Gardai carrying Guns

cena · 30-06-2012 9:31pm #1

Why do the guards not carry guns with at all times. Are we the only country were the law don't carry a gun

POGAN · 30-06-2012 9:55pm

Uniformed members you see walking the beat would not carry arms can't ever see a day they will, most detectives carry side arms, you have regional support unit and emergency response units that would have large range of less lethal and lethal weapons

Black Swan · 30-06-2012 9:58pm

cena wrote: »

Are we the only country were the law don't carry a gun

UK, New Zealand, and Norway generally do not carry firearms.

Turner · 30-06-2012 10:51pm

I believe all Gardai should be armed, there is no point in arming some Gardai and have unarmed Gardai required to attend armed calls.

I would guess it is down to money. 14000 guns and training would cost a lot. They can barely afford cars.

Many members work alone in rural areas. How are they supposed to respond to armed robberies or aggrevated burglaries?

Motorcyclist also should be armed, they travel alone and cannot wear ballistic vests (due to their other gear)

I do believe though that if you were to arm the Gardai you would also have to provide them with Tasers as a less lethal option.

Every town in Ireland has criminals with accecss to guns.. its time to arm all the Gardai to not only protect the public but also themselves.

The old saying of "If you arm the Gardai all the criminals will arm themselves" is bullsh1t.

Any gouger doing a robbery be it xtravision a shop or petrol station brings a knife or gun.

Any serious criminals doing bank robbery's or cash in transit robbery's will be part of a group and will all be armed.

Random · 30-06-2012 10:55pm

i wonder if we armed all the gardai, would we have cops that act like the american ones do on shows like "cops"?

i remember watching a road wars episode where 2 of the uk (unarmed) cops went to the states to go around with some american cops for a few weeks. the 2 uk lads chased down and detained an armed suspect while the american cops arrived later (they couldnt keep up or react quick enough?), guns drawn, wondernig wtf the uk lads were up to.

there seems to be a bit of a "hands on" approach to some policing by unarmed forces while if you look at the americans (for example) its all guns drawn escalating minor things into big messes in a hurry. at the end of the day the cop seems to either shoot or have to holster his weapon and chase anyway.

i think it would be a good idea to arm all the gardai, provided they (most of them anyway!) continue to use a bit of the common sense approach and dont turn into those american (the ones protrayed on the reality tv shows anyway) cops that are just too gun happy or taser happy for no good reason.

maybe for another thread but give the gardai the equipment and the manpower they need and stop paying over inflated pensions to politions who are still ****in working.

war_child · 30-06-2012 10:57pm

I have to say with all honesty i dread the idea of all guards being armed ....most cant deal with the small amount of beat power they have and on occasion cant resist from givin someone a good kickin just coz they didnt get laid lastnight ...arming guards is NOT an option ...and i would strongly protest against this if it ever arose in Ireland ..

cocoshovel · 01-07-2012 2:45am

I dont think all Gardai should be armed, instead there should be a lot more RSU units that are never too far away. Can you imagine the uproar that would be caused if the Gardai were armed, and then a few months later someone was shot dead?

I have to say with all honesty i dread the idea of all guards being armed ....most cant deal with the small amount of beat power they have and on occasion cant resist from givin someone a good kickin just coz they didnt get laid lastnight ...arming guards is NOT an option ...and i would strongly protest against this if it ever arose in Ireland ..

Care to elaborate on that or are you just trying to hit out at them because you dont like being told what to do?

fasttalkerchat · 01-07-2012 2:49am

I find pointing guns very aggressive. When the RUC had big machine guns pointed at you I was always intimidated by it.

Galwayguy35 · 01-07-2012 2:51am

war_child wrote: »

I have to say with all honesty i dread the idea of all guards being armed ....most cant deal with the small amount of beat power they have and on occasion cant resist from givin someone a good kickin just coz they didnt get laid lastnight ...arming guards is NOT an option ...and i would strongly protest against this if it ever arose in Ireland ..

You have proof to back up this statement have you?

Galwayguy35 · 01-07-2012 2:56am

Random wrote: »

i wonder if we armed all the gardai, would we have cops that act like the american ones do on shows like "cops"?

i remember watching a road wars episode where 2 of the uk (unarmed) cops went to the states to go around with some american cops for a few weeks. the 2 uk lads chased down and detained an armed suspect while the american cops arrived later (they couldnt keep up or react quick enough?), guns drawn, wondernig wtf the uk lads were up to.

there seems to be a bit of a "hands on" approach to some policing by unarmed forces while if you look at the americans (for example) its all guns drawn escalating minor things into big messes in a hurry. at the end of the day the cop seems to either shoot or have to holster his weapon and chase anyway.

i think it would be a good idea to arm all the gardai, provided they (most of them anyway!) continue to use a bit of the common sense approach and dont turn into those american (the ones protrayed on the reality tv shows anyway) cops that are just too gun happy or taser happy for no good reason.

maybe for another thread but give the gardai the equipment and the manpower they need and stop paying over inflated pensions to politions who are still ****in working.

Yeah and the UK cops could have just as easily got their heads blown off as well.Also these programmes are heavily edited to keep the viewer interested so you may not be seeing all that happens when suspects are being arrested.

I do think the Gardai should be armed. The €50 million the last government squandered on voting machines whould have gone a long way towards this.

jimmycrackcorm · 01-07-2012 3:18am

I don't think ordinary Guards should be armed - I cannot see the need for it at the moment. Yes - there are instances where Gardai are caught out unarmed but that's preferable to the U.S. situation where so many lose their lives to shoot-out conflicts.

POGAN · 01-07-2012 9:07am

Dublin td was complain why the gardas need oc spray When it wasn't need before 2008.
Guns would never happen

--Ryaner-- · 01-07-2012 9:22am

The next stage of Gardai being armed will be taser guns more then likely, RSU units carry these along with taser shotguns witch are very effective so far but as for normal Gardai it's a few years away be4 this happens.

war_child · 01-07-2012 11:43am

@ cocshovel and galwayguy.....its nothing to do with being told what to do most of the guards now i gurantee if a survey was done would have been bullied at school ....this in itself is a powder keg then ad a firearm to the mix youve just turned a powder keg in to a molotov cocktail...and galway in response to your question have proof to substantiate my claim yes i do it was written all over my face in august of 2004 ..were i was singled out whilst on a stags do in Carlow we had just arrived at the first pub after leaving the hotel were we had dinner armed with allof 2 pints and a pint of water in my system i was set upon by 2 plain clothes guards for nomore reason then i was from Dublin ...

Now after a lengthy investigation and camera evidence in court i was awarded 6k damages and both of the guards put on suspension without pay till they figured what to do with them

And i ask now how much worse would my night have been if those testosterone fuelled back water idiots were allowed by law to carry firearms instead of a broken rib broken cheekbone and my friends and family visting me in hospital could it have been the morgue

Now were we go from here is a choice i leave to you

WilcoOut · 01-07-2012 12:13pm

war_child wrote: »

ad a firearm to the mix youve just turned a powder keg in to a molotov cocktail...

you should have another go at that..............

Dr Turk Turkelton · 01-07-2012 12:25pm

No way should all Guards be armed this is a ludicrous suggestion.
Only guards who have proven their competence time and again and have been promoted to specialist units and higher ranks should have those responsibilities.

I'm sure any Guard on here would agree with that instead of arming every wannabe Will Smith from Ballygobackwards without any prior knowledge of their ability when under pressure and not just stopping a car for no tax as their main experience.

endacl · 01-07-2012 12:33pm

WilcoOut wrote: »

war_child wrote: »

ad a firearm to the mix youve just turned a powder keg in to a molotov cocktail...

you should have another go at that..............

Please. Do.

:-)

Duiske · 01-07-2012 12:52pm

war_child wrote: »

and galway in response to your question have proof to substantiate my claim yes i do it was written all over my face in august of 2004 ..were i was singled out whilst on a stags do in Carlow we had just arrived at the first pub after leaving the hotel were we had dinner armed with allof 2 pints and a pint of water in my system i was set upon by 2 plain clothes guards for nomore reason then i was from Dublin ...

Now after a lengthy investigation and camera evidence in court i was awarded 6k damages and both of the guards put on suspension without pay till they figured what to do with them

Surprised that this story did not at least make it to the local papers.

war_child · 01-07-2012 12:56pm

dont think so lad a powder keg is nothing without a fuse its just a threat ..the gun is that fuse which turns the normally dormant powder keg in to a hugely destructive force ....molotov cocktail ...ta da its magic

Duiske · 01-07-2012 12:59pm

war_child wrote: »

ta da its magic

No its not, its a chemical reaction.

Zambia · 01-07-2012 1:10pm

It always surprises me when this subject comes up. That so many people believe that issuing Irish police with firearms Will suddenly turn them into homicidal maniac's. An armed response unit is all well and good however when something escalates it normally escalates with very little warning.

christmas2012 · 01-07-2012 1:10pm

anyway i think the gards should be armed,its only right and proper,we need enforcement of law on the streets,and they would get proper training for it,they wouldnt be allowed to shoot willy nilly or when they feel like it,it would have to be carefully weighed situations..

war_child · 01-07-2012 1:14pm

@ duiske youd be very surprised what doesnt make it in to the papers ....

Tyron Jara · 01-07-2012 1:38pm

What about arming the regular guards with tasers? The UK traffic police now have tasers so would it be such a bad idea to get them hear too?

As for arming the guards with guns I feel the way it is now is better. Regular officers are not armed but detectives are.

goldie fish · 01-07-2012 1:42pm

war_child wrote: »

@ duiske youd be very surprised what doesnt make it in to the papers ....

Most compo cases do, particularly when Gardai are involved.

Pappa Charlie · 01-07-2012 1:51pm

goldie fish wrote: »

Most compo cases do, particularly when Gardai are involved.

Unfortunately the state dont fight as many cases as they should and give out compo pretty much to any tom dick or harry if they persist with a case. It justs costs too much to fight it. I'd rather earn my money!

Harry Bosch. · 01-07-2012 2:14pm

I do think that Gardai should be armed, i also think Gardai should have all the tools needed to do the job, from proper uniforms to equipment to cars, but we all know managements stance on these. This is a force that only in the last Five years introduced Stabvests, extendable batons, and Pepperspray, firearms for frontline Gardai wil be a long time coming. We havent got the basics sorted yet, adding firearms will only add to the list off problems. I think Tasers and more Regional support units are the way to go, for the moment at least.

Mike87 · 01-07-2012 2:53pm

I dont see the point of all garda carrying firearms. It would be far too costly and for what? THis isnt the US we live in. How often do we see/hear of a regular garda been killed after bumping into a weapon carrying maniac.

The amount of money we would spend on buying firearms/training would be extremely costly. Think about it for a second.

Lets not be under any illusion here, pistol shooting is a skill that needs to kept fine tuned. If you stop shooting for a few months and then go back to it you will be right back at square one. (Before you ask I spent years pistol shooting in the US). If a Garda cant shoot accurately, then s/he has no business shooting in public where lives are at risk from a stray bullet.

So the first big bill is to purchase and issue firearms and train every single garda in the country. Im not even going to try and guess how much that would cost.

Next you have to build training facilities in each county since the newly armed Garda will need constant practice. Some of the bigger counties may even need two or three facilities. This alone will push the bill up into the sky.

And lets not forget the constant supply of bullets that each garda would need for practicing. When I was shooting pistol it worked out at about €25 for 50 9mm rounds- which is the caliber Id assume the Garda would use.

I dont know how many Garda we have. But lets suppose theres 1000 garda in the country and lets suppose they can all get away with shooting 100 rounds a month to maintain their skill, that works out at €1.2million a year. And thats just your yearly ammunition bill.

Also are the Garda expected to practice on their own free time, or do they do get paid to do it? Is it overtime or do they take a halfday on a friday and go to the range for an hour or two?

As I already mentioned. For the most part, the average Garda walking about the street in this country is fairly safe. They might have to deal with some junkies or whatever- but thats where tasers/batons/pepperspray etc would be perfect.

Besides I can just imagine it already, all the people who get shot (and all the do-gooders supporting them) complaining they were drunk/high (because they came from a broken home) and didnt understand what was meant by "put the knife down" and since getting shot in the leg is now experiencing all sorts of difficulites and aswell as being forever disabled will also be requiring 10million euro compensation.

As for investigating and arresting the John Gilligan types, well, thats why we have smaller specialised groups who do carry firearms.

cocoshovel · 01-07-2012 2:54pm

war_child wrote: »

@ cocshovel and galwayguy.....its nothing to do with being told what to do most of the guards now i gurantee if a survey was done would have been bullied at school

What a childish statement to make. So what if they were? I highly doubt that the majority of them were, and even if they were, what difference does it make? A grown adult would not take such stupid emotions into their future job or at least one would expect them not to.

.... i was set upon by 2 plain clothes guards for nomore reason then i was from Dublin ...

Now after a lengthy investigation and camera evidence in court i was awarded 6k damages and both of the guards put on suspension without pay till they figured what to do with them

Im terribly sorry that happened but there's always another side to the story. Yes they were completely wrong in what they did to you but Im skeptical to beleieve they "set upon you" for no other reason than you were from Dublin. Even if they did, thats no reason to hate every single Garda in the country.

[/QUOTE]

Galwayguy35 · 01-07-2012 2:59pm

war_child wrote: »

@ cocshovel and galwayguy.....its nothing to do with being told what to do most of the guards now i gurantee if a survey was done would have been bullied at school ....this in itself is a powder keg then ad a firearm to the mix youve just turned a powder keg in to a molotov cocktail...and galway in response to your question have proof to substantiate my claim yes i do it was written all over my face in august of 2004 ..were i was singled out whilst on a stags do in Carlow we had just arrived at the first pub after leaving the hotel were we had dinner armed with allof 2 pints and a pint of water in my system i was set upon by 2 plain clothes guards for nomore reason then i was from Dublin ...

Now after a lengthy investigation and camera evidence in court i was awarded 6k damages and both of the guards put on suspension without pay till they figured what to do with them

And i ask now how much worse would my night have been if those testosterone fuelled back water idiots were allowed by law to carry firearms instead of a broken rib broken cheekbone and my friends and family visting me in hospital could it have been the morgue

Now were we go from here is a choice i leave to you

So 2 Guards jumped you because you were from Dublin?
How did they know you were from Dublin?

sdanseo · 01-07-2012 3:44pm

Cuchulainn1. wrote: »

No way should all Guards be armed this is a ludicrous suggestion.
Only guards who have proven their competence time and again and have been promoted to specialist units and higher ranks should have those responsibilities.

I'm sure any Guard on here would agree with that instead of arming every wannabe Will Smith from Ballygobackwards without any prior knowledge of their ability when under pressure and not just stopping a car for no tax as their main experience.

Posts like this prove two things:

1. Joe public's knowledge of the way the Gardaí work is near to zero.

2. Joe public's interpretation / general idea of AGS and their work is wrong, and that more positive media interaction is clearly required to change things. Garda Management has been backward in this regard and NEEDS to change tack NOW.

That said, I think Gardaí need to make more of an effort with their appearance. Many times I see a Guard I think they appear slovenly and unprofessional. They have the sleeves of a Hi-Vis rolled up, or a belt worn externally with all the various pouches pointing different directions, are leaning against a wall etc. There would appear; and remember that this comment comes from me, a strong supporter of the Gardaí as well as potential applicant, to be a lack of seriousness among SOME Guards.

That's not to say I want every Garda on the street to develop the attitude of US police or even some of the more serious cops in the UK. Our friendly, somewhat non-concerned attitude is common, it's Irish and it makes us different. And on talking to the Gardaí concerned, it most likely will become obvious that they care deeply about their job.

A lot of the above comes down to the uniform. Frankly, from an outside perspective, it appears utterly substandard. The Hi-Vis is substandard, the kit is ridiculous looking in parts. Removing the Hi-Vis when it's not needed (a lighter version could be happily carried in a pouch) or replacing it with the cycle unit one which every Guard in the country seems to want improves the Garda image tremendously - I always remark on how well the uniform looks without it.

(As an aside, has the patrol jacket been removed entirely? I never see it any more in Dublin and I think it looked extremely well)

At least in the US or even UK, cops give off an image that you don't want to mess with. Arming the Gardaí, if nothing else, would provide them with something of a tougher, more imposing presence. I'd be strongly in favour of arming every Garda, at the very least with Tazers, but also with firearms for their own protection and for the times they are needed. It's rare that a police officer in any other country draws their weapon in anger, and it's rare that detectives do so here. Fight with equal force, but have every tool available in the kit for when you're presented with a higher threat. Arguments that it would make the job less safe through forcing the gangs to tool up are void - the gangs are ALREADY tooled up and are for the most part fought by detectives who are all armed.

Now some would say that this is not required, that this is Ireland, that we don't want a police state - these arguments are void. A police presence deters crime, fact. An effective and high-profile police presence should only intimidate those doing something wrong, and not those that it is designed to reassure - and if anyone law-abiding finds Gardaí / Police intimidating then in my opinion the issue is with their perception and should be "got over" - they're there to ensure your safety. And they're equipped to a standard ten years behind every other western country in a lot of ways - something that must change now.

Just my €0.02.

Mike87 · 01-07-2012 4:10pm

sdeire wrote: »

Now some would say that this is not required, that this is Ireland, that we don't want a police state - these arguments are void. A police presence deters crime, fact. An effective and high-profile police presence should only intimidate those doing something wrong, and not those that it is designed to reassure - and if anyone law-abiding finds Gardaí / Police intimidating then in my opinion the issue is with their perception and should be "got over" - they're there to ensure your safety.

Just my €0.02.

Even if our Garda were armed. On a regular friday night, when everyone is walking about the city drunk/high/been a nuisance/starting fights etc you better believe if a Garda let a shot of from a firearm there would be a lot of questions to be answered. And drunk and disordely Joe Public knows this.

Not that I agree with you on the Garda been intimidating. But if "intimidation" is what you want. Then getting a crack on the head from a batton for been unruly is a very real threat. ANd a lot more realistic then getting shot.

You can be certain that if it became law that AGS carried firearms a garda would only be able to use said firearm if he could justify his life was in danger- and even then he'd still probably get some stick over it.

Batons/pepperspray and tasers are the way to go. ANd conicidently the way to go if you want to create and intimidation factor.

sdanseo · 01-07-2012 4:26pm

Mike87 wrote: »

Even if our Garda were armed. On a regular friday night, when everyone is walking about the city drunk/high/been a nuisance/starting fights etc you better believe if a Garda let a shot of from a firearm there would be a lot of questions to be answered. And drunk and disordely Joe Public knows this.

Not that I agree with you on the Garda been intimidating. But if "intimidation" is what you want. Then getting a crack on the head from a batton for been unruly is a very real threat. ANd a lot more realistic then getting shot.

You can be certain that if it became law that AGS carried firearms a garda would only be able to use said firearm if he could justify his life was in danger- and even then he'd still probably get some stick over it.

Agreed and rightly so. I think however the time has come for Gardaí to be routinely armed - public order is pretty much bottom on the list of situations where a gun may be needed.

01-07-2012 5:19pm

sdeire wrote: »

Agreed and rightly so. I think however the time has come for Gardaí to be routinely armed - public order is pretty much bottom on the list of situations where a gun may be needed.

actually, public order incidents are nowhere near the list where a gun is needed.
you wont see too many armed gardai responding to drunken fights on the street with a gun hanging off them! thankfully they are are more sensible and better trained than that.

Mike87 · 01-07-2012 6:00pm

sdeire wrote: »

Agreed and rightly so. I think however the time has come for Gardaí to be routinely armed - public order is pretty much bottom on the list of situations where a gun may be needed.

I think you might have missed my point.

Im not a member of AGS so correct me if Im wrong. But I would imagine that the most frequent source of violence for the average Garda on the beat is responding to calls which includes drunk/drugged up assholes. In these cases, as you have said, having a gun is pretty much N/A.

As for criminal gangs/dissident terrorists etc we have special units for that.

So in my opinion its just too expensive to arm every single Garda on the chance that they may run into a pyscho on a killing spree some day.

But in a perfect world, yes, I think Gardai should be armed. Just not right now with the way the economy is.

In the mean time however, I would have no qualms, if a private training course was setup (at the persons expense) that if a Garda took and passed said course he would be able to purchase and keep his own gun. But I guess that would probably open up a whole other can of worms that we wont get into here

sdanseo · 01-07-2012 6:33pm

bubblypop wrote: »

actually, public order incidents are nowhere near the list where a gun is needed.
you wont see too many armed gardai responding to drunken fights on the street with a gun hanging off them! thankfully they are are more sensible and better trained than that.

Read the post properly please before you rebut something. What I was saying is exactly what you are - that Gardaí will almost never require a gun at a public order incident.

sdeire wrote: »

Agreed and rightly so. I think however the time has come for Gardaí to be routinely armed - public order is pretty much bottom on the list of situations where a gun may be needed.

mikom · 01-07-2012 6:39pm

sdeire wrote: »

Read the post properly please before you rebut something. What I was saying is exactly what you are - that Gardaí will almost never require a gun at a public order incident.

But wearing this seasons latest colours is a requirement it seems....
Fabulous dahling.

sdeire wrote: »

(As an aside, has the patrol jacket been removed entirely? I never see it any more in Dublin and I think it looked extremely well)

audidiesel · 01-07-2012 8:45pm

id much rather a taser than a gun. taser's non lethal and probably wont result in spending months and months under investigation while an incidents being investigated. i carry a gun and am happy to do so but would much prefer the less lethal taser option.

it wont happen though. garda management are so out of touch on the realities of the job at this stage that we will just muddle through with what we have.

also to answer an earlier question, unless its pretty cold or raining, its way to hot to wear a patrol jacket along with the stab vest.

shampon · 01-07-2012 9:03pm

war_child wrote: »

dont think so lad a powder keg is nothing without a fuse its just a threat ..the gun is that fuse which turns the normally dormant powder keg in to a hugely destructive force ....molotov cocktail ...ta da its magic

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rT63Nq2ZTOU

Seriously.

Eru · 01-07-2012 11:26pm

Cuchulainn1. wrote: »

No way should all Guards be armed this is a ludicrous suggestion.

Why? Are all Gardai not entitled to equal protection?

Cuchulainn1. wrote: »

Only guards who have proven their competence time and again and have been promoted to specialist units and higher ranks should have those responsibilities.

They have proven themselves, they have been given the damn badge. Your NOT, I repeat NOT promoted to specialist positions. You apply and you get, that simple. Promotions do not prove one iota that your capable of handling a firearm or even cool under pressure, all it proves is you passed an exam and an interview. Many Sergeant and higher spent little ot no time on the streets walking the beat or in a response car.

I have not been promoted, guess Im not capable of responding to calls. Best leave that to the recently promoted Sergeant in the racial unit who has spent the last 5 years in the JLO office.

Cuchulainn1. wrote: »

I'm sure any Guard on here would agree with that instead of arming every wannabe Will Smith from Ballygobackwards without any prior knowledge of their ability when under pressure and not just stopping a car for no tax as their main experience.

What an incredible insulting view of what your average Garda does. Will ****ing Smith? Stick to Hollywood cops pal because your knowledge of real police work is zero.

war_child wrote: »

@ duiske youd be very surprised what doesnt make it in to the papers ....

Very true, You know where it is guaranteed to be? On the courts.ie public access court outcome and judgement pages. Link to your case there mate.

Mike87 wrote: »

I dont see the point of all garda carrying firearms. It would be far too costly and for what? THis isnt the US we live in. How often do we see/hear of a regular garda been killed after bumping into a weapon carrying maniac.

Mike87 wrote: »

The amount of money we would spend on buying firearms/training would be extremely costly. Think about it for a second.

So Just how many Gardai should be sent to their deaths to save a few quid? As long as its cheaper to bury em than protect them keep going? Is your life more or less valuable euro for euro than mine? How much is spent on hard hats in building sites and would it be cheaper to just bury the odd builder who died from a falling brick? Your speaking about human beings who risk their lives to protect you and all they ask in return is the bloody equipment to do it.

Add to that, how much is spent on bullets for the defence forces? Haven't been at war in a while, maybe they should revert back to swords and pikes?

sdeire wrote: »

They have the sleeves of a Hi-Vis rolled up, or a belt worn externally with all the various pouches pointing different directions, are leaning against a wall etc.

Indeed, it also shows that the comment comes from someone who does NOT have to wear the high vis over body armour, a shirt and a tie in 18, 19 or 20 degrees afternoons. Rolled up sleeves? Were ****ing melting for Christ sake!

Whats the issue with external belts with the various items being held in the correct position to access them? This isnt Hollywood, my belt is not to look pretty or cool, its to carry the items I need to use. As part of that I need to access them fast and that means various positions and various angles.

The wall I don't get at all, what bloody difference does it make? I can honestly say I have never looked at any profession and being effected, insulted or annoyed at how they stood. Please when you join let me know what posts your get put on and if you stood to attention for the full ten hours.

Fair enough its your opinion but one I disagree completely with this time.

Now Im off to the builders section to pass comment on all the arses hanging out, filthy yellow vests thrown about and the amount of money spent on hard hats and boots.

sdanseo · 02-07-2012 12:28am

Eru wrote: »

Why? Are all Gardai not entitled to equal protection?
Indeed, it also shows that the comment comes from someone who does NOT have to wear the high vis over body armour, a shirt and a tie in 18, 19 or 20 degrees afternoons. Rolled up sleeves? Were ****ing melting for Christ sake!

Whats the issue with external belts with the various items being held in the correct position to access them? This isnt Hollywood, my belt is not to look pretty or cool, its to carry the items I need to use. As part of that I need to access them fast and that means various positions and various angles.

The wall I don't get at all, what bloody difference does it make? I can honestly say I have never looked at any profession and being effected, insulted or annoyed at how they stood. Please when you join let me know what posts your get put on and if you stood to attention for the full ten hours.

Fair enough its your opinion but one I disagree completely with this time.

Now Im off to the builders section to pass comment on all the arses hanging out, filthy yellow vests thrown about and the amount of money spent on hard hats and boots.

Sorry, I worded that very badly - what I was getting at is that if the Hi-Vis has to be rolled up (to the point that it my mind, it looks silly) - then management should be providing you guys with short-sleeved ones.

As regards the pouches and all of that - again, a complaint about the uniform, not the Gardaí. I understand that you gotta do what you gotta do to work as effectively as possible. The uniform, though, should adapt to that, not hinder it, and still look like it fits the person wearing it.

I'm aware the uniform is not regulated by the fashion police (pun intended), but it should still, from a public perspective, look the part. If it makes Gardaí look as i said above "slovenly and unprofessional" to me, then it very likely makes them look that way to everyone else. Which is not the impression that should be given by a police force. As regards leaning against the wall - yeah fair enough, I've been in jobs where it's banned outright as they're customer-facing roles and it's nigh on impossible to stand up straight for 8 hours on the trot. But it still wasn't allowed.

My post as a whole was meant to support you guys as professional Gardaí - I have nothing but support for the guys who do their job well, and I don't expect any more from you than any other workers just because you're Cops, because you're public sector sector workers, because "I pay your taxes" - scumbags who pull that line should be shot on the spot - and as I said (presuming I can afford Laser surgery beforehand) I'll be first in line when recruitment re-opens. Sorry if you perceived anything else from my above contribution.

FGR · 02-07-2012 1:36am

bubblypop wrote: »

actually, public order incidents are nowhere near the list where a gun is needed.
you wont see too many armed gardai responding to drunken fights on the street with a gun hanging off them! thankfully they are are more sensible and better trained than that.

The PSNI, Australian Police and many other police forces deal with similar public order issues on a frequent basis and they're all routinely armed.

This argument doesn't hold up imo.

I'd like to see a European standard being set in terms of policing as operational procedures are completely different throughout the continent. I for one would like to see the Tazer becoming standard issue with a general arming of the entire force shortly afterwards.

Mike87 · 02-07-2012 9:43am

So Just how many Gardai should be sent to their deaths to save a few quid? As long as its cheaper to bury em than protect them keep going? Is your life more or less valuable euro for euro than mine? How much is spent on hard hats in building sites and would it be cheaper to just bury the odd builder who died from a falling brick? Your speaking about human beings who risk their lives to protect you and all they ask in return is the bloody equipment to do it.

Well theres a bit of a difference there now isnt there. I can name a few builders that I knew personally who died on sites that could have been saved had they been wearing a hard hat. On the other hand I cant recall hearing/reading about any Garda (anywhere in the country) been murdered, due to been in the wrong place at the wrong time, whilst on the duty.

Add to that, how much is spent on bullets for the defence forces? Haven't been at war in a while, maybe they should revert back to swords and pikes?

Emmm.... I dont know about whereever you live, but around here, (and I see its on boards.ie too)- rarely a week goes by that I dont hear somebody attacking the army saying its a waste of money having them. And guess what one the biggest complaints is- the ammunition bill. So if people arent happy paying for the army's ammunition- then I doubt they're going to be happy about AGS suddenly having a nice new shiny ammunition bill too.

02-07-2012 12:16pm

sdeire wrote: »

Read the post properly please before you rebut something. What I was saying is exactly what you are - that Gardaí will almost never require a gun at a public order incident.

i read it and you are wrong.
gardai will never require a gun at a public order incident.

02-07-2012 12:19pm

FGR wrote: »

The PSNI, Australian Police and many other police forces deal with similar public order issues on a frequent basis and they're all routinely armed.

This argument doesn't hold up imo.

I'd like to see a European standard being set in terms of policing as operational procedures are completely different throughout the continent. I for one would like to see the Tazer becoming standard issue with a general arming of the entire force shortly afterwards.

those police are armed. therefore it stands to reason that they carry firearms to all their calls. including shoplifters, thefts, etc.

what i am saying is public order incidents do not REQUIRE firearms.

frag420 · 02-07-2012 12:33pm

I think we should start with appearance. Look at the uniform. Look at the cops themselves.

Firstly the uniform is not really conducive to chasing down people. It looks uncomnfortabel and having spoken to several members including three friends it is uncomfortable. A pair of bulky shoes, nice ironed slacks, wooly jumper, blue shirt, big jackets, utility belt, hat etc. A guy in crutches could outrun someone wearing that. Why not give them comfortable shoes that are condicive to running, combat style pants, fitted sweater, body warmer with extra pockets for utilities and a peaked hat. Similar to their colleagues oin the UK. The cops here look out dated and soft.

Secondly how many cops have I seen that are just unfit. There is no point having a nice uniform if you cant run. Older cops especially. Now I stress its not all of them but again I see some serious overweight gards plodding along the streets. Is there no minimum fitness test for them that must be maintained annually??

I think once this has been addressed then we can look at giving them guns but as its stands we need to start with baby steps eh!!

Zambia · 02-07-2012 2:28pm

FGR wrote: »

The PSNI, Australian Police and many other police forces deal with similar public order issues on a frequent basis and they're all routinely armed.

This argument doesn't hold up imo.

Most Australian cops remove the firearm at Public Order events.

See below empty/absent Holsters

At sporting events the cops are also not armed.

Witcher · 02-07-2012 3:31pm

I think the training is one of the biggest issues, how do you train 14,000 Gardai how to use a firearm..seems simple but;

What about those who joined because they weren't an armed force, don't want a gun and refuse to carry one?

What if Garda X was just incapable of using a firearm correctly i.e safely/accurately?

What about Gardai that are pistol shooters outside of their job..how do you change them into combat shooters? What if they have developed a flinch from shooting before? Do we have people qualified to correct that?

It's the finer points like these that are key not whether the DOJ can afford 14,000 Glock pistols that they would get a substantial discount on anyway.

war_child · 02-07-2012 5:08pm

@ Tampon ..oh sorry i mean shampon ...back off, eh!!!!! How about no ...see we can both resort to childish slagging ...if ya dont like what i have to say then dont read it ...if you cant conduct yourself in an Adult manner then you shouldnt be allowed play with big boy toys ...and if you cant be involved in a civilised debate without resorting to childish behaviour dont stepup ...

Now back to your mothers basement with you .....

Eru · 02-07-2012 6:01pm

Mike87 wrote: »

Emmm.... I dont know about whereever you live, but around here, (and I see its on boards.ie too)- rarely a week goes by that I dont hear somebody attacking the army saying its a waste of money having them. And guess what one the biggest complaints is- the ammunition bill. So if people arent happy paying for the army's ammunition- then I doubt they're going to be happy about AGS suddenly having a nice new shiny ammunition bill too.

What the begrudging people around your area think does not concern me. I will never require the dole, do I begrudge paying tax for it?

Mike87 wrote: »

Well theres a bit of a difference there now isnt there. I can name a few builders that I knew personally who died on sites that could have been saved had they been wearing a hard hat. On the other hand I cant recall hearing/reading about any Garda (anywhere in the country) been murdered, due to been in the wrong place at the wrong time, whilst on the duty.

Can you name a few Gardai who were killed for being in the right place at the right time then? I'm sorry you dont read much but your ignorance on a subject is hardly a good reason to allow Gardai be killed. Perhaps these cases should be clear enough for you, remembering that they are not the only ones.

ESF memorial section wrote:

Sergeant Patrick Joseph Acquinas Morrissey, (14545),
Collon, Co. Louth.

Sergeant Patrick Joseph Acquinas Morrissey was shot dead in pursuit of two armed men who had made an abortive raid on a post office at Collon, Co. Louth on 27.06.1985

ESF memorial section wrote:

Garda Patrick Gerald Reynolds, (21281),
Tallaght.

Garda Reynolds was in a party surrounding premises suspected as a hiding place for stolen property when he was shot dead.

ESF memorial section wrote:

Garda James Quaid, (13497),
Wexford Town.

Shot dead at Ballyconnick, Co. Wexford, attempting to arrest a wanted man on 13.10.1980.

ESF memorial section wrote:

Garda Henry Gerrard Byrne, (18300),
Castlerea, Co. Roscommon.

Garda John Francis Morley and Garda Henry Gerard Byrne were shot and fatally injured at Aghaderry, Co. Roscommon, in pursuit of armed bank robbers on 07.07.1980

Had any of them especially Sergeant Morrisey and Garda Reynolds been armed they could have protected themselves instead of being slaughtered where they stood. I wonder if Sergeant Morrisey as the barrel was put to his head accepted his life wasnt worth the price of the bullet used to kill him.

Zambia wrote: »

Most Australian cops remove the firearm at Public Order events.

See below empty/absent Holsters

At sporting events the cops are also not armed.

I might be going blind but the cop nearest the photo taker appears to have something in his holster.

also at sporting events I believe its only the public order / riot units that are not armed because they are for in close large crowds which a firearm would not suit for obvious reasons.

sd,
Fair enough.

Mike87 · 02-07-2012 7:26pm

What the begrudging people around your area think does not concern me. I will never require the dole, do I begrudge paying tax for it?

It doesnt matter what you think of the majority of peoples attitudes. But let me assure you, if the majority of the country support armed Gardai then its more likely to happen then if the vast majority are against it. So it would suit you better to start caring about what all these "begrudgers" think and try to work with them and not just accuse them of been ignorant. Or is that too much too ask?

Can you name a few Gardai who were killed for being in the right place at the right time then? I'm sorry you dont read much but your ignorance on a subject is hardly a good reason to allow Gardai be killed. Perhaps these cases should be clear enough for you, remembering that they are not the only ones.

Its funny, most of those cases you cited are nearly 30 years old when the IRA were out robbing banks left right and center. But regardless, it tells us something... 30 years ago Gardai were getting killed a dime a dozen. Now they arent. Or perhaps you just deliberatly left out all the recent examples of Gardai killed on duty during say... the last 8 years?

Gardai carrying Guns

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