wishful thinking on my part, I just cannot believe that the results of the summit were any kind of resolution.

Scofflaw · 01-11-2011 9:45am

beeftotheheels wrote: »

I think we're seeing a much more convincing endgame than that announced post summit. Summit agreement buys 2-3 months being vaguely feasible yet unlikely to actually achieve anything (detail anyone?). Papandreou calls a referendum he knows he cannot win while the National Bank dusts off the printing press and starts printing drachma.

No one admits anything, everyone expresses shock at the actions of the Greek Government. Pressure continues on Berlusconi to resign.

2-3 months down the road and before private sector involvement in the current deal is set in stone the referendum is held and lost, Greece exits stage left into a disorderly (yet reasonably well planned) default and returns to the drachma outside the EU but everyone can claim it is democratic and the will of the Greek people.

The hell fire that rains down on Greece soon afterwards serves as a warning to Ireland and the other PIIGS (ideally with new Italian Premier) to get their houses in order, and with the only "officially" insolvent member of the club out of the way, the ECB can claim that it is now dealing with a pure liquidity crisis and therefore its involvement in the secondary markets carries no risk of creating a transfer union, so they too can dust off the press.

Might just be capable of saving the euro and the EU (or at least more capable than the current plan). Shame about Greece.

Also explains Sarkozy's comments about Greek entry into the Eurozone being a mistake.

I seem to recall Lex suggested a Greek exit as a plan to save the euro several months back. Perhaps they will turn out to be right.

Of course this could be wishful thinking on my part, I just cannot believe that the results of the summit were any kind of resolution.

In other words, Greece is being offered the opportunity to set fire to itself?

cordially,
Scofflaw

Tazz T · 01-11-2011 11:01am

No hellfire will rain down on Greece.

Public sector people will lose their jobs. Many people will move back to their family homes on the islands and live off the land like they did in the past.

Sure, there'll be austerity, but that was going to happen anyway. No money to pay back, so no austerity measures needed for that. Redistribute the money already in the economy. Don't worry, be happy. That's the Greek way.

And, unlike us, they get to keep the most important thing of all - their sovereignty.

beeftotheheels · 01-11-2011 11:13am

Scofflaw wrote: »

In other words, Greece is being offered the opportunity to set fire to itself?

cordially,
Scofflaw

Exactly (although they're already smoldering). Remember the comment by Noonan on the 5th of October which I thought at the time would be picked up by the press outside Ireland but wasn't (I had no hopes that the Irish press would realize what he said)?

http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/breaking/2011/1005/breaking60.html

Current EU actions have a huge democratic deficit, this would amend that.

From the Greek perspective while the GGBs are under Greek law Greece can effect a hard default hitting every holder including the ECB to actually get its debt down to sustainable levels (below 100% GDP) but they cannot burn the ECB and remain in the eurozone (I don't think they can do it and remain in the EU).

Even with a couple of months planning I doubt it will be a nice experience which should ensure that all other PIIGS follow our lead, elect a national unity government and stick to the plan.

Only question then is whether Schaubian housewife economics has already plunged the EU back into recession or whether a convincing end to the debt crisis could pluck us back out again....

Damian_ir · 01-11-2011 3:01pm

Tazz T wrote: »

And, unlike us, they get to keep the most important thing of all - their sovereignty.

Don't be sure about that. Turkey' s smart strategy is to attack always when Greece is weak.

The only deference now is that Turkey has pissed off Israel with its policy in middle east and the situation would be most complicated. This is the Greeks hope.

By the way, parliamenters starts to abandon George Disaster Papandreou. There is a chance that the political partie of Papandreou will collapse. Most of them are talking for new movement to assemble a combined political group of left and right to handle the extreme situation.

I think that what ever they try to do is useless cause it is too late.

Bullseye1 · 01-11-2011 3:17pm

Looks like the Greeks want to burn everyone else first

Scofflaw · 01-11-2011 3:20pm

I think that what ever they try to do is useless cause it is too late.

Whether you think you can do something or not, you're probably right.

gnomically,
Scofflaw

Damian_ir · 02-11-2011 7:24am

Damian_ir wrote: »

Don't be sure about that. Turkey' s smart strategy is to attack always when Greece is weak.

The only deference now is that Turkey has pissed off Israel with its policy in middle east and the situation would be most complicated. This is the Greeks hope.

By the way, parliamenters starts to abandon George Disaster Papandreou. There is a chance that the political partie of Papandreou will collapse. Most of them are talking for new movement to assemble a combined political group of left and right to handle the extreme situation.

I think that what ever they try to do is useless cause it is too late.

On top of that, yesterday , one parliamenter has abandon Papandreou's partie and became independend in the parliament. One more will probably do the same.

If just two more resign, then only the Military can be used by him to stay in charge.

Perhaps this is the reason , that this political imposter and above all this traitor, decided yesterday to change the heads of Army, Airforce and Navy.

That puppet, that traitor, that political corpse, the raper of Greek constitution, a major washing machine of Siemens briefcases, the worst of its kind, hasn't realise that 11 millions in the country and 6 millions Greeks abroad, are against him.

anymore · 03-11-2011 1:46pm

The Sunday Times in an article on greece quoted the case of one Katerina Constantinou who is worried; she retired at age of 52 from accounts dept of a Greek State TV station on a pension 0f € 27,000 ! Her husband who is 72 also has a pension. If he had been working in that tv station, then presumably he would have picking up a pension for 18/20 years as well.
Just why should Greece not be left to its on devices ?

Damian_ir · 04-11-2011 8:47am

anymore wrote: »

Just why should Greece not be left to its on devices ?

There is no reason.

The best that should be done is let Greece to drachma.

Greece will be able to recover quicker and probably more people will survive, than staying in the eurozone. The only major danger is a local war between Greece and Turkey. When they will occupy an island, they will stop and start again their colonization, like they did in Cyprus in 1974.

Most of the people in Greece will survive. On the other hand, staying in the eurozone, in less than 10 of the 20 years of austerity, hundrends of thousand people will die due to lack of food and medicine.

On the other hand, Eurozone will solve all of its problems. Greece is the black sheep that should be eaten by the wolf, for the prosperity of the Europeans to become true.

jetfiremuck · 04-11-2011 3:46pm

Lads Greece is only a small thorn in the side. That their prime minister can hold Europe to ransom shows how fragile this house of cards is. Its Italy where the real underlying problem is.bthey havent had the white light treatment yet. Wait and see

ei.sdraob · 04-11-2011 3:50pm

jetfiremuck wrote: »

Lads Greece is only a small thorn in the side. That their prime minister can hold Europe to ransom shows how fragile this house of cards is. Its Italy where the real underlying problem is.bthey havent had the white light treatment yet. Wait and see

Holding europe ransom by trying to consult the electorate? What sort of a upside down Orwellian doublespeak world has this become

Scofflaw · 04-11-2011 4:16pm

ei.sdraob wrote: »

Holding europe ransom by trying to consult the electorate? What sort of a upside down Orwellian doublespeak world has this become

It hasn't - had it been part of the negotiations from the start it would have been quite above board, as it is when it comes to Ireland negotiating EU treaties. What made it something of a case of holding Europe to ransom was that it was sprung on Greece's negotiating partners after they thought the deal was sealed and had announced it.

So while I very strongly support a Greek referendum (which sadly looks like it won't go ahead), the annoyance and market upset it caused is real and justified.

Mind you, I don't think it was done to hold Europe to ransom, and certainly if it was nothing was gained by it (and predictably so) - it was advertised as being necessary to get the Greeks to face up to their choices, and that's what I think is the case. Certainly it appears to have actually done so to some extent merely as a threat.

cordially,
Scofflaw

cyberhog · 07-11-2011 8:22am

beeftotheheels wrote: »

So a transaction which Greece entered into in 2009 (eight years after they joined the euro) allowed them to keep some debt off their balance sheet. As Goldman's were the counter-party to this transaction we can accuse them of exporting accounting fraud to Greece???

In a word,Yes.

Wall Street tactics akin to the ones that fostered subprime mortgages in America have worsened the financial crisis shaking Greece and undermining the euro by enabling European governments to hide their mounting debts.

One deal created by Goldman Sachs helped obscure billions in debt from the budget overseers in Brussels.

...

Instruments developed by Goldman Sachs, JPMorgan Chase and a wide range of other banks enabled politicians to mask additional borrowing in Greece, Italy and possibly elsewhere.

...

Critics say that such deals, because they are not recorded as loans, mislead investors and regulators about the depth of a country’s liabilities.

http://www.nytimes.com/2010/02/14/business/global/14debt.html?pagewanted=all

Greg Palast's latest piece is must read for those who don't know the background on Goldman's dirty dealings.

...

When the new Socialist government of George Papandreou came into office, they opened up the books and Goldman's bats flew out. Investors' went berserk, demanding monster interest rates to lend more money to roll over this debt.

Greece's panicked bondholders rushed to buy insurance against the nation going bankrupt. The price of the bond-bust insurance, called a credit default swap (or CDS), also shot through the roof. Who made a big pile selling the CDS insurance? Goldman.

And those rotting bags of CDS's sold by Goldman and others? Didn't they know they were handing their customers gold-painted turds?

That's Goldman's specialty. In 2007, at the same time banks were selling suspect CDS's and CDOs (packaged sub-prime mortgage securities), Goldman held a “net short” position against these securities. That is, Goldman was betting their financial "products" would end up in the toilet. Goldman picked up another half a billion dollars on their "net short" scam.

But, instead of cuffing Goldman's CEO Lloyd Blankfein and parading him in a cage through the streets of Athens, we have the victims of the frauds, the Greek people, blamed. Blamed and soaked for the cost of it. The "spread" on Greek bonds (the term used for the risk premium paid on Greece's corrupted debt) has now risen to — get ready for this––$14,000 per family per year.

...

http://www.gregpalast.com/lazy-ouzo-swilling-olive-pit-spitting-greeksor-how-goldman-sacked-greece/

McDave · 08-11-2011 9:14pm

Papandreou dug his own grave. The referendum he proposed might have made sense on one level (e.g. rounding up popular support for the hard decisions ahead). However, what he proposed was a referendum on accepting the deal.

IMO that was a wholly inappropriate tack. His Eurozone partners correctly understood that a referendum could have only been meaningfully about being in or out of the Eurozone. Why? Because a No vote would have been seen as a pitch at renegotiating the deal. And that's no way to do crisis business on the multilateral stage.

Greece has been given an enormous digout through the 50% haircut. It has effectively been put on a debt par with Italy. It's up to them to sort out their current account and prove they can stabilise their situation. They should just get on with it. If they can't even do that, then it really is time to consider burning Greece. Let's hope it doesn't get to that.

maninasia · 09-11-2011 3:11am

If they burn Greece they burn their own banks too but in a very unpredictable way which will also damage their plans for other countries...that's the problem and why they were willing to give Greece such a big haircut.

So just saying 'burn Greece' is really not constructive and actually self-harm.

Damian_ir · 09-11-2011 12:48pm

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sQzzTtc6flk

beeftotheheels · 09-11-2011 10:49pm

Question now is who the next PM will be (and why it is taking so long to announce)?

jetfiremuck · 09-11-2011 11:06pm

Its now strange that as greece and now italy are needing further bailouts that it comes with a change of government. This is ominous. Are the replacements going to be emf henchmen. At least the greeks were putting it to the people. Did anyone notice that the us stock market took a dump today. Roll on spain and portugal.

Noreen1 · 10-11-2011 1:33am

I was actually thinking something similar today.

Irelands request for a bailout led to a change in Government.

Greece, and now Italy will also have a change in Government.

I wouldn't go so far as to say the new Governments will be anyones henchmen - but it's a safe bet that the Bailouts are deeply unpopular with electorates throughout Europe, whether the electorate being bailed out, or the electorate doing the bailing out...

A Europe built on Democratic principles? Hmm...

It doesn't appear to be working very well, does it?

ArmaniJeanss · 10-11-2011 1:44am

Noreen1 wrote: »

I was actually thinking something similar today.

Irelands request for a bailout led to a change in Government.

Greece, and now Italy will also have a change in Government.

.....it's a safe bet that the Bailouts are deeply unpopular with electorates throughout Europe, whether the electorate being bailed out, or the electorate doing the bailing out...

Portugal has had a recent change of government as well.

But I don't quite see your point - I doubt any of the electorates voted out the prior government because of applying for and taking the bailout, it was more because of the general mismanagement of the countrys finances which led to the need for a bailout in the first place.
Its hard to bankrupt a country and retain popular support.

K-9 · 10-11-2011 2:28am

ArmaniJeanss wrote: »

Portugal has had a recent change of government as well.

But I don't quite see your point - I doubt any of the electorates voted out the prior government because of applying for and taking the bailout, it was more because of the general mismanagement of the countrys finances which led to the need for a bailout in the first place.
Its hard to bankrupt a country and retain popular support.

Indeed, FG and Labour didn't oppose the bailout, just particular parts. SF was about the only party that did and got 10%.

Noreen1 · 10-11-2011 2:58am

ArmaniJeanss wrote: »

Portugal has had a recent change of government as well.

But I don't quite see your point - I doubt any of the electorates voted out the prior government because of applying for and taking the bailout, it was more because of the general mismanagement of the countrys finances which led to the need for a bailout in the first place.
Its hard to bankrupt a country and retain popular support.

I think it was probably both.

In Ireland, for example, there is considerable anger at the fact that we weren't allowed to burn certain bondholders, recently.

I think it is also fair to say that the bailout was the final nail in the FF coffin.

It is also fair to say that people are unhappy at the loss of economic sovereignty resulting from the bailout.

So, it's reasonable to say that people are unhappy with the bailout, for a number of reasons.

It's also very clear that French and German voters are less than thrilled at the idea that their living standards are (perceived to be) at risk.

Hence, there are a lot of European voters who do not approve of the bailouts, for a variety of reasons - yet the bailouts just keep getting bigger, and more "necessary" to protect the Euro.

In short, the markets are pulling the strings, the politicians are the puppets, so what does that make the European electorate?

Whatever it is, it's very far from the ideals of democracy that I was taught about in school, all those years ago - because lately it seems to be "For the Markets, By the Markets, and With the Markets", and the people are nothing more than pawns on the chessboard!

Noreen1 · 10-11-2011 3:01am

K-9 wrote: »

Indeed, FG and Labour didn't oppose the bailout, just particular parts. SF was about the only party that did and got 10%.

True, but did they get 10% because they opposed the Bailout, or because they didn't have what the public accepted as a credible alternative strategy?

beeftotheheels · 10-11-2011 11:28am

Noreen1 wrote: »

In short, the markets are pulling the strings, the politicians are the puppets, so what does that make the European electorate?

Whatever it is, it's very far from the ideals of democracy that I was taught about in school, all those years ago - because lately it seems to be "For the Markets, By the Markets, and With the Markets", and the people are nothing more than pawns on the chessboard!

Ah but you see things are never as simple as all that.

Who forced the governments to borrow the money? Who put a gun to their heads? No one, but in a number of jurisdictions borrowing money to pay for public services was seen as preferable to either making cuts or increasing taxes. Because it was popular, appealed to the punters and made re-election easier. But now the bond holders want to be repaid. That accounts for a lot of the problems.

Then there's us and Spain, property fires which our politicians threw petrol on until they burnt the whole place down. Because it was popular, appealed to the punters and made re-election easier.

So democracy is a big part of the problem here, democracy to some extent caused this mess.

While the paradigms of finance certainly need to be revisited as a result of this mess I wonder if those around democracy do too.

I often wonder if we'd be better off with some kind of benign dictator model, a proper old school Taoiseach who we elect for life, no party politics. When he or she pops their clogs we get another chance only knowing us we'd probably only then vote for Octogenarians.

Noreen1 · 10-11-2011 1:59pm

I'm all for the principles of Democracy being re-visited - or, possibly more accurately, the party politics aspect of Democracy that usually renders almost half of our representatives very close to powerless in Government.

Having said that, no-one elected FF in the knowledge that they would guarantee the banks, or, for that matter, with any knowledge that there was any problem with the banks.
You could also have quite an interesting debate as to whether socialising private losses was democratic, since the option wasn't put to the electorate, and the Government refused to step down when the depth of public feeling became apparent.

I'm more in favour of the financial system being overhauled, though. The current one is not serving the vast majority of the people very well.

Hence my comment about the people being pawns.
We need to be able to control the banks and the markets in the interests of the population, and the current crisies has made it very obvious that the (unelected) banks and markets control us to a much greater degree than is desireable.

So, generally speaking, we can safely say that there are serious obstacles to Democracy in Europe.
As to the benign dictator, I haven't read about too many of those in the History books. Absolute power corrupts absolutely, and all that.

Scofflaw · 11-11-2011 1:59am

As to the benign dictator, I haven't read about too many of those in the History books. Absolute power corrupts absolutely, and all that

Singapore...

cordially,
Scofflaw

Noreen1 · 11-11-2011 11:09am

I've no idea how reliable this site is, and I don't have time to research further right now, but it doesn't sound as if all is rosy in the garden in Singapore, either./

http://theonlinecitizen.com/2007/01/what-happened-to-singapore-the-land-of-plenty/

Scofflaw · 11-11-2011 6:21pm

Noreen1 wrote: »

I've no idea how reliable this site is, and I don't have time to research further right now, but it doesn't sound as if all is rosy in the garden in Singapore, either./

http://theonlinecitizen.com/2007/01/what-happened-to-singapore-the-land-of-plenty/

I'm not sure there's anywhere that's completely rosy, but none of the problems described there are the particular outcome of Singapore's method of government.

I'm not arguing particularly for benign dictatorship, but it's not an impossible system by any means. Certainly the (ancient) Greeks, after their experiments with a variety of systems, felt that when it was achievable it was a pretty good system, despite the obvious drawbacks.

cordially,
Scofflaw

Damian_ir · 16-11-2011 6:48am

... mistaken post

Damian_ir · 24-11-2011 9:45am

Business with guns and arms in Greece.

http://www.onalert.gr/default.php?pname=Article&catid=2&art_id=10088

I used google translate it , so excuse me for any mistakes.

The game equipment never ends in Ellada.Isos for some time to ... but after xapostainei to ... and this glory takes. Can the "great powers" of equipment, many of which are the lenders, we can pretend to be indifferent and declare by people in Greece that "have written off Greece", but other facts suggest. And first of all, they follow the doctrine that says that "crisis creates opportunities." Yesterday's contact MoD D. Avramopoulos, the U.S. ambassador in Athens N. Smith, brought again to the fore the intention of the U.S. to "give "weapon systems in Greece. First of all tanks Abrams.Ypothesi that occupied Long the General Staff and the previous leadership of MoD, in P. Beglitis. Discussions and thoughts minted "knife" when the subject has occupied the Austrian parliament, with the rationale that "the Greeks can not be asked to lend and at the same time to buy weapons." The then government spokesman G. Mosialos with a categorical statement said that "Abrams on there." Declaration had convinced everyone except some in the General Staff. "donated" there is of course even though the Americans allegedly willing to give us the tanks at extremely low prices, since both aim to "break" the German monopoly Armata potential of Greece. The Americans see through the present "opportunities" in Ellada.Mia is a possible modernization of F-16, modernization of P-3 and is sure to come back and modernize helicopters Apache. The Germans are worried Germnaoi are shown as completely indifferent for the "Greek armaments market," strongly concerned for the U.S. firm penetration and as the theme was "hot", asking here and there to learn leptomereies.Profanos will continue to do so. Berlin has .... Writing off Greece, as they say, cares about the DAC, which will also find the opposite of Amerikanous.Pou due to F-16 and Lockheed Martin, have lead to the privatization process of the company. The Germans did not hide their discomfort to maneuver "to avoid" three Greek governments to pressure to buy Eurofighter. Simitis at KYSEA of his time, had given a decision on purchase of at least 60 aeroskafon.Den never materialized, despite the "renewal" of promises by Karamanlis and Papandreou. And this seems not forgive us. The Eurofighter, playing perhaps his last paper in India, where Germany is chosen will receive more than 12 billion! If you do not do it though? And do not forget that Merkel faces and elections. Up close and France 's Sarkozy may be furious at the decision of the Papandreou dimospsifisma, but also angry with the final "freeze" the market four to six frigates Fremm, from Greece. On the other hand proopiki's friendship with Ntasso in pushing for the sale of fighter Rafale, which until now have remained unclaimed in the ...! Neither one have not been able to export the French and await the decision of India and Brazil. In the first have of the Eurofighter Merkel and Brazil the F-18 of Obama. So the chances are great epikratisisden. All this puzzle shows that the "great powers" of equipment, when they say that "have written off Greece" do not tell the whole truth. Remain and wait for trying to "plasaristoun" in the best possible thesi.Otan will get some light from the crack will occur. Our history has shown many times. READ THE HISTORY, ECONOMICS AND WEAPONS IN GREECE READ STILL INSISTS ON THE AMERICAN ABRAMS.DEITE VIDEO

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OFN79wuuTy8

Damian_ir · 30-01-2012 4:13pm

This is EVROS river in the Northern Greece, in the province of Thrace. THIS RIVER IN MOST OF THE AREA IS the Greek - Turkish borders in the mainland.

Recently Turkey bought mechanical bridges which are capable of transfering tanks of the Turkish Army to the left side of the river into Greece.

Turkey posses 2.500 boats in minor asia(west turkish mainland) naval bases which has one and only purpose. To transport troops from western Turkey to the Greek islands.

Turkey recently anounced that will buy the new stealth fighter f-35.

Turkey recently announced that will buy a clearly offensive mini-aircarier for chopers and f-35. This type of mini aircarier is used by superpowers for invasion porposes.

Turkey's population is over 60 million and at the same time population of Greece is about 10 million.

As we speak , Russian anti-aircraft missiles are to be delivered to the Greek forces in order to partially support the Greek airdefence which is under daily danger of the turkish fighters above the Aegean sea. YES ARMS ARE DELIVERED eventhough country is one step from colapsing. YES may be that Greeks are crazy ...

ooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo

The last achievement of the traitor George Papandreou and his associates .

In the same time it is a proof that Greece will always need arms to protect the country.

This is the course of a corvete of the Turkish Navy that almost reached the coasts of Attica(province of Athens).

This is the 3rd offensive movement of the Turkish Navy, after couple of others condacted by frigates and submarines, since Papandreou came in charge.

In all these cases , ships were in 100% readiness with all their weapon systems active. In an area inside Greek sea borders.

ALL THE ISLANDS that are vissible , among 1000 others non vissible on the map, are ... Greece. Except Cyprus on your right which is an independend republic member of E.U.

http://www.defencenet.gr/defence/index.php

There will be a new invasion of Turkey (After Cyprus in 1974) .

It is a matter of time.

This is a part of the reason for what is happening in Greece.

One day, i will write down about an other problem of the region. Hundrends of thousand poor people that comes as refuges with boats in Greece. They are so many that the weak greek goverment can't handle. Most of them are forwarded under Turkish Goverment supervision (underground of course).

Guess what ? There is a E.U law that says Greece should keep them all as refuges inside the country and not to share them with the other members of the E.U.

An other day though ... an other day to partially enlight you about the mystery " what the ... is going on in Greece ? "

Perhaps the question that should be answered is ... "what is going on with Europe ?" or "where Europe wants to go ? "

Peanut · 30-01-2012 10:07pm

It makes absolutely no sense for Turkey, a NATO member and EU aspirant country, to invade a neighbouring EU country.

I honestly believe this is 99% paranoia on behalf of sections of Greek society, no doubt fueled by historical antagonism and the need to feel united against the old enemy. The last serious skirmish in '96 was resolved by a combination of both sides being unwilling to escalate the issue and international pressure.

Of course if the global situation changes drastically, all bets are off, and Greek fears could be understood in that longer-term context, but as for an immediate or near-term threat it just seems completely unrealistic.

BTW Turkey has also been host to US nuclear weapons for the past 40 years.

murphaph · 31-01-2012 1:26pm

Voodoo_rasher wrote: »

Of course Mr Peanut it makes sense that Turkey would want to re-take a former possession. It would like nothing better than to bring back its old Muslim Empire in Europe. Who's ruling Tur right now? But an Islamicist party! Take out a history book and get a grip on the Ottoman Empire like a good man. It took perhaps 5 centuries to get the cvnts out of Europe!

Should we expect the Italians to retake Abysinnia any time soon? Or should we in the RoI be fearful of the bould Brits retaking their former possession? :eek:

Turkey has no intention of invading any EU member state. The EU is a bit of a joke at times but I am pretty certain the reaction to an invasion of an EU member state would be met with considerable military support, nevermind the economic sanctions a (thriving) Turkish economy would face.

Turkey would have so little to gain and so so much to lose.

Peanut · 31-01-2012 1:48pm

Voodoo_rasher wrote: »

Of course Mr Peanut it makes sense that Turkey would want to re-take a former possession. It would like nothing better than to bring back its old Muslim Empire in Europe.

Well I don't think you need to worry about it - the Germans* will have established the 4th reich by that time and will have subdued all of Europe in order to re-take their former possessions. (Isn't that what the Euro crisis is all about???)

Voodoo_rasher wrote: »

Who's ruling Tur right now? But an Islamicist party!

Who wouldda thunk it !

I can still buy alcohol at 2am on a Saturday night in Istanbul without restriction.

If this does change drastically I may get back to you.

* I would like to appeal for a special exemption from Godwin's law based on the idea of an imminent Islamic invasion of Europe being roughly on par with the accusation of Germany having deliberately engineered the debt crisis in order to extend their interests in the region.

Tora Bora · 31-01-2012 2:29pm

Peanut wrote: »

Well I don't think you need to worry about it - the Germans* will have established the 4th reich by that time and will have subdued all of Europe in order to re-take their former possessions. (Isn't that what the Euro crisis is all about???)

Who wouldda thunk it !

I can still buy alcohol at 2am on a Saturday night in Istanbul without restriction.

If this does change drastically I may get back to you.

* I would like to appeal for a special exemption from Godwin's law based on the idea of an imminent Islamic invasion of Europe being roughly on par with the accusation of Germany having deliberately engineered the debt crisis in order to extend their interests in the region.

Haven't you heard? Roisin Shortarse Shorthall, is moving to Turkey. No more alchohol for you boy, to fuel your imagination

Scofflaw · 31-01-2012 5:12pm

Tora Bora wrote: »

Haven't you heard? Roisin Shortarse Shorthall, is moving to Turkey. No more alchohol for you boy, to fuel your imagination

Applying derogatory epithets to politicians isn't particularly big or clever, even with the strikethrough.

moderately,
Scofflaw

Damian_ir · 03-02-2012 7:57pm

Yesterday there was an unusual incident in Greece.

Justice ministry website was hacked by the Anonymous and they left a message.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4eJP9wDhDoI

McDave · 03-02-2012 10:14pm

Damian_ir wrote: »

Yesterday there was an unusual incident in Greece.

Justice ministry website was hacked by the Anonymous and they left a message.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4eJP9wDhDoI

S'funny. Whenever I see that silly smirking mask so beloved of the Occupy crew, I'm almost rooting for the banksters!

Damian_ir · 06-02-2012 7:54am

What's wrong with the Greeks? [Swedish documentary - subbed]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mMQF2rSHnbw

McDave · 06-02-2012 10:25pm

Damian_ir wrote: »

What's wrong with the Greeks? [Swedish documentary - subbed]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mMQF2rSHnbw

Just watched the whole video.

The Greeks have messed up really badly. They put us in the ha'penny place.

Solutions? Hard to know. But one of them is to repatriate the €200 billion rich Greeks have apparently salted away offshore. If they had any humanity, that's what these guys should be doing. Put their money back to work in Greece.

Sponge Bob · 07-02-2012 12:04pm

The Greeks are incorrigible. They can take the bailout or leave...thats it. They dont even deserve a bailout. All their main parties are equally complicit.

Time to burn Greece?

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