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Comreg Consultation - MMDS Licences to be extended by 2 years until Apr 2016

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    #2
    watty
    Registered Users Posts: 32,417 ✭✭✭✭watty


    Comreg has commenced a 2 month consulatation on renewing the existing MMDS licences for an interim 2 year period from Apr 2014 to Apr 2016 in order to prepare for the release of the entire 2.6GHz band on a service and technology neutral basis after that date.

    Translated:
    Comreg has decided already that they will let UPC keep paying for MMDS licence till they can flog the spectrum to Mobile Operators.

    There isn't enough spectrum to do pay TV AND decent data speeds. Fixed Wireless Broadband operators can't compete for spectrum with Mobile Operators while mobile is allowed to continue cross subsidy of Data with Voice (costs 150x less per revenue) and SMS (Costs nearly nothing).


    Comreg consultations are mostly designed too strict parameters so as to deliberately give the answer they want.


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    #3
    Sponge Bob
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 25,234 ✭✭✭✭Sponge Bob


    UPC had 67000 customers in Q3 2010 and 48000 in Q3 2012. Subscriber numbers are declining by around 10k a year. This means that Cormeg are proposing to lock up 200mhz for 2 years and for what is likely to be a tad over 30k customers ( and less than 2% of Households) in April 2014 and likely to be less than 15k or 1% of Households upon eventual expiry in 2016.

    Comreg have NO IDEA about the extent of Freesat usage today, they only count Sky subscribers. It is well north of 50k Households I should think. :(

    That is utterly pointless. Most of the channels are free on satellite anyway as are HD versions ......HD being something MMDS cannot handle.


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    #4
    The Cush
    Registered Users Posts: 15,481 ✭✭✭✭The Cush


    All MMDS licences will expire at midnight on 18 April 2016.

    MMDS services will continue to have exclusive use of the spectrum until licences expire in 2016.

    The new rights of use to 2.6 GHz spectrum would be made available on a service and technology neutral basis.

    Following an auction process any new licence holder could distribute television programming content, subject to complying with the relevant technical conditions.

    http://www.comreg.ie/publications/response_to_consultation_and_final_decision_on_proposal_to_renew_the_existing_mmds_licences_from_19_april_2014_to_18_april_2016.583.104333.p.html

    MMDS Subscribers (Dec 31, 2012) - 45,600, down 2,300 since the end of Sept 2012 and 9,400 in 12 months.


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    #5
    kooga
    Registered Users Posts: 2,882 ✭✭✭kooga


    Sponge Bob wrote: »
    UPC had 67000 customers in Q3 2010 and 48000 in Q3 2012. Subscriber numbers are declining by around 10k a year. This means that Cormeg are proposing to lock up 200mhz for 2 years and for what is likely to be a tad over 30k customers ( and less than 2% of Households) in April 2014 and likely to be less than 15k or 1% of Households upon eventual expiry in 2016.

    Comreg have NO IDEA about the extent of Freesat usage today, they only count Sky subscribers. It is well north of 50k Households I should think. :(

    That is utterly pointless. Most of the channels are free on satellite anyway as are HD versions ......HD being something MMDS cannot handle.

    I was an upc mds subscriber in cork city centre, couldn't get cable and then last august the sub went up citing major spend on investment, where? not for me so gave my months notice and walked away!! so glad i did 7 months on quite happy with my como set up......whatever about freeview/freesat/ combo V sky or cable it blows mds out of the water. Think about it 33.50 a month plus 3.75 non dd charge get real!!


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    #6
    Sponge Bob
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 25,234 ✭✭✭✭Sponge Bob


    I suspect that a scrape of the TV spectrum above 694mhz ( ch 48 to ch60) will take place starting to clear from late next year and that 100mhz of so from 694mhz will be bundled with the 2.5ghz band in an auction to take place in late 2015 ....that and a smidge or two around 900mhz and 1800mhz I should think.


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    #7
    The Cush
    Registered Users Posts: 15,481 ✭✭✭✭The Cush


    Sponge Bob wrote: »
    I suspect that a scrape of the TV spectrum above 694mhz ( ch 48 to ch60) will take place starting to clear from late next year and that 100mhz of so from 694mhz will be bundled with the 2.5ghz band in an auction to take place in late 2015 ....that and a smidge or two around 900mhz and 1800mhz I should think.

    Comreg begins the process for the release of UHF channels 49-60 within the next 3 months with a call for inputs for the second digital dividend. The release of this band probably won't happen prior to WRC2015 as it's on the agenda for that conference with a possible release closer to 2018.

    Comreg are also expected to consult on the release of further capacity including the 2.6GHz band within the coming months.

    Any spare 900/1800 capacity was auctioned off last year with a licence expiry date of 2030. Is there any redundant spectrum ramaining around there?


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    #8
    Sponge Bob
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 25,234 ✭✭✭✭Sponge Bob


    The Cush wrote: »
    Any spare 900/1800 capacity was auctioned off last year with a licence expiry date of 2030. Is there any redundant spectrum ramaining around there?

    I think there are a few smidges, nothing serious. That railway GSM block that CIE never used ( unless they have a bit of it in use in Dublin by now) is one example and also this lot > http://www.comreg.ie/publications/wideband_digital_mobile_data_services_in_the_420mhz_and_900_mhz_bands.673.101868.p.html

    The other large block probably to be bundled in and auctioned with that lot above is the 2300mhz band. It is used rarely by eircom for crap landline substitute tech in the west only and for civil servants to watch oireachtas broadcasts in Dublin and is otherwise unused nationally.

    2300mhz may be auctioned separately before MMDS is, half the MMDS band could have been auctioned last time out ( 2600-2690) as it has lain empty for around 10 years. :(


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    #9
    The Cush
    Registered Users Posts: 15,481 ✭✭✭✭The Cush


    Sponge Bob wrote: »
    I think there are a few smidges, nothing serious. That railway GSM block that CIE never used ( unless they have a bit of it in use in Dublin by now) is one example and also this lot > http://www.comreg.ie/publications/wideband_digital_mobile_data_services_in_the_420mhz_and_900_mhz_bands.673.101868.p.html

    The Wideband Digital Mobile Data Services 10 years licences should be up for renewal about the same time the MMDS licences will be auctioned.

    As regards the Railway GSM licences Comreg said the following in late 2011
    Having carefully considered the views of interested parties on its proposals as set out in Information Notice 10/84, and for the reasons set out in Information Notice 10/84 and in this document, ComReg intends to proceed and develop the GSM-R licensing regime in accordance with the specific details outlined

    Sponge Bob wrote: »
    half the MMDS band could have been auctioned last time out ( 2600-2690) as it has lain empty for around 10 years

    MMDS Channels 1-22 (and channel 23 once upon a time) were used for analogue/digital MMDS until 2005, channels 4-21 continue to be used for digital MMDS. The only spare capacity here is Channels 1-3 (24MHz), 22-23 (16MHz) + (6MHz) = 46MHz.

    4g3mea.jpg


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    #10
    Sponge Bob
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 25,234 ✭✭✭✭Sponge Bob


    Thanks Cush, I think that is the Chorus bandplan (most of the state) and I referred to the NTL MMDS bandplan when I said the higher block was clear.

    The 10 year licences are unused, Digiweb got one but could not source equipment after 2 years as manufacturers switched to LTE from proto OFDM tech around 4 years back. The others never launched at all. They are squatting in effect as is CIE.

    But my main point stands, MMDS is a dreadful waste of spectrum and it should have been obsoleted and fully cleared in April 2014.

    The only effect will be to delay necessary cable system upgrades by two years as UPC continute to charge people an extortionate €40 a month for MMDS packages on their 'cable' across the midlands.


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    #11
    The Cush
    Registered Users Posts: 15,481 ✭✭✭✭The Cush


    Sponge Bob wrote: »
    I think that is the Chorus bandplan (most of the state) and I referred to the NTL MMDS bandplan when I said the higher block was clear.

    It's the national channel plan for both Chorus and ntl licences and has been part of Comreg's analogue and digital MMDS technical conditions since 1998. All areas use frequencies from across the full band

    oieov9.jpg

    2n8ssgm.jpg

    2z59cgg.jpg


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    #12
    The Cush
    Registered Users Posts: 15,481 ✭✭✭✭The Cush


    The Cush wrote: »
    http://www.comreg.ie/publications/response_to_consultation_and_final_decision_on_proposal_to_renew_the_existing_mmds_licences_from_19_april_2014_to_18_april_2016.583.104333.p.html

    MMDS Subscribers (Dec 31, 2012) - 45,600, down 2,300 since the end of Sept 2012 and 9,400 in 12 months.

    A further drop of 1,700 MMDS subscribers at the end of Q1 2013 to 43,900.


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    #13
    Charlie-Bravo
    Registered Users Posts: 5,619 ✭✭✭Charlie-Bravo


    Do UPC care about losing so many MMDS customers? At this rate they're be better off turning off the equipment and not having to maintain it?!

    I based in Greystones and on a hybrid system of MMDS TV with fibre broadband. The TV channel line-up is stripped down with no HD channels whatsoever. I note above that MMDS won't take HD easily. From speaking to a UPC technician a while back he said they need more bandwidth to do HD. My other question would be does the QAM need to be higher - currently at 64 QAM? What's the normal cabled areas bit rate working out as?

    Is there any point in UPC changing the head-end stuff to provide HD for MMDS customers if it can be done on a higher bit rate...again, is there enough bandwidth for the HD content?! Also, their current capacity is questioned as they provide a 'lite' version of channel line-up. Will 4 SD channels use the same amount of space as 1 HD channel (or is it more).

    Pity Comreg didn't just stop the license for 2014 and get UPC to move to an alternate solution sooner rather than dragging it out for the remaining MMDS subscribers!

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    #14
    The Cush
    Registered Users Posts: 15,481 ✭✭✭✭The Cush


    astrofluff wrote: »
    Pity Comreg didn't just stop the license for 2014 and get UPC to move to an alternate solution sooner rather than dragging it out for the remaining MMDS subscribers!

    They probably would've ended the licences in 2014 if the auction process had been in place but with less than 12 months to that deadline there was too little time to arrange the auction, it took over 4 years deal with the mobile spectrum. Easier to let UPC wind down MMDS over the next 3 years while Comeg consult and auction the spectrum.

    There won't be any UPC alternative for rural MMDS subscribers other than Sky or Saorview/Freesat, maybe they'll look again at commercial DTT.


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    #15
    Charlie-Bravo
    Registered Users Posts: 5,619 ✭✭✭Charlie-Bravo


    The whole estate of Charlesland has 1,350 units and when built in 2004/2005, NTL had pre-cabled for TV and its system is fed off MMDS transmitted from Windgates beside Bray head. I suppose my beef is that with so many existing and potential customers, I would have preferred if Comreg had stuck to their date and UPC got their act together and properly cabled-up Greystones to Dublin giving all the services provided there. But now they can sit on their hands on this one for another two years. :rolleyes:

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    #16
    The Cush
    Registered Users Posts: 15,481 ✭✭✭✭The Cush


    Liberty Global, UPC's parent company, may be interested in buying O2 Ireland if/when it comes to market - http://www.independent.ie/business/irish/telefonica-mulls-sale-of-700m-02-as-liberty-looms-29259789.html

    I wonder if they'll be interested in bidding for the released MMDS spectrum.


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    #17
    The Cush
    Registered Users Posts: 15,481 ✭✭✭✭The Cush


    The Cush wrote: »
    A further drop of 1,700 MMDS subscribers at the end of Q1 2013 to 43,900.

    Q2 2012 results show a further drop of 1,900 MMDS subscribers to 42,000.


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    #18
    Charlie-Bravo
    Registered Users Posts: 5,619 ✭✭✭Charlie-Bravo


    I take it you mean Q2 2013 - that's a fair rate of drop in just one quarter. Would like to see a trend graph for the last few years as it sounds like a freefall in figures. MMDS subscribers have been happy with a basic digital setup with SD content for the last few year but now seeing as there is better content with Sky I could see plenty of customers moving across...I'm probably gonna to make the switch to Sky when the contract with UPC runs out. The one thing which annoys me about Sky is their messed up epg layout of channels. Much prefer UPC's ordering of channels.

    -. . ...- . .-. / --. --- -. -. .- / --. .. ...- . / -.-- --- ..- / ..- .--.



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    #19
    The Cush
    Registered Users Posts: 15,481 ✭✭✭✭The Cush


    astrofluff wrote: »
    I take it you mean Q2 2013 - that's a fair rate of drop in just one quarter.

    Typo there alright.
    astrofluff wrote: »
    Would like to see a trend graph for the last few years as it sounds like a freefall in figures.

    Will this do? From a Comreg consultation document.
    2qk4711.jpg

    The graph starts Q4 2005 when the merger of Chorus and ntl Ireland was approved by the CA.

    At the end of that quarter there were 113,900 MMDS subscribers which included 24,700 ntl MMDS subscribers.

    That increased to 115,900 in Q1/06, 115,400 in Q2/06, 117,100 in Q3/06 and peaking at 117,800 at the end of Q4/06. Since then it's been downhill, at the end of 2007 the numbers had dropped to 105,200.

    astrofluff wrote: »
    MMDS subscribers have been happy with a basic digital setup with SD content for the last few year but now seeing as there is better content with Sky I could see plenty of customers moving across...I'm probably gonna to make the switch to Sky when the contract with UPC runs out.

    That reminded me of something I posted a few months ago - http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?p=84636884
    astrofluff wrote: »
    The one thing which annoys me about Sky is their messed up epg layout of channels. Much prefer UPC's ordering of channels.

    What channel numbers are the Irish and UK channels allocated on the UPC (MMDS) epg?


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    #20
    Charlie-Bravo
    Registered Users Posts: 5,619 ✭✭✭Charlie-Bravo


    Cheers for the graph - very steady decline in subscribers.

    For channel line-up it's pretty much the same as UPC Dublin EPG but a 'lite' version with missing channels. Here's the 100's channel lineup on MMDS for Greystones:

    100 Info TV
    101 RTÉ One
    102 RTÉ Two
    103 TV3
    104 TG4
    105 Setanta Ireland
    106 3e
    107 RTÉ One +1 1
    108 BBC One Northern Ireland
    109 BBC Two Northern Ireland
    110 UTV
    111 Channel 4
    112 E4
    113 E4 +1
    114 Sky1
    115 Sky2
    116 BBC Three
    117 BBC Four
    118 More4
    120 Gold
    121 TLC
    122 Dave
    123 Universal Channel
    124 Sky Living
    127 Comedy Central
    128 Comedy Central +1
    130 ITV2
    134 Comedy Central Extra

    I just think the ordering is more sensible. For BBC one it's great having it at 108, whereas on Sky EPG its at 141. Also have the ITV/UTV channels been added to the EPG on Sky yet or do you have to select other channels (and also not able to sky+ the programmes)?

    When I was growing up the TV the parents had Cablelink and BBC One was tuned in for pre-set 1 on so on for the four UK channels with RTE 1 & 2 at pre-sets 5 and 6. Then slowly a Sky channel came along and then MTV. These were tuned in on the pre-sets as and when they came on. It was logical in the ordering. I remember it getting to 13 channels on analogue before the digital boxes came out. I think there are a couple more since?!

    -. . ...- . .-. / --. --- -. -. .- / --. .. ...- . / -.-- --- ..- / ..- .--.



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    #21
    The Cush
    Registered Users Posts: 15,481 ✭✭✭✭The Cush


    astrofluff wrote: »
    I just think the ordering is more sensible. For BBC one it's great having it at 108, whereas on Sky EPG its at 141. Also have the ITV/UTV channels been added to the EPG on Sky yet or do you have to select other channels (and also not able to sky+ the programmes)?

    ...
    I remember it getting to 13 channels on analogue before the digital boxes came out. I think there are a couple more since?!

    I agree with you, I'd prefer the UPC channel positioning too but I understand why Sky's do it, as it delivers channels to 2 different TV markets using a single epg.

    UTV and the ITV are still only available via other channels.

    When I lived in Dublin some years ago there were 17 analogue channels IIRC.


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    #22
    The Cush
    Registered Users Posts: 15,481 ✭✭✭✭The Cush


    The Cush wrote: »
    All MMDS licences will expire at midnight on 18 April 2016.

    MMDS services will continue to have exclusive use of the spectrum until licences expire in 2016.

    The new rights of use to 2.6 GHz spectrum would be made available on a service and technology neutral basis.

    Following an auction process any new licence holder could distribute television programming content, subject to complying with the relevant technical conditions.

    http://www.comreg.ie/publications/response_to_consultation_and_final_decision_on_proposal_to_renew_the_existing_mmds_licences_from_19_april_2014_to_18_april_2016.583.104333.p.html

    Comreg has begun the process of auctioning the MMDS spectrum by publishing an Invitation to Tender for advice and assistance for the award of spectrum rights of use in the 2.6 GHz band and additional bands today.

    http://www.comreg.ie/publications/invitation_to_tender_for_advice_and_assistence_for_the_award_of_spectrum_rights_of_use_in_the_2_6_ghz_band_and_additional_bands.583.104503.p.html


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    #23
    The Cush
    Registered Users Posts: 15,481 ✭✭✭✭The Cush


    Comreg yesterday published a consultation on the award of spectrum rights of use of the 2.6 GHz spectrum band (2500 – 2690 MHz) with the possible inclusion of the 700 MHz 1, 1.4 GHz, 2.3 GHz and 3.6 GHz 2 bands.

    http://www.comreg.ie/publications/information_notice__comreg_publishes_first_consultation_on_new_spectrum_award_process.583.104702.p.html


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    #24
    Apogee
    Registered Users Posts: 3,770 ✭✭✭Apogee


    What is the current usage of the bands proposed for auction?

    2.6 GHz band (2500 - 2690 MHz) - MMDS

    1.4 GHz band (1452 – 1492 MHz) - ????

    2.3 GHz band (2300 -2400 MHz) - Rurtel, Dáil TV, Eircom

    In the outcome to the previous consultation on this band, Comreg didn't seem particularly pushed about underusage or having Eircom squatting on this band.

    3.6 GHz band (3600 – 3800 MHz) - Fixed wireless broadband?
    Comreg wrote:
    ComReg is aware that, unlike other bands being proposed for inclusion in this award process, the 3.6 GHz band is essentially ‘brownfield’ spectrum in that broadband access is currently being provided to 37,342 customers utilising licensed services in that band.

    700 MHz band (694 – 790 MHz) - Saorview


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    #25
    The Cush
    Registered Users Posts: 15,481 ✭✭✭✭The Cush


    Apogee wrote: »
    What is the current usage of the bands proposed for auction?

    1.4 GHz band (1452 – 1492 MHz) - ????

    1.4 GHz band (1452 – 1492 MHz) - Unused, originally allocated to L-Band DAB

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/L_band#DAB_L_band_usage


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    #26
    Apogee
    Registered Users Posts: 3,770 ✭✭✭Apogee


    Most recent MMDS subscriber numbers at 33,600.

    http://www.rte.ie/news/business/2014/0806/635461-upc-television-subscribers/


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    #27
    The Cush
    Registered Users Posts: 15,481 ✭✭✭✭The Cush


    Apogee wrote: »
    Most recent MMDS subscriber numbers at 33,600.

    http://www.rte.ie/news/business/2014/0806/635461-upc-television-subscribers/

    Liberty Global's latest numbers, thread here - http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?p=91595640#post91595640


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    #28
    Apogee
    Registered Users Posts: 3,770 ✭✭✭Apogee


    As SpongeBob presciently noted in this thread, we now have almost 200MHz of spectrum locked up for close on 2 years by a little over 30K customers and rapidly falling.

    Were Comreg even remotely competent, the 2.6GHz band would have been released in April 2014 and not restricted for another 24 months.


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    #29
    Apogee
    Registered Users Posts: 3,770 ✭✭✭Apogee


    The Cush wrote: »
    The release of the 800MHz band was their focus for the last few years, they mentioned in a recent document that this auction process will be done quicker based on the lessons learned from the previous auction and also allows UPC sufficient time to wind down their service without giving them the full 5yr extension.

    IOW they are incapable of doing more than one thing at a time. The extension to UPC is only ass-covering on Comreg's part.


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    #30
    The Cush
    Registered Users Posts: 15,481 ✭✭✭✭The Cush


    Apogee wrote: »
    Were Comreg even remotely competent, the 2.6GHz band would have been released in April 2014 and not restricted for another 24 months.

    The release of the 800MHz band was their focus for the last few years, they mentioned in a recent document that this auction process will be done quicker based on the lessons learned from the previous auction and also allows UPC sufficient time to wind down their service without giving them the full 5yr extension.

    http://www.comreg.ie/_fileupload/publications/ComReg12132.pdf


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    #31
    watty
    Registered Users Posts: 32,417 ✭✭✭✭watty


    It's about money from Licences.

    Not about what we need.


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