Daughter forced to believe in God

Gerry T · 04-09-2014 11:22pm

TheQuietFella wrote: »

To me it doesn't matter who pays the salary.
This person defended their faith regardless of the offender & this guy
wants her punished for it? What is this country coming to?

Not been funny but I don't follow you

who is:
this person
offender
this guy
her

RustyNut · 04-09-2014 11:25pm

TheQuietFella wrote: »

To me it doesn't matter who pays the salary.
This person defended their faith regardless of the offender & this guy
wants her punished for it? What is this country coming to?

It seems to me that the child is getting punished for not sharing the faith.

5uspect · 04-09-2014 11:27pm

TheQuietFella wrote: »

To me it doesn't matter who pays the salary.
This person defended their faith regardless of the offender & this guy
wants her punished for it? What is this country coming to?

Ah, so indoctrination of children is defending the faith? How dare people not believe in god. I'm offended.

TheQuietFella · 04-09-2014 11:28pm

Gerry T wrote: »

Not been funny but I don't follow you

who is:
this person (Teacher)
offender (Child)
this guy (Parent)
her (Teacher)

Apologies Gerry! I'm losing the plot a little.
I'm sure it was meant as a gentle chastisement of the child.
They were not put against the wall to be stoned.

letsseehere14 · 04-09-2014 11:33pm

I don't fully believe this OP. It just doesnt fit. Adults acting in such a way, a young girl in primary school whos actions can only be described as so unchildlike. If it is true, the solution of talking to the teacher, then the principal is the obvious and only option. But it had been brought here, with what I would describe as an unbelievable story.
Adults, especially teachers these days are trained in how to communicate with children. I cannot for the life of me, knowing teachers in catholic and non catholic schools, see this situation, as described ever happening. Leaving them selves so obviously open of challenge, legally or otherwise.
I also know from experience that children do not usually open up about bullying from fellow students so readily and so quickly. If students were "ganging up" on her, the teacher or principal have not reacted, to me that is a bigger issue than what is being described here.

Aineoil · 04-09-2014 11:38pm

Interesting thread.

The bottom line is that if you want your child to attend a school with whatever religious persuasion and you don't really believe in that persuasion there are going to be consequences.

Talking to the class teacher or principal in a Catholic school about not believing in god maybe not the best way forward but then again you never know.....

Gerry T · 04-09-2014 11:39pm

TheQuietFella wrote: »

Apologies Gerry! I'm losing the plot a little.
I'm sure it was meant as a gentle chastisement of the child.
They were not put against the wall to be stoned.

Thanks, now I get it

I could understand a priest having that attitude, but a teacher and principal is different. I would have thought a teacher would want children to see there are two sides to everything and neither might be right or wrong. Just different perspectives and ways of thinking. But then religion and education don't really get on that well.
A gentle chastisement could be ignored, but the OP did say his child didn't want to goto school, so for the child its not such a small thing

sheesh · 05-09-2014 12:11am

TheQuietFella wrote: »

To me it doesn't matter who pays the salary.
This person defended their faith regardless of the offender & this guy
wants her punished for it? What is this country coming to?

come on they defended it against a small child.

it is rather an awkward situation that the op is in he needs to tell the school that he is a lapsed catholic and has never given his daughter any religious instruction ask that she be exempted from it, that puts the ball in their court

letsseehere14 · 05-09-2014 12:25am

I'm just trying to add perspective and think out of the box here. Remember he has not spoken to the school and if I have missed it, they have not contacted him.
So this entire story is being based off what a seven year old girl, who has just started a new school, knowing noone there, has told her father. No input here from the schools side. Perhaps she isnt settling in and is looking for excuses not to go or to be swapped back to her old school. Perhaps the teachers "threat" to send her back is really a request by her to ger father to go back.
It is rare a child gets sent to the principal. certainly rare for it to happen in the first two weeks of school returning. That kind of action is usually reserved for much more serious situations such as violence. , stealing, bullying and so in and I would imagine usually is accompanied with the parent being contacted.

uck51js9zml2yt · 05-09-2014 12:42am

It shouldn't be an issue opting out of once the school know your position. If it wasn't made clear perhaps they assumed you were rc and your daughter was trying it on with them.
Threatening a child is wrong and should however be addressed.
II'm non denominational Christian and have my son starting in the local r c school next year.
Some of my family had their kids in convents and they just studied during religious classes.

Hotblack Desiato · 05-09-2014 12:50am

Aineoil wrote: »

Interesting thread.

The bottom line is that if you want your child to attend a school with whatever religious persuasion and you don't really believe in that persuasion there are going to be consequences.

Talking to the class teacher or principal in a Catholic school about not believing in god maybe not the best way forward but then again you never know.....

The bottom line is that parents want their child to attend A school. They are legally obliged to ensure their children are educated, or else they can be sent to jail.

The local school comes with a load of religious guff added in, like 96% of primary schools in Ireland. But I suppose it's the parents' fault for not living in an area where they can apply at conception to get their child into one of the 4% schools??

Are you suggesting that there could be repercussions on the child's education because of the (lack of) religion of their parent - that is in no way acceptable.

AshOB · 05-09-2014 7:44am

Apologies if this has already been posted but I don't have time to read through the whole thread. OP should find useful information at teach don't preach.ie

Tombo2001 · 05-09-2014 10:48am

AshOB wrote: »

Apologies if this has already been posted but I don't have time to read through the whole thread. OP should find useful information at teach don't preach.ie

Hasnt already been posted and it is useful.

Tombo2001 · 05-09-2014 10:51am

The way I see it is, which do you place higher: your principals or your children.

I know of a few people who put their foot down and said, we are not baptising the kids just to get them into the local school, and it then causes all sorts of headaches for both them and the children.

Cabaal · 05-09-2014 11:07am

Tombo2001 wrote: »

The way I see it is, which do you place higher: your principals or your children.

I know of a few people who put their foot down and said, we are not baptising the kids just to get them into the local school, and it then causes all sorts of headaches for both them and the children.

Yet the same people who claim "Oh its best for the child education wise to get them into the school" would have a massive issue making their child a Muslim if it would benefit them (the child),

Keep in mind that they would have to partake in Muslim practices in school and even outside of school time as part of this so it won't be just in name,

This isn't about principals, this is about the child. Allowing any child to be indoctrinated into any faith does them a disservice,.

Nobody wouldn't think it ok for a Jewish family to indoctrinated their child into the catholic faith just for a school place (cause you know you want the best for your child), so why would anyone think its ok for a atheist?

swampgas · 05-09-2014 11:33am

Tombo2001 wrote: »

The way I see it is, which do you place higher: your principals or your children.

I know of a few people who put their foot down and said, we are not baptising the kids just to get them into the local school, and it then causes all sorts of headaches for both them and the children.

Abandoning your principles is not something to be done trivially. The OP is trying to do the the best thing for their child by securing for them the best possible education - one free of (in their view and mine) harmful religious indoctrination.

Fighting to defend their principles (and constitutional entitlements) to benefit their children is to be admired, not criticized.

Rega · 05-09-2014 11:42am

Hey OP, I'm a primary school teacher in a small country school. Had lots of kids of different faiths in my class over the years.

Just go in and say to the teacher that you don't want your child participating in the RE programme. It's not a big deal. The teacher will give her work to do during RE time or allow her read a library book.

Hope it works out well for you and your daughter and she enjoys her new school.

Tombo2001 · 05-09-2014 12:32pm

swampgas wrote: »

Abandoning your principles is not something to be done trivially. The OP is trying to do the the best thing for their child by securing for them the best possible education - one free of (in their view and mine) harmful religious indoctrination.

Fighting to defend their principles (and constitutional entitlements) to benefit their children is to be admired, not criticized.

Absolutely, I completely agree with you.

However I am not sure why you are arguing against a point that I never made.

My criticism is where people place their principals above the welfare of their children, and where their children are disadvantaged as a result. I made this point very clearly.

Tombo2001 · 05-09-2014 12:33pm

Cabaal wrote: »

Yet the same people who claim "Oh its best for the child education wise to get them into the school" would have a massive issue making their child a Muslim if it would benefit them (the child),

Keep in mind that they would have to partake in Muslim practices in school and even outside of school time as part of this so it won't be just in name,

This isn't about principals, this is about the child. Allowing any child to be indoctrinated into any faith does them a disservice,.

Nobody wouldn't think it ok for a Jewish family to indoctrinated their child into the catholic faith just for a school place (cause you know you want the best for your child), so why would anyone think its ok for a atheist?

Thats completely hypothetical, and the nub of the issue here is people trying to deal with the realities of the here and now in Ireland.

Cabaal · 05-09-2014 12:47pm

Tombo2001 wrote: »

Thats completely hypothetical, and the nub of the issue here is people trying to deal with the realities of the here and now in Ireland.

So the here in now in Ireland is what exactly?, its ok for an atheist to put their childs best interests to the side and indoctrinate them into a religion for the best "education"?

Your argument seem to be that its fine in a situation where the child might be disadvantaged otherwise, is this your thinking?,

eviltwin · 05-09-2014 1:11pm

Tombo2001 wrote: »

My criticism is where people place their principals above the welfare of their children, and where their children are disadvantaged as a result. I made this point very clearly.

If kids are disadvantaged for not being Catholic surely we should be making an equal playing field for all children rather than expecting people to baptise their kids under duress.

skydish79 · 05-09-2014 1:12pm

I'd double check that the teacher and principal actually said that before you go in guns blazing

TheQuietFella · 05-09-2014 2:06pm

sheesh wrote: »

come on they defended it against a small child.

it is rather an awkward situation that the op is in he needs to tell the school that he is a lapsed catholic and has never given his daughter any religious instruction ask that she be exempted from it, that puts the ball in their court

Take the child out of the school ffs!
The parent is sending the child to a school & he wants to call the shots!!!
Doesn't or shouldn't work this way!

swampgas · 05-09-2014 2:08pm

Tombo2001 wrote: »

Absolutely, I completely agree with you.

However I am not sure why you are arguing against a point that I never made.

My criticism is where people place their principals above the welfare of their children, and where their children are disadvantaged as a result. I made this point very clearly.

Fair enough, I see what you're trying to say. However in this specific case I think it's clear that the child will benefit from being accommodated as a non-Catholic, and this will be better for the child than trying to get the child to convert to Catholicism, or getting the child to play along by pretending to be Catholic.

Unfortunately there are some issues which must be faced when they arise. Playing along with a flawed system "for the sake of the children" is just kicking the can down the road for the next generation. It also risks sending a message to children that "the system" is more powerful than you are, and that standing up for your constitutional rights is a waste of time. That's quite a defeatist view, IMO.

.

realdanbreen · 05-09-2014 2:10pm

bajer101 wrote: »

My seven year old daughter moved to a Catholic school from an Educate Together school for logistical reasons. I'm a single Dad and am an atheist. I have always told my daughter that she can believe whatever she wants but that it would be better to wait until she is older to make her mind up as it is a very complicated subject.

I knew that moving her to a Catholic school would involve some religious teaching, but I thought that in this day and age it would be minimal. The trouble started on the first day when the class were colouring in a picture of Jesus and my daughter announced that she didn't believe in God. Her teacher told her that if said that again that she would be sent back to her old school! The other kids also seemed to gang up on her a bit over this. Over the next few days the subject came up again and she was sent to the principal's office and the principal told her that she had to believe in God!

My daughter is very upset over this and has feigned sickness to avoid going to school and last night she even disabled the alarm on my phone so that I wouldn't wake up in time (her plan worked!).

I am not sure what to do about this. The way I see it I have a few options.
1. Take her out of the school straight away as it is obviously very religiously oriented and there will be no good outcome if she is left there.
2. Get my daughter to play along and go with the flow.
3. Talk to the teacher and principal and try to come up with a reasonable solution.
4. Go all out nuclear and kick up a huge fuss and demand that my daughter be allowed opt out of all religious activity.

Any thoughts or advice would be appreciated.

Take option 1- problem sorted.
BTW are you certain that the principal told her that 'she had to believe in God' ?
Even 50 years ago that was unhard of.

Cabaal · 05-09-2014 2:12pm

wrt40 wrote: »

He signed the child up as a catholic. Some may not call that lying but I would.

How is it lying exactly? I look forward to your explanation,

Just because Catholic schools are state funded does not mean they have to make exceptions to their ethos. Their ethos is to teach Catholic children the bible.

I think you'll find the OP has every right to opt their child out of religion in a state funded school:

Article 44 Bunreacht na hEireann
4° Legislation providing State aid for schools shall not discriminate between schools under the management of different religious denominations, nor be such as to affect prejudicially the right of any child to attend a school receiving public money without attending religious instruction at that school.

Cabaal · 05-09-2014 2:14pm

realdanbreen wrote: »

Take option 1- problem sorted.
BTW are you certain that the principal told her that 'she had to believe in God' ?
Even 50 years ago that was unhard of.

Thats odd, its something I've heard more then once during my time in primary school.

Sometimes some very narrow minded people can't get their heads around the fact that a child (or adult) just doesn't believe in a god. These people can often be very well educated people, but that doesn't change their narrow viewpoint.

Delirium · 05-09-2014 2:16pm

TheQuietFella wrote: »

Take the child out of the school ffs!

A lot of places only have Catholic schools available so this isn't really much use in the majority of cases.

The parent is sending the child to a school & he wants to call the shots!!!

I don't think it's unreasonable for a parent to say that bullying carried out by teachers or principals is unacceptable.

Doesn't or shouldn't work this way!

It would be much better to have a secular pubic school system so as to avoid this sort of unprofessionalism from staff in the future.

ash23 · 05-09-2014 2:16pm

OP you gave them a baptismal cert. They assumed the child was Catholic. You could have told them she was baptised but that you are no longer part of the church or declined to give them the certificate in the first place.

Put them right in a polite way.

As the child was effectively registered with the school as a Catholic (by ommission) the school think they are acting in the parents beliefs.

Nearly every school in Ireland will have kids in the class who have different religions or none at all. There are methods of facilitating them with regards to religious education.

But you basically lead them to believe your child is being raised as a Catholic. You need to correct them and THEN see how they deal with the matter.

Cabaal · 05-09-2014 2:20pm

ash23 wrote: »

As the child was effectively registered with the school as a Catholic (by ommission) the school think they are acting in the parents beliefs.

Even if this was the case and what the op said actually happened the schools handling of it leaves alot to be desired and it was over the top.

Sending a child to the principals office was over the top, the teacher would have been better off having a quick word with the op when the child was being collected.

Having a baptism cert doesn't make somebody catholic,

Hell I have one and I'm not catholic and the church won't change their records to reflect this so as far as the catholic church is concerned I'm still a member of the church. The reality of the situation is I haven't seen myself as a member of the catholic church since around the age of 7.

realdanbreen · 05-09-2014 2:26pm

Cabaal wrote: »

Thats odd, its something I've heard more then once during my time in primary school.

.

I could go into a debate with you but the bottom line is I just do not believe you.

Cabaal · 05-09-2014 2:38pm

realdanbreen wrote: »

I could go into a debate with you but the bottom line is I just do not believe you.

Thats fair enough, your entitled to not believe something that actually happened to me. You can continue to believe that nobody would be so closed minded, but reality dictates otherwise of course....I certainly wish it wasn't the case,

At the end of the day as somebody who has always been very clear on their non-belief of god while in school i can tell you that many teachers and priests don't take such a claim very well.

I've experienced a lecturing from a priest, being thrown out of religion class just for asking questions more then once, being told that other religions/faith are only made up and wrong and heard numerous different versions of "you must believe in something", "sure god exists you must believe in him" etc etc.

You'd expect well educated people to be open minded to such things, but the fact that primary teacher training takes places in a catholic ethos organizations really kills off such open mindedness when it comes to religion in so so many teachers....though not all.

ash23 · 05-09-2014 2:38pm

Cabaal wrote: »

Even if this was the case and what the op said actually happened the schools handling of it leaves alot to be desired and it was over the top.

The OP registered the child with a Catholic school and provided a baptismal certificate indicating that the child was part of the Catholic church. The OP should have indicated the most up to date information about the child which is that the child is not a part of the church any longer. If a parent fails to provide the school with information that is accurate and up to date, they cannot then take offence when the school act on the information they have to hand.

Sending a child to the principals office was over the top, the teacher would have been better off having a quick word with the op when the child was being collected.

I agree but we weren't in the class and are only hearing one side of this. That's why I suggest OP talks to the school. Perhaps the child was sent to the principal to clarify what was in the child's records in case there had been instruction from the parent that had been overlooked? Perhaps the child was being very disruptive about the matter?

We don't know and the OP doesn't know the full scenario. Again that would be why talking to the school would be a good idea.

Having a baptism cert doesn't make somebody catholic,

Hell I have one and I'm not catholic and the church won't change their records to reflect this so as far as the catholic church is concerned I'm still a member of the church. The reality of the situation is I haven't seen myself as a member of the catholic church since around the age of 7.

Giving a baptismal certificate to a Catholic school when you are enrolling a child would strongly suggest that your child is Catholic and unless the school are given information to counteract what has been indicated, how are they to know the child is to be excluded from religious instruction and preparation for Catholic Sacraments along with the rest of their class?

If you hand someone a document which is evidence of your joining a certain religion, unless you correct them that it is no longer valid, how are they to know that you are no longer a member of that religion?

Op should have either advised the child had been baptised but they were not to be part of religion in school as they are no longer practicing Catholics or the OP should have never given the certificate and just said the child is an atheist.

Tombo2001 · 05-09-2014 2:42pm

eviltwin wrote: »

If kids are disadvantaged for not being Catholic surely we should be making an equal playing field for all children rather than expecting people to baptise their kids under duress.

Absolutely we should. So whens it going to happen?

dr strangelove · 05-09-2014 2:45pm

Option 5 - Ask your daughter what she wants to do.

Cymini Sectores · 05-09-2014 2:50pm

OP, this goes without saying, take her out at once; the poor girl. Leave religion/God out of it for a moment... she obviously is not happy there.

Cabaal · 05-09-2014 2:54pm

Cymini Sectores wrote: »

OP, this goes without saying, take her out at once; the poor girl. Leave religion/God out of it for a moment... she obviously is not happy there.

and in the mean time she shouldn't receive a education?

NewCorkLad · 05-09-2014 2:56pm

dr strangelove wrote: »

Option 5 - Ask your daughter what she wants to do.

She is seven, she wants to sit at home and watch tv.

Cymini Sectores wrote: »

OP, this goes without saying, take her out at once; the poor girl. Leave religion/God out of it for a moment... she obviously is not happy there.

She has only been there a week, of course she is gonna find it hard at first, she is the new girl with no friends. Pulling her out of the school at this stage would be just stupid and he will just have the same thing again at a new school. She needs time to get to know people and hopefully will get comfortable there.

OP just needs to speak to the teacher and principal to let them know his beliefs and wishes(as he is going to do) and see what they do from there.

realdanbreen · 05-09-2014 2:56pm

dr strangelove wrote: »

Option 5 - Ask your daughter what she wants to do.

She's 7 ! You think she's going to weigh up her options, look at the pro's & cons, come to an informed decision?

Cymini Sectores · 05-09-2014 3:01pm

Cabaal wrote: »

and in the mean time she shouldn't receive a education?

She can receive her education in another school.

NewCorkLad · 05-09-2014 3:06pm

Cymini Sectores wrote: »

She can receive her education in another school.

And if she doesnt like the new school after a week?

Cabaal · 05-09-2014 3:09pm

Cymini Sectores wrote: »

She can receive her education in another school.

So let me get this straight,
The OP should pull their child out of the school without making any attempt to talk to the school and they should just drag their child to another school that could potentially be very awkward to get to.

What happens if there is a different issue at some point in the future in the other school, they should just change school again?.
:rolleyes:

I have an alternative solution,

Instead the OP could just act like an adult and talk to the school (like they likely will) instead of simply running away from any sort of difficulty.

Seriously silly suggestion to simply move school without any attempts to act like a adult and try resolve what is a very simply issue, its not a big deal for a school to provide an opt out option...infact they have to.

Tombo2001 · 05-09-2014 3:10pm

Cymini Sectores wrote: »

She can receive her education in another school.

I think that is the whole point here.

Frequently, there is no other school.

Or if there is one, its much further away, or has inferior facilities or some other issue.

I was amazed, taken back, astounded, by how difficult it was to get my kids into a primary school. We had their names down for three or four schools from very early on, and it was only at the very last minute that we knew if we'd have a place.

The last thing I was going to do was say "hang on here, not sure about your policy on this this and this", before we had been offerred a place.

By all means, have the conversation afterwards.

I was delighted just to get a place.

That is the reality of schools in Dublin anyway.

Gerry T · 05-09-2014 3:11pm

Cymini Sectores wrote: »

She can receive her education in another school.

Fix the symptom not the illness !!!

The problem, as outlined by the OP, is the teacher and principal. Thats what needs fixing.
Why couldn't the teacher let it slide and give a note home to the parents asking to discuss their child's religious beliefs. Problem solved.

So don't loose sight of what's wrong Teacher AND Principal NOT Child.

The school my kids go to have children that don't participate in RE, they just goto another class while RE is on, have done from the start so its no problem for kids.

dr strangelove · 05-09-2014 3:14pm

realdanbreen wrote: »

She's 7 ! You think she's going to weigh up her options, look at the pro's & cons, come to an informed decision?

Sure - but i bet she either loves or hates the new school, or misses her friends at her old school - can't hurt to at least include her in your decision making process

Cymini Sectores · 05-09-2014 3:16pm

NewCorkLad wrote: »

And if she doesnt like the new school after a week?

She could always be cajoled to like it.

Tombo2001 · 05-09-2014 3:17pm

Just to remind people:

Religious Denominated Primary Schools have a hierarchy of who they will admit:

Whether it be CoI or Catholic (dont know about the muslim one).

It is:
(i) Children from the local parish of that denomination
(ii) Children from outside the local parish, of that denomination
(iii) Children from the local parish not of that denomination
(iv) Children from outside the local parish, not of that denomination.

What this means is that if you live next door to a primary school in say Ballyfermot, and your child is not baptised, then a Catholic/ CofI child living in Kildare or Meath or Wicklow would be offerred a place in the school next door to you, before your child would be offerred a place.

Messed up? Absolutely.
Campaign to change it? Go for it.*
But in the meantime.....what do you do for your kid. Do you take the hit on the baptism so he/she can go to the school next door; or do you go the end of a 500 long queue for an Educate Together 6 miles away.

*Bear in mind that most people do not give this subject a second's thought until they actually start applying to schools for their child, by which time they have an immediate need.

Cabaal · 05-09-2014 3:21pm

Tombo2001 wrote: »

Just to remind people:

Religious Denominated Primary Schools have a hierarchy of who they will admit:

Whether it be CoI or Catholic (dont know about the muslim one).

It is:
(i) Children from the local parish of that denomination
(ii) Children from outside the local parish, of that denomination
(iii) Children from the local parish not of that denomination
(iv) Children from outside the local parish, not of that denomination.

What this means is that if you live next door to a primary school in say Ballyfermot, and your child is not baptised, then a Catholic/ CofI child living in Kildare or Meath or Wicklow would be offerred a place in the school next door to you, before your child would be offerred a place.

Messed up? Absolutely.
Campaign to change it? Go for it.
But in the meantime.....what do you do for your kid. Do you take the hit on the baptism so he/she can go to the school next door; or do you go the end of 500 long queue for an Educate Together 6 miles away.

You do what you want to, not everyone can travel 10, 20, 30m 40, 50 miles to the nearest none catholic ethos school.

If that means having a cert to the school and then opting the child out of religion once they get in that thats a persons decision to do so, I don't personally think its a good idea as it means nothing will change but its a viable option.

We have a situation in our schools where a school can get rid of students OR teachers if they are not in-line with the ethos (student for being pregnant or a teacher for being gay), they are exempt from legislation that numerous other employers must follow when it comes to equality.

I would note however that some schools are far more strict in using this hierarchy then others, just like some schools are more open to gay teachers etc. Not all schools are created equally....mileage can vary depending on where you are in the country.

Cabaal · 05-09-2014 3:24pm

Cymini Sectores wrote: »

She could always be cajoled to like it.

and yet the same can't be done with the existing school?
:rolleyes:

letsseehere14 · 05-09-2014 3:31pm

Just to point out again, as some people seem happy to take the OP's post as absolute fact.
He has not spoken to the teacher or principal. He is taking what he was told by his 7 year old daughter, who has just started a new school, knowing noone, away from the friends she has previously made in her old school, as absolute fact without talking to the adults involved I.e. the teacher and principal. You seriously couldn't make it up!!

Daughter forced to believe in God

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