Gardai proposals to ban firearms

Grizzly 45 · 27-01-2015 1:38pm

Sparks wrote: »

I
Well, yes, but in this case it's accidental. I'm pretty sure nobody even thought about pistol-rifle conversion kits when drafting that definition because the drafters didn't know about them.

I think that was one of my first ever posts here back in the mists of time!!:pWhen the DOJ was looking for submissions in 08,I asked had they considerd the situation of pistol carbines and the fact they could be .if pistols were made illegal ,become pistol caliber carbines....guess they hadn't and still haven't.
Yet funnily enough even from 1972 onwards to the present day there is a combination gun that allowed you to have a complete .22 pistol lower in a rifle stock and barrel. I give you the French Unique .22 rifle/pistol carbine.Technically a bull pup under our accidental legislation but unrestricted liscense with a ten shot mag.
Only thing that was confiscated in 1972 was the .22 pistol upper slide and barrel,yet it was and is freely available still in France to purchase,[although Unique is gone].
So how do AGS explain away that one???

Sparks · 27-01-2015 2:05pm

Grizzly 45 wrote: »

When the DOJ was looking for submissions in 08,I asked had they considerd the situation of pistol carbines and the fact they could be .if pistols were made illegal ,become pistol caliber carbines....guess they hadn't and still haven't.

I'm guessing that they thought pistol caliber carbines weren't pistols with conversion kits added (but seperate purpose-built rifles) when they were drafting the definition of bullpup rifles...

tac foley · 27-01-2015 2:46pm

Grizzly 45 wrote: »

Ah but now Tac our betters define this carbine here as a.......BULLPUP RIFLE!!! Because the magazine is behind the trigger!!!Thus making it a restricted firearm again. Makey up law in extremis. .

The magazine is 'behind the trigger' for all but a VERY few.22 target type handguns - we have had this conversation before.

The PDF service rifle IS a 'bull-pup' design.

The British service rifle whatever it's called these days is a 'bull-pup' design.

But, that ludicrous definition also makes the little .22 Browning rifle - with its magazine fed via a cut-out in the butt, a 'bull-pup' design.

How many of THOSE are flapping around in the RoI? My dad had one back in the 1930's...

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Browning_22_Semi-Auto_rifle

As for pistol-calibre rifles and carbines - every .22cal rifle EVER MADE is also a pistol calibre firearm.

With such errant nonsense being bandied around by the PTB there is small wonder that there should be such frustration on the part of legal shooters in Ireland. The 'it is so because I say it is so' brigade are p$$ing in your collective hats, people.

tac

Grizzly 45 · 27-01-2015 3:34pm

Sparks wrote: »

I'm guessing that they thought pistol caliber carbines weren't pistols with conversion kits added (but seperate purpose-built rifles) when they were drafting the definition of bullpup rifles...

Shheesssh!! At one time in our history those were the most common type of pistols in this country!! At one stage Ireland was awash with artillery and marine Lugers with shoulder stock holsters and the famous broom handle Mauser with its holster/shoulder stock.The very icon gun of the 1916 week and war of independance.Used by Dev and Pearse and issued to Casement,and Bob Monteith on the U boat in Easter week??

All brought back as war booty by an Irish regiment that faced the German Marines at the Marne...In fact in ww2 the Irish officer corps were issued Lugers as second line equipment as there werent enough Webleys to go around.
So no one in AGS or DOJ has ever decided to go and have a look what types of guns ,past and present were available or possibly out there that they would be drawing up legislation on??? I bet I'm not the only one here who isnt in the least bit surprised.

Sparks · 27-01-2015 3:52pm

Grizzly 45 wrote: »

So no one in AGS or DOJ has ever decided to go and have a look what types of guns ,past and present were available or possibly out there that they would be drawing up legislation on?

I think the DoJ might have, but they'd have been looking at what was in use in the country at the time and that would have been a decade or so ago, before the '06 Act.

I bet I'm not the only one here who isnt in the least bit surprised.

Nobody'd take that bet

tac foley · 27-01-2015 4:09pm

The famous photograph and painting of General Richard Mulcahy wearing HIS Navy Luger is on the wall of my loading shed.

tac

Gormley85 · 27-01-2015 6:08pm

clivej wrote: »

Yeah the AW93 is gone a year or more now.

I should have kept it the best Handgun by far and nothing I've had come near to it. :mad:

I actually know the young girl that you sold it to. Shes hoping to win some compeitions with it this year.

clivej · 27-01-2015 9:36pm

Gormley85 wrote: »

I actually know the young girl that you sold it to. Shes hoping to win some compeitions with it this year.

And a lovely girl too. Hope she does as well as I did with it

:)

Tell her I was asking for her please

Gormley85 · 28-01-2015 11:06am

clivej wrote: »

And a lovely girl too. Hope she does as well as I did with it :)

Tell her I was asking for her please

Will do...

Sparks · 28-01-2015 6:49pm

Transcripts of the Joint Committee hearing are now up here.

ruger1894c · 28-01-2015 7:44pm

Sparks wrote: »

Transcripts of the Joint Committee hearing are now up here.

at the bottom of the transcripts it says that it was adjourened till 10 am today any further Development on this??

bpb101 · 28-01-2015 9:08pm

ruger1894c wrote: »

at the bottom of the transcripts it says that it was adjourened till 10 am today any further Development on this??

they deal with wide range of things, firearms law is just the flavor of the week last week.

Sparks · 29-01-2015 4:15pm

Two interesting written questions from tuesday:

Niall Collins (Limerick, Fianna Fail)
302. To ask the Minister for Justice and Equality if she will provide by year the number of handguns recovered by an Garda Síochána during the years 2004 to date in 2015 which had been used in the commission of a crime and which had previously been recorded on PULSE as a licensed firearm; and if she will make a statement on the matter. [3562/15]

Frances Fitzgerald (Minister, Department of Justice and Equality; Dublin Mid West, Fine Gael)

I have asked the Garda Commissioner for a report in relation to the matter and will write to the Deputy as soon as I have further information.

That's interesting because up to now there's been a form answer given out. After the questions raised in the Joint Committee, it seems this is being looked at again.

Mattie McGrath (Tipperary South, Independent)
320. To ask the Minister for Justice and Equality if she will address a matter (details supplied) raised by her Dáil contribution of 15 January 2015; and if she will make a statement on the matter. [3936/15]

Frances Fitzgerald (Minister, Department of Justice and Equality; Dublin Mid West, Fine Gael)

Firstly I would like to clarify to the Deputy that in answering a Parliamentary Question on 15 January, I inadvertently said 1,363 firearms applications were refused by the District Courts. The applications referred to, totalling 1,363 applications, were refused by An Garda Síochána and not by the Courts. I have arranged to have the Dáil record corrected to reflect that fact.

Section 8 of the Working Group Report on the review of firearms licensing, published for consultation in November 2013, sets out views expressed by members of the judiciary in relation to legislative provisions governing firearms. The Deputy will appreciate that it would not be appropriate for me to comment on individual cases before the Courts. However, I am advised that over the past four years, Judges in District Courts have commented that it is a matter for the legislature and not the judiciary to address the concerns of senior Garda Officers tasked with considering applications to licence, in particular, large calibre handguns and semi automatic centre fire rifles. For example, I am advised by An Garda Síochána that Judge Lucey, in various District Courts throughout the country, Judge O‘Kelly in Limerick District Court and Judge Kennedy in Bray District Court have dealt with the issue that as the legislation currently allows for the licensing of such firearms, the law must be applied as it currently exists.

Furthermore, An Garda Síochána have advised that judges have raised issues in relation to interpreting Section 33 of the Criminal Justice (Miscellaneous Provisions) Act 2009, which prohibits 'practical or dynamic shooting'. I am advised by An Garda Síochána that Judge Riordan in Cork District Court, Judge McNulty in Bandon District Court, Judge Larkin in Kilmallock District Court, Judge Neylon in Mullingar District Court and Judge Kelleher in Cork District Court have commented on the difficulties in interpreting what exactly constitutes 'a form of activity in which firearms are used to simulate combat or combat training', which was a central issue in appeal cases before these courts.

Additionally, Judge Durcan, in a written judgment in Ennis District Court on 5 November, 2014, addressed an issue relating to the interpretation of the legislation when he stated: “By way of casual initial observation, it must be said that the manner of amendment adopted by the legislature with respect to the Firearms Code is to be regretted. The 2006 Act amends substantially fourteen of the thirty sections of the Principal Act, six important sections of the Principal Act being completely amended by substitution. The 2009 Act contains an additional 20 sections which effect considerable amendments to the code. It is highly unsatisfactory that the code must now be read by reference to a number of different statutes, when the opportunity could have been taken to provide a consolidating statute. Despite developments in information technology and the empowerment of computer consolidation, Statue Law should be easily accessible not merely to Lawyers and Legislators, but also to ordinary citizens in a comprehensible manner”.

The Deputy has also raised the question of the ability of the Garda PULSE system to produce figures on the number of cases which were appealed to the District Court and how many were granted. The Deputy will appreciate that firearms legislation provides for an appeal to the District Court where a firearms licence has been refused by An Garda Síochána. I am informed that the information sought regarding such cases is not readily available to An Garda Síochána or the Courts Service. The work required to collate this information could only be retrieved by way of a manual examination of each individual court record. This would require a disproportionate and inordinate amount of staff time and effort and could not be justified in current circumstances where there are other significant demands on resources. Furthermore, An Garda Síochána have advised that refused renewal applications for restricted firearms that were subsequently granted on appeal are no longer recorded on PULSE as refused or appealed. These applications are updated on the system to show the application as granted. I understand this new method of updating the licensing system on PULSE was introduced to address concerns of interest groups, so that licence holders granted a licence after an appeal do not have an initial refusal recorded on their licence record.

And that's interesting too; that's now us and the Minister and the Joint Committee (along with a Judge I hadn't heard of - I know Charleton was calling for this, but I'd not noticed Durcan had done it too), all pointing out or agreeing that a restatement of the Firearms Act is needed, and rather badly...

SVI40 · 29-01-2015 5:15pm

It will be interesting to see if Deputy Collins's question will ever be answered, considering how many times questions of a similar vein have been asked, and never answered.

yubabill1 · 29-01-2015 7:04pm

Sparks wrote: »

And that's interesting too; that's now us and the Minister and the Joint Committee (along with a Judge I hadn't heard of - I know Charleton was calling for this, but I'd not noticed Durcan had done it too), all pointing out or agreeing that a restatement of the Firearms Act is needed, and rather badly...

That's not an earthquake you feel, lads.

It's called a pivot.

Sparks · 29-01-2015 7:49pm

yubabill1 wrote: »

It's called a pivot.

And since all the proposals all rely on the law being the mess it is right now...

tac foley · 29-01-2015 8:25pm

The entirety of firearms law in the Republic of Ireland needs to be re-written to reflect the many changes that have taken place since 1922, 1949, 1972 and 2002, and lastly, but not least, the acceptance of the invention of non-explosive propellants that took place after the 1875 Explosives Act.

To make even the slightest move in this direction, there needs to be a sea-change in the ground knowledge regarding firearms of ALL kinds undertaken by those who make the laws, which is so appallingly lacking as to be almost indescribable.

If it means hiring in genuine experts on firearm's related matters to advise - people with an international reputation and standing like Colin Greenwood or Mike Yardley - then pride and arrogance - 'we don't need any foreigners telling US what to do or how to do it' -needs to be set aside for the greater good of the public whose component of shooters is currently suffering such inequalities and inept judgement based on ignorance.

Make no mistake - shooters are part of the population, and have the same rights as the non-shooter - that of being able to vote and have a say in who gets to sit on those nice comfy seats in the Dáil, or who loses the right to do so.

tac

Nekarsulm · 29-01-2015 8:31pm

Has anyone produced a list of TD's and Senators, indicating whether each is broadly "Pro" shooting sports, or "Anti" ?

tac foley · 29-01-2015 8:46pm

I think that that would be a very closely-guarded secret. Given the low public opinion that is evident whenever shooting is mentioned in a public forum - much of what the general public sees is negative and does not show the shooting sports in any particularly good light, but concentrates, instead, on the criminal use of firearms.

A politician who stood up and said, 'well, actually, I'M a member of such and such a gun club and not only shoot target rifle and handgun, but hunt deer and shoot game-birds too' would probably be disowned by his/her party within minutes.

Maybe there ARE such people, but unless YOU know who they are, I'm guessing that the voting public will never know.

tac

Grizzly 45 · 29-01-2015 10:48pm

Gotta say whoever is feeding Min Frannie this BS is some piece of work!:rolleyes:

he Deputy will appreciate that it would not be appropriate for me to comment on individual cases before the Courts.

Done and dusted Frannie you can comment all you like on them.

For example, I am advised by An Garda Síochána that Judge Lucey, in various District Courts throughout the country, Judge O‘Kelly in Limerick District Court and Judge Kennedy in Bray District Court have dealt with the issue that as the legislation currently allows for the licensing of such firearms, the law must be applied as it currently exists.

Yeah that would be nice Frannie....Great pity your predecessors and Noreens predecessors didnt mention that minor fact to their underlings and minions to do this...
Or is it the slight matter that said minions and underlings lose the appeal in the DC that they are now responsible for the costs and are in panic mode and are trying to sort this out by simply insisting on banning them to remove the problem???Doesent take a super sleuth to figure that one out.

F

urthermore, An Garda Síochána have advised that judges have raised issues in relation to interpreting Section 33 of the Criminal Justice (Miscellaneous Provisions) Act 2009, which prohibits 'practical or dynamic shooting'. I am advised by An Garda Síochána that Judge Riordan in Cork District Court, Judge McNulty in Bandon District Court, Judge Larkin in Kilmallock District Court, Judge Neylon in Mullingar District Court and Judge Kelleher in Cork District Court have commented on the difficulties in interpreting what exactly constitutes 'a form of activity in which firearms are used to simulate combat or combat training', which was a central issue in appeal cases before these courts.

[/QUOTE]
Only reason it is an issue is because AGS have tried to consistently make an issue of it in every appeal with allusions and cast asperations on that every disipline is some sort of "combat training or police training." Why none of these judges couldnt have done like their colleuge Judge O Kelly orderd is beyond me,and that is simply for AGS to attend some of these shoots and see if there was a "dynamic element"[IE moving with a loaded firearm] involved.
DI Brookes ,Sgt Greene and CS Shehan were orderd to attend one of these in Sept 2013,and confirmed there was no dynamic element in the cF rifle match,although DI Brookes tried deperately to link it to NRA service matches and Sniper shooting ,because I used a telescopic sight on my rifle...:rolleyes:
Again we simply have AGS muddying the waters here to confuse the judicary.:mad:

Also Judge Lucey said in my case in May ..That "it is a ridicilous situation that these people should have to be dragging themselves and their cheif supers back to court every three years to appeal these liscenses when the circumstances have not changed.How many more times does this man have to return to court to renew his liscense?? I would implore in future that both parties sit down and discuss and sort out the liscensing over a table,a court is not the ideal place for this."

Very wise Judge ,ironically on the day of the case for my 9mm was up,my liscense expired for my semi rifle.I did do this with the CS over a period of five hours over two days and was STILL refused on a technicality [looks like,just about ,maybe,if you look at it from a acute angle in semi darkness:rolleyes:],which they didnt even contest in the end in Oct. So another waste of my time and money and of taxpayers monies in dragging four police officers into court to do nothing except lose 30k worth of Divisions budget in six hours flat.
This is another problem,we can talk,rationilise ,show good cause,etc ,they will listen,but they don't want to hear us...Unless it will cost them MONEY!! Even in the comittee meeting,the FG lad was saying would we ballisticaly test our guns and pay for it and if there was an independant liscensing authoritrhy set up would it cost the tax payer much??

The Deputy will appreciate that firearms legislation provides for an appeal to the District Court where a firearms licence has been refused by An Garda Síochána. I am informed that the information sought regarding such cases is not readily available to An Garda Síochána or the Courts Service. The work required to collate this information could only be retrieved by way of a manual examination of each individual court record. This would require a disproportionate and inordinate amount of staff time and effort and could not be justified in current circumstances where there are other significant demands on resources.

HORSE SHT!!!
I have my records of the CS notes on both recent cases under the DPA.
You dont even need to go to the courts.Every AGS CS who refused these types of liscenses in their divisions must have the case records for court appeals. So using basic math,COUNT how many appealed cases there were in a division by the files in the Cheifs office and that were won and send those figures to Garda HQ,get a pocket calculator and add them all up and pass on the information!! We are talking seven years so thats appx two renewals and appeals per liscense per division on average.How difficult is this with less than 1200 firearms of all three types???:rolleyes: This is nothing more than now impendening a comittee investigation.

Grizzly 45 · 29-01-2015 11:01pm

tac foley wrote: »

.

Maybe there ARE such people, but unless YOU know who they are, I'm guessing that the voting public will never know.

tac

That's David Cameron finished then!:D:D:D:D:D
Charlie Haughey was quite fond of the odd flake at something with his shotgun and .22 rifle[Belive a lad who posted here awhile ago ,now owns his .22]
Brian Cowen was pictured on ISD after his election with a acatter gun and said he enjoyed shooting.
And lets not forget our Willie O Dea with his unfortunate handgun pose.:D:D
[Although in fairness to him he has been quite helpful ,as any politican is,when in opposition.:P]
Dont suppose it would matter anyway what an individual politican or TD says here anyway.Under the whip system they vote as they are told to.

tac foley · 29-01-2015 11:17pm

I've just been reminded - Michael Healy Ray [sp]?

tac

tac foley · 29-01-2015 11:32pm

Grizzly 45 wrote: »

That's David Cameron finished then!

And much of the Royal Family, including Herself. Prince Philip, BTW, is the patron of the National Rifle Association.

The majority of English gun makers - Churchill, Holland and Holland, Cogswell & Harrison and so on - are also 'by appointment' gunmakers to the royal family.

There are two most vociferous supporters of shooting in the Commons - both, oddly enough, Labour back-benchers, one of whom became a back-bencher after she expressed her pro-shooting views in public.

I'd just remind you, gently, so as not to cause offence, that things are very different here in UK. Unless there is some glaringly obvious tick in the 'not bl**dy likely' box, everybody over the age of 18 in the UK can have a shotgun certificate ]SGC] for sporting purposes. That single shotgun certificate entitles you to buy ANY number of shotguns of the 'up-to-three shots' variety, and I mean ANY number that you can think of as being reasonable. Two? Five? Forty? Whatever.

The figures here from the Home Office are five years out of date, but I'm sure the picture is clear -

There were 141,775 firearm certificates on issue on 31 March 2010, an increase of 2% compared with the end of March 2009
.• 580,653 shotgun certificates were on issue on 31 March 2010, 1% up
• Those certificates cover a total of 1.8m guns.
The figures show that the highest number of guns are covered by certificates in Devon and Cornwall, where 97,954 guns are licensed. Most of those are shotguns (71,768), however, and that maybe reflects the rural nature of the area.

We have shotgun certificate holders at the age of 12, boys and girls - they cannot own the gun until they are 18, but they are permitted to use it in the company of an adult [who is also a SGC holder, obviously].

That's why the UK has international and world champion 16-yo girls representing their country in sporting clays.

tac

Sparks · 29-01-2015 11:49pm

tac foley wrote: »

I've just been reminded - Michael Healy Ray [sp]?

Doesn't have his anymore. Breaking the firearms act six ways from sunday on national telly will have that effect.

There's only one openly pro-shooting member of the oireachtas and that's the NARGC-appointed senator (Paschal Mooney).

Sparks · 29-01-2015 11:51pm

tac foley wrote: »

That's why the UK has international and world champion 16-yo girls representing their country in sporting clays

In the spirit of good-natured joshing, I feel we really have to remember who won this year's junior world championships in trap

tac foley · 29-01-2015 11:52pm

Touché.

tac

no12 · 30-01-2015 9:05am

Sparks wrote: »

In the spirit of good-natured joshing, I feel we really have to remember who won this year's junior world championships in trap

The most satusfying point of that Victory was about 10 years that Individual was pictured on the front of the ISD at the NARGC All Irelands aged about 9 years of age. A member of AGS seen it and then they proceeded to clamp down on various ranges and clubs telling them under 16s at the time (i think) were not permitted to shoot. As has been previously pointed out if you want to produce World Champions they must start at that age and earlier.

cw67irl · 30-01-2015 9:54am

Sparks wrote: »

Doesn't have his anymore. Breaking the firearms act six ways from sunday on national telly will have that effect.

There's only one openly pro-shooting member of the oireachtas and that's the NARGC-appointed senator (Paschal Mooney).

He lost all? I had expected that but had assumed he would find a way around it

mrbrianj · 30-01-2015 10:23am

tac foley wrote: »

The entirety of firearms law in the Republic of Ireland needs to be re-written to reflect the many changes that have taken place since 1922, 1949, 1972 and 2002, and lastly, but not least, the acceptance of the invention of non-explosive propellants that took place after the 1875 Explosives Act.

To make even the slightest move in this direction, there needs to be a sea-change in the ground knowledge regarding firearms of ALL kinds undertaken by those who make the laws, which is so appallingly lacking as to be almost indescribable.

If it means hiring in genuine experts on firearm's related matters to advise - people with an international reputation and standing like Colin Greenwood or Mike Yardley - then pride and arrogance - 'we don't need any foreigners telling US what to do or how to do it' -needs to be set aside for the greater good of the public whose component of shooters is currently suffering such inequalities and inept judgement based on ignorance.

Make no mistake - shooters are part of the population, and have the same rights as the non-shooter - that of being able to vote and have a say in who gets to sit on those nice comfy seats in the Dáil, or who loses the right to do so.

tac

Tac, I suppose, That is whats happening. Only the people they listen to are Non experts with agendas - who think the law should ban ownership of firearms. They know that cant be done - so the plan is to draft laws that make it so difficult to licence your firearms you will just give up.

Every TD loves to say they are tough on gun crime - that fact that there is no crime from legally held firearm holders wont get in the way of that soundbite.

Grizzly 45 · 30-01-2015 10:51am

However,pointing out consistently that we have the most restrictive gun laws in the EU as it stands and we still have rising gun crime and politicians who openly admit that passing more gun laws will not solve the problem of gun crime as Aherne did in 08.
You could really ask what is the logic behind passing just one more law if it solves nothing and restricts the most law abiding further??That's not law that's repression of a segment of society.

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