M17/M18 - Gort to Tuam [open to traffic]

Carawaystick · 02-03-2016 1:02pm

Geogregor wrote: »

It might be silly question but doesn't limestone get too easily eroded by water to be used so widely? Limestone is the reason why we have karst topography.

The time to get Karst >>> the design lifetime of the road.

paul2013 · 02-03-2016 1:53pm

Did anyone read the Irish Independent about the person who bought a plane in Shannon Airport for E20K? Was supposed to moving the plane by road through all the towns that have been bypassed to Enniscrone in Sligo. Now he's going moving plane by boat along the Atlantic ocean.

Also that picture of Rathmorrissey Junction, (the southern side from looking at the picture) Is that
(South Galway- Gort) or (North Galway- Tuam) ?

irishgeo · 02-03-2016 1:59pm

paul2013 wrote: »

Did anyone read the Irish Independent about the person who bought a plane in Shannon Airport for E20K? Was supposed to moving the plane by road through all the towns that have been bypassed to Enniscrone in Sligo. Now he's going moving plane by boat along the Atlantic ocean.

mainly because of the huge amount of esb wires and traffic lights he would have to fork out to move.

m17 · 02-03-2016 2:00pm

paul2013 wrote: »

Did anyone read the Irish Independent about the person who bought a plane in Shannon Airport for E20K? Was supposed to moving the plane by road through all the towns that have been bypassed to Enniscrone in Sligo. Now he's going moving plane by boat along the Atlantic ocean.

Also that picture of Rathmorrissey Junction, (the southern side from looking at the picture) Is that
(South Galway- Gort) or (North Galway- Tuam) ?

That is the gort side

mayo.mick · 02-03-2016 2:11pm

paul2013 wrote: »

Did anyone read the Irish Independent about the person who bought a plane in Shannon Airport for E20K? Was supposed to moving the plane by road through all the towns that have been bypassed to Enniscrone in Sligo. Now he's going moving plane by boat along the Atlantic ocean.

Also that picture of Rathmorrissey Junction, (the southern side from looking at the picture) Is that
(South Galway- Gort) or (North Galway- Tuam) ?

This is brilliant, well worth a listen and give you a laugh!

Radio interview with him on today fm here;

http://www.todayfm.com/player/podcasts/The_Anton_Savage_Show/The_Anton_Savage_Show/50272/2/How_do_you_get_a_Boeing_767_from_Shannon_to_Sligo

Carawaystick · 02-03-2016 3:19pm

paul2013 wrote: »

Also that picture of Rathmorrissey Junction, (the southern side from looking at the picture) Is that
(South Galway- Gort) or (North Galway- Tuam) ?

The Pylons go north of the M6, also their shadows never point south...:D

Schadenfreudia · 02-03-2016 9:04pm

Geogregor wrote: »

It might be silly question but doesn't limestone get too easily eroded by water to be used so widely? Limestone is the reason why we have karst topography.

That takes eons! Many of our 18th country houses are built of limestone and still in perfect condition.

Schadenfreudia · 02-03-2016 9:07pm

Carawaystick wrote: »

The Pylons go north of the M6, also their shadows never point south...:D

Surprised they didn't take the opportunity to underground the ESB wires at the junction.

The re-jigged pylons must have cost nearly as much.

marno21 · 02-03-2016 9:48pm

Schadenfreudia wrote: »

Surprised they didn't take the opportunity to underground the ESB wires at the junction.

The re-jigged pylons must have cost nearly as much.

Surprised they didn't take the opportunity to create a fully free flow junction in the middle of absolutely nowhere where land costs are not high.

The rejigged soon to be signalised roundabout must have cost nearly as much.

red bull · 02-03-2016 9:53pm

Geogregor wrote: »

It might be silly question but doesn't limestone get too easily eroded by water to be used so widely? Limestone is the reason why we have karst topography.

Castle's and round towers built centuries ago of limestone are still standing and many occupied.

Geogregor · 02-03-2016 11:45pm

Schadenfreudia wrote: »

That takes eons! Many of our 18th country houses are built of limestone and still in perfect condition.

red bull wrote: »

Castle's and round towers built centuries ago of limestone are still standing and many occupied.

OK, I got the message.
I was taking too much of a geographer, or even geologist, approach, long term one

aw · 03-03-2016 10:03am

marno21 wrote: »

Surprised they didn't take the opportunity to create a fully free flow junction in the middle of absolutely nowhere where land costs are not high.

The rejigged soon to be signalised roundabout must have cost nearly as much.

Coming late into this discussion, I'm curious about this...

Why would they not have considered this at design time?

Is there a known reason that the current design was chosen?

Would the free-flow method be significantly better - better enough to justify the land costs?

Or was it a shortsighted decision that will lead to costly changes in a few years?

m17 · 03-03-2016 1:50pm

aw wrote: »

Coming late into this discussion, I'm curious about this...

Why would they not have considered this at design time?

Is there a known reason that the current design was chosen?

Would the free-flow method be significantly better - better enough to justify the land costs?

Or was it a shortsighted decision that will lead to costly changes in a few years?

The could have went with a whirlpool layout,with all that cheap land

Zubeneschamali · 03-03-2016 3:24pm

aw wrote: »

Why would they not have considered this at design time?

Low projected traffic volumes - this isn't the M50 crossing the N6.

paul2013 · 03-03-2016 4:16pm

Zubeneschamali wrote: »

Low projected traffic volumes - this isn't the M50 crossing the N6.

Them brainy architects that have flooded Ireland with water could have easily built a junction like the Junction 12 for Ennis on the M18 or like Junction 9 for Shannon Airport on the N18

Carawaystick · 03-03-2016 4:41pm

Schadenfreudia wrote: »

Surprised they didn't take the opportunity to underground the ESB wires at the junction.

The re-jigged pylons must have cost nearly as much.

The esb would have had to buy land to fence off where the wires transitioned from overground to underground.
They might have had to cpo the land, and there go your savings.

D Trent · 03-03-2016 5:20pm

Carawaystick wrote: »

The esb would have had to buy land to fence off where the wires transitioned from overground to underground.
They might have had to cpo the land, and there go your savings.

Why can't the lines transition within the confines of the junction on NRA's /TII's land ?

Schadenfreudia · 03-03-2016 10:40pm

m17 wrote: »

The could have went with a whirlpool layout,with all that cheap land

That would have been nice for Ireland's only autobahnkreuz.

mackerski · 03-03-2016 11:40pm

paul2013 wrote: »

Them brainy architects that have flooded Ireland with water could have easily built a junction like the Junction 12 for Ennis on the M18 or like Junction 9 for Shannon Airport on the N18

But why? Those are crappy junctions, even worse than what we are getting:

http://www.openstreetmap.org/#map=16/52.8269/-8.9351
http://www.openstreetmap.org/#map=15/52.7262/-8.8780

In no way would you want a junction like that on a motorway-motorway connection (no, I'm not keen on the stack either).

Geogregor · 04-03-2016 12:29am

Schadenfreudia wrote: »

That would have been nice for Ireland's only autobahnkreuz.

It is quite funny that it is located that far from main population centre of the island

Sure, the design might not perfect but with the traffic levels predicted here the current junction should handle the traffic without problems.

Schadenfreudia · 04-03-2016 12:37am

Geogregor wrote: »

It is quite funny that it is located that far from main population centre of the island

Sure, the design might not perfect but with the traffic levels predicted here the current junction should handle the traffic without problems.

Easy to fix if that's required in the next 30 years - which is highly unlikely.

Remember they built junctions like that on the M50 originally - now that was daft!

marno21 · 04-03-2016 2:01am

Schadenfreudia wrote: »

Easy to fix if that's required in the next 30 years - which is highly unlikely.

Remember they built junctions like that on the M50 originally - now that was daft!

There is still four of them on Cork's South Ring.

In Dublin, signalised roundabouts were upgraded to full free flow. In Cork at grade signalised roundabouts were upgraded to grade separated signalised roundabouts.

Why didn't they decide to build a full freeflownjunction here. No point in building a motorway if you are going to put roundabouts at major interchanges

Schadenfreudia · 04-03-2016 2:14am

marno21 wrote: »

Why didn't they decide to build a full freeflownjunction here. No point in building a motorway if you are going to put roundabouts at major interchanges

Well, that's a wee bit OTT!

I guess roundabouts are cheaper....and we don't like to overspend on infrastructure, do we?

marno21 · 04-03-2016 4:09am

Schadenfreudia wrote: »

Well, that's a wee bit OTT!

I guess roundabouts are cheaper....and we don't like to overspend on infrastructure, do we?

Slightly OT, but look at Waterford. A motorway (M9) with free flowing traffic at 120km/h. All dumped into a pair of roundabouts. If you are going to the expense of building a motorway you should have equally high quality, high capacity junctions to deal with the motorway traffic.

Same story here, free flowing traffic at 120km/h should not have to use a roundabout to change between roads. AADT does not come into this, if traffic volumes justify a motorway then they surely justify a free flow junction.

Zubeneschamali · 04-03-2016 7:10am

marno21 wrote: »

AADT does not come into this, if traffic volumes justify a motorway then they surely justify a free flow junction.

Traffic volumes here do not justify motorways - the M6 was planned as a dualler.

But hey, Celtic tiger, loadsamoney, etc.

D Trent · 04-03-2016 8:20am

Site selected
http://galwaybayfm.ie/step-forward-for-controversial-motorway-service-station-between-athenry-and-oranmore/

Irish_rat · 04-03-2016 8:47am

Zubeneschamali wrote: »

Traffic volumes here do not justify motorways - the M6 was planned as a dualler.

But hey, Celtic tiger, loadsamoney, etc.

It's called future proofing. In the NRA needs study manual it listed projections for traffic over a period of 20 years.

Type 2 dual carriageway is short-sighted on a major inter-urban road. I think it's been a crucial aspect in the recovery of this country. The one thing the Celtic Tiger delivered.

Zubeneschamali · 04-03-2016 10:15am

Irish_rat wrote: »

It's called future proofing. In the NRA needs study manual it listed projections for traffic over a period of 20 years.

So, what's the biggest projected traffic number for the M17-18?

Carawaystick · 04-03-2016 10:16am

Zubeneschamali wrote: »

Traffic volumes here do not justify motorways - the M6 was planned as a dualler.

But hey, Celtic tiger, loadsamoney, etc.

Apart form the sign colour and speedlimit, what's the difference between a HQDC and motorway?

Reuben1210 · 04-03-2016 11:16am

Carawaystick wrote: »

Apart form the sign colour and speedlimit, what's the difference between a HQDC and motorway?

Spacing of junctions, all junctions grade-separated, and any vehicles under 60cc not permitted, including bikes. In addition, no farm machinery permitted.

aw · 04-03-2016 11:24am

D Trent wrote: »

Site selected
http://galwaybayfm.ie/step-forward-for-controversial-motorway-service-station-between-athenry-and-oranmore/

Would this not have been ideally located at or near the Rathmorrissy interchange, serving both routes?

It seems Pat McDonagh has stolen a march on it for the M6.

A literal feast or famine for service stations!

Sam Russell · 04-03-2016 11:35am

Carawaystick wrote: »

Apart form the sign colour and speedlimit, what's the difference between a HQDC and motorway?

The cost.

There was no need to build a full motorway spec road on the M6 west of Athlone as the traffic does not warrant it and never will. A grade separated dualler would have done at probably less than half the cost. It would also not have needed the toll.

The M17/M18 is also overspecced and a grade speparated dualler would also have done the job - after all they will be extending northward with a dualler.

red bull · 04-03-2016 11:46am

Sam Russell wrote: »

The cost.

There was no need to build a full motorway spec road on the M6 west of Athlone as the traffic does not warrant it and never will. A grade separated dualler would have done at probably less than half the cost. It would also not have needed the toll.

The M17/M18 is also overspecced and a grade speparated dualler would also have done the job - after all they will be extending northward with a dualler.

There we go again, west of the Shannon is a different country

Cookiemunster · 04-03-2016 11:48am

Sam Russell wrote: »

The cost.

There was no need to build a full motorway spec road on the M6 west of Athlone as the traffic does not warrant it and never will. A grade separated dualler would have done at probably less than half the cost. It would also not have needed the toll.

The M17/M18 is also overspecced and a grade speparated dualler would also have done the job - after all they will be extending northward with a dualler.

But there is no physical difference between HQDC which was being built anyway and motorway. I'm not even sure the Ennis bypass section of the M18 was a HQDC and that got upgraded to motorway.

m17 · 04-03-2016 1:05pm

Zubeneschamali wrote: »

So, what's the biggest projected traffic number for the M17-18?

There right here

m17 · 04-03-2016 1:08pm

Sam Russell wrote: »

The cost.

There was no need to build a full motorway spec road on the M6 west of Athlone as the traffic does not warrant it and never will. A grade separated dualler would have done at probably less than half the cost. It would also not have needed the toll.

The M17/M18 is also overspecced and a grade speparated dualler would also have done the job - after all they will be extending northward with a dualler.

The m6 athlone to galway is one of the best motorways in the country

Zubeneschamali · 04-03-2016 1:17pm

m17 wrote: »

There right here

Thanks, m17, but those are the projected 2014 numbers, not the projected 2034 numbers which apparently require a freeflow motorway junction.

I am quite happy to see them overspecify this road - I just think folks saying this junction is underspecced should show some numbers.

Sam Russell · 04-03-2016 1:32pm

m17 wrote: »

There right here

11,800 daily traffic to/from Limerick is less than 500 per hour or more than 7 seconds between cars. Hardly busy.

How are these figures derived? Is there a published methodology? Is it the same methodology used to justify the Western Rail Corridor?

marno21 · 04-03-2016 1:47pm

Reuben1210 wrote: »

Spacing of junctions, all junctions grade-separated, and any vehicles under 60cc not permitted, including bikes. In addition, no farm machinery permitted.

All junctions on a HQDC are grade seperated. Vehicles under 50cc, bikes and tractors are permitted on a HQDC. A motorway is a HQDC with access restrictions.

aw wrote: »

Would this not have been ideally located at or near the Rathmorrissy interchange, serving both routes?

It seems Pat McDonagh has stolen a march on it for the M6.

A literal feast or famine for service stations!

It was originally planned to be tacked onto the roundabout at Rathmorrissey. There seems to be someone in TII who really, really wants a service area between J19 and J17 on the M6. It's baffling why it's so important there's one there.

Sam Russell wrote: »

The cost.

There was no need to build a full motorway spec road on the M6 west of Athlone as the traffic does not warrant it and never will. A grade separated dualler would have done at probably less than half the cost. It would also not have needed the toll.

The M17/M18 is also overspecced and a grade speparated dualler would also have done the job - after all they will be extending northward with a dualler.

The M17/M18 is overspecced for a Gort-Tuam motorway. If it was a Gort-Galway & Tuam-Galway it would warrant a higher grade of road.

Cookiemunster wrote: »

But there is no physical difference between HQDC which was being built anyway and motorway. I'm not even sure the Ennis bypass section of the M18 was a HQDC and that got upgraded to motorway.

There isn't. The Ennis bypass was a standard DC which was redesignated as motorway. You can see it even with how narrow the hard shoulders are, and how tight the curves on the Barefield (J14) junction are.

Reuben1210 · 04-03-2016 1:57pm

aw wrote: »

Would this not have been ideally located at or near the Rathmorrissy interchange, serving both routes?

It seems Pat McDonagh has stolen a march on it for the M6.

A literal feast or famine for service stations!

Touché

Sam Russell · 04-03-2016 2:01pm

marno21 wrote: »

The M17/M18 is overspecced for a Gort-Tuam motorway. If it was a Gort-Galway & Tuam-Galway it would warrant a higher grade of road.

If the traffic rate on the M17 and M18 averages one car every 7 seconds, then it is overspecced. The traffic figures I used were for the M18, but they are only estimates of future use. The Galway traffic is on the M6.

Reuben1210 · 04-03-2016 2:06pm

marno21 wrote: »

All junctions on a HQDC are grade seperated. Vehicles under 50cc, bikes and tractors are permitted on a HQDC. A motorway is a HQDC with access restrictions.

Yeah, and bikes and tractors aren't permitted on a motorway. There are no permitted accesses other than at junctions or emergency access. There must also be a road all the way along the motorway for emergency access.

Is one of the definitions of HQDC grade separation? as opposed to D2?

If so, I am not sure where a doubling of the cost is coming from in that case so?

One of the rare examples of an Irish government investing strategically was building a motorway standard inter-urban network. Always best to overspec than underspec and the disaster of the m50 is showing just today!

moyners · 04-03-2016 2:50pm

Reuben1210 wrote: »

marno21 wrote: »

All junctions on a HQDC are grade seperated. Vehicles under 50cc, bikes and tractors are permitted on a HQDC. A motorway is a HQDC with access restrictions.

Yeah, and bikes and tractors aren't permitted on a motorway. There are no permitted accesses other than at junctions or emergency access. There must also be a road all the way along the motorway for emergency access.

Is one of the definitions of HQDC grade separation? as opposed to D2?

If so, I am not sure where a doubling of the cost is coming from in that case so?

One of the rare examples of an Irish government investing strategically was building a motorway standard inter-urban network. Always best to overspec than underspec and the disaster of the m50 is showing just today!

Tractors are permitted on the motorway if they're capable of travelling 50km/h. Which is insane if you ask me.

Sam Russell · 04-03-2016 2:55pm

Reuben1210 wrote: »

Is one of the definitions of HQDC grade separation? as opposed to D2?

If so, I am not sure where a doubling of the cost is coming from in that case so?

One of the rare examples of an Irish government investing strategically was building a motorway standard inter-urban network. Always best to overspec than underspec and the disaster of the m50 is showing just today!

The increased cost of a motorway rather than a dual carriageway comes from the need for a wider corridor (higher CPO cost), more earth works to reduce undulations and reduce curves, tighter specifications for on ramps and off ramps, and higher finance charges to fund PPP (they get some of the money - don't they?).

The public also pay the toll.

Over spec a motorway over a dual carriageway that would be sufficient is not a good investment in the future. Underspec a road in Dublin is a different matter - one third of the total population of the country are affected by the M50. The total population affected by the M17/M18 Gort to Tuam motorway is less than those using the M50 in one day.

Remember 25,000,000 passengers travelled through Dublin Airport last year and there is no rail connection but one could be built for less than half the cost of the Gort to Tuam motorway.

m17 · 04-03-2016 3:46pm

Sam Russell wrote: »

The increased cost of a motorway rather than a dual carriageway comes from the need for a wider corridor (higher CPO cost), more earth works to reduce undulations and reduce curves, tighter specifications for on ramps and off ramps, and higher finance charges to fund PPP (they get some of the money - don't they?).

The public also pay the toll.

Over spec a motorway over a dual carriageway that would be sufficient is not a good investment in the future. Underspec a road in Dublin is a different matter - one third of the total population of the country are affected by the M50. The total population affected by the M17/M18 Gort to Tuam motorway is less than those using the M50 in one day.

Remember 25,000,000 passengers travelled through Dublin Airport last year and there is no rail connection but one could be built for less than half the cost of the Gort to Tuam motorway.

It's about time the west got sum investment,the east seem too get everything,the should have built the rail link when the where building t2

Sam Russell · 04-03-2016 3:50pm

m17 wrote: »

It's about time the west got sum investment,the east seem too get everything

What sum were you thinking of?

What capital spending has been going towards Dublin and the commuter belt? The whole area is grinding to a halt. The government did authorise the planning of both Dart Underground and Metro North - only to cancel them both before a shovel was lifted. The amount spent on the two failed efforts would have done a significant amount if it was productive.

Carawaystick · 04-03-2016 4:02pm

Sam Russell wrote: »

The increased cost of a motorway rather than a dual carriageway comes from the need for a wider corridor (higher CPO cost), more earth works to reduce undulations and reduce curves, tighter specifications for on ramps and off ramps, and higher finance charges to fund PPP (they get some of the money - don't they?).

But we have motorways with no hard shoulders (M1, M50)
Motorways with LILO junctions (M18)
Motorways entirely funded by the state, no ppp (M9)

Yet we have Dual carriageways with higher finance charges for ppp (N25)

Lots of our motorways were Dual carriageways, before a lick of blue paint on the signs changed them.

You're hardly suggesting we build a new road like this?
https://www.google.ie/maps/@54.4821848,-6.0688692,3a,75y,1.81h,60.07t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1sK8Rf5HBc789Se1kvjmf4Bw!2e0!7i13312!8i6656?hl=en

Sam Russell · 04-03-2016 5:05pm

Carawaystick wrote: »

You're hardly suggesting we build a new road like this?
https://www.google.ie/maps/@54.4821848,-6.0688692,3a,75y,1.81h,60.07t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1sK8Rf5HBc789Se1kvjmf4Bw!2e0!7i13312!8i6656?hl=en

That is a standard dual carriageway in NI. We have roads like that - the Stillorgan DC. I am suggesting a lower spec motorway standard midway between the dc you show and the ultra high spec M6 between Athlone and Galway. Even the stretch between Kinnegad and Athlone is lower spec and it was elevated to motorway after it was finished.

If the M6(W) had double the traffic, it still would be way off full. I do not believe the traffic projections for 2014 will even be met by 2024, and even at that they will be tiny compared to the N7 Naas to Mad Cow.

Reuben1210 · 04-03-2016 5:11pm

Sam Russell wrote: »

The increased cost of a motorway rather than a dual carriageway comes from the need for a wider corridor (higher CPO cost), more earth works to reduce undulations and reduce curves, tighter specifications for on ramps and off ramps, and higher finance charges to fund PPP (they get some of the money - don't they?).

Ok, thanks for that.

Sam Russell wrote: »

The public also pay the toll.

On some roads, not all Ie:M11

Sam Russell wrote: »

Over spec a motorway over a dual carriageway that would be sufficient is not a good investment in the future. Underspec a road in Dublin is a different matter - one third of the total population of the country are affected by the M50. The total population affected by the M17/M18 Gort to Tuam motorway is less than those using the M50 in one day.

Fair enough, and cheaper and easier to upgrade in future due to sparsely populated areas.

Sam Russell wrote: »

Remember 25,000,000 passengers travelled through Dublin Airport last year and there is no rail connection but one could be built for less than half the cost of the Gort to Tuam motorway.

Yeah, over 250M€ wasted on DART underground and metro north planning, as they were both cancelled. That's 90m€ more than it cost to build the flyover at newland's cross, and the Arklow-Rathnew Motorway scheme.

Reuben1210 · 04-03-2016 5:12pm

Sam Russell wrote: »

What sum were you thinking of?

What capital spending has been going towards Dublin and the commuter belt? The whole area is grinding to a halt. The government did authorise the planning of both Dart Underground and Metro North - only to cancel them both before a shovel was lifted. The amount spent on the two failed efforts would have done a significant amount if it was productive.

And in the last year, Dublin has got so so much more congested...it really is close to grinding to a halt.....possibly deterring FDI

M17/M18 - Gort to Tuam [open to traffic]

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