Daughter forced to believe in God

NewCorkLad · 05-09-2014 3:06pm

Cymini Sectores wrote: »

She can receive her education in another school.

And if she doesnt like the new school after a week?

Cabaal · 05-09-2014 3:09pm

Cymini Sectores wrote: »

She can receive her education in another school.

So let me get this straight,
The OP should pull their child out of the school without making any attempt to talk to the school and they should just drag their child to another school that could potentially be very awkward to get to.

What happens if there is a different issue at some point in the future in the other school, they should just change school again?.
:rolleyes:

I have an alternative solution,

Instead the OP could just act like an adult and talk to the school (like they likely will) instead of simply running away from any sort of difficulty.

Seriously silly suggestion to simply move school without any attempts to act like a adult and try resolve what is a very simply issue, its not a big deal for a school to provide an opt out option...infact they have to.

Tombo2001 · 05-09-2014 3:10pm

Cymini Sectores wrote: »

She can receive her education in another school.

I think that is the whole point here.

Frequently, there is no other school.

Or if there is one, its much further away, or has inferior facilities or some other issue.

I was amazed, taken back, astounded, by how difficult it was to get my kids into a primary school. We had their names down for three or four schools from very early on, and it was only at the very last minute that we knew if we'd have a place.

The last thing I was going to do was say "hang on here, not sure about your policy on this this and this", before we had been offerred a place.

By all means, have the conversation afterwards.

I was delighted just to get a place.

That is the reality of schools in Dublin anyway.

Gerry T · 05-09-2014 3:11pm

Cymini Sectores wrote: »

She can receive her education in another school.

Fix the symptom not the illness !!!

The problem, as outlined by the OP, is the teacher and principal. Thats what needs fixing.
Why couldn't the teacher let it slide and give a note home to the parents asking to discuss their child's religious beliefs. Problem solved.

So don't loose sight of what's wrong Teacher AND Principal NOT Child.

The school my kids go to have children that don't participate in RE, they just goto another class while RE is on, have done from the start so its no problem for kids.

dr strangelove · 05-09-2014 3:14pm

realdanbreen wrote: »

She's 7 ! You think she's going to weigh up her options, look at the pro's & cons, come to an informed decision?

Sure - but i bet she either loves or hates the new school, or misses her friends at her old school - can't hurt to at least include her in your decision making process

Cymini Sectores · 05-09-2014 3:16pm

NewCorkLad wrote: »

And if she doesnt like the new school after a week?

She could always be cajoled to like it.

Tombo2001 · 05-09-2014 3:17pm

Just to remind people:

Religious Denominated Primary Schools have a hierarchy of who they will admit:

Whether it be CoI or Catholic (dont know about the muslim one).

It is:
(i) Children from the local parish of that denomination
(ii) Children from outside the local parish, of that denomination
(iii) Children from the local parish not of that denomination
(iv) Children from outside the local parish, not of that denomination.

What this means is that if you live next door to a primary school in say Ballyfermot, and your child is not baptised, then a Catholic/ CofI child living in Kildare or Meath or Wicklow would be offerred a place in the school next door to you, before your child would be offerred a place.

Messed up? Absolutely.
Campaign to change it? Go for it.*
But in the meantime.....what do you do for your kid. Do you take the hit on the baptism so he/she can go to the school next door; or do you go the end of a 500 long queue for an Educate Together 6 miles away.

*Bear in mind that most people do not give this subject a second's thought until they actually start applying to schools for their child, by which time they have an immediate need.

Cabaal · 05-09-2014 3:21pm

Tombo2001 wrote: »

Just to remind people:

Religious Denominated Primary Schools have a hierarchy of who they will admit:

Whether it be CoI or Catholic (dont know about the muslim one).

It is:
(i) Children from the local parish of that denomination
(ii) Children from outside the local parish, of that denomination
(iii) Children from the local parish not of that denomination
(iv) Children from outside the local parish, not of that denomination.

What this means is that if you live next door to a primary school in say Ballyfermot, and your child is not baptised, then a Catholic/ CofI child living in Kildare or Meath or Wicklow would be offerred a place in the school next door to you, before your child would be offerred a place.

Messed up? Absolutely.
Campaign to change it? Go for it.
But in the meantime.....what do you do for your kid. Do you take the hit on the baptism so he/she can go to the school next door; or do you go the end of 500 long queue for an Educate Together 6 miles away.

You do what you want to, not everyone can travel 10, 20, 30m 40, 50 miles to the nearest none catholic ethos school.

If that means having a cert to the school and then opting the child out of religion once they get in that thats a persons decision to do so, I don't personally think its a good idea as it means nothing will change but its a viable option.

We have a situation in our schools where a school can get rid of students OR teachers if they are not in-line with the ethos (student for being pregnant or a teacher for being gay), they are exempt from legislation that numerous other employers must follow when it comes to equality.

I would note however that some schools are far more strict in using this hierarchy then others, just like some schools are more open to gay teachers etc. Not all schools are created equally....mileage can vary depending on where you are in the country.

Cabaal · 05-09-2014 3:24pm

Cymini Sectores wrote: »

She could always be cajoled to like it.

and yet the same can't be done with the existing school?
:rolleyes:

letsseehere14 · 05-09-2014 3:31pm

Just to point out again, as some people seem happy to take the OP's post as absolute fact.
He has not spoken to the teacher or principal. He is taking what he was told by his 7 year old daughter, who has just started a new school, knowing noone, away from the friends she has previously made in her old school, as absolute fact without talking to the adults involved I.e. the teacher and principal. You seriously couldn't make it up!!

Cymini Sectores · 05-09-2014 3:34pm

Cabaal wrote: »

and yet the same can't be done with the existing school?
:rolleyes:

Sure it could, but apparently OP has an issue with religion and it's his child we are talking about here.

You talk of asking OP to talk to the school... it's a Catholic school and I presume the attendees are expected to believe in its tenets.

realdanbreen · 05-09-2014 3:41pm

Cymini Sectores wrote: »

Sure it could, but apparently OP has an issue with religion and it's his child we are talking about here.

You talk of asking OP to talk to the school... it's a Catholic school and I presume the attendees are expected to believe in its tenets.

Seems like the OP is airing his grieveances through his 7 year old.

Cabaal · 05-09-2014 3:51pm

Cymini Sectores wrote: »

You talk of asking OP to talk to the school... it's a Catholic school and I presume the attendees are expected to believe in its tenets.

Students have no such requirement to partake in religious indoctrination in state funded schools, they can under our constitution opt out

Delirium · 05-09-2014 3:52pm

realdanbreen wrote: »

Seems like the OP is airing his grieveances through his 7 year old.

have a read of the starting post.

bajer101 wrote: »

My seven year old daughter moved to a Catholic school from an Educate Together school for logistical reasons. I'm a single Dad and am an atheist. I have always told my daughter that she can believe whatever she wants but that it would be better to wait until she is older to make her mind up as it is a very complicated subject.

I knew that moving her to a Catholic school would involve some religious teaching, but I thought that in this day and age it would be minimal. The trouble started on the first day when the class were colouring in a picture of Jesus and my daughter announced that she didn't believe in God. Her teacher told her that if said that again that she would be sent back to her old school! The other kids also seemed to gang up on her a bit over this. Over the next few days the subject came up again and she was sent to the principal's office and the principal told her that she had to believe in God!

My daughter is very upset over this and has feigned sickness to avoid going to school and last night she even disabled the alarm on my phone so that I wouldn't wake up in time (her plan worked!).

I am not sure what to do about this. The way I see it I have a few options.
1. Take her out of the school straight away as it is obviously very religiously oriented and there will be no good outcome if she is left there.
2. Get my daughter to play along and go with the flow.
3. Talk to the teacher and principal and try to come up with a reasonable solution.
4. Go all out nuclear and kick up a huge fuss and demand that my daughter be allowed opt out of all religious activity.

Any thoughts or advice would be appreciated.

Norma_Desmond · 05-09-2014 4:02pm

96/97% of schools in Ireland are Christian schools.
That leaves a very small percentage variety for those of non-Christian faith/no religion.
People are forced to put their children into Catholic schools because of lack of choice, not because they want to.

Tombo2001 · 05-09-2014 4:14pm

Cabaal wrote: »

You do what you want to, not everyone can travel 10, 20, 30m 40, 50 miles to the nearest none catholic ethos school.

If that means having a cert to the school and then opting the child out of religion once they get in that thats a persons decision to do so, I don't personally think its a good idea as it means nothing will change but its a viable option.

We have a situation in our schools where a school can get rid of students OR teachers if they are not in-line with the ethos (student for being pregnant or a teacher for being gay), they are exempt from legislation that numerous other employers must follow when it comes to equality.

I would note however that some schools are far more strict in using this hierarchy then others, just like some schools are more open to gay teachers etc. Not all schools are created equally....mileage can vary depending on where you are in the country.

Has this debate turned 180 degrees.

My point all along is that it is sometimes better to get your child baptised than, to reference your example, travel 40 miles a day to a non-denominational school.

Cabaal · 05-09-2014 4:18pm

Tombo2001 wrote: »

My point all along is that it is sometimes better to get your child baptised than, to reference your example, travel 40 miles a day to a non-denominational school.

While I don't agree with it, if somebody wants to do that then they can...its their personal choice. Also I'd like to point out to you that there are effectively no non-denominational schools in Ireland.

In relation to people that choose to baptise their kids for school entry only, in doing so they must accept that they are only kicking the can down the road and that will result in the same difficult situation for many many others,....it might even be the same for their children when they get older and they have children.

Why make a choice that makes your own child's life harder in the long run? Also its a very odd thing to be ok with, taking part in a ceremony where you agree that you 1. believe in a god, 2. agree to raise your children in-line with the catholic church rules if you do not believe in a god. Its not a good start to your childrens life when you lie like this to yourself, your family, your friends and more importantly your child.

Overall the more people that make a stand the more chance this situation is forced into changing, thats a good thing for everyone of every other faith or non-faith when it comes to approx 97% of our state funded schools.

You have to remember that while a school can prioritise Catholics over atheists, they can just as easily discriminate against Jews, Muslims, Protestants etc

Tombo2001 · 05-09-2014 4:41pm

Cabaal wrote: »

While I don't agree with it, if somebody wants to do that then they can...its their personal choice. Also I'd like to point out to you that there are effectively no non-denominational schools in Ireland.

In relation to people that choose to baptise their kids for school entry only, in doing so they must accept that they are only kicking the can down the road and that will result in the same difficult situation for many many others,....it might even be the same for their children when they get older and they have children.

Why make a choice that makes your own child's life harder in the long run? Also its a very odd thing to be ok with, taking part in a ceremony where you agree that you 1. believe in a god, 2. agree to raise your children in-line with the catholic church rules if you do not believe in a god. Its not a good start to your childrens life when you lie like this to yourself, your family, your friends and more importantly your child.

Overall the more people that make a stand the more chance this situation is forced into changing, thats a good thing for everyone of every other faith or non-faith when it comes to approx 97% of our state funded schools.

You have to remember that while a school can prioritise Catholics over atheists, they can just as easily discriminate against Jews, Muslims, Protestants etc

You are coming at it from an idealistic point of view. I am coming at it from a practical point of view.

Nonetheless I agree with your point about kicking the can down the road. At some point this may become a problem for this kid, as in the case of the OP.

Parents should be aware of this, and weigh up this difficulty against the difficulty involved in finding a non-denominational school that can offer an education of equal quality, and involves the same commute.

On your final point, and a CoI school or Muslim or Jewish school can and do equally prioritise children of their religions.

Cabaal · 05-09-2014 4:51pm

Tombo2001 wrote: »

On your final point, and a CoI school or Muslim or Jewish school can and do equally prioritise children of their religions.

No doubt they do,
At the end of the day I have no problem with any school doing so, as long as they do not receive state funds, teachers are not paid by the tax payer etc.

Once they start receiving state funds and the teachers are paid by the Irish state then no specific religious faith should be pushed above another, ideally they should be non-denominational.....however since that hasn't even yet happened I'd settle for multi-denominational like educate together (not ideal but it'll do).

If for example if a private school wants only Catholics and they get no state funding they can happily work away in doing that as far as I'm concerned.

RustyNut · 05-09-2014 4:51pm

Tombo2001 wrote: »

Just to remind people:

Religious Denominated Primary Schools have a hierarchy of who they will admit:

Whether it be CoI or Catholic (dont know about the muslim one).

It is:
(i) Children from the local parish of that denomination
(ii) Children from outside the local parish, of that denomination
(iii) Children from the local parish not of that denomination
(iv) Children from outside the local parish, not of that denomination.

What this means is that if you live next door to a primary school in say Ballyfermot, and your child is not baptised, then a Catholic/ CofI child living in Kildare or Meath or Wicklow would be offerred a place in the school next door to you, before your child would be offerred a place.

Messed up? Absolutely.
Campaign to change it? Go for it.*
But in the meantime.....what do you do for your kid. Do you take the hit on the baptism so he/she can go to the school next door; or do you go the end of a 500 long queue for an Educate Together 6 miles away.

*Bear in mind that most people do not give this subject a second's thought until they actually start applying to schools for their child, by which time they have an immediate need.

As someone who went the 6 mile away educate together route, I was a lot happier to do the school run and know that mine were getting a rounded education rather than have them taught something that could not possibly be true.

Its just my opinion but i think that if you teach kids to believe in things that are blatantly untrue such as jesus feeding thousands with a couple of fresh cod and a batch loaf or mohammed riding off to heaven on a winged donkey then you are leaving them open to be convinced that anything might be true no matter how unlikely leaving them open to be manipulated later in life.

bajer101 · 06-09-2014 1:17am

Hi, OP here again. Thanks for all the responses and opinions and apologies for the delay in responding. I had a procedure in hospital today and haven't been in a position to reply. I spoke to my daughter further about what happened and I am sure that her teacher did tell her she would be sent back to her previous school if she mentioned that she did not believe in God again. I now think that the Principal tried to deal with this a bit more reasonably. I got some more info from my daughter. I hadn't previously pumped her for exact details as I find that it's best to let the information flow during casual chats. What seems to have happened is that two older students acting as messengers, arrived in her class and said that my daughter had to go to the Principal's office for a "message". My daughter was a bit vague about the conversation that took place. She said she didn't really understand it all. She said she was asked if she wanted to make her Communion and she said yes. I think that's where the having to believe in God came into it.

I've met the principal prior to my daughter's enrollment and she seems like a very nice person. My daughter's discomfort doesn't seem to be based on the Principal's conversation, but more so from her teacher's attitude, who obviously caused her to be called to the Principal's office, and by the other kids in her class who seem to think that she is a freak for not believing in God. The other kids in her class are saying things to her about not believing in God.

I am not trying to make a huge stance about demanding that she can opt out. I am a single Dad and already face huge discrimination about that without having to deal with this nonsense. I don't want to become a poster boy for atheist rights - I just didn't expect to have to deal with this rubbish. I was educated by Jesuits over thirty years ago and didn't have to deal with this.

Some people have posted about it not being appropriate to ask a seven year old about what she wanted, but I disagree. Of course I had to ask her what she thinks. This is the first time that the subject has ever been seriously raised. As far as I was concerned, she was way too young to have any serious opinion on the subject - she can make her own mind up later. She knows that some people believe in god, and in the past she has mentioned believing in Heaven and she told the Principal that she wants to make her communion. But the issue seems to have been forced now, so I asked her what she thinks. I asked her if she wants to make her Communion and she said - yes. I explained transubstantiation and she thought for a few seconds and said that's stupid and that she doesn't want to make her Communion. I asked her if she would be happy if I told the school that she wouldn't have to learn about religion and god and she said, yes.

I know that this is not the ideal scenario and lots of people from both sides of the camp will come out and point out the flaws in my approach. But I think it is the best I can do at the moment. She is free to believe whatever she wants and she won't be indoctrinated by anyone. I pay my taxes and more than cover the cost of her education with those taxes. I am entitled to have her educated in a school that is funded by those taxes. If the school doesn't like it, they can become private and only accept students who pay them privately.

The big problem I have, and the issue which I always foresaw is that she will be isolated. It's hard enough for her starting a new school and being different without singled out as the kid who doesn't believe in God - and this has already happened. When it boils down to it, this was the decision I had to make. Do I ask her to lie and pretend so that she is accepted, or do I ask her to stand up for what she believes and hope that the system will support her. It's a terrible position to be put in. She has had enough problems in her life so far without this. I think the best thing to do is the get the school to allow her to opt out as that is what she wants, and then stay right on top of it to make sure that there is no bullying.

BTW - if anyone comments about me forcing my atheist opinions on her or talks about me sending her to a Catholic school and that I have to accept what they tell my child - please don't bother. Life is tough enough without having to read that.

Calhoun · 06-09-2014 1:42am

Ill put it as simple as this OP, keep going the way your going and look to work with the principal because at the end of the day this is one of the battles you have to be very careful around.

My brother is 10 and last year he was in a class with a teacher who is notoriously unfair to male students, so much so that allot of the parents have gone to the principal and beyond in an attempt to have her removed. The only solution is that they boys are moving on a year.

All i am saying is be very careful because if a teacher was crazy enough to threaten a seven year old then who knows where this will go.

bajer101 · 06-09-2014 1:52am

I understand that I have to be careful, but I have to do the right thing for her. She made my mind up when she said that if she pretended to believe in God that she would be lying. How could I proceed otherwise after she said that? I know it's opening a can of worms. The easy part is exercising her constitutional rights. The tough part is dealing with the fallout and the possible bullying. I just have to deal with that and stay right on top of it and make sure that the school will be aware of their obligations. It's not a decision I am taking lightly and I am actually more focused on discussing with the school their policy on bullying than their policy on religion.

Calhoun · 06-09-2014 2:00am

bajer101 wrote: »

I understand that I have to be careful, but I have to do the right thing for her. She made my mind up when she said that if she pretended to believe in God that she would be lying. How could I proceed otherwise after she said that? I know it's opening a can of worms. The easy part is exercising her constitutional rights. The tough part is dealing with the fallout and the possible bullying. I just have to deal with that and stay right on top of it and make sure that the school will be aware of their obligations. It's not a decision I am taking lightly and I am actually more focused on discussing with the school their policy on bullying than their policy on religion.

That's fine doing the right thing by her but she may have to learn that there is intolerance in this world for certain beliefs very early on.

The tough part will be dealing with possible bullying but you wont be dealing with it she will so keep that in mind.

Honestly i think what your doing is admirable and sticking up for her is great, i am not trying to scare you our anything just make sure your well prepare to arm her to deal with this.

I am hopeful because of your previous conversation with the principal this will work out ok ect and you wont have any issues. Don't go in with accusation of bullying right off the bat though as it may galvanize the situation.

ash23 · 06-09-2014 2:03am

Op it's pointless worrying about what might be until it happens for sure.
Kids are fairly accepting at that age. My child goes to a medium sized country Catholic school and the mix of kids in her class is pretty astounding.
Kids are curious and not always tactful when asking questions or making statements. I've heard a few humdingers down the years via my daughter talking about her classmates.
From Hinduism to Muslims, adoption, absent parents and various races and cultures, some questions asked would make your jaw drop.

Kids will always query what is different and it doesn't mean your daughter is destined for a life of solitude. She was already a curiosity as she was new and then to be an atheist on top of it will make her curiosity of the week. And yes at some point when they find out she lives just with her dad she will be curiouser and curiouser. Until the next "what the????" comes along.

I've had it with my own and imo the best thing to do is just teach your daughter the best way to react. Which is nonchalant and non reactive.
When my kid got a "that's sooooo weird" when they found she'd never met her dad, she just shrugged and said it's just how it is. Interest quickly went elsewhere when they realised she wasn't all that bothered.

And yes, it did get to her a bit. She was a little low when she got home. But it was forgotten in a day or two.

Just tell the school what is what and teach your daughter how to answer questions or quips her classmates might put to her.
They'll soon just accept it as par for the course I would think and she'll settle in hopefully.

bajer101 · 06-09-2014 2:13am

Thanks guys - that's some great advice and it's very much appreciated. I'm sure we'll be able to find a a reasonable solution. I wouldn't even go as far as to describe her as an atheist - she's seven! She still believes in Santa! No child of that age has any firm beliefs. My main point in starting this thread was that I didn't like that she was being told that she HAD to believe in God and that her teacher threatened her for for voicing a dissenting opinion. I reckon that I'll be able to thrash this out with the Principal, but I suspect that her teacher might be a bit more narrow minded. It's early days yet so we'll see.

Hotblack Desiato · 06-09-2014 2:18am

Hang in there OP, what might look like catholic devotion is 99% bull****, almost nobody actually believes that crap, the thing I hate about the Irish people is this easy acceptance of deception

without a whimper of protest we swapped British oppression for Roman oppression and pretended we liked it. We are a teenage nation with little idea of our real identity.

Brian Shanahan · 06-09-2014 7:00pm

NewCorkLad wrote: »

Children have been known to exaggerate situations, go and talk to them without talk of bullying and threatening and come to a solution

So have teachers, so it may be a good idea to take their words with a grain of salt. Ask around to see if the particular teacher is a holy-roller first.

Brian Shanahan · 06-09-2014 7:39pm

TheQuietFella wrote: »

You're an atheist sending their child to a catholic school & you have an issue with a staff member defending their sacred beliefs? Get a f**king grip.
You shouldn't have sent her there in the first place!

You forget that the state forces every school to have a religious ethos, and forces them into "faith formation" activities (i.e. religious indoctrination). Over 96% of Irish state-funded primary school are rcc ethos, a proportion far in excess off the c.20% of the country that are catholic, assuming the current government position re religion in education is sensible (it ****ing well is not).

So in many cases an arreligious or irreligious parent has no other choice but grin and bear it when deciding how to get the best education for their child and send them to a school where the child will be force fed religious bs for the next eight years (and probably the next six after that).

Gerry T · 08-09-2014 1:47pm

My kids primary had protestant, catholic and non-faith kids. All the kids got on great together, birthday parties, play-dates, etc... So I'm sure you kid will enjoy her days in school. Once the questions from her class mates are answered they will move on and accept her position.
You sound like your dealing well with this situation and best of luck with it.

Daughter forced to believe in God

Comments