DART+ (DART Expansion)

Avada · 29-03-2017 9:49pm

Sam Russell wrote: »

I do not have access to any EI figures beyond their published timetable.

However, I remember someone quoting €8 per KM per coach for electric trains. Now it is about 40 km from Greystones to Malahide, so a 4 coach train will cost €1,280 to go there and the same back. Let us call it €2,500 for the round trip.

If 10 such journeys were saved each day by running 4 car sets instead of 8 car trains, that amounts to €10 million per year. That is by just saving 10 out of 70 return trips per day. With 10 minute Darts, there are over 100 return trips.

Now, my assumption of €8 per km might be out, but I would think it is not out by a huge factor either way. So, a saving of 'millions' is not completely out.

This report from 2011 has EMU operating cost at €5 per km (Table 9.2). Now that appears to be intercity trains, so I would imagine DART would be lower. That could be my woefully incorrect assumption though.

http://www.irishrail.ie/media/irishrail_28febfinal_part21.pdf

MJohnston · 29-03-2017 9:57pm

Does an operating cost really scale in a linear way for train carriages?

Zebra3 · 29-03-2017 9:58pm

Idbatterim wrote: »

I would expect locals to complain if a wall was to be pained white instead of black! You will get plenty of idiots objecting to the sake of it or for something to keep them busy. This is a fact. Its up to the planners to make the correct decision...

If we can constantly CPO for motorways, why can't something similar be done to improve out PT infrastructure?

Or is Malahide too wealthy an area to carry out actions like that? :rolleyes:

antoinolachtnai · 29-03-2017 10:09pm

MJohnston wrote: »

Does an operating cost really scale in a linear way for train carriages?

Yes, basically. However, it is going to cost more to run depending on whether it is loaded or not. And it is going to cost more to run at peak times (4.30pm-6pm) than at off peak, because electricity is a lot more expensive at peak times.

Sam Russell · 30-03-2017 10:04am

Avada wrote: »

This report from 2011 has EMU operating cost at €5 per km (Table 9.2). Now that appears to be intercity trains, so I would imagine DART would be lower. That could be my woefully incorrect assumption though.

http://www.irishrail.ie/media/irishrail_28febfinal_part21.pdf

Whatever the cost - 5 or 8 euros, it is still millions of euros if 10 trains per day are reduced from 8 to 4 coaches. Whether it is 10 million or 5 million, it is a lot of money to waste moving empty carriages from one end of the line and back again. [And that assumes on 15% of the total trains had carriages removed, if it were 30%, that would double the figure].

There also appears to be little logic as to the actual length of trains. Some days it is six on a particular service, other days it is eight.

Anyone know if train length is timetabled, or is it the one nearest the yard?

LXFlyer · 30-03-2017 10:47am

Sam Russell wrote: »

Whatever the cost - 5 or 8 euros, it is still millions of euros if 10 trains per day are reduced from 8 to 4 coaches. Whether it is 10 million or 5 million, it is a lot of money to waste moving empty carriages from one end of the line and back again. [And that assumes on 15% of the total trains had carriages removed, if it were 30%, that would double the figure].

There also appears to be little logic as to the actual length of trains. Some days it is six on a particular service, other days it is eight.

Anyone know if train length is timetabled, or is it the one nearest the yard?

There would be full set rosters and trains would be rostered to be particular train lengths. But if a set is not available due to needing maintenance this will change and may mean set allocations being rejigged.

For example if one 4-car set that is supposed to be part of an 8-car set goes unserviceable, they may need to replace that train with a 6-car train if another 4-car set wasn't available to replace it in order to offer the maximum capacity on that service.

That will in all likelihood mean a knock-on effect on other services.

Again, rostering public transport is massively more complicated than I think you understand it to be and while it may seem straightforward to reduce train lengths at times, there can be a whole variety of reasons as to why it can't happen.

Avada · 30-03-2017 10:56am

Sam Russell wrote: »

Whatever the cost - 5 or 8 euros, it is still millions of euros if 10 trains per day are reduced from 8 to 4 coaches. Whether it is 10 million or 5 million, it is a lot of money to waste moving empty carriages from one end of the line and back again. [And that assumes on 15% of the total trains had carriages removed, if it were 30%, that would double the figure].

There also appears to be little logic as to the actual length of trains. Some days it is six on a particular service, other days it is eight.

Anyone know if train length is timetabled, or is it the one nearest the yard?

I wasn't necessarily disagreeing with you, just adding the figures

Sam Russell · 30-03-2017 1:38pm

lxflyer wrote: »

There would be full set rosters and trains would be rostered to be particular train lengths. But if a set is not available due to needing maintenance this will change and may mean set allocations being rejigged.

For example if one 4-car set that is supposed to be part of an 8-car set goes unserviceable, they may need to replace that train with a 6-car train if another 4-car set wasn't available to replace it in order to offer the maximum capacity on that service.

That will in all likelihood mean a knock-on effect on other services.

Again, rostering public transport is massively more complicated than I think you understand it to be and while it may seem straightforward to reduce train lengths at times, there can be a whole variety of reasons as to why it can't happen.

I am sure it is complicated, but how often do train sets go out of service? Are they maintained correctly, and are they inherently unreliable?

Is there a way that the train length could be indicated on the timetable? (or is it secret?)

LXFlyer · 30-03-2017 1:51pm

Sam Russell wrote: »

I am sure it is complicated, but how often do train sets go out of service? Are they maintained correctly, and are they inherently unreliable?

Is there a way that the train length could be indicated on the timetable? (or is it secret?)

The trains are not inherently unreliable, but issues will occur. I was just giving that as an example. Why sets get swapped could be down to a multitude of reasons.

There could be other reasons - a particular train may be needed to be longer later in the day due to events at Lansdowne Road for example and are swapped around to facilitate that.

Train lengths are not in the public domain currently, but there are most definitely set rosters in place.

Sam Russell · 30-03-2017 5:50pm

Another approach would be to run trains from DL to Clontarf or some other convenient station on the northside and back to relieve capacity, or turn northbound at GCD. Perhaps some trains skipping rarely used stations might speed things.

I think some new thinking is needed.

Edit: I mean North bound at GCD.

Grandeeod · 30-03-2017 6:46pm

roddney wrote: »

Occurred to me today while walking through IFSC and Grand Canal Dock area, how out of date Dart Underground Route is, based on current developments under construction.

Grand Canal area (between Liffey and Grand Canal Basin) is not actually that well served. Same for Southern End of IFSC. Yes Luas runs there, but not train.

Capital One, is biggest development in city.

Would make sense to route Dart Underground more south. From Docklands to Grand Canal Dock, with an extra stop near to Grand Canal Square.

Well Roddney, you will get a chance to express that opinion once we go to DU public consultation yet again. You may even walk through the IFSC and GCD area with your grand children and realise that the proposed route is yet again out of date. Then you can invite your grand children to make their first submission. It may not be their last.

LXFlyer · 30-03-2017 7:22pm

Sam Russell wrote: »

Another approach would be to run trains from DL to Clontarf or some other convenient station on the northside and back to relieve capacity, or turn northbound at GCD. Perhaps some trains skipping rarely used stations might speed things.

I think some new thinking is needed.

Edit: I mean North bound at GCD.

I don't think destroying the core product of a train every 15 minutes from every station between Howth Junction and Bray is a very bright solution.

There are already peak time extras that terminate at Dún Laoghaire or Connolly.

strassenwo!f · 03-04-2017 4:18pm

roddney wrote: »

Occurred to me today while walking through IFSC and Grand Canal Dock area, how out of date Dart Underground Route is, based on current developments under construction.

Grand Canal area (between Liffey and Grand Canal Basin) is not actually that well served. Same for Southern End of IFSC. Yes Luas runs there, but not train.

Capital One, is biggest development in city.

Would make sense to route Dart Underground more south. From Docklands to Grand Canal Dock, with an extra stop near to Grand Canal Square.

It's an interesting idea, Roddney, but my initial feeling is that this is an area which would be better served by LUAS, as the network develops.

Firstly, it would be a very short distance between your proposed station at (or near) Grand Canal Square and any station at (or near) Spencer Dock. Secondly, any line running between Spencer Dock and Grand Canal Square would probably include a very very tight curve, perhaps impossibly tight, if it is also to include a station at Pearse Station.

MJohnston · 03-04-2017 5:09pm

If there was no Docklands DU station you could get a GCS one in there without any problematic gradients. There are similar bends on the previous DU plan.

strassenwo!f · 04-04-2017 12:11am

MJohnston wrote: »

If there was no Docklands DU station you could get a GCS one in there without any problematic gradients. There are similar bends on the previous DU plan.

Though Roddney seemed to be talking about a station at both locations. But I'd imagine you're right that you could have a station near the Grand Canal basin, and not have a station at Spencer Dock, if that was deemed to be sensible.

There certainly were lots of curves on the earlier DU plan.

But it might be a bit of a stretch to have a very tight curve between St. Stephen's Green and Pearse, then another one between Pearse and the Grand Canal area, and then yet another one from the Grand Canal area to whatever Northern line connection there might be.

Dubliners might like a trip on a rollercoaster when they're on holidays. They may not yet be ready for it on their daily commute.

spuddy · 09-04-2017 8:47pm

Not sure if this was mentioned already, but Catherine Murphy recently inquired about the redesign of DU. Alas nothing particularly new.

Rail Services Provision
1208. Deputy Catherine Murphy Information on Catherine Murphy Zoom on Catherine Murphy asked the Minister for Transport, Tourism and Sport Information on Shane P.N. Ross Zoom on Shane P.N. Ross the amount that was spent on the interconnector, DART underground project which did not proceed; the percentage of the project that can be reused in a scenario whereby a redesign is proceeded with; if redesign work is under way; if so, the stage at which it is at; and if he will make a statement on the matter. [13499/17]

Minister for Transport, Tourism and Sport (Deputy Shane Ross): Information on Shane P.N. Ross Zoom on Shane P.N. Ross Exchequer spending to end 2014 on the DART Underground Tunnel (previously known as the DART interconnector) project amounted to â‚¬44.4 million, most of which related to design, planning and railway order costs. As the Deputy is aware, the Government decided in September 2015 that the original proposal for the tunnel should be redesigned. The work and costs incurred to date in relation to the project will have value when the redesigned project proceeds.

The National Transport Authority (NTA) has commenced work on the redesign of the tunnel in collaboration with Irish Rail and will progress this redesign work in line with available funding. Currently a study to re-examine tunnel size options is nearing completion and the NTA will shortly be commencing an assessment to determine the optimal connection location for the DART Underground Tunnel to tie-in to the Heuston Mainline. Other work is also ongoing in relation to tunnel variants.

Funding has been provided under the Government's current Capital Plan for work on the redesign of the tunnel and other elements of the DART Expansion Programme including for the extension of the DART to Balbriggan.

marno21 · 13-05-2017 8:35pm

Shane Ross wrote:

I have been advised by the National Transport Authority (NTA) that the tunnel configuration study, which identified tunnel type options that may be used in further development of the DART Underground Tunnel project, has been completed. Separately, other work is ongoing to examine and assess other aspects of the project.

As I have previously outlined to the Deputy, funding has been provided under the Capital Plan for work on the redesign of the tunnel and other elements of the overall DART Expansion Programme.

Latest on DART Expansion. No funding besides can kicking until 2021.

Peregrine · 13-05-2017 9:05pm

I'd like to see them do more projects such as removing level crossings and further electrification in the meantime.

I know they're looking at removing Merrion Gates and electrification to Balbriggan but I'd like to see them use the proposed road from Strand Road to Merrion Road to close Sydney Parade along with Merrion Gates, build a bridge at Ashtown etc.

DART expansion is such a big project, there's no reason to wait around for the tunnel and do it all in one go. Except an inept minister and money, I suppose.

dublinman1990 · 13-05-2017 9:36pm

I would not agree with closing Sydney Parade DART Station at all. It is located nearby to cater for school students attending St Michael's College in Ailesbury Road as they don't live on a direct bus route to the college & for people who attend the St Vincent's Hospital campus for appointments & visits etc.

Any move to remove the level crossing or to close the DART Station will be severely resisted by locals too btw.

Peregrine · 13-05-2017 9:41pm

dublinman1990 wrote: »

I would not agree with closing Sydney Parade DART Station at all. It is located nearby to cater for school students attending St Michael's College in Ailesbury Road as they don't live on a direct bus route to the college & for people who attend the St Vincent's Hospital campus for appointments & visits etc.

Any move to remove the level crossing or to close the DART Station will be severely resisted by locals too btw.

I never mentioned closing the station at all. Only removing the level crossing. It has to happen.

I'm aware of the resistance from the locals. Even the current Merrion Gates proposal that improves everyone's experience is being resisted by the locals. Id still like to see it go ahead though.

Sam Russell · 13-05-2017 10:04pm

Peregrine wrote: »

I never mentioned closing the station at all. Only removing the level crossing. It has to happen.

I'm aware of the resistance from the locals. Even the current Merrion Gates proposal that improves everyone's experience is being resisted by the locals. Id still like to see it go ahead though.

Locals always oppose things in their back yard.

1. It affects them directly.

2. Sometimes they have local knowledge that is not listened to - or is not considered.

Many of the objections relate to the reduction of front gardens and the removal of current parking. As far as I am aware, there will be no CPOs of houses, only peripheral land.

The fortuitous location of two car parks either side of the railway line allowing such a clever diversion of Strand Road to the Merrion Road passing over the Dart line and allowing the closing of the Merrion Gates was quite astonishing in its simplicity. They had better get on with it before DCC grants planning permission for two tower blocks on the car parks.

If the Merrion Gates proposal (which includes substantial cycle infrastructure components) does go ahead, it will be some time before it starts, and quite a long time till it is operational. So I would not hold my breath.

Sydney Parade level crossing should not be affected, however, with the lower traffic levels, and the fact it will be closed for more than half the time, it will become just a local convenience.

strassenwo!f · 13-05-2017 11:40pm

While we're on that area of the city, I was over there the last time I was in Dublin, and there seemed to be a bit of overkill with signage on the approach roads to the level crossings around Lansdowne Road, Serpentine Avenue, Sandymount Avenue, Sydney Parade and Merrion Gates.

I counted 17 (seventeen) on the approaches to the level crossing on Sandymount Avenue alone - and there may have been some that I missed.

I understand that it's important that truck drivers need to be aware of overhead wires, but showing pictures of a steam engine on a road sign probably isn't the best way to impart the necessary message.

Still, good news if you're the sign producer.

CatInABox · 14-05-2017 11:48am

strassenwo!f wrote: »

While we're on that area of the city, I was over there the last time I was in Dublin, and there seemed to be a bit of overkill with signage on the approach roads to the level crossings around Lansdowne Road, Serpentine Avenue, Sandymount Avenue, Sydney Parade and Merrion Gates.

I counted 17 (seventeen) on the approaches to the level crossing on Sandymount Avenue alone - and there may have been some that I missed.

I understand that it's important that truck drivers need to be aware of overhead wires, but showing pictures of a steam engine on a road sign probably isn't the best way to impart the necessary message.

Still, good news if you're the sign producer.

You'd be surprised at the number of near misses on those crossings. It's unreal.

Avada · 14-05-2017 11:59am

CatInABox wrote: »

You'd be surprised at the number of near misses on those crossings. It's unreal.

That's lack of enforcement. Every level crossing in Dublin should have CCTV enforcement.

Sam Russell · 14-05-2017 12:59pm

Avada wrote: »

That's lack of enforcement. Every level crossing in Dublin should have CCTV enforcement.

Sydney Parade does have CCTV and ANPR as well, plus a notice warning that it may be used in prosecutions - but it does not stop the loonies driving across at high speed to try and beat the gates.

Avada · 14-05-2017 3:29pm

Sam Russell wrote: »

Sydney Parade does have CCTV and ANPR as well, plus a notice warning that it may be used in prosecutions - but it does not stop the loonies driving across at high speed to try and beat the gates.

Thats a very recent addition I would think, wasnt aware it was there

Sam Russell · 14-05-2017 11:28pm

Avada wrote: »

Thats a very recent addition I would think, wasnt aware it was there

Been there a year I think. There is a blue notice either side of the line warning about it. The one on the west is in English and the one on the East is in Irish. It is quite a small sign with lots of small writing on it so I would presume no-one has read either of them.

LeinsterDub · 15-05-2017 11:43am

http://www.independent.ie/regionals/fingalindependent/news/rail-services-in-fingal-creaking-under-the-strain-35692088.html

'Fianna Fáil is fully committed to these projects. We need to see the same determination from Government on this issue. I along with my colleagues in Fingal County Council will continue to pursue these matters with the Transport Minister in the Dáil so that commuter services in north Dublin can be transformed for the benefit of everyone living in this area.'

He continued and of course by fully committed we meant not committed enough to include these projects in the Supply and Confidence agreement or to threaten to pull the plug on the government .

Grandeeod · 15-05-2017 7:24pm

LeinsterDub wrote: »

http://www.independent.ie/regionals/fingalindependent/news/rail-services-in-fingal-creaking-under-the-strain-35692088.html

He continued and of course by fully committed we meant not committed enough to include these projects in the Supply and Confidence agreement or to threaten to pull the plug on the government .

FF, the cheerleaders of DU and MN don't give a fiddlers beyond a few moany hole press releases. No votes in it and never were.

thomasj · 30-06-2017 7:05pm

Hope there is good news here

https://www.kildarenow.com/news/plans-bring-dart-kildare-advanced-stage-nta-consider-expansion/170113

DART+ (DART Expansion)

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