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2.3-2.6GHz: MMDS, Dáil TV, Rurtel.

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  • 28-06-2009 9:23pm
    #1
    Apogee
    Registered Users Posts: 3,773 ✭✭✭


    If OneVision doesn't get off the ground, and let's say Easy TV decide to take up the DTT licences, what is the status of the current MMDS spectrum? Does anyone know how long the current MMDS licences last for? Is there just one licence or multiple licences (due to when Chorus and NTL were separate)?

    [MMDS & 2.3GHz discussion moved from Onevision DTT here http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=60905641&postcount=390 ]


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    #2
    watty
    Registered Users Posts: 32,417 ✭✭✭✭watty


    Comreg has a consultation out on 2.3GHz and suggests that the 2.5GHz won't be available for some while.

    EasyTV won't take up the licence Well, I'm fairly sure. When it does expire it will be reused as Data, not MMDS.

    If MPEG4 was used the MMDS could manage nearly 270 channels. Or 20 HD channels and 170 SD. Pretty decent chunk of spectrum. UHF DTT can't compete as a Pay TV delivery platform..


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    #3
    Apogee
    Registered Users Posts: 3,773 ✭✭✭Apogee


    I'm thinking along the lines that if Easy TV took up the DTT licence, then the MMDS spectrum should be taken off them as soon as possible. Too valuable a resource to be wasted on television channels. AFAIK this is on the cards anyway due to EU directives.

    Anyone have the specifics (links etc) on this?


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    #4
    watty
    Registered Users Posts: 32,417 ✭✭✭✭watty


    Doesn't work like that. The MMDS licence is completely separate issue and Comreg would lose in Court quick-time if they attempted such a connection.

    Also the ex NTL areas have 120 ch and ex Chorus areas have 66ch. You can't switch tem off simply because a separate company (not UPC, but a consortium including UPC's parent company) wins a licence on an other band.

    It would be worse than turing off 02 900MHZ GSM because they got a 2.1GHZ 3G Licence. Actually the GSM 900 Licences expire before MMDS.


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    #5
    Apogee
    Registered Users Posts: 3,773 ✭✭✭Apogee


    watty wrote: »
    Doesn't work like that. The MMDS licence is completely separate issue and Comreg would lose in Court quick-time if they attempted such a connection.

    I know they can't arbitrarily revoke the licence, more that they would take back the spectrum as soon as possible under the conditions of the licence.

    Anyway I had a trawl through the comreg website. The original licences were awarded in 1999 for a 15 year term expiring in 2014. The terms were amended in 2002, with the main provision being that a licence awarded after March 2002 had a 5 year duration.

    Also "In-platform exclusivity under the cable and MMDS licences issued under the 1999 Regulations is terminated from the 1st of March 2002" - what does "in-platform exclusivity" mean?

    Because of NTL's tardiness in rolling out digital channels in Dublin, Galway and Waterford, the length of their licence was reduced by 2 years in those areas and will expire in 2012.

    The last link is submissions from various stakeholders on "Managing the Radio Spectrum 2008-2010", of which the UPC one is the most pertinent - some juicy bits have been redacted from the online document. It refers to the fact that comreg have already taken some of the 2.6GHz spectrum away from UPC (originally 2500 – 2676MHz until January 1, 2005 but 2524 – 2668MHz thereafter).

    UPC's queries:
    a. Will ComReg agree to harmonising all UPC Ireland MMDS licences to
    2014 ?
    b. Will ComReg consider reallocating the four (ntl) channels removed in
    2005 to licences cover the 2500-2676MHz frequency range ?
    c. Would ComReg agree to concessions to allow two-way services on
    the existing MMDS licences?
    d. When does ComReg expect to be in a position to inform UPC Ireland
    whether or not existing licences will be renewed (or indeed when will
    it be in a position inform licensees of future use the MMDS spectrum
    frequencies )?


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    #6
    Apogee
    Registered Users Posts: 3,773 ✭✭✭Apogee


    Comreg currently have a consultation paper on the 2.3-2.4GHz region. See here.

    Looking through the document on current usage of this band, I noticed the following:
    Currently Aervision is licensed to transmit the Dáil TV channel using 8 MHz of spectrum in the 2308 – 2316 MHz part of the band. The usage of this frequency assignment is geographically limited to the Dublin area. In any future licence award process it will be necessary to ensure that this application does not suffer any interference from any new licensed services using the same or adjacent spectrum. Therefore, ComReg does not propose to assign frequencies in the range 2300 – 2330 MHz in geographical areas where Dáil TV operates.

    I can't find any website for Aervision or any reference to them on the web. Anyone know more about this? It seems somewhat pointless given the proposed Oireachtas TV channel on DTT (eventually).

    3672610387_518aae3527_o.jpg
    http://comreg.ie/radio_spectrum/2300_MHz_Usage.704.2300MHzusage.html

    As a side issue, what is the uptake of Rurtel in this band? Are there any numbers available?


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    #7
    Sponge Bob
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 25,234 ✭✭✭✭Sponge Bob


    That map is a fiction peddled by eircom . Most 'cell' sites do not exist .

    oireachtas.tv is broadcast in a small area around Merrion square only , afaik , maybe not any more .


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    #8
    pa990
    Registered Users Posts: 3,884 ✭✭✭pa990


    how exactly would this tv station be received by joe public ?

    what equipment would be needed?


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    #9
    watty
    Registered Users Posts: 32,417 ✭✭✭✭watty


    Maybe
    An old MMDS dish with down converter and a TV.

    The MMDS downconverter does 2550MHz to 200MHz rougly, so you might be able to tune in on Band I 42MHz and up. (2350 being 150MHz lower).

    I don't know for sure.

    But it is only 8MHz, so not FM, thus a 2300MHz to VHF or UHF convertor is what is needed.

    It will be the same video as one of these
    http://www.oireachtas.ie/viewdoc.asp?DocID=4420

    Oireacthas TV was set up years ago to feed DTT (2001?) that never happened. In a bizzare twist of fate RTENL has the space allocated on the DTT that is now operational on nearly 85% of the population. But the Government claim that they can't afford to transmit it. (sounds like a case for here)

    The Aervision Dáil TV channel and Rurtel are both obsolete, yet ComReg is insisting they are excluded from the consultation.


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    #10
    watty
    Registered Users Posts: 32,417 ✭✭✭✭watty


    Ironically UPC would be providing BB via MMDS if the spectrum hadn't been taken.

    In-platform exclusivity
    Originally Cable and MMDS licences were exclusive. Now anyone can have a MMDS licence (if the spectrum available in a location) and anyone can run cable TV anywhere.

    There is a new MMDS band at about 11.7GHz to 12.5GHz. A 40cm minidish with rear feed and LNB with 22kHz on feeding a sat receiver will work fine. The previously Anti-MMDS SCTV is the only company to take an licences. 2.5GHz actually will work without LOS (line of sight) to an extent, the 12GHz band won't :)

    Any new licence for 2.5GHz after 2002 (were there any?) would have been only five years.

    UPC has been increasing reach of cable in Limerick, Galway, Dublin, Cork, Waterford etc as they unlike NTL and Chorus intend to have Broadband + Phone + Digital on all of it ASAP. The MMDS was being used extensively in some parts of Dublin and Limerick that are now cabled (or disused cable re-cabled).

    I've looked on a professional basis how to add Wireless BB to MMDS. Really a 2nd separate band for uplink and in opposite polarity so the Transmit aerial can be at right angles on same stalk of dish is best. In the 2.3GHz part. The existing downconverter and a splitter can handle downlink using a Cable Broadband channel instead of TV in the MMDS band.


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    #11
    bk
    Moderators, Motoring & Transport Moderators, Technology & Internet Moderators Posts: 22,491 Mod ✭✭✭✭bk


    It is funny all this talk and excitement about pay DTT and we have actually had a superior wireless pay TV platform in MMDS for years.

    MMDS can carry 120 channels, versus only 30 for DTT. The only advantage I can see that DTT has is that it can be picked up indoors in some urban areas.

    120 channel MMDS is barely competitive with Sat, what hope does 30 channel pay TV have?

    BTW I wonder would it be a good idea to extend the MMDS contract to UPC if they agreed to invest in it, perhaps switch to MPEG4, carry more channels, etc?


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    #12
    lucernarian
    Registered Users Posts: 9,235 ✭✭✭lucernarian


    Many and varied are the problems with how MMDS was done. Besides, RTÉ as the PSB will need to have a mux in the UHF band by 2015. The only thing superior about MMDS is its poor service to customers.

    But paid-for DTT, certainly if it's above a €10 a month, is still doomed. And the only way RTÉ's DTT will be paid for is with the selling of spectrum. Including that waste that are the 2.3 GHz allocations.

    Assuming ComReg are useless former TÉ employees, all the wireless operators and mobile phone companies should be lobbying politicians anyway. Instead of letting amateur interest groups do a better job of highlighting the problems:).


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    #13
    Apogee
    Registered Users Posts: 3,773 ✭✭✭Apogee


    pa990 wrote: »
    how exactly would this tv station be received by joe public ?

    what equipment would be needed?

    One of these - Calamp 130415!
    3674238039_1d63751c50_o.jpg
    http://www.bmarc.org/data/ragchew/RagchewFirst_Quarter2006.pdf

    You'll see 2.3-2.5GHz converters on the web, usually from China. It's a hassle trying to get anything in direct from there though. I've got a downconverter from there by way of Australia, but it downconverts to the L-band for when/if S-band gets going on satellite.
    To_be_confirmed wrote: »
    Assuming ComReg are useless former TÉ employees, all the wireless operators and mobile phone companies should be lobbying politicians anyway. Instead of letting amateur interest groups do a better job of highlighting the problems:).

    Do TDs or the minister have any real say in what comreg does? Can a decision by comreg be overruled?


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    #14
    Sponge Bob
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 25,234 ✭✭✭✭Sponge Bob


    Apogee wrote: »
    Do TDs or the minister have any real say in what comreg does? Can a decision by comreg be overruled?

    The minister can give Comreg policy directives ( they are published) under the 2002 Communications Act but Comreg will simply ignore them if we look at the 2 or 3 they have been given in the past .

    They only ever complied with one, to introduce flat rate dialup .


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    #15
    watty
    Registered Users Posts: 32,417 ✭✭✭✭watty


    Which wasn't really flat rate IMO.


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    #16
    Ghost Train
    Registered Users Posts: 30,049 ✭✭✭✭Ghost Train


    pa990 wrote: »
    how exactly would this tv station be received by joe public ?

    what equipment would be needed?


    As well as any DTV service that it was or will be it's also free IPTV channel... well I asssume its the same thing

    http://www.oireachtas.ie/viewdoc.asp?DocID=4420
    http://www.oireachtas.ie/viewdoc.asp?fn=/documents/livewebcast/DailFlash512KB.htm


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    #17
    watty
    Registered Users Posts: 32,417 ✭✭✭✭watty


    It's 8Mhz so analogue.
    Your links in post 8 already http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=60925042&postcount=10


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    #18
    The Cush
    Registered Users Posts: 15,500 ✭✭✭✭The Cush


    Apogee wrote: »
    I'm thinking along the lines that if Easy TV took up the DTT licence, then the MMDS spectrum should be taken off them as soon as possible. Too valuable a resource to be wasted on television channels. AFAIK this is on the cards anyway due to EU directives.
    Apogee wrote: »
    The last link is submissions from various stakeholders on "Managing the Radio Spectrum 2008-2010", of which the UPC one is the most pertinent - some juicy bits have been redacted from the online document. It refers to the fact that comreg have already taken some of the 2.6GHz spectrum away from UPC (originally 2500 – 2676MHz until January 1, 2005 but 2524 – 2668MHz thereafter).

    Frequencies 2500 – 2520 and 2670 – 2690 MHz (4 MMDS channels 1, 2, 3, 22) were never available to Digital MMDS. These frequencies were made available (WRC-2000) to Satellite Mobile services and/or terrestrial (IMT-2000, UMTS, 3G) from 2005.
    In 2005 the satellite requirement was removed and the whole band was allocated to terrestrial services from 2008, hence the reason for UPC requesting ComReg in 2007 for the reallocation of the 4 channels to Digital MMDS.

    In 2008 an EU Commission Decision made the band available on a "technology neutral and service neutral basis" to terrestrial services. The Decision "designated and made (the band) available for systems capable of providing electronic communications services as defined in the Framework Directive (2002/21/EC)" ... "MMDS is a means of transmission and is covered by the definition of ECS in the Framework Directive".
    bk wrote: »
    BTW I wonder would it be a good idea to extend the MMDS contract to UPC if they agreed to invest in it, perhaps switch to MPEG4, carry more channels, etc?

    There is an option in the MMDS regulations to renew the current licences for 5 years to 2019 following consultation and review. This licence review cannot begin before 19 April 2010.
    The EU requires that "an investigation should take place to which extent the MMDS operator is using the frequencies efficiently and whether the occupation of the entire 2500-2690 MHz band is justified. For example, it could be argued that when MMDS operation changes from analogue to digital (necessitating a change of customer equipment anyway), state of the art technologies, including MPEG4 compression, should be used to ensure efficient and effective spectrum use".
    Both the Framework Directive and the Commission Decision require the national regulatory authorities to ensure effective and efficient use of the radio spectrum e.g. during licence renewal.
    In a 2003 consultation ComReg proposed reducing the number of channels available to Digital MMDS from 18 to 11 and allocating the remaining spectrum to 3G services.
    When the review begins next year MPEG4, DVB-T2, DVC-C2 may form part of the consultation process in relation to licence extension with less MMDS spectrum.
    Apogee wrote: »
    UPC's queries:
    c. Would ComReg agree to concessions to allow two-way services on
    the existing MMDS licences?

    UPC said in their submission to the "Managing the Radio Spectrum 2008-2010" consultation last year that they were carrying out a trial "which tests the offer of two-way services to our MMDS base (by using the return path in the 2300 -2400 Mhz band)" for broadband services.
    It will be interesting to read UPC's submission to the current 2.3-2.4 GHz consultation, I wonder if they are interested in this band.


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    #19
    Apogee
    Registered Users Posts: 3,773 ✭✭✭Apogee


    The Cush wrote: »
    Frequencies 2500 – 2520 and 2670 – 2690 MHz (4 MMDS channels 1, 2, 3, 22) were never available to Digital MMDS. These frequencies were made available (WRC-2000) to Satellite Mobile services and/or terrestrial (IMT-2000, UMTS, 3G) from 2005.
    In 2005 the satellite requirement was removed and the whole band was allocated to terrestrial services from 2008, hence the reason for UPC requesting ComReg in 2007 for the reallocation of the 4 channels to Digital MMDS.

    Are you sure? From reading UPC's submission though, they seem to think they had the use of those frequencies:
    Under the terms of these Licences and subsequent Licences bringing these in lines with the 2003 Regulations, ntl and Chorus were granted the use of the frequency band 2500 – 2676 MHz until January 1, 2005 and the use of the frequency band from 2524 – 2668 MHz from January 1, 2005 onwards for the provision of MMDS services.
    b. Will ComReg consider reallocating the four (ntl) channels removed in
    2005 to licences cover the 2500-2676MHz frequency range ?

    And according to comreg themselves in June 2003:
    The current MMDS spectrum allocation comprises twenty two 8MHz channels in the frequency range 2500 – 2676 MHz. There are two providers of MMDS services, Chorus and ntl. Households may not be connected to the MMDS service in an area that is licensed for cable distribution, except with the prior consent of ComReg.

    The operators use this spectrum to provide analogue and/or digital television services. It is ComReg’s current expectation that analogue MMDS services will eventually cease and that consequently a number of the channels currently licensed for MMDS will no longer be required for television distribution.

    It has been agreed that in 2005 the operators will vacate the channels occupying the sub-bands 2500 – 2520 MHz and 2670 – 2690 MHz, to accommodate a potential requirement for satellite 3G mobile services.


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    #20
    watty
    Registered Users Posts: 32,417 ✭✭✭✭watty


    Ex Chorus is DTT and about 6 digital MPEG2 channels per 8MHz channel.

    With state-of-the-art MPEG4 & statistical Multiplexing you could fit 18 to 20 channels. (spread all the lower bitrate poor channels and best high bit rate across the muxes).

    Chorus Analog areas about 66 Digital channels using DVB-t and ex NTL areas are all digital with 120 channels (in 22 muxes I presume) using DVB-c.

    I can post a photo or two of MMDS spectrum (captured in 10MHz chunks) if people really want.


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    #21
    The Cush
    Registered Users Posts: 15,500 ✭✭✭✭The Cush


    Apogee wrote: »
    Are you sure? From reading UPC's submission though, they seem to think they had the use of those frequencies:

    Yes, they had the use of these frequencies for analogue MMDS. Analogue MMDS used the full range 2500 – 2686 MHz (23 channels), Digital MMDS was allocated a narrower range 2524 - 2668 MHz (18 channels).

    I have attached ComReg's most recent Technical Conditions for the Operation of Analogue & Digital MMDS from 2004.

    Planning for Digital MMDS got underway in 1998, the Draft Conditions for the operation of Digital MMDS (attached) published Sept 1998 states the frequency band is 2524-2668 MHz.
    At this time planning was underway for WRC-2000 which allocated 2500-2690 MHz to IMT-2000/UMTS terrestrial and/or satellite services from Jan 2005. The upper and lower parts of the band had to be cleared for satellite UMTS so the transition from analogue to digital MMDS was a good time to do it. By 2004 it was decided to allocate all the band to terrestrial IMT-2000/UMTS and as I said earlier hence the reason for UPC requesting ComReg in 2007 for the reallocation of the 4 channels to Digital MMDS.
    Apogee wrote: »
    And according to comreg themselves in June 2003:

    That quote actually answers your first question and ComReg's position in 2003, before the reallocation of the complete band to terrestrial IMT-2000/UMTS in 2005.
    It is ComReg’s current expectation that analogue MMDS services will eventually cease and that consequently a number of the channels currently licensed for MMDS will no longer be required for television distribution.

    It has been agreed that in 2005 the operators will vacate the channels occupying the sub-bands 2500 – 2520 MHz and 2670 – 2690 MHz, to accommodate a potential requirement for satellite 3G mobile services.


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    #22
    The Cush
    Registered Users Posts: 15,500 ✭✭✭✭The Cush


    watty wrote: »
    I can post a photo or two of MMDS spectrum (captured in 10MHz chunks) if people really want.

    Yes, please :D


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    #23
    Apogee
    Registered Users Posts: 3,773 ✭✭✭Apogee


    The Cush wrote: »
    Yes, they had the use of these frequencies for analogue MMDS. Analogue MMDS used the full range 2500 – 2686 MHz (23 channels), Digital MMDS was allocated a narrower range 2524 - 2668 MHz (18 channels).

    Ah right, I didn't pick up on the "digital" bit.


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    #24
    Apogee
    Registered Users Posts: 3,773 ✭✭✭Apogee


    The Cush wrote: »
    By 2004 it was decided to allocate all the band to terrestrial IMT-2000/UMTS and as I said earlier hence the reason for UPC requesting ComReg in 2007 for the reallocation of the 4 channels to Digital MMDS.

    Would this not be a case of UPC just chancing their arm in trying to get the channels back? The ultimate, logical outcome from WRC-2000 would be that MMDS would be booted off the 2.5GHz band entirely??


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    #25
    Apogee
    Registered Users Posts: 3,773 ✭✭✭Apogee


    watty wrote: »
    I can post a photo or two of MMDS spectrum (captured in 10MHz chunks) if people really want.

    I'd be especially interested in knowing the lowest frequency they use for a digital mux and if it's above the 2524MHz cutoff.


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    #26
    watty
    Registered Users Posts: 32,417 ✭✭✭✭watty


    Ah that could be tricky as I'm using a Downconverter to VHF band III / Hyperband and then an old tuner set to Band III and feeding the 100kHz to 110MHz spectrum analyser at 34MHz to 44MHz 1MHz per division.

    The MMDS should never have been there in the first place.


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    #27
    The Cush
    Registered Users Posts: 15,500 ✭✭✭✭The Cush


    Apogee wrote: »
    Would this not be a case of UPC just chancing their arm in trying to get the channels back? The ultimate, logical outcome from WRC-2000 would be that MMDS would be booted off the 2.5GHz band entirely??

    Probably, with the future of this band to be decided within the next 12 to 18 months I don't think ComReg will restrict its options for the band by allocating the 4 channels to Digital MMDS now considering that their position in 2003 was for a core of 11 channels for Digital MMDS and the remainder for 3G services in urban areas.

    MMDS wasn't going to be booted out of the band, it was there for over 10 years before WRC-2000. Other European countries also had MMDS in this band. The EU Commission Decision last year confirmed this but it will have to share with other services in the band.


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    #28
    Apogee
    Registered Users Posts: 3,773 ✭✭✭Apogee


    I personally can't see why MMDS should be allocated any of this band in future. If you measure it against satellite, then it offers nothing extra to my mind : limited coverage; not suited to Irish terrain; limited bandwidth; customer is restricted to a single supplier; subscription only service - no FTA channels; bulk of the channels you pay for are already available for free on satellite; no choice in terms of receiver/pvr type; limited HD potential; historically poor customer support.

    The only technical benefit is that a single cable can be split to multiple receivers, but then you pay for the privilege. With the development of Unicable, Pace's and Sky's new distribution systems, that is also becoming less of an issue for satellite.


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    #29
    watty
    Registered Users Posts: 32,417 ✭✭✭✭watty


    Even ordinary satellite distribution using Quattro LNB is < 20 Euro extra per box and extends to 1000+ outlets with up to 4 dishes feeding. Unicable is limited, typically to 16 outlets and one dish/lnb.

    MMDS was a cable company pre cheap -satellite era concept.


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    #30
    Apogee
    Registered Users Posts: 3,773 ✭✭✭Apogee


    A multiswitch setup is not a single cable solution. Unicable can cope with 8 tuners max. Sky/Entropic claim their CSS approach can potentially serve up to 12 tuners.


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    #31
    watty
    Registered Users Posts: 32,417 ✭✭✭✭watty


    As I said. It's a small scale solution. In reality since each sat receiver in a different room has to have a cable, the unicable may not save much cabling.

    So more than 12 tuners (6 PVRs) OR more than one satellite you need a Multiswitch.

    Unicable LNB is a lot more expensive too. But it may be better in the realm of single satellite Quad or Octo.

    I really think an Octo is a stupid solution compared to Multiswitch. I swapped a quad for a Multiswitch driven with 4 x Quattro for 4 satellites and 16 outlets. Increasing to 32 outlets is less than €250 and can be retrofitted. Increasing to 176 outlets only requires trunk amplifier driving 9 tap splitters and 1 two way splitter.

    With each multiswitch replaced by trunk amplifier, 9 x tap splitters (quad in a one box) and one quad 2 way splitter you can have 121 Multiswitches = 1936 outlets. The degradation is very small. Each multiswitch / system can be for 1, 2 or 4 satellite feeds.

    All apartements should have such systems. UHF terrestrial TV and Cable TV/Broadband will work via the "terrestrial" port on the Multiswitch, allowing a diplex wall plate in the room to have Cable/Broadband, DTT/AnalogueTV and Satellite. If the cable goes above 470MHz or Aerial has DAB/VHF, you do two coax to each wall outlet from separate Multiswitch. This suits a PVR. Then half the multiswitches are fed by Cable/Broadband and half fed with VHF-FM/BandIII-TV/DAB/DTT/Analogue UHF. I built and tested such as system with helical filters for each UHF tv channel/Mux for even cleaner distribution.


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