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Hatred of the defence forces.

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13

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    #62
    Delancey
    Closed Accounts Posts: 5,451 ✭✭✭Delancey


    The current ' squaring off ' between public and private sector certainly does not help - all public sector organisations seem to be coming under more criticism than when times were good.

    I think much of the negative views actually have their roots in Government Defence policy ( if one can even call it that ) , deliberate neglect of the Defence Forces has historically meant the military here is small whereas in the US or UK far more people will have served or have family members who served and thus have perhaps a greater appreciation.

    Political neglect of the military here is shocking - one of the most senior positions in most European governments is that of Defence Minister yet if we cast our minds back to when Brian Lenihan Sr. had his liver transplant he was afterwards appointed as Minister for Defence so as not to strain his fragile health. Can anyone recall any sort of Dail debate on Defence ( excluding the parish pump issue of barracks closures ) ?

    Sucessive governments have demonstrated their complete dis-interest in Defence matters - therefore not surprising that much of the public share that lack of interest or understanding.


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    #63
    CajunPenguin
    Registered Users Posts: 126 ✭✭CajunPenguin


    I hate them because they won't let me join because of a minor disability :'( It barely affects me at all, I'm fitter than half the people my age but because of red tape...
    Of course that's just the arseholes at the top, more the government's fault, I'd say any sane commander would like one more fit and ready soldier
    Maybe I can go into a secret government programme and become Cpt Ireland?


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    #64
    Donny5
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,827 ✭✭✭Donny5


    CajunPenguin wrote: »
    I hate them because they won't let me join because of a minor disability :'( It barely affects me at all, I'm fitter than half the people my age but because of red tape...
    Of course that's just the arseholes at the top, more the government's fault, I'd say any sane commander would like one more fit and ready soldier
    Maybe I can go into a secret government programme and become Cpt Ireland?

    Sorry, Cajun, but if I recall correctly, you were unable to join because of Cystic Fibrosis. No Western military is going to take on troops with a condition like that as long as there's a pool of perfectly healthy people to recruit from.


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    #65
    tac foley
    Registered Users Posts: 5,500 ✭✭✭tac foley


    CajunPenguin wrote: »
    I hate them because they won't let me join because of a minor disability :'( It barely affects me at all, I'm fitter than half the people my age but because of red tape...
    Of course that's just the arseholes at the top, more the government's fault, I'd say any sane commander would like one more fit and ready soldier
    Maybe I can go into a secret government programme and become Cpt Ireland?

    Anybody who can call CF a minor disability has a different viewpoint to most people I know. 'Fit? THIS Army doesn't think so.

    While fully respecting your call, I bleeve that you are operating by a different set of mental parameters than those enjoyed by the rest of us who do not have this dreadful and debilitating disease.

    More power to your elbow, Sir, and respect, too, for your efforts.

    However, I fully agree with the previous posts. Be honest with yourself - who would YOU choose if you were a recruiter [always providing that you weren't instantly shown the door out]?

    tac


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    #66
    source
    Registered Users Posts: 5,269 ✭✭✭source


    One point I feel has been glaringly overlooked by BostonB, is what Tac actually said jn his post.

    He never said that soldering was the most dangerous job in Ireland. What he said is that we should respect our soldiers, because they signed up to give their lives (if it came to it) to protect their country.

    The rest of this thread is based on BostonB's incorrect reading of Tacs post.

    Sure on paper farming might be more dangerous, but in reality that's got a lot more to do with farmers not being aware of their own health and safety than any inherent danger in the job itself.

    Back on topic, the amount of times I've heard people say that the DF don't carry live ammo is ridiculous. Again it's down to people who don't know anything about the DF making comments.

    I served in the FCA and RDF and for us it was nothing more than a name change. I was in the Air Defence Regiment, we were fully integrated since the founding of the regiment. As such we did many joint courses and deployments with the PDF, the professionalism from the permanent and reserve batteries was inspiring.

    But again people don't see this and don't know what goes on behind the barracks wall. The lack of information breeds the kind of hatred and contempt that we see for our armed forces.


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    #67
    Morpheus
    Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 2,688 Mod ✭✭✭✭Morpheus


    ADR should be held aloft as a beacon of how integration SHOULD work.


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    #68
    BostonB
    Closed Accounts Posts: 18,056 ✭✭✭✭BostonB


    source wrote: »
    One point I feel has been glaringly overlooked by BostonB, is what Tac actually said jn his post.

    He never said that soldering was the most dangerous job in Ireland. What he said is that we should respect our soldiers, because they signed up to give their lives (if it came to it) to protect their country.

    The rest of this thread is based on BostonB's incorrect reading of Tacs post....

    Actually my point was that the general public is aware that in reality death/injury in the Irish DF is very low compared to other jobs, and other DF in other countries. Its there in black in white in national newspaper. So if you're looking to improve the DF public image, gain respect, that's not the way to do it. It would probably get a negative reaction.

    Showing the public the day to day work, would be a far better way of promoting the work that's done, the professionalism and the value to the state.

    http://www.thejournal.ie/in-pictures-irish-troops-arrive-home-to-smiles-and-smooches-454931-May2012/#slide-slideshow7


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    #69
    Poccington
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,497 ✭✭✭Poccington


    BostonB wrote: »
    Actually my point was that the general public is aware that in reality death/injury in the Irish DF is very low compared to other jobs, and other DF in other countries. Its there in black in white in national newspaper. So if you're looking to improve the DF public image, gain respect, that's not the way to do it. It would probably get a negative reaction.

    Showing the public the day to day work, would be a far better way of promoting the work that's done, the professionalism and the value to the state.

    http://www.thejournal.ie/in-pictures-irish-troops-arrive-home-to-smiles-and-smooches-454931-May2012/#slide-slideshow7

    If we were to go to A'Stan in any sizeable force, the public would be up in arms about it. We continue as we do now, we have it too handy compared to others.

    We can't win.


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    #70
    Delancey
    Closed Accounts Posts: 5,451 ✭✭✭Delancey


    Poccington wrote: »

    We can't win.

    Kinda sums it all up - decades of a policy of ' neutrality ' has allowed a vacuum develop in which the Defence Forces cannot have a full role.
    Neutrality has I believe also permitted governments to ' get away ' with under-funding the Defence Forces.

    Absolutely correct to say there would be uproar were troops to go to Afghanistan or Pakistan ( which will probably be the new flashpoint in a few years ). An apathetic public somehow believe this country has no stake in what happens over there - a few Al Queda bombs on the LUAS or DART would provide a nasty wake up call.


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    #71
    twowheelsonly
    Registered Users Posts: 2,268 ✭✭✭twowheelsonly


    Salvation wrote: »
    All Soldiers are Mercenaries the difference between us and the freelancers is that we are regulated and paid for by a government.

    The Defence forces is what they are a Defence force but they are the only public service that are 100% accountable and actually do their job.

    As for that moron with his opinion, he obviously is an ignorant twat and you would be worse to get in a fight with him and laugh at him as he is braindead and most likely a non functioning member of society that has never lifted a finger.

    I have great time for the Army and appreciate what they do and the many roles that they fulfill. I've had brothers and other relations in the Army and Navy so have some idea of their job.

    I would take issue with the above post though..
    How can you slag off other Public Service areas across the board - of which you most likely have no direct experience - yet brand somebody else a moron for having an opinion on something that he obviously has no experience of.
    A little hint of Pot, Kettle, Black IMO...

    BTW, I don't believe that the general public has a hatred of the Army/Defence Forces. They may be under-appreciated and under valued and subject to criticism but so is every PS job these days.


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    #72
    whitelines
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 159 ✭✭whitelines


    Delancey wrote: »
    Kinda sums it all up - decades of a policy of ' neutrality ' has allowed a vacuum develop in which the Defence Forces cannot have a full role.
    Neutrality has I believe also permitted governments to ' get away ' with under-funding the Defence Forces.

    Absolutely correct to say there would be uproar were troops to go to Afghanistan or Pakistan ( which will probably be the new flashpoint in a few years ). An apathetic public somehow believe this country has no stake in what happens over there - a few Al Queda bombs on the LUAS or DART would provide a nasty wake up call.

    I suspect the general public are of the opinion that if you don't f*ck with Islamic terrorists or the causes they support then they won't f*ck with you. Probably correct. At least in a direct sense.


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    #73
    darkhorse
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,274 ✭✭✭darkhorse


    tac foley wrote: »
    Anybody, and I mean ANYBODY, who signs on the dotted line to become a member of their country's Armed Forces - call them what you will - has effectively signed over not just a few years of their life, but what could, in certain circumstances, be the entire rest of their lives.

    You are signing up to offering your life for your country - a risk that goes along with the wearing of the rather odd clothes that you are made to wear to distinguish you [the defender] from the civilian [the defended].

    Respect is due and required.

    G*d Bless ALL our Armed Forces, who might be put in harm's way so that the rest of you can sleep easy in your beds at night, your children grow up in peace, and that you speak and hear the language of your choice whenever you want to.

    tac

    Very well put, tac. I agree with you 100%.
    John


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    #74
    Morpheus
    Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 2,688 Mod ✭✭✭✭Morpheus


    I dont think the public would have a huge problem. I mean were already working with ISAF in A'Stan and now in Syria too. after a couple of months the furor would die down.

    What we havent had in a long time (since the leb in the 80/90s) is body bags returning from missions.

    Whilst I hope never to see it again in my lifetime, I do think that it has been long enough since this was in the general populations collective memories, to soften their "moral fibre" should they be faced with scenes like that again.

    It would probably result in bleeding heart liberals and the tree huggers calling for the army to be pulled out of whatever baby killing mission they are illegally on. We are a country prepared to admire our soldiers on parades and GOHs, building orphanages and scenes of creating stability in war torn areas etc but we arent prepared to deal with what dangers and risks they will face in the line of their duty and chosen careers and the resulting deaths or injuries that this may incur.


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    #75
    Joko
    Closed Accounts Posts: 126 ✭✭Joko


    This video aptly describes the Irish Military:

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6Hqv5yBaXaI


    Pogs and fobbits.


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    #76
    darkhorse
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,274 ✭✭✭darkhorse


    Joko wrote: »
    This video aptly describes the Irish Military:

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6Hqv5yBaXaI


    Pogs and fobbits.

    And here we have an idiot that obviously never even seen an irish military uniform, so why such a stupid post.:rolleyes:


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    #77
    warwick
    Registered Users Posts: 9 ✭warwick


    Joko wrote: »
    This video aptly describes the Irish Military:

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6Hqv5yBaXaI


    Pogs and fobbits.

    Your an angry little man Joko, whats wrong?
    couldnt get into the Army?
    What do you have against the Irish Defence Forces?


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    #78
    Morpheus
    Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 2,688 Mod ✭✭✭✭Morpheus


    warwick wrote: »
    Your an angry little man Joko, whats wrong?
    couldnt get into the Army?
    What do you have against the Irish Defence Forces?

    WTF does this vid have to do with the Irish Defence Forces? Other than the singer (who whilst pretty crap, seems to have a sort of Boston accent) may possibly be of Irish ancestry!?


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    #79
    xflyer
    Registered Users Posts: 1,787 ✭✭✭xflyer


    I think you're missing the point of the video, guys. Pogs and Fobbits are the modern equivalent of the REMFs. Generally derided by front line troops.

    The implication being obvious for the Irish army. Which of course doesn't see combat very often.

    So yes Joko is being insulting.


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    #80
    Morpheus
    Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 2,688 Mod ✭✭✭✭Morpheus


    Whatever about the type of missions that we go on and the threat / danger level, the individual soldier isn't responsible for this situation so jogo can jogo on.


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    #81
    darkhorse
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,274 ✭✭✭darkhorse


    Morphéus wrote: »
    Whatever about the type of missions that we go on and the threat / danger level, the individual soldier isn't responsible for this situation so jogo can jogo on.

    I second that, Morpheus.


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    #82
    IRISHREDSTAR
    Registered Users Posts: 74 ✭✭IRISHREDSTAR


    warwick wrote: »
    Your an angry little man Joko, whats wrong?
    couldnt get into the Army?
    What do you have against the Irish Defence Forces?

    Nobody has anything against the Irish army, that's why there are not needed they are paid a lot more money that the British or USA army who have to fight
    It's just a government quango jobs for the boys, to dress up and pretend to be in a real army- this cost us over a billion a year to fund this silly dads army copy. at a time when we can't afford to save peoples live with proper healthcare
    As Such The Irish army is the enemy of the people of Ireland. It should be scraped at once we only need a small number less than 100 for shows.


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    #83
    source
    Registered Users Posts: 5,269 ✭✭✭source


    IRISHREDSTAR wrote: »
    warwick wrote: »
    Your an angry little man Joko, whats wrong?
    couldnt get into the Army?
    What do you have against the Irish Defence Forces?

    Nobody has anything against the Irish army, that's why there are not needed they are paid a lot more money that the British or USA army who have to fight
    It's just a government quango jobs for the boys, to dress up and pretend to be in a real army- this cost us over a billion a year to fund this silly dads army copy. at a time when we can't afford to save peoples live with proper healthcare
    As Such The Irish army is the enemy of the people of Ireland. It should be scraped at once we only need a small number less than 100 for shows.

    I don't even know where to start with this ill informed piece of crap excuse of a post.


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    #84
    Praetorian Saighdiuir
    Closed Accounts Posts: 10,968 ✭✭✭✭Praetorian Saighdiuir


    IRISHREDSTAR wrote: »
    Nobody has anything against the Irish army, that's why there are not needed they are paid a lot more money that the British or USA army who have to fight
    It's just a government quango jobs for the boys, to dress up and pretend to be in a real army- this cost us over a billion a year to fund this silly dads army copy. at a time when we can't afford to save peoples live with proper healthcare
    As Such The Irish army is the enemy of the people of Ireland. It should be scraped at once we only need a small number less than 100 for shows.


    Just when I thought all the idiots were extinct.............this guy shows up :(

    I would like a breakdown explanation of each of the sentances in your post. Including any online sources you have to back up your statments.

    Otherwise, an ill informed opinion is an ill informed opinion which does not stand up on its own merits.


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    #85
    IRISHREDSTAR
    Registered Users Posts: 74 ✭✭IRISHREDSTAR


    benwavner wrote: »
    Just when I thought all the idiots were extinct.............this guy shows up :(

    I would like a breakdown explanation of each of the sentances in your post. Including any online sources you have to back up your statments.

    Otherwise, an ill informed opinion is an ill informed opinion which does not stand up on its own merits.

    O.k. first Ireland is not in any danger of attack and even if it was the Mickey mouse Irish dads army could do nothing, twice in the history of this state silly politicians forget this and asked the irish army to do something - to invade northern Ireland. And to blow up nelsons pillar. they could not do anything of the sort. Most of the “soldiers” living around this area seem to me to be far far too old and fat (orders for irish army uniforms must cause a great laugh for the suppliers) to be dressing up and playing at pretend armies. And most seem to spend far too much time drinking in the tax payers subsidized barracks pub.
    In terms of pay lets start at the top we have two minsters running the army and their advisers top civil servants and a host of captain Mainwarings all getting paid more that the Secretary of Defense of the united states (€160000)
    And at the very bottom a us private after four years gets 10,269.60 USD = 8,167.12 EUR
    And for a Irish private after four years it’s €24449 but most of the lazy sod seem to be getting paid a lot more that this-the Irish gov website does not seem to give figures over four years or how many mainwarings of various rank and pay sales above private but the pay rises a lot higher and quicker in the Irish army that any of the real armies.
    But that’s not all Irish soldiers get paid just like the usa army there is extra for fighting abroad or in the case of the Irish a nice holiday in the sun. Don’t like to travel in the Irish army you don’t have to millions of euro’s in bonus payments are made for all sorts of unnecessarys like border patrols and if you can manage to climb up onto a horse the tax payer with have a whip-round to send you all over the world show jumping in nice safe places like Monaco etc. But if your not in the army boys club on the pigs back don’t get sick and ask for a tablet that will say your life, we spent it all and silly things like dads army.


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    #86
    xflyer
    Registered Users Posts: 1,787 ✭✭✭xflyer


    And that's the problem. It's so frustrating. Dickwads like that have no clue. But because the Irish army isn't allowed to see combat in all the recent wars and hasn't been to war since the civil war. People think they can disparage the men and women who serve.

    But this ignores the reality of Irishmen who have seen war.

    There is no reason to suppose that if the Irish army found themselves in combat that they would not distinguish themselves.

    I've said it before, sadly the only way the Irish army will get respect from the Irish public is for them to take serious casualties in some form of conflict.

    It's a strange contradiction.


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    #87
    IRISHREDSTAR
    Registered Users Posts: 74 ✭✭IRISHREDSTAR


    xflyer wrote: »
    And that's the problem. It's so frustrating. Dickwads like that have no clue. But because the Irish army isn't allowed to see combat in all the recent wars and hasn't been to war since the civil war. People think they can disparage the men and women who serve.

    But this ignores the reality of Irishmen who have seen war.

    There is no reason to suppose that if the Irish army found themselves in combat that they would not distinguish themselves.

    I've said it before, sadly the only way the Irish army will get respect from the Irish public is for them to take serious casualties in some form of conflict.

    It's a strange contradiction.
    no the reason the Irish people think the Irish army is a joke is because it is a sick joke on us we have to pay silly men to dress up and play soldiers when there is no need as for Irishmen who fight in other armies of there own free choice good for them, lots of irish in the us army etc. As for the Irish army taking serious casualties please please no, we could not afford the the claims. can you hear me. The people of Ireland we respect the Irish army when It becomes FCA only and the men and Ladies in the paid dads army fe*k off and get a real job and start paying tax and not living off the work of others


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    #88
    It wasn't me!
    Registered Users Posts: 13,034 ✭✭✭✭It wasn't me!


    IRISHREDSTAR wrote: »
    no the reason the Irish people think the Irish army is a joke is because it is a sick joke on us we have to pay silly men to dress up and play soldiers when there is no need as for Irishmen who fight in other armies of there own free choice good for them, lots of irish in the us army etc. As for the Irish army taking serious casualties please please no, we could not afford the the claims. can you hear me. The people of Ireland we respect the Irish army when It becomes FCA only and the men and Ladies in the paid dads army fe*k off and get a real job and start paying tax and not living off the work of others

    Um, you are aware that soldiers pay tax too, right? And you claim that the people of Ireland will respect the army when it becomes an organisation that was disbanded in (IIRC) 2005? Clearly, yours is an opinion that cuts to the heart of the matter alright.


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    #89
    IRISHREDSTAR
    Registered Users Posts: 74 ✭✭IRISHREDSTAR


    It wasn't me! wrote: »
    Um, you are aware that soldiers pay tax too, right? And you claim that the people of Ireland will respect the army when it becomes an organisation that was disbanded in (IIRC) 2005? Clearly, yours is an opinion that cuts to the heart of the matter alright.

    They are paid with tax they are not tax payers were would the money come from if not from real tax payers - the Deductions are a nonsense, they pretend to pay tax just like they pretend to be in a army. we could do the same with everybody on the dole give them a bit extra then "deduct" it leaving them we about the same as there on now and then call them tax payers. As for the fca an unpaid group could do a shows marching etc. Then We would have a extra billion euros that we don't need to cut from things we really do need.
    Dads army must go


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    #90
    IRISHREDSTAR
    Registered Users Posts: 74 ✭✭IRISHREDSTAR


    jbyrne10 wrote: »
    And here we have an idiot that obviously never even seen an irish military uniform, so why such a stupid post.:rolleyes:

    Dads-army-header-600.gif


    It looks like this you stupid boy,It’s so like the Irish army you would think it’s a documentary, in fact they probably use it as a training video.


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    #91
    It wasn't me!
    Registered Users Posts: 13,034 ✭✭✭✭It wasn't me!


    IRISHREDSTAR wrote: »
    They are paid with tax they are not tax payers were would the money come from if not from real tax payers - the Deductions are a nonsense, they pretend to pay tax just like they pretend to be in a army. we could do the same with everybody on the dole give them a bit extra then "deduct" it leaving them we about the same as there on now and then call them tax payers. As for the fca an unpaid group could do a shows marching etc. Then We would have a extra billion euros that we don't need to cut from things we really do need.
    Dads army must go

    Hang on, you think we need to scrap the army but that someone needs to be kept up for shows and marching. Because those are really important, right? Ever served in any army yourself then?


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