I've just been reminded - Michael Healy Ray [sp]?

tac

Touché.

tac

Sparks wrote: »

Doesn't have his anymore. Breaking the firearms act six ways from sunday on national telly will have that effect.

There's only one openly pro-shooting member of the oireachtas and that's the NARGC-appointed senator (Paschal Mooney).

He lost all? I had expected that but had assumed he would find a way around it

However,pointing out consistently that we have the most restrictive gun laws in the EU as it stands and we still have rising gun crime and politicians who openly admit that passing more gun laws will not solve the problem of gun crime as Aherne did in 08.
You could really ask what is the logic behind passing just one more law if it solves nothing and restricts the most law abiding further??That's not law that's repression of a segment of society.

Grizzly 45 wrote: »

However,pointing out consistently that we have the most restrictive gun laws in the EU as it stands and we still have rising gun crime and politicians who openly admit that passing more gun laws will not solve the problem of gun crime as Aherne did in 08.
You could really ask what is the logic behind passing just one more law if it solves nothing and restricts the most law abiding further??That's not law that's repression of a segment of society.

Truth.

Hurts some folks, don't it?

The whole point we are trying to make is one that's so ******* obvious that it's painful. Here it is again - Only the law-abiding pay attention to the law - whatever it is.

tac

As a matter in interest, why was the figure of "3" shot magazine capacity chosen as an acceptable size?
Was it because there are actually NO Pump or Semi-Auto shotguns available new nor in the past with this size magazine?
Are the Gardaí concerned about the impact on the pigeon population?

If a criminal steals a shotgun, will the Garda who confronts him be any more reassured knowing that the criminal can have 4 live shells in the shotgun rather than 5?

Here in UK -

Three round shotgun? Anybody can have as many as they want on a plain shotgun certificate.

More than three?

Needs a Firearms Certificate, just like a rifle.

One or other versions of this rule is found all over the EU.

tac

Zxthinger wrote: »

Well o got my submissions in just before midnight. 24pages of hell fire. Lol



It's seems plainly obivious now that the NGB's are happy to exclude hunters for reloading. Not one NGB raised the issue..

I'm disgusted my this insidious behaviour..

I doubt it's insidious behaviour by the NGB's. An oversight perhaps, but hardly insidious.

Zxthinger wrote: »

Also another big thank you to both Mark Dennhey and Damien Hannigan of the Wild deer association of ireland, afaik you were the only to gentlemen who mentioned reloading. Well done lads.

It's seems plainly obivious now that the NGB's are happy to exclude hunters for reloading. Not one NGB raised the issue..

I'm disgusted my this insidious behaviour..

Didn't the long rifle association go into great detail about it and invited them all down to mnsci. Admittedly for target shooting but still mentioned it

I'm not that familiar with the current law on reloading.
At present. Can it only be done in midlands?

Zxthinger wrote: »

Also another big thank you to both Mark Dennhey and Damien Hannigan of the Wild deer association of ireland, afaik you were the only to gentlemen who mentioned reloading. Well done lads.

Sir, this is NOT correct.

The VCRAI submitted copious notes on the subject of reloading, not just for the members of the association - who were NOT separately mentioned at all - but for EVERYBODY who has a firearms license who would like to be able to reload just like the rest of Planet Earth, without bunkers, security supervisors, policemen, firemen, Health & Safety inspectors RCOs, special 'reloading certificates' or 'licenses'.

In their own homes.

Or in a garage.

Or in a little garden shed - like I do.

Or on the range, like I do.

On the back of a pick-up truck, like I do.

The VCRAI submission was for EVERYBODY, not just the 'few'. This 'trial' that we are going through effects EVERY shooter in the RoI, not just the 'hunters' and the 'target shooters'. To divide the sport of shooting in this way serves only to give the opposition a stick to beat us over the head - division is NOT what is needed, UNITY is what is needed now.

Ben Franklin had it right a while back - 'Gentlemen, we must all hang together, else we shall most assuredly all hang seperately.'

Thank you.

tac

knockon wrote: »

We are currently the only club in Ireland which is allowed to legally reload rifle ammunition. That was done because it is an essential part of our sport. What we do is somewhat like the Formula One of shooting, where little things mean a lot, as the song says. We try to eliminate all the little things - the cumulative errors and so on. If someone who did not know what was involved in that were to watch somebody loading ammunition for a competition, he or she would probably fall asleep before anything happened.

Shakes of head.:( These words above are, IMO, blatently patronising and condescending to the large number of shooters in Ireland who can either not afford to join in your freedom to reload, or live too far away, or are hunters and nothing else.

It's not only the best shots who deserve to be allowed to reload, but EVERY person who WANTS to who holds a gun license.

Just like everybody else.

tac

Just an addition thought..(and please try to remain calm while reading this-opinion..)

Everyone here, well nearly everyone here keeps claiming that we owe the midland's range and their reloaders at debt of gratitude or at least a possible debt of gratitude, for it seems that they stopped reloading form being banned by keeping it alive.
And I'm not challenging that concept and I know they spent serious money getting a registered premises sorted and approved. However I must state that their expendure does not give them entitlement and yes, i know they are not claiming that but it could be an influencing part of there thought process. Any company/business is going to try and make a return on their investment, that's just life..

Cast your mind back to section 10a of the firearms act- as amended by section 40 of the CJA2006- which BTW was never actually set into law or commenced.
This is the only legislation that was axed to the best of my knowledge and I can only assume that it was axed in light of the pilot scheme.
I don't see how this legislation would have banned anything if it had have been introduced.

Perhaps I'm barking up the wrong tree here.. But the failure to commence that amendment left all of us with no possible avenue of applying for a reloading licence that only cost €90.. I know people will quote the requirement of a "special need" and they will say this wording was an effective ban in realitity" but imo it's not much different to the current requirement for having a genuine or good reason to aquire a firearm in the first instance. I know it's a return to 'subjective interpretation' but it's still not the "total ban"...that we apparently/narrowly avoided with the supposed intervention of the midlands and co.

Don't go mental reading this, it's genuine and honest opinion.



Personally I could have met this 'special needs' requirement but perhaps others might not have been able to convince the supers. But had this law been implement, then I see it as being far from banning reloading
http://www.irishstatutebook.ie/2007/en/act/pub/0011/sec0072.html
This opinion has nothing to do with storage requirements and that's another story.

Home reloading could have a useful security benefit for owners of c/f handguns. In the same way security is improved by taking vital bits of a gun and storing in a hidden safe, having your ammo 'broken up' and secured in seperate lots must improve security too. The owner could load his rounds the day before going to the range and minimise the risk of live ammo getting into the wrong hands.
Even if the house was burgled and everything taken the average skanger probably couldn't assemble the ammunition.
So reloading can lower the risk to society.... did anyone raise this in a submission?

Zxthinger wrote: »

To answer deaf git, that's in no way practical or beneficial. Imagine having such measures forced upon you!.
s

Really? Having the opportunity to load rounds tailor made to your own gun is neither practical or beneficial for target shooting?
And spending money on reloading gear to produce quality ammo at reduced cost for years to come would be such a terrible thing?
If reloading is neither practical or beneficial why are we now listening to bitching over reloading? Or the lack of reloading? Or who didn't mention reloading?

If my having a 9mm target pistol or tuned .38 revolver was conditional on not keeping whole ammo at home I'd be ok with it. That's me, my opinion. You can have your opinion.
There are other measures we could look at to finally dispel the 'public safety' BS, like leaving the barrel of a pistol at the range and keeping the frame etc at home. You might agree or not.

[

QUOTE=Cass;94102954]Been here, done this. You know that there is no current or new law that they had to abide by. They were told to do so by the DoJ, and they done so. Much in the same way the law says i can have a semi auto .308/223 but everyone i know of that has applied for one since the proposals were released has been refused.

Not trying to contradict you Cass,but I'm 1000% sure there is a SI or act that is around 2001 that covers reloading on a commercial basis.I had all the files on my previous PC which crashed and took the whole thing to data Heaven:(
I've been trying to find this legislation and cant for the love of me find it or refer it,but I was told by DOJ that was the current legislation they would only consider reloading under..

One lad actually told me that he knows a dealer that has a semi auto in his shop that was revoked from a lad. Not legal, yet it's happening.

Well, its a bit hard to judge as to why it was revoked from just that.need abit more to form an opinion on the case.

There is the problem Grizz, and you know it as well as i do if not more so as you put more time into this than i could be bothered with. The law as it is says once you fulfill certain criteria you should be issued a personal "reloading license" (to keep it simple). Try it. See how it goes.

FIRST I've ever heard of a personal non commercial,hobbyist reloading liscense here. If there is such,please let me know how that one works and I'll crack on it??

We discussed this not a year ago when you done all the research, and checks. Did you try it since. Did you even test the waters to see what re-action you'd get?

This was two years ago by now...I haven't done anything further with it for the simple reason that;

1]I was told.. You will have to work under this commercial reloading SI act ,that I cant find and was my original question.Thats from Mr Guinane whom you know and was also involved in the Midlands project from the word go.[Note to self contact him for this act DOH!]

2] If this is the legislation currently in force,unless you set up an ammo company, this will be no way in Hell economically viable to anyone.Bar maybe you are an eccentric millionare wanting to reload in Ireland. You are dealing with three bodies your CC,AGS and fire dept. The fire cheif wanted a 3,5k fire alarm in my stone cellar and extra escape routes cut in,as per the act into the walls.Thats even before we got to security and premises modification or buying the first collet set or powder measure...As I said 3.5k buys me all the commercial loads I need for a decade of shooting.

I have relatives that reload in Germany and what they said about it confirms it for me even in a by our standards ,"liberal gun law country:rolleyes:" that unless you are reloading for experimental loads,obscure calibers [as they do for three guns] or tailor making a round to a gun.It positively,asbolutely,never will not save you money!!!That you will save money by reloading your own shotgun ammo or commercial round for deer hunting is an absolute FALLACY When you break it down to cost per round of a reloaded shotgun shell Vs a store bought shotgun shell. Factoring in liscensing courses,powder storage magazines local permits,and then buying the equipment for the three specific reloading setups.Its cheaper to buy four slabs of Rottweil ammo than reload a single shell.

It might,just might pay for itself with a pistol shooter who has such a customised machine that it needs a tailor made round to function 100% reliabely in a match and he is shooting semi pro in matches on the international scene and hasnt got a sponsor to pay for his ammo.If you are shooting at that level you will be knee deep in spent brass on a weekly level to keep in top position.So there it could be possibly justified.


3] Importing the basic raw materials of powder and primers is an utter logistical and beuracratic nightmare into the ROI.Involving HAZMAT shiping by sea ,explosive proof vechicles,trained drivers in HAZMAT transport to get it to place of usage if it is in any particular bulk shipment over 50 kgs[?] If you were to get over this as a dealer you need a seperate storage room away from any residental building ,[say if you have your family home beside or above your gunshop] to store the powder,you cant store it with ready made ammo for some reason.So a big financial risk setting this up as a gun dealer for what questionable return.

DO NOT confuse anything i've said above as a "our way is the right way". I've said from day one i'd love to have it at home, i'd love to see it for everyone, and at home for everyone. I don't have the authority or power to make that happen. Perhaps had a few more or even all the NGBs put in submissions back when they were being sought the DoJ would have thought to themselves "maybe this can work, and could be a good source of revenue". However when after 3 or 6 months they only had one, they most likely thought "no one really wants this reloading lark, except one crowd. Let them try it, but be ultra careful".

Preaching to the converted there.I'd certainly love to see it available too that you could get a cheap LEE hand loader and I could thump out a dozen sub sonic .243 rounds that work in my SASR.This powder is less dangerous than a gallon of petrol stored pretty sloppily in a few car boots out there.
However as it stands and as I see it.

1] There is already est legislation since the early 2000s to deal with manufacturing ammo in Ireland on a COMMERCIAL level,and thats what the PTB will refer you to like it or not at the current minute. It is totally unweildly and impossible and ridicilous for a normal person to actually comply with this unless he wants to set up an ammo reloading company.Or has money to burn.
Until that is taken into consideration by the PTB that we are only using half kilo amounts not hundreds and are making it for personal usage,not commercial
resale this legislation will never change...

It would be easier nowadys to set up a home Potin still and liscense this to make limited runs of your own home booze than actually follow Irelands current SI on reloading.

2] Figure out a way that satisfies AGS/DOJ/DOT on how you will get this HAZMAT into the country ,as per their regulations,cheaply,economically and efficently on a regular basis to supply your dealers and distributors and your customers.You are dealing with people in all 3 depts who know only it is EXPLOSIVE HAZMAT and nothing else and have proably never handled a explosive load like this before,so they will make sure every last I is dotted and T crossed and every shoelace double knotted before your truck rolls onto the ferry in the UK or France.

3] Convince the PTB that in reality this stuff is no more dangerous than petrol and reloading no more dangerous than filling your car petrol tank.Ad that unless you are storing more than 50 kgs of the stuff,building a blast proof cellar in the middle of nowhere is utter over kill.As Sparks said in the hearings.Everything is measurable in this sport.So we could even tell them how much powder you would need to reload your ammo to your liscense limit of already made shells too if they wanted to be that pendantic and worried about "terrorists and criminals" making off with the powder...

Those are in my opinion in broad brush strokes the 3 problems to be sorted out here to make reloading do able here,but there is about another 50 devils in the details I haven't mentioned, or forgotton.

I get the impression the way that bill head is written,that there is an ASSUMPTION by the working group that reloading already is carried out here in the ROI already on a daily basis by shooters and that it must be done under their proposed legislation change in a Midlands like situation and facilities???
If that is the case I'm surprised Mr Guniane didnt dissuade them that this is not the case at all and that there is only the Midlands doing reloading,that there is legislation in place covering reloading and its open for any group to follow the legislation and do like wise,if they have the time and money to do so?