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Waterford GAA Discussion Thread 2011-2012
Comments
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deisebhoy17 wrote: »Jesus thats terrible news for young Mahony. Hope he recovers well.
I genuinely feel and have for a while, that players just out of minor should not be picked for the co. senior hurling panel. They should be given a years rest to concentrate on u21 and club commitments in order to tackle the player burnout issue.I know its hard to say it now when weve lads like Jake Dillon and Gavin O'Brien there at the moment who we all want to see week in week out but the amount of hurling some of these lads have played in the last few years in colossal and cant be that good in the long run.
Paudi Mahony was thrown straight into it by last years management and while he ended up being nominated for young player of the year Im not sure it was right to do for him with the responsibility of being the freetaker ect. Since 07 when DLS won their first AI colleges Paudi has been on the go literally 24/7 with school, college club and county. Did he really need to be going straight into the intense county senior hurling training as soon as he was out of minor? I see Noel Connors is also struggling this year, Brian O'Hallaron has struggled for the last 2 years. These lads have a phonomenal amount of sport played even at this early stage for their careers. I know players are going to get injured but they need to be given the best possible chance aswell, otherwise they'll be washed up in their mid-twenties.
Maybe not the best example but Joe Canning took a year out after minor when the entire country was waiting anxiously to see him and it turned out to be a very smart decision for him, even if his teamates have constantly under-achieved.
I agree with you there. Jake has been dropped off senior panel but if he keeps performing like he did last nite he'd have to be called back especially with Paidi Mahoney out now for possibly 3 months.0 -
deisebhoy17 wrote: »I genuinely feel and have for a while, that players just out of minor should not be picked for the co. senior hurling panel. They should be given a years rest to concentrate on u21 and club commitments in order to tackle the player burnout issue.I know its hard to say it now when weve lads like Jake Dillon and Gavin O'Brien there at the moment who we all want to see week in week out but the amount of hurling some of these lads have played in the last few years in colossal and cant be that good in the long run.
Paudi Mahony was thrown straight into it by last years management and while he ended up being nominated for young player of the year Im not sure it was right to do for him with the responsibility of being the freetaker ect. Since 07 when DLS won their first AI colleges Paudi has been on the go literally 24/7 with school, college club and county. Did he really need to be going straight into the intense county senior hurling training as soon as he was out of minor? I see Noel Connors is also struggling this year, Brian O'Hallaron has struggled for the last 2 years. These lads have a phonomenal amount of sport played even at this early stage for their careers. I know players are going to get injured but they need to be given the best possible chance aswell, otherwise they'll be washed up in their mid-twenties.
Maybe not the best example but Joe Canning took a year out after minor when the entire country was waiting anxiously to see him and it turned out to be a very smart decision for him, even if his teamates have constantly under-achieved.
Research coming out in the past few years points to high load and intensity of training between the years of 15-18 as being at the root of player burnout. Its during these ages when young lads bodies are still growing and maturing that they are most susceptible to chronic overuse leading to injuries. I wouldnt have as much of issue with bringing 18 year olds into the senior panel, id have more of an issue with the likes of Harty etc increasing the load on younger players while they're still growing. You can have a very good 16 year old playing juvenile and minor club, county, schools etc. Throw in a bit of football on top of that too. Unless they have perfect biomechanics they'l pick up some niggle along the way. Absolutely crazy stuff. If you want to compare training load and intensity to say, youth professional soccer players in academies across the water. Rest days and prolonged rest periods, couple with set, determined times away from the gym/weights room are enforced with the simple aim of allowing growing bodies the time to actually rest and recover, sometimes less is more when it comes to performance.0 -
deisebhoy17 wrote: »Repeating myself here but Just thinking if Cork came through the backdoor surely they cant meet limerick again? so we would meet cork or limerick? Wouldnt mind avoiding Tipp tbh
First Round draw and semi final draws are made in the late autumn/early winter months of the previous years. Who played who in the first round has no bearing on the semi final draws. There is nothing to stop teams that met in the first round doing so again in the semi finals. Didnt Clare beat Waterford in Fraher Field in 09 and Waterford having beaten Limerick in the play offs went on to play CLare in the semi finals at Ennis where we beat them before going on to win the Munster Final.0 -
Is it true the Waterford Minor hurlers goalkeeper has been dropped by his club for not playing in a challenge game for them five days before the Clare game?
I heard this aswell,the missus is from up that direction and when i was up there earlier i spoke to some of the "natives"and they said that it is strongly rumoured but that the team isn't being announced until tomorrow. If this is the case it's a disgrace in my opinion especially when i heard that no issue was taken with lads playing soccer final's that couldn't tog out for a challenge game the night before it in case of injury! I've actually met Seanie on several occasions and you wouldn't meet a more nicer,determined 17 yr old anywhere. He,through his own dedication and personal training has lost over 2 stone over the winter period and if this is the case tomorrow il really feel for him. He has played all there games up to now so you would imagine even from a team point of view it won't settle their backline,puckouts etc. It is an interesting one alright.0 -
Giveitfong wrote: »
It is noteworthy that twelve different clubs were represented in the starting line-up, with four additional clubs featuring among the substitutes used. Nine of the 16 clubs in question are non-senior clubs. This points to the role of both Bord nÓg and the county’s secondary schools in allowing talented players from smaller clubs to come to the fore.
Well said. And to listen to some from some associated with some of the bigger clubs (not the clubs themselves) we should feel privilaged for the players they are supplying to the different county teams. Many of these players from the non senior teams at this point could go on to be vital to Waterfords hopes in the future.0 -
Giveitfong i must congratulate you on an absolutely brilliant summing up of the game. I was in Ennis and i have to agree with every single description you have made of it. The Austin Gleeson not starting,the Tom Tobin not being used as the fullback so as to release Tadgh De Burcha,and finally,the placing of Conor Sheehan at cornerback at the start of the second half all need to be seriously questioned. All was not well in the camp as late as 3 weeks ago and only for the players looking for more hurling to be done in training they would have been turned in to marathon runners! I seriously feel they need to bring in an established hurling coach for the next 8 weeks,someone who will get the maximum hurling wise out of these bunch of dedicated players and help us play our BEST team and play to our best potential. A lot of things i feel going on behind the scenes that are for personal club glory and anti Harty Cup rather than the betterment of the team will eventually cause the downfall of these minors if its not acted on ASAP.
WELL DONE AGAIN GIVEITFONG.
Have to agree and at the risk of getting shot here, I would say that man would be Peter Power. A Few years back, Dungarvan CBS and Colaiste na nDeise brought him in to look after their teams and they have not looked back since.0 -
deisebhoy17 wrote: »I dont know the ins and the outs but this isnt good if true. Young lads want and need to hurl. Theres enough politics and player revolt at senior level. Is it the same management as last year?
No changed again. Is this the fourth year in a row we have different selectors. Maybe there might be one or two that was involved two years in a row, but the majority are changed.0 -
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Black Suir wrote: »Rumour has it he is Lismore's first choice keeper this year an Brendan Landers is playing in the forwards.
:eek:0 -
Mountainlad wrote: »:eek:
:eek: also! When did "Cider" start playing in the forwards!? To be fair, it wouldn't be a bad thing for Seanie Barry to become established no.1 and get more games, that's of course if he gets the go ahead. :rolleyes:0 -
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Black Suir wrote: »Rumour has it he is Lismore's first choice keeper this year an Brendan Landers is playing in the forwards.
I heard that also.. Wing forward they were supposedly playing him!
Be interesting to see how it fairs out0 -
Did anyone head down to Fraher last night? The first game was very poor. Roanmore have a serious amount of work to do if they want to stay at senior. Hard judge fourmile but they looked very sharp in the first half. Jamie Barron is some player, that was the first time Ive seen him play in the forwards and he didn't disappoint. It will be interesting to see where he ends up for Waterford.
The second match was a much more interesting affair but wasn't great either to be honest. Its only the start of the championship I suppose so both teams should improve considerably.
Can someone post up the score of the Mount Sion DLS game please?0 -
Did anyone head down to Fraher last night? The first game was very poor. Roanmore have a serious amount of work to do if they want to stay at senior. Hard judge fourmile but they looked very sharp in the first half. Jamie Barron is some player, that was the first time Ive seen him play in the forwards and he didn't disappoint. It will be interesting to see where he ends up for Waterford.
The second match was a much more interesting affair but wasn't great either to be honest. Its only the start of the championship I suppose so both teams should improve considerably.
Can someone post up the score of the Mount Sion DLS game please?
DLS 3-16 Sion 1-13
Good to hear Barron doing well, did he score much? Always thought he was a bit wasted at corner back for the county in recent times and offers more in attack. One of those players though that you could play him anywhere and he'd look good. How did Shane Walsh and Gavin O'Brien get on?
Any sign of Foley back for Abbeyside?0 -
Did anyone head down to Fraher last night? The first game was very poor. Roanmore have a serious amount of work to do if they want to stay at senior. Hard judge fourmile but they looked very sharp in the first half. Jamie Barron is some player, that was the first time Ive seen him play in the forwards and he didn't disappoint. It will be interesting to see where he ends up for Waterford.
The second match was a much more interesting affair but wasn't great either to be honest. Its only the start of the championship I suppose so both teams should improve considerably.
Can someone post up the score of the Mount Sion DLS game please?
DLS 3-16 Sion 1-13
Good to hear Barron doing well, did he score much? Always thought he was a bit wasted at corner back for the county in recent times and offers more in attack. One of those players though that you could play him anywhere and he'd look good. How did Shane Walsh and Gavin O'Brien get on?
Any sign of Foley back for Abbeyside?
yeah Foley was playing wing back. He had an alright game without being spectacular. Hes a great player though and hopefully he'll be back to his best soon.
Gavin O'Brien played as well as he could considering Roanmore just didn't show up. He spent a lot of time around midfield trying to get their attack going. They are relying a lot on him.
I don't mean any offence to the lad but Roanmore had a lad playing at full forward who must have been 20 stone at least. Im shocked that a senior team can have someone so unfit playing for them.
I wasnt keeping very good track of the scorers so this is by no means accurate but I'd say Baron finished with about 1-3.0 -
yeah Foley was playing wing back. He had an alright game without being spectacular. Hes a great player though and hopefully he'll be back to his best soon.
Gavin O'Brien played as well as he could considering Roanmore just didn't show up. He spent a lot of time around midfield trying to get their attack going. They are relying a lot on him.
I don't mean any offence to the lad but Roanmore had a lad playing at full forward who must have been 20 stone at least. Im shocked that a senior team can have someone so unfit playing for them.
I wasnt keeping very good track of the scorers so this is by no means accurate but I'd say Baron finished with about 1-3.
To be fair to the lad full forward, he got on a decent bit of ball. Saw him play before, he has a great shot and he's not as immobile as you'd think he'd be.
Barron finished with 1-2 from play I think.
Roanmore's best player were Eoin Madigan and I suppose Gavin O'Brien though I think he was well contained generally.
Fourmilewater played quite well first half, they declined a lot second half but I suppose that's natural. Not great preparation for them for next week against De La Salle though.
As for Roanmore, well they'll probably avoid relegation on account of Dunhill being a poor outfit too, though the scoring potential of Eamon Murphy and Shane Casey could cause trouble. I think one of those two will go down.
For anybody that's wondering the scores from yesterday in Fraher Field were:
Fourmilewater 3-12 Roanmore 0-7
Ballygunner 0-17 Abbeyside 0-120 -
Weekend results
Group 1
Lismore 1-20 Dungarvan 1-17
Ballygunner 0-17, Abbeyside 0-12
Passage 1-13, Ballyduff Upper 0-15
Group 2
Tallow 2-16, Dunhill 1-13
Fourmilewater 3-12, Roanmore 0-7
De la Salle 3-16, Mt. Sion 1-13
Overall nothing to be enthused about. Lismore, Dungarvan was the only really competitive game of the weekend. Ballygunner still look good, but not firing on all cylinders, just doing enough to tick over. Roanmore and to some extent Dunhill well out of their depth. FMW looking impressive, touch and hurling better than most teams, but need to be judged against better opposition. DLS still look the team to beat though.
Next weeks games:
Sat 12th, Abbeyside, v Passage, 7:30 Walsh Park
Sat 12th, FMW v De la Salle, 6:00, Fraher Field
Sat 12th, Tallow v Roanmore, 7:30, Fraher Field
Sun, 13th, Mt Sion v Dunhill, 2:00, Walsh Park
Sun 13th, Ballygunner v Dungarvan, 3:30 Walsh Park
Sun 13th, Lismore v Ballyduff, 7:00 Fraher Field
A few good games in prospect, but in reality the championship is seriously lacking any edge. Most teams could in effect lose 3 games and still make it to the quarter finals. There were very poor crowds at most of the games this weekend. A change to a knock-out system, where you get one more chance if you lose, is badly needed.
As it stands we have round after round of meaningless games. It is clear now that there's no doubt but that Dunhill and Roanmore will not qualify from group 2, and will receive beating after beating.
Finally, the most worrying aspect of the weekend was the average to poor standard of hurling in most games, in fact some of the intermediate games looked better than some of the seniors.
Not a great weekend of hurling, here's hoping for better next weekend.0 -
What were the intermediate games like over the weekend? who looks strong?0
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Re Western Intermediate Games
West Intermediate Hurling Championship Group 1
Modeligo 1-12 vs 3-14 Clashmore/Kinsalebeg
An tSráidbhaile 0-13 vs 0-6 Tourin Ballinwillin
Cappoquin Affane 1-18 vs 0-6 Shamrocks
Group 2
Abbeyside 4-11 Brickeys 2-13
Ballinameela 2-10 An Rinn 2-22
Clashmore looking good against Modeligo, they've alot of work done, with football especially, but have some good hurlers, including Brian O Halloran.
Stradbally had a good victory against a weakened Tourin team. Tourin of course beaten Intermediate champions last year, short the sevies of 3 or 4 regulars. Cappoquin never in doubt against the Shamrocks.
Group 2 saw a good win for Abbeyside's second 15 while an Rinn put in a good hour against last years junior champions Ballinameela. An Rinn v Ardmore next weekend will be a crucial game in that group.
Overall, Ardmore, Cappoquin, Tourin, Stradbally should be in with the best chance of winning what is one of the most competitive championships in Waterford.
Interesting to note there was almost a bigger crowd in Lismore for the Shamrocks Cappoquin game than the senior double header in Dungarvan. The gate was almost 700, which only had a €5 and €3 entrance.
Lesson maybe for the County Board, where €8 for a single senior game is a bit too much in these days. Lower it to €5 and you get a bigger crowd and still make the same money.0 -
Weekend results
Group 1
Lismore 1-20 Dungarvan 1-17
Ballygunner 0-17, Abbeyside 0-12
Passage 1-13, Ballyduff Upper 0-15
Group 2
Tallow 2-16, Dunhill 1-13
Fourmilewater 3-12, Roanmore 0-7
De la Salle 3-16, Mt. Sion 1-13
Overall nothing to be enthused about. Lismore, Dungarvan was the only really competitive game of the weekend. Ballygunner still look good, but not firing on all cylinders, just doing enough to tick over. Roanmore and to some extent Dunhill well out of their depth. FMW looking impressive, touch and hurling better than most teams, but need to be judged against better opposition. DLS still look the team to beat though.
Next weeks games:
Sat 12th, Abbeyside, v Passage, 7:30 Walsh Park
Sat 12th, FMW v De la Salle, 6:00, Fraher Field
Sat 12th, Tallow v Roanmore, 7:30, Fraher Field
Sun, 13th, Mt Sion v Dunhill, 2:00, Walsh Park
Sun 13th, Ballygunner v Dungarvan, 3:30 Walsh Park
Sun 13th, Lismore v Ballyduff, 7:00 Fraher Field
A few good games in prospect, but in reality the championship is seriously lacking any edge. Most teams could in effect lose 3 games and still make it to the quarter finals. There were very poor crowds at most of the games this weekend. A change to a knock-out system, where you get one more chance if you lose, is badly needed.
As it stands we have round after round of meaningless games. It is clear now that there's no doubt but that Dunhill and Roanmore will not qualify from group 2, and will receive beating after beating.
Finally, the most worrying aspect of the weekend was the average to poor standard of hurling in most games, in fact some of the intermediate games looked better than some of the seniors.
Not a great weekend of hurling, here's hoping for better next weekend.
Some people saying we haven't enough competitive games, some people saying the amount needs to be cut. I don't Dunhill and Roanmore will get better with less games, nor will any team for that matter. The early rounds of any championship will have some dead rubbers, I'd say the attendance at club games in Tipp is easily worse.
I like this system, at least you get the opportunity to see a few good games. I thought Mount Sion v DLS would be a good game but obviously that's not how it transpired. FMW v DLS should certainly be a good game, Lismore v Ballygunner as well whenever that is, and I'm sure there'll be a few more.
They say that the all-ireland doesn't start til the quarter finals, so probably a bit much to expect fireworks in the first round of the county championship, I'd say the game will do most teams good.0 -
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^^
I'd agree with that, less games isn't going to make things better. Lads training all winter for championship are not going to want to have one or two games and their summer is over. I think the way it is is fine, as the group games get played off, we'll get a better idea of who's in the mix up for quarter finals and there should hopefully be some good games then when teams will be going out needing a win to get a QF place.
Would agree with tus maith though that €8 for a single senior game is a bit much, a fiver would be more appropriate and would bring a bigger crowd.
So did Seanie Barry start in goal for Lismore yesterday after the whole being dropped saga?0 -
http://www.irishexaminer.com/sport/gaa/deise-blow-as-mahony-ruled-out-for-season-193029.html
Johnny Murphy's take on all the weekend's action.0 -
I was at the Lismore/Dungarvan game and Seanie Barry was dropped! Brendan Landers was back in goal for Lismore. I asked some people in the stand about it and i was told it was because he didn't play in a challenge game against Erins Own from Cork on the friday before the minor game against Clare. Apparently it was left to himself to make the decision as no agreement could be reached between both mangers of the county and club team which i find unbelieveable.
So by making the decision not to play the challenge game he was punished by his club even though he was representing the club as captain on the county team! Even the people i spoke to from Lismore couldn't believe it either as they said it never happened before when the likes of Dan Shanahan and Dave Bennett were playing inter county,it was just accepted that they wouldn't be available for the likes of these challenge games so close to championship.
For the record Lismore nev er really looked in danger of losing bar a few shaky moments at the end. Apparently Dungarvan were backed from 7/2 into 2/1,a lot of it by the players themselves a Dungarvan man informed me afterwards.0 -
Mountainlad wrote: »To be fair to the lad full forward, he got on a decent bit of ball. Saw him play before, he has a great shot and he's not as immobile as you'd think he'd be.
Barron finished with 1-2 from play I think.
Roanmore's best player were Eoin Madigan and I suppose Gavin O'Brien though I think he was well contained generally.
Fourmilewater played quite well first half, they declined a lot second half but I suppose that's natural. Not great preparation for them for next week against De La Salle though.
As for Roanmore, well they'll probably avoid relegation on account of Dunhill being a poor outfit too, though the scoring potential of Eamon Murphy and Shane Casey could cause trouble. I think one of those two will go down.
For anybody that's wondering the scores from yesterday in Fraher Field were:
Fourmilewater 3-12 Roanmore 0-7
Ballygunner 0-17 Abbeyside 0-12
I saw the two of them play over the weekend and would say of the two, Dunhill will finish above Roanmore in the table (the two of them are in the one group). I can see Roanmore playing a relegation play off with Ballyduff Upper unless they improve and if this was to happen Roanmore could find themselves relegated at the end of the year. I saw them win the county final two years ago, I saw them once or twice last year, and again on Saturday night and am afraid to say, they are a very poor side. Unless they improve and i cant see it happening I can see Gavin O'Brien leaving them next year so that he can continue to play Senior Hurling.0 -
Black Suir wrote: »I saw the two of them play over the weekend and would say of the two, Dunhill will finish above Roanmore in the table (the two of them are in the one group). I can see Roanmore playing a relegation play off with Ballyduff Upper unless they improve and if this was to happen Roanmore could find themselves relegated at the end of the year. I saw them win the county final two years ago, I saw them once or twice last year, and again on Saturday night and am afraid to say, they are a very poor side. Unless they improve and i cant see it happening I can see Gavin O'Brien leaving them next year so that he can continue to play Senior Hurling.
Yeah well the one that finishes bottom of the group will get relegated, of that I'm sure. I wouldn't be too sure bout Dunhill though, I don't think Tallow are as good as they're perfromance in the championship would suggest from last year, and I've also been told Dunhill are gonna lose a few players over the summer.
Big statement to make about O'Brien unless you know something I don't.0 -
Ya big statement about Gavin O Brien? I couldn't imagine him leaving Roanmore even if they are relegated. He would be some addition to any senior team but i'd say there would be murder if,lets say,he went to Mt Sion or De La Salle!0
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I dont think gavin o brien would leave roanmore, he has gotton onto county team playing for them and alot of county players are playing or have played intermediate the last few years, thats shud they go down, which i dont think they will, dunhill to be beaten in every game is my prediction for the year0
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Deise Abu 2012 wrote: »
Is that you Deise Tom?
Always good to have a few GAA blogs to read, a few of the posters on this forum the past few years have had some terrific Waterford GAA blogs0 -
Black Suir wrote: »I can see Gavin O'Brien leaving them next year so that he can continue to play Senior Hurling.
Big problem in this county. Dont beleive it goes on anywhere else. As soon as a talented young player comes through from a so-called lesser club' it becomes a question of which of the bigger clubs will snap him up. I dont like this trend its been going on for quite some time and really kicked off when Mount sion poached haulie white and Anthony Kirwan in the late 90s. I know the players are perfectly entitled to do what the system allows them to do but the more that are doing it the more that will follow suit.
I dont know anything about Gavin O'Briens allegiences to his club I cant say Id be surprised if I heard he was looking for a transfer given the trend in this county. The parish rule really needs to be looked at0 -
Is that you Deise Tom?
Always good to have a few GAA blogs to read, a few of the posters on this forum the past few years have had some terrific Waterford GAA blogs
Nice detective work deisedue, I reckon it is DeiseTom himself. Agree with you that no matter who it is its great to have more blogs to read, good work Tom.0 -
deisebhoy17 wrote: »Big problem in this county. Dont beleive it goes on anywhere else. As soon as a talented young player comes through from a so-called lesser club' it becomes a question of which of the bigger clubs will snap him up. I dont like this trend its been going on for quite some time and really kicked off when Mount sion poached haulie white and Anthony Kirwan in the late 90s. I know the players are perfectly entitled to do what the system allows them to do but the more that are doing it the more that will follow suit.
I dont know anything about Gavin O'Briens allegiences to his club I cant say Id be surprised if I heard he was looking for a transfer given the trend in this county. The parish rule really needs to be looked at
Does it go on anywhere outside of the City?
Don't really have any experience of it happening myself.0 -
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Mountainlad wrote: »Does it go on anywhere outside of the City?
Don't really have any experience of it happening myself.
Not as much but it has started to. It started with the big city clubs poaching from smaller clubs but clubs from the west have started following suit now aswell. Examples like Paul Murray Tourin to Cappoquin a couple years back (when Tourin were still junior and Cappoquin were trying to win the intermediate) and a young Kearney lad from the Brickeys who was very highly rated transferred into Dungarvan who were winning all around them at the time.There are numerous other examples and these players are totally within their rights to do what they did, basically because there is no parish rule in this county. You basically have the freedom to play for whoever you like while other counties certain criteria has to be met and the smaller clubs arent getting screwed over as much0 -
Mountainlad wrote: »deisebhoy17 wrote: »Big problem in this county. Dont beleive it goes on anywhere else. As soon as a talented young player comes through from a so-called lesser club' it becomes a question of which of the bigger clubs will snap him up. I dont like this trend its been going on for quite some time and really kicked off when Mount sion poached haulie white and Anthony Kirwan in the late 90s. I know the players are perfectly entitled to do what the system allows them to do but the more that are doing it the more that will follow suit.
I dont know anything about Gavin O'Briens allegiences to his club I cant say Id be surprised if I heard he was looking for a transfer given the trend in this county. The parish rule really needs to be looked at
Does it go on anywhere outside of the City?
Don't really have any experience of it happening myself.
Ah ya happens in Stradbally as well they seem to pick who they Want for the football ..0 -
For anybody who missed it the highlights of the Waterford Clare minor game last week can be found on the TG4 player0
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Waterford play Dublin in a challenge on Monday evening.
Anyone know where and what time its on.?0 -
deisebhoy17 wrote: »Not as much but it has started to. It started with the big city clubs poaching from smaller clubs but clubs from the west have started following suit now aswell. Examples like Paul Murray Tourin to Cappoquin a couple years back (when Tourin were still junior and Cappoquin were trying to win the intermediate) and a young Kearney lad from the Brickeys who was very highly rated transferred into Dungarvan who were winning all around them at the time.There are numerous other examples and these players are totally within their rights to do what they did, basically because there is no parish rule in this county. You basically have the freedom to play for whoever you like while other counties certain criteria has to be met and the smaller clubs arent getting screwed over as much
The only sollution to this problem would be to do what every other successful county does and introduce divisional sides into the senior hurling championship that allows players from smaller intermediate and junior clubs to join together to allow the better players in these clubs to experience senior hurling against the best clubs in the county. This then would allow players to remain with the home club and play senior hurling.0 -
The league format of the championship has become very uncompetitive. DLS and Ballygunner in particular are rarely tested in the league format, heavy defeats of roanmore and dunhill are of no benefit to eitheir teams, I'd propose a reduced championship of 10 teams I would than have a premier intermediate championship consisting of possibly 10 teams cause i believe there is that amount of teams closely matched eg. stradbally, clonea, dunhill, roanmore, ardmore, cappoquin, tourin, rinn0
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newyork4sam wrote: »The league format of the championship has become very uncompetitive. DLS and Ballygunner in particular are rarely tested in the league format, heavy defeats of roanmore and dunhill are of no benefit to eitheir teams, I'd propose a reduced championship of 10 teams I would than have a premier intermediate championship consisting of possibly 10 teams cause i believe there is that amount of teams closely matched eg. stradbally, clonea, dunhill, roanmore, ardmore, cappoquin, tourin, rinn
Even with a ten team championship, DLS and Ballygunner are still far too good for most of the other teams.
A premier intermediate, in both hurling and football, would still make sense though as we have a very poor intermediate championship at present.
I've long supported a move towards divisional group sides like the poster above has mentioned. You are killing two birds with one stone here. Not only are you keeping good lads at smaller clubs, you are offering more players an opportunity to play senior hurling or football.
I'd put in teams from east, west and middle county and take three weaker senior clubs back down to a premier intermediate - which would be all county rather than the current east/west format.0 -
It would be very diffuclt to come up with suitable group teams as the county is not big enough, would you allow a team in intermediate premier form a group team with another team?0
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newyork4sam wrote: »It would be very diffuclt to come up with suitable group teams as the county is not big enough, would you allow a team in intermediate premier form a group team with another team?
Very difficult shouldn't mean that you don't bother.
I'd let every team below senior in. The likes of Kerry have strong group teams and it has improved their championship. I don't think a group team could win anything, but they should be competitive.0 -
I'd agree fully that something has to be done with the intermediate as it is very poor standard wise. As for the group teams this was tried before and didn't work.There are a number of issues that hinder these teams:
Selectors-who and what people decide on their selection?
Times allocated for training?Where would the training schedule fit in with their own club training and if some of these players are on county teams would it not just put more pressure on them?
Realistically the same commitment wouldn't be there from players as would be with their own clubs.
Several of these group teams that take part in the Cork championship are really only fulfilling fixtures and having spoken to some of these group players they find it a burden more so than anything else.
As for the transfer discussion- what is the answer to a player who has fallen out with his given club for,lets say,personal reasons,should he be punished by not being allowed to transfer to a different club or should he be left walk away from the GAA altogether? They have a 96 week ruling in Cork in that if you are determined to leave your own club you are not allowed play with any other club for that period of time,that way they reckon it put players of transferring unless they are totally set on doing so.
Maybe this might be a solution to the problem???0 -
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Very difficult shouldn't mean that you don't bother.
I'd let every team below senior in. The likes of Kerry have strong group teams and it has improved their championship. I don't think a group team could win anything, but they should be competitive.
This debate about the group teams again. Does no one remember the group teams of the late 90s? There were 4 ,Gleann na Bride and Gleann na Deise in the west, Faughs in the east and Meaghars covering the city. It was a complete disaster. Many teams couldnt even field or were totally hammered by cricket scores. It didnt work then or wont work now.
It works in Cork and Kerry because the tradition has always been there. Its a big thing to represent your division. we dont just dont have it here0 -
I'd agree fully that something has to be done with the intermediate as it is very poor standard wise. As for the group teams this was tried before and didn't work.There are a number of issues that hinder these teams:
Selectors-who and what people decide on their selection?
Times allocated for training?Where would the training schedule fit in with their own club training and if some of these players are on county teams would it not just put more pressure on them?
Realistically the same commitment wouldn't be there from players as would be with their own clubs.
Several of these group teams that take part in the Cork championship are really only fulfilling fixtures and having spoken to some of these group players they find it a burden more so than anything else.
As for the transfer discussion- what is the answer to a player who has fallen out with his given club for,lets say,personal reasons,should he be punished by not being allowed to transfer to a different club or should he be left walk away from the GAA altogether? They have a 96 week ruling in Cork in that if you are determined to leave your own club you are not allowed play with any other club for that period of time,that way they reckon it put players of transferring unless they are totally set on doing so.
Maybe this might be a solution to the problem???
When was the group effort properly tried before? Don't mention St.Brendans as I'm proposing something on a far grander scale.
A 96 week ban is an absolute disgrace. We don't have a big enough problem to warrant banning players for two years. The GAA is struggling to compete with others sports at the moment as it is.0 -
deisebhoy17 wrote: »This debate about the group teams again. Does no one remember the group teams of the late 90s? There were 4 ,Gleann na Bride and Gleann na Deise in the west, Faughs in the east and Meaghars covering the city. It was a complete disaster. Many teams couldnt even field or were totally hammered by cricket scores. It didnt work then or wont work now.
It works in Cork and Kerry because the tradition has always been there. Its a big thing to represent your division. we dont just dont have it here
Unaware of this experiment. The way I'd approach it is to look for the issues, try and improve upon them and try again.
We have a situation now where senior clubs are being battered off the field in county quarter and semi finals. Lets not rule out potential options due to pure negativity.0 -
Unaware of this experiment. The way I'd approach it is to look for the issues, try and improve upon them and try again.
We have a situation now where senior clubs are being battered off the field in county quarter and semi finals. Lets not rule out potential options due to pure negativity.
It was going on from about 97 to maybe 01. Another big reason was that there was absolutely no one attending these games. I mean like a man and his dog!
I can see how the suggestion keep coming up but I think the main issues that need to be tackled first are
1. Making an allcounty intermediate A Grade. This in time will improve the standard of teams going up senior. and
2. Bring in some sort of Parish rule to stop the gap widening between the bigger and smaller clubs. If a player wants to move that should be dealt with on a case by case basis but players are jumping from club to club too freely at the moment its not right. Its especially not fair on the club which has put all the work into nurturing a player up through underage and then at the click of a finger the bigger club reaps the benefits.
You cant stop a player that wants to move but you can do is help change to common mindset0 -
Unaware of this experiment. The way I'd approach it is to look for the issues, try and improve upon them and try again.
We have a situation now where senior clubs are being battered off the field in county quarter and semi finals. Lets not rule out potential options due to pure negativity.
It was tried before and was disaster, I know a group of cappoquin, clashmore, rinn and a few more played Mt Sion inaround 98-99? that was the year that divisional teams were tried county wide, the players meet in the dressing room beforehand, went out and got hammered and that was it. maybe it might work well in places were established divisional teams have a tradition like cork (and i dont think it is wotking there that well anymore to be honest).
Lets face it, to anyone that is playing club hurling in Waterford over the last 15 years, it is hard enough to know when you are going to be playing with your club, nevermind having another team to accomidate in all that, it would be a total mess, the only way it would work is if the best players from junior/intermediate teams would have to play championship with their own club team, and then on the same weekend play for the divisional team as well. if a divisional team progressed to the later stages of the senior championship then it would hold up the lesser junior and intermediate grades.
it would be messy, it was tried before and didnt work, the weekends arent there for it and we have a hard enough time fitting in championship games in the present format0 -
deisebhoy17 wrote: »Not as much but it has started to. It started with the big city clubs poaching from smaller clubs but clubs from the west have started following suit now aswell. Examples like Paul Murray Tourin to Cappoquin a couple years back (when Tourin were still junior and Cappoquin were trying to win the intermediate) and a young Kearney lad from the Brickeys who was very highly rated transferred into Dungarvan who were winning all around them at the time.There are numerous other examples and these players are totally within their rights to do what they did, basically because there is no parish rule in this county. You basically have the freedom to play for whoever you like while other counties certain criteria has to be met and the smaller clubs arent getting screwed over as much
I dont think that Paul Murray moving from Tourin to Cappoquin was a case of poaching to be honest, for one unlike many of the other transfers (like the last four portlaw hurlers to win a munster minor hurling medals playing senior with mt sion, Harris, Kirwan, OShea and Dee). For one Paul Murray would have played all his underage hurling with Cappoquin underage, he moved at a time when Cappoquin were terrible and tourin were on the up with some good young players. Tourin are now on recent results a better side then Cappoquin.
I must stress I dont know him or his reasons, but the move from Tourin to Cappoquin doesnt makes sense as a case of someone trying to raise there profile, and Cappoquin were going so bad back then that i doubt they were in a position to poach anyone. maybe if he joined Lismore it would have been a bit different
I think it was probably more to do with wanting to play on the same team as friends growing up.
Interestingly you mention parish rule, if parish rule came in Cappoquin and tourin would have to play together as it is the one parish.0 -
Parish Rule cannot work in Waterford because it cannot work in the city. Not only are the players living all over town, but some of the clubs have even moved sticks to other parts of the city.
Yes the group teams may have been a disaster, but we still haven't been given a reason why. They were obviously approached in a very unprofessional manner. Probably not enough clubs were involved either, not enough critical mass.
If you look at the city and it's environs just as an example, there are eight junior and intermediate hurling clubs, and another two in the form of Dunhill and Roanmore if you're looking at a premier intermediate. Personally I find it hard to believe that you wouldn't be able to get 20+ guys from 10 clubs who would be interested in playing senior hurling or football.
Regarding lads having games clashing - we're hardly snowed under with games in Waterford. Players here play about a quarter of the games players in other counties get, particularly if you're unfortunate to be playing junior or intermediate. I don't think I'm exaggerating that you could be looking at 3-5 games per year!
If you look at Cork and Kerry, yes they are bigger counties, but therefore they should also have far bigger issues regarding fixture congestion - but they get on with it. If you look at both counties recent All Ireland winning teams, both had several of their top players, who are also some of the top players in the country, coming from junior clubs.0 -
Parish Rule cannot work in Waterford because it cannot work in the city. Not only are the players living all over town, but some of the clubs have even moved sticks to other parts of the city.
Yes the group teams may have been a disaster, but we still haven't been given a reason why. They were obviously approached in a very unprofessional manner. Probably not enough clubs were involved either, not enough critical mass.
If you look at the city and it's environs just as an example, there are eight junior and intermediate hurling clubs, and another two in the form of Dunhill and Roanmore if you're looking at a premier intermediate. Personally I find it hard to believe that you wouldn't be able to get 20+ guys from 10 clubs who would be interested in playing senior hurling or football.
Regarding lads having games clashing - we're hardly snowed under with games in Waterford. Players here play about a quarter of the games players in other counties get, particularly if you're unfortunate to be playing junior or intermediate. I don't think I'm exaggerating that you could be looking at 3-5 games per year!
If you look at Cork and Kerry, yes they are bigger counties, but therefore they should also have far bigger issues regarding fixture congestion - but they get on with it. If you look at both counties recent All Ireland winning teams, both had several of their top players, who are also some of the top players in the country, coming from junior clubs.
Here are the reasons i think that the group teams didnt work previously. (well one of the group teams that i saw up close and personal)
- There wasnt enough time available, with commitments to their own clubs, no time was there for training etc.
- in these circumstances it was a shambles, the players had no chance playing at a higher grade, who wants to play in those circumstances?
- There is not enough weekends to introduce these new teams, take a look at the club situation in waterford for the last 15 years, it totally plays second fiddle to the county team, Clubs can go 7-8 weeks without a match, 2 matches over four months, the summer gone... it has improved in recent years but for a group team to work then it stalls the intermediate and junior games further, which in turn makes these clubs suffer0 -
The only sollution to this problem would be to do what every other successful county does and introduce divisional sides into the senior hurling championship that allows players from smaller intermediate and junior clubs to join together to allow the better players in these clubs to experience senior hurling against the best clubs in the county. This then would allow players to remain with the home club and play senior hurling.
Kilkenny don't do this and they aren't doing too badly0 -
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Local_Chap wrote: »Kilkenny don't do this and they aren't doing too badly
Nor do Tipp or Galway, so you have Galway who are the most successfull county in club championships and the top two intercounty teams that dont use that system.0
This discussion has been closed.
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