A boat full of carbs

ford2600 · 29-08-2014 11:09am

kennyb3 wrote: »

Hoping this might be best place to ask;

Macadamia nuts - okay to eat unroasted & unsalted?

Considerable more expensive when they are roasted & salted.

No exact quantity mentioned here. Reason to be concerned.

I eat plenty of nuts every day - I struggle to get enough fat in otherwise - end up eating large quantities of meat and possibly too much protein.

No idea on nuts.

Why not add more pure fat to diet. I add and enjoy enormous amounts of olive oil to every savoury meal.

ford2600 · 29-08-2014 11:09am

kennyb3 wrote: »

Hoping this might be best place to ask;

Macadamia nuts - okay to eat unroasted & unsalted?

Considerable more expensive when they are roasted & salted.

No exact quantity mentioned here. Reason to be concerned.

I eat plenty of nuts every day - I struggle to get enough fat in otherwise - end up eating large quantities of meat and possibly too much protein.

No idea on nuts.

Why not add more pure fat to diet. I add and enjoy enormous amounts of olive oil to every savoury meal.

TheBlaaMan · 29-08-2014 11:18am

kennyb3 wrote: »

Hoping this might be best place to ask;

Macadamia nuts - okay to eat unroasted & unsalted?

Considerable more expensive when they are roasted & salted.

No exact quantity mentioned here. Reason to be concerned.

I eat plenty of nuts every day - I struggle to get enough fat in otherwise - end up eating large quantities of meat and possibly too much protein.

Roast them yourself... It's dead simple. Or fry them in a hot dry pan....delicious,especially peanuts done this way.

kennyb3 · 29-08-2014 11:20am

AstraMonti wrote: »

I eat about 20-25 (rough estimate) of unsalted macadamia nuts per day plus some pecans and walnuts. I think it's fair to say not to go nuts with nuts, nothing is good in extreme portions. How come you are struggling with fat? Do you like/eat cheese?

Btw I was for ten days in the states and I completely ignored my eating, went in a carb fest, came back with 3.5kgs extra, damn!

It's more been a lately problem, my local lidl is closed for renovations and shopping has been shoddy/patchy. Love cheese - normally eat plenty. No lidl = v.expensive in supervalu. I'm happy to spend plenty to eat well but it's been getting out of hand lately!

kennyb3 · 29-08-2014 11:22am

TheBlaaMan wrote: »

Roast them yourself... It's dead simple. Or fry them in a hot dry pan....delicious,especially peanuts done this way.

Yeah pretty obvious really - just wanted them delivered to the office door and there as a snack.

I guess my post was more about wanting to see what was mentioned re benefits of roasted v unroasted etc.

pprendeville · 29-08-2014 12:04pm

Tried this this morning and it sure is tasty. Added in some sundried tomato and replaced the goats chees with Lidl cheddar cheese. Have never really eaten chorizo but I think it will become more of a staple in my diet.

There's also a great menu organised by time of day (breakfast, lunch, dinner etc) here and here

Just a quick note that we have started using pure dairy butter for frying and it's great. Thanks to Astra for sharing the 1st recipe.

AstraMonti · 29-08-2014 12:14pm

Those meals are nice but they are very little calories there for a person who works out, you might want to increase the portions.

pprendeville · 29-08-2014 12:26pm

Will do. Reading up on the keto diet I'm not sure I want to drop the carbs if I'm still training. Usually incresae carb intake on a hard training day and keep them to a minimum on a non-training day although I've waivered recently. Really want to shed the weight this winter and get back to a good structured diet.

Bambaata · 29-08-2014 3:40pm

pprendeville wrote: »

Will do. Reading up on the keto diet I'm not sure I want to drop the carbs if I'm still training. Usually incresae carb intake on a hard training day and keep them to a minimum on a non-training day although I've waivered recently. Really want to shed the weight this winter and get back to a good structured diet.

Interested in people opinions in this as its the one area of the LCHF diet im not so sure about

kennyb3 · 01-09-2014 2:49pm

I know a few here are southside based, a friend of mine runs his own farm and sells free range bacon, sausages, chops & roasts at the Marley market on a Saturday/morning afternoon.

The breakfast sausages in particular are amazing and great value at €10 for 3 packs (about 16 sausages).

AstraMonti · 01-09-2014 4:50pm

How much is the bacon because I am paying ridiculous amount in avoca for good bacon.

kennyb3 · 01-09-2014 4:59pm

AstraMonti wrote: »

How much is the bacon because I am paying ridiculous amount in avoca for good bacon.

€4 a pack - about 7 slices of decently cut pieces for that, nice thick fat layer usually too. I'm sure you can haggle too. I usually buy in bulk and do a deal.

Bambaata · 01-09-2014 5:11pm

kennyb3 wrote: »

€4 a pack - about 7 slices of decently cut pieces for that, nice thick fat layer usually too. I'm sure you can haggle too. I usually buy in bulk and do a deal.

boards.ie bulk order?!

kennyb3 · 01-09-2014 8:08pm

Bambaata wrote: »

boards.ie bulk order?!

Be funny if a spin full of boardies rocked up!

AstraMonti · 05-09-2014 2:29pm

http://sciencealert.com.au/news/20140309-26117.html

AstraMonti · 09-09-2014 3:20pm

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/25194158

AstraMonti · 18-09-2014 6:03pm

few months later my bloods..

cholesterol: 4.7
tri: 1.12
HDL: 1.59
LDL: 2.6

ford2600 · 18-09-2014 6:27pm

AstraMonti wrote: »

few months later my bloods..

cholesterol: 4.7
tri: 1.12
HDL: 1.59
LDL: 2.6

Pretty significant change? Diet similar?
Tc down a lot
Tri have doubled almost?
HDL down a lot
LDL down a lot

From what I've read(excluding McKendrick who says it doesn't really matter at all!) oxidised LDL and LDL particle count/number are best predictors

Must check my own again soon

AstraMonti · 18-09-2014 6:49pm

Yeap.. sugar, have been really bad with it lately and generally due to the new family arrival I haven't been able to keep a strict lchf diet. Funny enough the gp I did these bloods thought I am now healthier than with the high cholesterol. I just smiled and left.

Btw.. http://www.newscientist.com/article/mg22329872.600-artificial-sweeteners-linked-to-glucose-intolerance.html

Granolite · 19-09-2014 10:34am

Good link Astramonti...

The concluding quote from the one of the researcher's really makes you wonder if the present level of incidence of diabetes in the general westernised population just the tip of the iceberg versus what it could become..

quote:

``We are by no means thinking that based on this study we could deduce direct recommendations for artificial-sweetener consumption," says Elinav. "We want to be very cautious about that. But the fact that we could induce glucose intolerance at a level that corresponds to a metabolic disease in five days should at the very least be a call for government agencies to reassess the unsupervised use of artificial sweeteners''.

petethedrummer · 23-09-2014 11:58am

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cG2krftM2eQ

ford2600 · 23-09-2014 12:22pm

petethedrummer wrote: »

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cG2krftM2eQ

And what are the Jews/Muslims/firemen of the world to do?

doozerie · 23-09-2014 12:45pm

I find myself strangely drawn to the idea of a bacon bowl, but holy god that voiceover doesn’t half make me want to throw myself from a tall building.

I thought that my turbo trainer could never be equalled as a means of making a short period of time feel like it’s going on f o r e v e r but a 20 minute interval would have been easier to bear than 1 minute of that video.

petethedrummer · 23-09-2014 1:09pm

ford2600 wrote: »

And what are the Jews/Muslims/firemen of the world to do?

Dominos Pasta Bread Bowl

AstraMonti · 25-09-2014 12:52pm

The potato only diet

http://wholehealthsource.blogspot.gr/2012/12/the-potato-diet.html

ford2600 · 25-09-2014 2:11pm

AstraMonti wrote: »

The potato only diet

http://wholehealthsource.blogspot.gr/2012/12/the-potato-diet.html

There is also a post on that blog about some native tribe who's diet was 80% plus carbohydrate. Interesting enough writer

Just after sausage and tripe casserole. Traditional wsy of cooking tripe in Cork is with onions and milk I believe. Madrid style is really nice.

Drisheen (beef blood sausage) without the oarmeal and spices etc is mank

doozerie · 30-09-2014 4:17pm

I’m cranky today, and that sets the tone for this post.

I just followed a link from Wiggle to this nutrition guide by High5. They are obviously in the business of selling their products so they’ll emphasise how “vital” those products are to you, but I’m still a bit taken aback by what I would consider misinformation in that guide. It’s arguably subtle enough but phrases like “[fat fuel] is not designed for performance” and “You can lose 1 litre of fluid for every hour that you exercise”, while perhaps strictly true, seem designed to reinforce such misconceptions as you need to consume almost exclusively carbs when exercising and that your volume of fluid intake needs to be around that mythical figure of 1L per hour.

Out of curiosity, I briefly looked at their “Advanced nutrition guide for stronger sportive” and it suggests a breakfast of the usual high carb foods (cereals, porridge, etc.), plus a 750ml bottle of High5 (to “Caffeine Load”), plus a High gel (or 2, or 3, depending on your weight). For during the event they suggest that “you could comfortably drink up to 1000ml per hour” in warm/hot conditions, but if it is cooler you might drink less “and you will need to boost [your carbohydrate intake] with gel”. Each to their own, but that volume of consumption would be physically beyond me, yet High5 would like me to believe that it’s somehow perfectly normal (even in my high carb days I’d never have consumed as much as that), if not necessary.

I do actually use High5 products. I’m a fan of their (chocolate) protein recovery shakes, though once I’ve worked my way through my current stock of it I probably won’t get it again (I’m going to try a “pure” protein shake plus fruit or fruit juice immediately after a ride instead - just as convenient and quick but potentially “better” and would give me more control over nutrient portions). I also use High5 4:1 energy drink for races. I’m not a fan of their marketing blurb though, and it annoys me more over time. I’m afraid to look at High5’s guide to racing nutrition.

I’ve been on a LCHF diet now for a little over 9 months and during that time I’ve cut my daily carb intake by more, and perhaps far more, than half. I’ve also learned that I can ride my bike without having to essentially attach a nosebag of food for the duration of every ride. I learned that early enough in the diet by heading out for a 3.5hr ride and ignoring the hunger pangs that kicked in early on. A week or two later I headed out without any breakfast and ignored the hunger pangs again. I didn’t die, I didn’t bonk, and my average speed was on a par with what it would typically be if I were grazing for the entire ride. That was quite a surprise for me, while I would always have been sceptical about the likes of the info that High5 spout above, I was always convinced that I didn’t have enough fuel available within my skinny body to do more than get me up a flight of stairs before having to refuel. The likes of High5’s blurb feeds on that uncertainty, I suppose you could say.

Anyway, I was intimidated by the prospect of racing on this diet. Training on it was fine but the level of intensity of a race is a different matter, I expected. I read various positive online anecdotes from some notable riders but I’m no more than an average rider and I wasn’t convinced that it would work so well for me. I’ve been racing A4 this year, so the races have generally been not much more than 2 hours long, and usually less. To my surprise this diet has worked very well for me. In the hours leading up to a race I’d eat low-carb food as usual, but shortly (about 10 minutes maybe) before each race I ate a banana. During the races I ate nothing, but I sipped on High5 4:1 every now and again in the latter half of the race - usually if I drank anything during the first hour it would be only water. On average I drank between 100ml and 200ml of High5 during a race, and some of that I consumed simply due to the nagging fear that the inevitable bonk was on the horizon. I never felt hungry, I never bonked. I was even competitive in some of those races so I would say I was never short of carbs.

Of course, I may simply have been depleting my glycogen stores during a race, and perhaps I was starving my body of the more readily accessible fuel it craved. I can’t say for sure, maybe a longer race would confirm that one way or the other, but I generally finished the races feeling relatively strong so I had no sense of an impending energy crash. I didn’t earn enough points to upgrade to A3 this year, maybe I’ll get them next year and then I can put this approach to racing to the test in the longer and faster challenge that an A3 race poses. Not that I found A4 racing easy, quite the contrary, but I suspect that A3 will be so far beyond my comfort zone that I’ll quickly show up any deficiencies in my diet and my approach to nutrition on the bike, amongst other things. Apologies in advance to High5 though, I won’t be hooking up a trailer containing litres of fluid plus boxes of gels to my bike, I’ll take my chances, thanks!

doozerie · 30-09-2014 4:25pm

ford2600 wrote:

Traditional wsy of cooking tripe in Cork is with onions and milk I believe.

That’s certainly what I grew up with. It’s not a meal that my siblings and I greeted with enthusiasm, but it was feckin’ lovely compared to drisheen!

ford2600 wrote:

Drisheen (beef blood sausage) without the oarmeal and spices etc is mank

If I never see drisheen again it’ll be too soon. It was not appetising before it was cooked, the site of this grey steaming “yoke” being lifted out of a bowl of boiling water did nothing to endear itself to me either. Even closing your eyes when eating it was a lost cause ‘cos drisheen is the very definition of texture hell so the inside of your mouth screams silently as it encounters every spoonful. I probably still need counselling to come to terms with it all.

petethedrummer · 30-09-2014 5:13pm

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Tbxq0IDqD04

petethedrummer · 30-09-2014 5:22pm

doozerie wrote: »

I’m a fan of their (chocolate) protein recovery shakes, though once I’ve worked my way through my current stock of it I probably won’t get it again.

Just get cheap chocolate milk from the supermarket.

The surprisingly revitalising qualities of chocolate milk were only discovered by accident. A scientific study looking at the best beverages for post-exercise rehydration was supposed to pit the finest electrolyte sports drinks on the market against each other. Nine elite cyclists were taken through a series of glycogen-depleting exercises, consuming various recovery drinks in between, while a handful were given just milk as a control to gauge the relative benefits of each drink. But in an unexpected twist, the cyclists on milk outperformed their rivals by a considerable margin.
http://www.theguardian.com/lifeandstyle/the-running-blog/2014/jul/09/secret-powers-chocolate-milk-mo-farah-runners

doozerie · 01-10-2014 12:44am

petethedrummer wrote: »

Just get cheap chocolate milk from the supermarket.

I've seen that suggested before but when I looked at the ingredients list of some brand or other of chocolate milk in a supermarket I was not impressed. Take Tesco's own brand for example with its stabilisers and sugars (sugars are a good thing after training, of course, but I'd prefer getting them directly from fruit instead).

Chocolate milk also doesn't keep as easily or as long as powdered options so loses out on convenience. The cost difference isn't huge either, depending on which products you use.

All in all I think that going for milk/water, powdered whey protein, and fruit juice or solid fruit, after a ride will be a better bet for me. I will miss the taste of the (chocolate) High5 protein recovery though!

DaithiMC · 01-10-2014 10:02am

doozerie wrote: »

Anyway, I was intimidated by the prospect of racing on this diet. Training on it was fine but the level of intensity of a race is a different matter, I expected. I read various positive online anecdotes from some notable riders but I’m no more than an average rider and I wasn’t convinced that it would work so well for me. I’ve been racing A4 this year, so the races have generally been not much more than 2 hours long, and usually less. To my surprise this diet has worked very well for me. In the hours leading up to a race I’d eat low-carb food as usual, but shortly (about 10 minutes maybe) before each race I ate a banana. During the races I ate nothing, but I sipped on High5 4:1 every now and again in the latter half of the race - usually if I drank anything during the first hour it would be only water. On average I drank between 100ml and 200ml of High5 during a race, and some of that I consumed simply due to the nagging fear that the inevitable bonk was on the horizon. I never felt hungry, I never bonked. I was even competitive in some of those races so I would say I was never short of carbs.

Of course, I may simply have been depleting my glycogen stores during a race, and perhaps I was starving my body of the more readily accessible fuel it craved. I can’t say for sure, maybe a longer race would confirm that one way or the other, but I generally finished the races feeling relatively strong so I had no sense of an impending energy crash. I didn’t earn enough points to upgrade to A3 this year, maybe I’ll get them next year and then I can put this approach to racing to the test in the longer and faster challenge that an A3 race poses. Not that I found A4 racing easy, quite the contrary, but I suspect that A3 will be so far beyond my comfort zone that I’ll quickly show up any deficiencies in my diet and my approach to nutrition on the bike, amongst other things. Apologies in advance to High5 though, I won’t be hooking up a trailer containing litres of fluid plus boxes of gels to my bike, I’ll take my chances, thanks!

I have not got to the racing (yet!) but I have been observing my limits by experimenting this year with fasted training as I wanted to build my endurance base and I found (probably expected) that I am ok to do a fasted ride up to as much as 100km once the effort only periodically goes beyond my maximum sustainable level (as quantified by HR) but the times I bonked I noted that I had gone beyond the maximum for more than 45-50% of the spin. Given that 100km is 3-4 hours depending on pace for me I consider that I wouldn't usually go without food for more than 4 hours under normal circumstances so I don't push it beyond that.

I do agree with the idea that all you need on a spin is carbs and for convenience I have a pocket full of dates with me but as most of my spins are in relatively civilized areas I am never too far from somewhere I can get cake or fruit so I have reduced what I carry now, food-wise to almost nothing. If I am out on my own in unfamiliar territory I do keep an emergency stash of 3-4 glucose (lucozade) tablets.

There is a threshold of anticipation I had to get over though, the "culture" of having to bring food with you is really embedded deeply so I don't tend to share my approach with others because of the "concern" it is usually greeted with! I also find it tough to experiment because as I record most of my longer spins, I don't want to "tarnish" my record (which is primarily about PB's) - damn you Strava!

Inquitus · 02-10-2014 9:55pm

doozerie wrote: »

SNIP

I eat carbs as part of my day to day diet, but often race or train for 80-130km+ without eating anything from waking til race end. I don't see a correlation between the LCHF diet or a normal diet, and the need to eat before or during races or long spins. I generally get through less than 750ml of MiWadi in a race unless it's very warm in which case I might bring 2 bottles of same.

doozerie · 02-10-2014 10:24pm

Inquitus wrote: »

I don't see a correlation between the LCHF diet or a normal diet, and the need to eat before or during races or long spins.

There may be no correlation at all in reality but certainly, for me, when I ate lots more carbs I constantly felt the need to eat both on and off the bike. Some of that was certainly psychological (I always seemed to burn off food fast and, probably irrationally, felt that bonking was never far away), but some of it was also certainly me trying to combat the constant energy peaks and troughs that resulted directly from the content and frequency of what I was eating.

So essentially my high-carb diet fed (ha!) my desire, and possibly need, to eat more often. Being on a low-carb diet hasn't entirely eliminated my inclinations to graze at times but these days those inclinations are motivated by something (tastebuds, habit, etc.) other than a sense of impending energy crash.

ford2600 · 03-10-2014 8:17am

Inquitus wrote: »

I eat carbs as part of my day to day diet, but often race or train for 80-130km+ without eating anything from waking til race end. I don't see a correlation between the LCHF diet or a normal diet, and the need to eat before or during races or long spins. I generally get through less than 750ml of MiWadi in a race unless it's very warm in which case I might bring 2 bottles of same.

I was going to post something similar.

I've gone from always feeding myself on bike or before getting on bike to never considering food on anything under 200km after breakfast to 130km fasted.

While this has coincided with LCHF diet change, I believe in retrospect most of the adaptation has come from
*fasted training
* Intermittent fasting on non training days(not planned just don't eat breakfast most days for convenience and generally don't eat from 8-9pm to 1pm)
* Confidence built gradually that I won't bonk

Over a year I've come across many guys who eat "normally" who don't eat that much either when cycling long distance. There is a lad who posts occassionally on this forum who did a 400km solo ride, lumpy as hell, at a good pace with very little food. He is a proper cyclist however!

From reading Barry Murray, he believes that any top endurance athlete will as a result of their training be fat adapted irrespective of macro breakdown. I also remember reading of a RAAM winner in the 1980's cycling 170 odd miles without food for a bet.

@Inquitus I'm guessing your carb quality is quite good? Fruit, veg, beans, lentils, brown rice etc rather than processed junk?

I've added more carbs occasionally lately(often in social situations) and haven't noticed any great change in energy levels. The quality of food is good generally. My home grown apple crumble with greek yoghurt is a new vice(crumble is just porridge oats, plenty butter, almond flour, tiny shake of table sugar on apples and crumble) Adding wild blackberries is a nice touch too!

After over 12 months plus experimenting and reading a massive amount the only food advice most people need IMHO is"just eat real food, with plenty plants and a preference for vegetables".

doozerie · 03-10-2014 11:46am

ford2600 wrote:

I’ve added more carbs occasionally lately(often in social situations) and haven't noticed any great change in energy levels.

I keep track of my nutrient breakdown each day and have been doing so since I started on this diet. Over time the use I’ve made of this data has varied, sometimes I record it just to satisfy my curiosity, sometimes I record it to help inform decisions about what I’ll eat during the rest of the day, etc. More recently I’ve been trying to use it to determine at what levels of daily carb (and protein) intake I hit “issues”.

My first challenge is to define what constitutes an “issue”. I find that a challenge still. Overall I find that everything (energy levels, appetite, performance on the bike, etc.) is just more regular on an LCHF diet whereas my perception/memory of being on a high carb diet is of significant fluctuations in various of those measures during the course of a day. It’s all a bit hand-wavy though, I struggle to factor in arguably external influences like stress, lack of adequate sleep, etc., so when I’m comparing the effects of my high-carb and low-carb diets I’m probably biasing the comparison in favour of low-carb to a certain extent simply because it’s what I’m currently focused on and I like it.

There is one measure/effect that I’m convinced beyond doubt differs between the two diets though. I recall as a teen reading a cycling training book that had been written a few years earlier, in the late 70’s. The book touched briefly on the topic of diet. Whatever about the general interest in diet at the time, the author of this book, a professional US cyclist, had what I recall as a very forthright view which he conveyed by a glib statement something along the lines of: “Some cyclists are vegetarians. They are always to be found either in the kitchen, or in the toilet!” - he wasn’t exactly one to embrace differing views on diet then

I reckon that same broad generalisation could be used to describe my experience of being on a high-carb diet.

Basically, beyond a certain level of carb (and/or protein, perhaps) intake, my system treats carbs (and protein?) as brief visitors just quickly passing through, so to speak, fat tends to be the friendly sort of nutrient that stays the night and perhaps longer. So there is my highly scientific summary of my own digestive system’s relationship with different nutrients - carbs are at best casual acquaintances that don’t hang around for long, fat is a good friend that lingers, protein is the slightly unpredictable one who is your best friend one minute and your greatest enemy the next and you never know which mode it is likely to be in. :pac:

rollingscone · 04-10-2014 2:16pm

@ford the content of my diet hasn't changed since I started cycling but since being inspired by one of your posts to start cycling without sny special fueling I've noticed several benefits aside from the obvious of getting out of the house sooner, the most prominent one for me is that I feel less hungry subsequent to the spin and I feel like I'm also recovering better.

My pet theory is that my body is relearning realistic resource usage.

ford2600 · 04-10-2014 6:37pm

rollingscone wrote: »

@ford the content of my diet hasn't changed since I started cycling but since being inspired by one of your posts to start cycling without sny special fueling I've noticed several benefits aside from the obvious of getting out of the house sooner, the most prominent one for me is that I feel less hungry subsequent to the spin and I feel like I'm also recovering better.

My pet theory is that my body is relearning realistic resource usage.

My own interest in utilising fat as much as possible started after a trip to Africa where the locals sniggered at my regular questions on when the next feed was. They generally ate once a day; they for most part were not poor and had ample resources for food.

Also on some thread were an OP was enquiring on food strategy's, a one liner comment from @lumen to "train your body to burn fat" raised my curiosity, and the obsession started!

MediaMan · 06-10-2014 11:20pm

rollingscone wrote: »

@ford the content of my diet hasn't changed since I started cycling but since being inspired by one of your posts to start cycling without sny special fueling I've noticed several benefits aside from the obvious of getting out of the house sooner, the most prominent one for me is that I feel less hungry subsequent to the spin and I feel like I'm also recovering better.

My pet theory is that my body is relearning realistic resource usage.

On this topic of fueling and recovery... I've been following what I would called a "Half-arsed Paleo diet" for the past while, meaning wholefood based as much as possible, plenty of fat and protein, with lower than normal but not low carb. Also very little white carbs. In general I've found it great and, also having done some fasted training early on in the year, I find that I can cycle up to 100k or so at a decent pace without eating very much before or during. I recently started reading the Paleo Diet for Athletes (by Friel and Cordain) and I see that they emphasise very much that you should eat carbs before and during workouts. Otherwise, according to the book, as glycogen runs low, your body will start breaking down muscle for energy, resulting in longer recovery times etc. In fact the authors recommend in a sample scenario, that an athlete have a couple of gels 10 mins before exercise, and sports drink during it, which surprised me.

That got me thinking, as I found while training for long events this summer past, that I built up an accumulation of muscle fatigue that was hard to shake. I know that to analyse my specific situation would need a lot of detail which I'm not providing here, but want to ask instead what people think in general of the need to consume carbs before and during exercise at levels that would include a mix of threshold and endurance work. I'm particularly interested in the aspect of speed and completeness of recovery.

I definitely was doing something wrong, and I don't think I was overdoing the training, so am wondering about the diet aspects.

ford2600 · 07-10-2014 11:43am

@mediaman I don't think anyone can satisfactorily answer your question on here.

There are so many variables "an answer" would just be guess work.

While I'm very interested in food and diet, it's role in health and performance is seen as a one
stop shop. How are your stress levels, sleep, work, etc etc. (I don't want answers!!)

Your eating mainly whole foods, your probably 99% there. Plug a few days diet into cronometer with your activity etc and you'll get an idea of any micronutrient deficiency.

Low carb works for me doing a particular type of cycling. Other guys out perform me and don't give diet a thought.

Play around with diet and timing of carbs, especially after training has certainly helped me but again may not for you.

Just because some respected author said you should do something doesn't mean it's optimum for you. You know yourself best, experiment and figure it out.

On fatigue, on the June and August Bank Holidays I did 3 days of long distance. In June 320, 320, 120. I did the last 100km of day 2 and all of day 3 on no food, including Conor Pass and about 4hrs sleep.

There was no fatigue issue. I felt way better on day 3 fasted than day 2 with breakfast.

According to Volek, Pinney, Attia, etc it was because of x y & z. According to Friel and my gp etc I'm telling lies!

I don't know or care why.

Just on whole foods you wouldn't be the first fella to not add adequate salt to your diet. If you eat junk they add the salt for free!

As Avon said to Stringer Bell "ain't nothing as expensive as free"

Best of luck. Keep some salt for this thread we are all just anonymous eejits on the Internet!

ryan_sherlock · 07-10-2014 3:36pm

MediaMan wrote: »

I recently started reading the Paleo Diet for Athletes (by Friel and Cordain) and I see that they emphasise very much that you should eat carbs before and during workouts. Otherwise, according to the book, as glycogen runs low, your body will start breaking down muscle for energy, resulting in longer recovery times etc. In fact the authors recommend in a sample scenario, that an athlete have a couple of gels 10 mins before exercise, and sports drink during it, which surprised me.

Which version (when was it published) - both authors have come out and said a bunch of what they had in that book they now believe to be wrong (i.e. back then they were against fatty meat cuts, saturated fat etc... and promoting polyunsaturated).

petethedrummer · 07-10-2014 4:09pm

ryan_sherlock wrote: »

Which version (when was it published) - both authors have come out and said a bunch of what they had in that book they now believe to be wrong (i.e. back then they were against fatty meat cuts, saturated fat etc... and promoting polyunsaturated).

Most of what I've heard from Joe Friel on the subject pertains to weight loss/maintenance. Not sure if he has said anything about recovery or performance.

Joe Friel: http://www.joefrielsblog.com/2013/08/aging-my-race-weight.html

MediaMan · 08-10-2014 1:31pm

ford2600 wrote: »

@mediaman I don't think anyone can satisfactorily answer your question on here.

Yes, agreed. I'm really looking to hear of other people's experiences with regard to diet vs. recovery and fatigue. Your experience of the multi-day cycles is very interesting.

ryan_sherlock wrote: »

Which version (when was it published) - both authors have come out and said a bunch of what they had in that book they now believe to be wrong (i.e. back then they were against fatty meat cuts, saturated fat etc... and promoting polyunsaturated).

I'm reading the updated edition (2012). They've rowed back their recommendation reservations on fatty meats a bit, but still have some. Their main remaining reservation about fatty meat now is that for intensively reared stock, the fat is high in omega-6 as they are exclusively grain-fed. This I guess is a lot more relevant to meat produced in the USA than here, but who knows what in some of the meat that's imported into Ireland. There is other advice around fats, recommending avocados, nuts, seeds, etc., which I guess is good. There recommendation for carb intake before, during and after workouts is separate from the overall carb/fat/protein balance and recommend foods during other non-workout times.

petethedrummer wrote: »

Most of what I've heard from Joe Friel on the subject pertains to weight loss/maintenance. Not sure if he has said anything about recovery or performance.

Joe Friel: http://www.joefrielsblog.com/2013/08/aging-my-race-weight.html

In this book, they do talk a lot about this. For example in Chapter 3 (Eating during exercise), page 39, they say:

Especially for longer events in this range [90-minute to 4-hour events], using sports drinks and gels instead of only water has the added advantage of limiting muscle damage.

And there's plenty more where that came from.

Overall I'm coming around to the view that for my case the muscle fatigue was not due to diet, or what I took on during spins, except maybe to a small extent. I will look at my overall food and nutrient balance as suggested to make sure there are not any glaring imbalances. I expect that the more likely explanation is a pretty high training load over several months, without enough attention to stretching, flexibility and such things.

Thanks for the inputs!

TheBlaaMan · 09-10-2014 10:10pm

This seems like good common sense.............something that is absent from a lot of the discussions where folks take one side or the other.
http://www.stickybottle.com/coaching/coaching-can-cyclists-improve-and-lose-weight-on-low-carb-high-fat-diets/

davmol · 10-10-2014 2:33pm

Id like to know peoples opinion on maintaining or increasing muscle mass during distances of crica 100km/150km?

I have been cycling for a while but more so as a hobby with friends.I am trying to bulk up a bit but find muscle increase and long endurance to be mutually exclusive.

Ive tried LCHF and it works for me but obviously i need to increase my protein to build and maintain muscle mass.

I breezed through this thread whcih i found very interesting and remember posts detailing alot of deadlifts and squats?So i wanted to find out the OPs thoughts on whther he increased muscle while increasing weight and how he maintained on a consistent diet?

ryan_sherlock · 10-10-2014 2:58pm

davmol wrote: »

Id like to know peoples opinion on maintaining or increasing muscle mass during distances of crica 100km/150km?

I have been cycling for a while but more so as a hobby with friends.I am trying to bulk up a bit but find muscle increase and long endurance to be mutually exclusive.

Ive tried LCHF and it works for me but obviously i need to increase my protein to build and maintain muscle mass.

I breezed through this thread whcih i found very interesting and remember posts detailing alot of deadlifts and squats?So i wanted to find out the OPs thoughts on whther he increased muscle while increasing weight and how he maintained on a consistent diet?

I can confirm that it is pretty straight forward to put on muscle mass with this style of eating and doing chronic cardio (15-30hr weeks on the bike). Eat more is the usual take away if you want to put on muscle... In 2014, I have hit power PBs on the bike from 1sec -> 10 minutes (I have really tested anything longer 'full gas' so they may have gone up too - the sub 1 minute efforts show the gain in muscle). My weight went up by about 2-2.5kg but body fat percentage remained the same. I went through some old racing photos (2010) - jeeez - road racing (as opposed to mountain bike racing) makes your legs get a LOT bigger (or maybe it is the style of racing in Belgium I was doing).

In other news (and I hope it is okay to put this into a post) - Barry (http://www.optimumnutrition4sport.com/) and I will be doing another talk in Dublin probably on November 5th. We will have details soon for those interested.

ryan_sherlock · 11-10-2014 6:40pm

For those interested, < 15g carbs total in last 2.5 days (weight dropped by 2kg so am assuming very glycogen low) and rode around this: http://app.strava.com/activities/206024166

Never pushing it, just riding along. Steak and eggs for breakfast, water during.

It is my 'off-season' but the weather was too nice

ryan_sherlock · 20-10-2014 10:20am

Related to this whole discussion, Barry and I are running another seminar on November 4th in Dublin: tinyurl.com/healthnov14

Barry has been working with various World Tour riders (and world class triathletes, runners) and our understanding on how LCHF type diets relate to performance at the top level of the sport has evolved. It is not all about having <50g of carbs/day (actually, as a cyclist, it is seldom like that)

Drop me a message if you have any questions.

pprendeville · 23-10-2014 3:44pm

Anyone know of an app/website that provides daily recipes by carb/fat/protein content? I know there's cookbooks and millions of websites but sometimes the amount of variety can lead to being overwhelmed, for me anyway. Would be nice if there was something that provided you with just one recipe daily (direct to your inbox or generated by the app) for ones main meal which could be tailored to suit ones needs, LCHF for example.

petethedrummer · 24-10-2014 12:33am

pprendeville wrote: »

Anyone know of an app/website that provides daily recipes by carb/fat/protein content? I know there's cookbooks and millions of websites but sometimes the amount of variety can lead to being overwhelmed, for me anyway. Would be nice if there was something that provided you with just one recipe daily (direct to your inbox or generated by the app) for ones main meal which could be tailored to suit ones needs, LCHF for example.

So you want the LCHF equivalent of Weight watchers or dietchef?

A boat full of carbs

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