Waterford GAA Discussion Thread 2011-2012

noiniho · 10-05-2012 12:19pm

Local_Chap wrote: »

Kilkenny don't do this and they aren't doing too badly

Divisional sides might work in the bigger counties, Waterford is too small, As you say, and it is stating the bleeding obvious, we should look to Kilkeeny for the template.

Which in fairness i think we have, or at least we are moving in the right direction.

Its all about getting young lads as much quality coaching as possible from the age of five from their clubs, coupled with and complimented by a strong primary school teams / competitions and then obviously secondary school teams coaching.

then have as many countywide competitions underage to keep lads hurling for as much of the year as possible and getting exposed to players from all over the county of a similiar standard.

in fairness this is being done at the moment and that good work needs to continue.

Instead of introducing new teams (that no-one cares about) into the equation, I think what needs to be focused on are the clubs that are already there, then try and train up as many underage coaches as possible from each club to what are considered to be best practice techniques for training kids these days.

the standard of underage hurling in Waterford has increased no end since the '90's, back then you would train and play challenges for a few weeks, play championship, if you got knocked out that was your hurling over for the year. the teams that reached the knock out stages progressed. year on year the gap would widen.
Now lads are playing all year round in different competitions, and the benefits are obvious from out underage teams.

Mol an oige agus tiocfaidh si

alllcounty · 10-05-2012 1:54pm

noiniho wrote: »

Divisional sides might work in the bigger counties, Waterford is too small, As you say, and it is stating the bleeding obvious, we should look to Kilkeeny for the template.

Which in fairness i think we have, or at least we are moving in the right direction.

Its all about getting young lads as much quality coaching as possible from the age of five from their clubs, coupled with and complimented by a strong primary school teams / competitions and then obviously secondary school teams coaching.

then have as many countywide competitions underage to keep lads hurling for as much of the year as possible and getting exposed to players from all over the county of a similiar standard.

in fairness this is being done at the moment and that good work needs to continue.

Instead of introducing new teams (that no-one cares about) into the equation, I think what needs to be focused on are the clubs that are already there, then try and train up as many underage coaches as possible from each club to what are considered to be best practice techniques for training kids these days.

the standard of underage hurling in Waterford has increased no end since the '90's, back then you would train and play challenges for a few weeks, play championship, if you got knocked out that was your hurling over for the year. the teams that reached the knock out stages progressed. year on year the gap would widen.
Now lads are playing all year round in different competitions, and the benefits are obvious from out underage teams.

Mol an oige agus tiocfaidh si

Underage standards have come on greatly, especially in the last 4 years. But we still have the problem of intermediate champions coming up to senior and they are totally out of their depth. Compare that to Kilkenny where Danesfort and Dicksboro have come up to senior in the last 2 years and are very competitive from playing in a county wide intermediate league and championship. The problem is with the intermediate structure and until that changes then clubs not in the top 8 in the county will always lag behind. Intermediate clubs coming together this year to form a league was an improvement giving these clubs more than 5 competive games per year but the structure is still divided into a west waterford and east waterford format thereby preventing intermediate clubs from either side of the county playing each other in a competitive league / championship. The saftey net for these teams is too big, and unless the team is very poor will it go down to junior. Only when the organising of an inclusive county intermediate structure similar to the senior structure will the standard of games improve for these teams.

noiniho · 10-05-2012 2:15pm

alllcounty wrote: »

Underage standards have come on greatly, especially in the last 4 years. But we still have the problem of intermediate champions coming up to senior and they are totally out of their depth. Compare that to Kilkenny where Danesfort and Dicksboro have come up to senior in the last 2 years and are very competitive from playing in a county wide intermediate league and championship. The problem is with the intermediate structure and until that changes then clubs not in the top 8 in the county will always lag behind. Intermediate clubs coming together this year to form a league was an improvement giving these clubs more than 5 competive games per year but the structure is still divided into a west waterford and east waterford format thereby preventing intermediate clubs from either side of the county playing each other in a competitive league / championship. The saftey net for these teams is too big, and unless the team is very poor will it go down to junior. Only when the organising of an inclusive county intermediate structure similar to the senior structure will the standard of games improve for these teams.

I agree all levels of hurling should be county wide in waterford in my opinion. intermediate should definitely be county wide, some of the results seen last weekened in the west, in all honesty some of those teams are better off junior, as it stands the Western/Eastern champions will play about 2-3 decent teams each (the rest of the games are pretty much cake walks) before meeting in a county final. if it was an all county championship, they would have to play twice that, as well as the two best teams from the county would play in the county final whether they both be from the East or both from the West or whatever, instead of this East - West buffering zone.

Every championship should be set up so that the most likely outcome is that the two best teams play in the final, the East west divide doesnt gaurantee this no matter what grade it is employed

zol 2 · 10-05-2012 2:32pm

Some great points being made but the major stumbling block to an all county junior and intermediate championship is getting rid of the western and eastern boards and until that's done the championships i feel will stay the same. Too many cosy"jobs for the boys!"for this to happen anytime soon!!

anbodhran · 10-05-2012 2:38pm

Yes to an all county intermediate, but no to an all county junior. Perhaps for the junior proper, but the junior attached teams have enough trouble getting lads to tog out without having the potential to be travelling large distances for games.

You actually have a situation now where the likes of DLS and Ballygunner's second sides are among the better intermediate sides also, which doesn't help either.

noiniho · 10-05-2012 2:40pm

zol 2 wrote: »

Some great points being made but the major stumbling block to an all county junior and intermediate championship is getting rid of the western and eastern boards and until that's done the championships i feel will stay the same. Too many cosy"jobs for the boys!"for this to happen anytime soon!!

Ya I was going to mention that in my last post as well. that is certainly how it seems looking in, but in saying that I have never even been to a board meeting, so I am not really in a position to criticise them

In saying that I am not sure what role each divisional baord carry out seperate from each other that one entity couldnt just do.

mickmcl09 · 10-05-2012 4:08pm

Amalgamations are not the way to go. Although, in my experience they don't hold up fixtures because players will prioritise their own club first, the clubs / players literally play 'lip service' to the amalgamation ie it's a pain in the at$€, but they turn up and with a 'sure who cares if we get beaten' attitude.

1. Tighten up the transfer policy, I've seen nothing like it in Galway, Clare, Tipp, Limerick or Kilkenny, like what goes on in Waterford particularly with particular city teams cherry picking. Gaa is a parochial game. This loose transfer policy has to be effecting some teams very badly and morale in some clubs must be very low. I don't like to see it myself.

2. Fixture congestion is a problem in many counties but in Waterford, which not not a very big county, you have an East and West split, this makes the congestion issue even more complicated.

3. Have one board instead of an East and a West. Every division from underage and right up could be made more competitive as it would be easier to categorise teams into divisions where they wouldn't get beaten out the door. This would feed right up to senior and eventually you'd have bigger number of competitive sides, hence you'd hope it would reduce the number of players with the urge to transfer.

Easier said that done I'd imagine.

hardybuck · 10-05-2012 4:44pm

Has anyone got any genuine evidence of city clubs cherry picking players?

My understanding is that even when the likes of Mount Sion and Ballygunner were at their most active in this area, they didn't approach players, but they didn't necessarily turn them down either.

Also, how many players are we talking about here. Is it the odd player here or there or what are we talking about? I'm not aware of too many of the top players who've moved clubs.

mickmcl09 · 10-05-2012 5:19pm

hardybuck wrote: »

Has anyone got any genuine evidence of city clubs cherry picking players?

My understanding is that even when the likes of Mount Sion and Ballygunner were at their most active in this area, they didn't approach players, but they didn't necessarily turn them down either.

Also, how many players are we talking about here. Is it the odd player here or there or what are we talking about? I'm not aware of too many of the top players who've moved clubs.

Agree entirely, nobody going to say they approached a player for a start and the other part of that is, that it is the player who initially has to make the application and then the case (if required) to transfer.

It simply shouldn't be allowed to be done so easily and each applicant should be assessed on a case by case basis.

I think the underlying factor is the competitiveness of clubs at all levels and that you should do away with the east / west division to deal with this.

mccarthy37 · 10-05-2012 8:21pm

Minor Hurling play-off Clare 0-18 Cork 1-9. Big win for Clare tonight no goals for them though, they scored three against Waterford last week, we have a lot of work to do to keep Tip from scoring goals.

hurler on de ditch · 10-05-2012 8:27pm

alllcounty wrote: »

Underage standards have come on greatly, especially in the last 4 years. But we still have the problem of intermediate champions coming up to senior and they are totally out of their depth. Compare that to Kilkenny where Danesfort and Dicksboro have come up to senior in the last 2 years and are very competitive from playing in a county wide intermediate league and championship. The problem is with the intermediate structure and until that changes then clubs not in the top 8 in the county will always lag behind. Intermediate clubs coming together this year to form a league was an improvement giving these clubs more than 5 competive games per year but the structure is still divided into a west waterford and east waterford format thereby preventing intermediate clubs from either side of the county playing each other in a competitive league / championship. The saftey net for these teams is too big, and unless the team is very poor will it go down to junior. Only when the organising of an inclusive county intermediate structure similar to the senior structure will the standard of games improve for these teams.

well said i totally agree

deisebhoy17 · 10-05-2012 9:52pm

hardybuck wrote: »

My understanding is that even when the likes of Mount Sion and Ballygunner were at their most active in this area, they didn't approach players, but they didn't necessarily turn them down either.

Also, how many players are we talking about here. Is it the odd player here or there or what are we talking about? I'm not aware of too many of the top players who've moved clubs.

When Mount sion were winning counties for fun in the late 90s to mid naughties there was loads of outsiders from smaller clubs. Anthony Kirwan, Ger Harris, Fintan O'Shea (Portlaw) Nicky Jacob (St Saviours) Micheal White (Dunhill) and more recently John Dee and Jason Phelan have transferred in. De la Salle currently have Jack Kennedy & Conan Watt as 2 key players for them and as for Ballygunner, they could put out a team of outsiders on their own of players who represented them in the last 15 years. I doubt theres any other county in the country where this goes on as strong.
This is not to mention many transfers occurring at underage level aswell.

glick6 · 10-05-2012 10:20pm

Well lads, any predictions for the weekend? Looking forward to hopefully a couple of tight games. Particularly dls and fourmilewater and passage an abbeyside.

deisebhoy17 · 10-05-2012 10:28pm

mccarthy37 wrote: »

Minor Hurling play-off Clare 0-18 Cork 1-9. Big win for Clare tonight no goals for them though, they scored three against Waterford last week, we have a lot of work to do to keep Tip from scoring goals.

Agreed. Chances are we'll have a completely new FB line for the semi. Still rather we found these flaws when we did, if wed played Kerry the first round we mightened have learned as much. At least we'll have that over Tipp.

Cork are really slipping at minor level in recent years. Caps off a dismal week for them overall

Black Suir · 10-05-2012 10:57pm

hardybuck wrote: »

Very difficult shouldn't mean that you don't bother.

I'd let every team below senior in. The likes of Kerry have strong group teams and it has improved their championship. I don't think a group team could win anything, but they should be competitive.

Some have won their County Final in recent years in Football. I dont see it do them any harm. How many Munster and All-Ireland finals have they appeared in, as a result of leaving players in lower grades play in the highest standard of football in the county. We dont allow groups teams and when we have them, things are made difficult for them and all sorts of politics comes into it. How many Munster (ok a few) finals and more over All-Irelands do we appear in.

DublinGAA96 · 11-05-2012 7:48am

Lads is there a round of senior hurling championship games this weekend?

deisedub · 11-05-2012 8:45am

DublinGAA96 wrote: »

Lads is there a round of senior hurling championship games this weekend?

There is a full list of games venues and times on the Waterford gaa Facebook page for this weekend.

Mountainlad · 11-05-2012 10:44am

Black Suir wrote: »

Some have won their County Final in recent years in Football. I dont see it do them any harm. How many Munster and All-Ireland finals have they appeared in, as a result of leaving players in lower grades play in the highest standard of football in the county. We dont allow groups teams and when we have them, things are made difficult for them and all sorts of politics comes into it. How many Munster (ok a few) finals and more over All-Irelands do we appear in.

Are you saying the group teams are the reason their County team is so successful?

I wouldn't

hardybuck · 11-05-2012 11:07am

Mountainlad wrote: »

Are you saying the group teams are the reason their County team is so successful?

I wouldn't

Bit of a stretch to say it is the reason behind the success, but it must help to have more players playing club football at the highest level. Same goes for Cork.

Kerry have an odd setup. There is the county championship which is for club sides and the five divisional sides, and then the club championship which is only for clubs. They also have divisional championships. Waterford clubs play about 5-10 games per year and we complain about fixture congestion!

The following from Kerry are current All Ireland winners who play on Group sides:

Killian Young - 3 All Irelands
Tomas O'Se - 5 AI'S
Marc O'Se - 1
Anthony Maher - 1
Paul Galvin - 4
Darren O'Sullivan - 3
Declan O'Sullivan - 4
Aidan O'Mahony - 4
Seamus Scanlon - 4
Donnacha Walsh - 2
Tom O'Sullivan - 5

Off the top of my head 8-9 of the Cork side are in a similar situation coming from junior or intermediate clubs.

Mountainlad · 11-05-2012 11:27am

hardybuck wrote: »

Bit of a stretch to say it is the reason behind the success, but it must help to have more players playing club football at the highest level. Same goes for Cork.

Kerry have an odd setup. There is the county championship which is for club sides and the five divisional sides, and then the club championship which is only for clubs. They also have divisional championships. Waterford clubs play about 5-10 games per year and we complain about fixture congestion!

The following from Kerry are current All Ireland winners who play on Group sides:
Killian Young - 3 All Irelands

Tomas O'Se - 5 AI'S

Marc O'Se - 1

Anthony Maher - 1

Paul Galvin - 4

Darren O'Sullivan - 3

Declan O'Sullivan - 4

Aidan O'Mahony - 4

Seamus Scanlon - 4

Donnacha Walsh - 2

Tom O'Sullivan - 5

Off the top of my head 8-9 of the Cork side are in a similar situation coming from junior or intermediate clubs.

Well worth remembering that Tomas and Marc both played for an Gaeltacht when they got to the All-Ireland final in 2003 or 2004.

But I both are bigger counties, and that's a football comparison.

When was the last time a group team won the County Hurling Championship in Cork?

Kilkenny and Tipp, as has been mentioned, don't have group teams.

Maybe less clubs would be a better way to go about it. Pride should not be a barrier to sense prevailing. Tourin and Cappoquin contested the Western Intermediate Final last year. On their own, either side would be hockeyed in the Senior championship, but I believe that if they joined together they could be competitive and they would grow as a team as both have promising young players. On their own though there is a limit to their ambition. Same with Tallow and Shamrocks I feel.

There are a few other clubs like Modeligo, Colligan, St Marys Touraneena, Ballinameela etc who have group team when they are younger and then split up when they reach adult level. I think these teams should just be joined, as it doesn't benefit them the fact that they may only get 3 or 4 off an u21 team that actually play for their club. Doesn't make sense. I don't care what people say about established parish boundaries, the fact is these areas as a whole are too small to have their own individual teams. Of course, any bitterness between these areas might prevent this from potentially happening, not that I think it will actually happen ever.

The problem with group teams the extent to which they have them in Kerry (or say Thomas McDonaghs which comprised of 9 teams in the Tipp Senior football team) is it is grossly unfair on other teams. I know someone who plays in Kerry and they don't like it at all. I'm sure some would argue that there a big population bases in Tralee and Killarney, and if the same argument was made here people would talk about the population in the City but that would exclude teams like Dingle in Kerry or Ballyduff Upper, Tallow and Fourmilewater here where there aren't many people living.

I would be against group teams based on what I've said and from what people say about past attempts it sounds like they weren't taken seriously, and I think it devalues the championship as well. A lot of people seem to think that the Club Championship is the Inter-County teams b*tch and that it should be setup to accomodate the Senior team in what ever way possible, and nobody cares too much as long as the County team is successful. Very inconsiderate of your ordinary club player.

mccarthy37 · 11-05-2012 2:31pm

Waterford will play Dublin in a hurling challenge Monday next, time and venue unknown anybody with any information on this. On the subject of transfers Jack Kennedy playing with De La Salle John O'leary playing with Mount Sion this is disastrous news for Ballyduff Lower this year. I heard a lot of rumours of discontent last year but I taught this could be sorted out being a small club, it should have been. What a pity as they were really making great progress a few years back. Its hard enough playing bigger more successful clubs but with them pooching some of their best players makes it nigh on impossible. This has been going on for years in Waterford to the detriment of smaller clubs doesn't seem fair does it.

mccarthy37 · 11-05-2012 2:37pm

Waterford will play Dublin in a hurling challenge Monday next, time and venue unknown anybody with any information on this. On the subject of transfers Jack Kennedy playing with De La Salle John O'leary playing with Mount Sion this is disastrous news for Ballyduff Lower this year. I heard a lot of rumours of discontent last year but I taught this could be sorted out being a small club, it should have been. What a pity as they were really making great progress a few years back. Its hard enough playing bigger more successful clubs but with them pooching some of their best players makes it nigh on impossible. This has been going on for years in Waterford to the detriment of smaller clubs doesn't seem fair does it.

Mountainlad · 11-05-2012 2:43pm

mccarthy37 wrote: »

Waterford will play Dublin in a hurling challenge Monday next, time and venue unknown anybody with any information on this. On the subject of transfers Jack Kennedy playing with De La Salle John O'leary playing with Mount Sion this is disastrous news for Ballyduff Lower this year. I heard a lot of rumours of discontent last year but I taught this could be sorted out being a small club, it should have been. What a pity as they were really making great progress a few years back. Its hard enough playing bigger more successful clubs but with them pooching some of their best players makes it nigh on impossible. This has been going on for years in Waterford to the detriment of smaller clubs doesn't seem fair does it.

A point well made...

mccarthy37 wrote: »

Waterford will play Dublin in a hurling challenge Monday next, time and venue unknown anybody with any information on this. On the subject of transfers Jack Kennedy playing with De La Salle John O'leary playing with Mount Sion this is disastrous news for Ballyduff Lower this year. I heard a lot of rumours of discontent last year but I taught this could be sorted out being a small club, it should have been. What a pity as they were really making great progress a few years back. Its hard enough playing bigger more successful clubs but with them pooching some of their best players makes it nigh on impossible. This has been going on for years in Waterford to the detriment of smaller clubs doesn't seem fair does it.

...A point well made

mccarthy37 · 11-05-2012 2:59pm

Mountainlad wrote: »

A point well made...

...A point well made

Lets just call it a mistake, you weren't a Christian Brother in Mount Slaughter in another life by any chance.

Mountainlad · 11-05-2012 3:01pm

mccarthy37 wrote: »

Lets just call it a mistake, you weren't a Christian Brother in Mount Slaughter in another life by any chance.

If only!

Haha, sorry I'm just really bored!

I'd agree though, Ballyduff Lowers fall from grace has been dramatic. They hvae nothing coming through at underage either.

hardybuck · 11-05-2012 3:23pm

mccarthy37 wrote: »

Waterford will play Dublin in a hurling challenge Monday next, time and venue unknown anybody with any information on this. On the subject of transfers Jack Kennedy playing with De La Salle John O'leary playing with Mount Sion this is disastrous news for Ballyduff Lower this year. I heard a lot of rumours of discontent last year but I taught this could be sorted out being a small club, it should have been. What a pity as they were really making great progress a few years back. Its hard enough playing bigger more successful clubs but with them pooching some of their best players makes it nigh on impossible. This has been going on for years in Waterford to the detriment of smaller clubs doesn't seem fair does it.

Again, define poaching. Poaching defines that the clubs made a move and coerced both lads out from their home club.

From my understanding, Ballyduff were falling apart with the prospect of dropping down to junior. The lads decided they were better off moving on, Jack deciding on DLS and O'Leary on Mount Sion. If either of the clubs had been poaching they would probably have got both of them.

I've sympathy for the club, but I've sympathy for the players as well. It is very unfair if you're stuck with a messy and disorganised club, or maybe you are a footballer in a hurling club, or even a hurler in a footballing club. If a lad doesn't want to play for your club, what is the point having him anyway?

suitcasepink · 11-05-2012 4:10pm

We all heading to the Open Training night thing tonight then?
...
No, just me?
>.<

I wonder will I get a prize for the oldest person attending whos not there to accompany children..

mccarthy37 · 11-05-2012 4:50pm

hardybuck wrote: »

Again, define poaching. Poaching defines that the clubs made a move and coerced both lads out from their home club.

From my understanding, Ballyduff were falling apart with the prospect of dropping down to junior. The lads decided they were better off moving on, Jack deciding on DLS and O'Leary on Mount Sion. If either of the clubs had been poaching they would probably have got both of them.

I've sympathy for the club, but I've sympathy for the players as well. It is very unfair if you're stuck with a messy and disorganised club, or maybe you are a footballer in a hurling club, or even a hurler in a footballing club. If a lad doesn't want to play for your club, what is the point having him anyway?

Over the years plenty of players have been approached by big city clubs well and good Jack and John left of their own accord I stand corrected. Its still a great pity to see a club fall by the wayside you don't improve a club by leaving but I understand what you are saying. Ballyduf's loss is a gain for two big city clubs. Parrish rule would solve this problem do you think.

hardybuck · 11-05-2012 4:58pm

mccarthy37 wrote: »

Over the years plenty of players have been approached by big city clubs well and good Jack and John left of their own accord I stand corrected. Its still a great pity to see a club fall by the wayside you don't improve a club by leaving but I understand what you are saying. Ballyduf's loss is a gain for two big city clubs. Parrish rule would solve this problem do you think.

I don't agree with forcing guys to play for a club. It makes sense for the current U16 setup to be parish rule, but adults should be free to do as they please. Many people won't agree with that.

Take another player. Tony Grey. DLS player, I'd say he won a good few underage county A medals and a couple of Feile titles with them. Lost an Intermediate county final and then joined Stradbally. I heard that a couple of other handy young lads were being eyed up by other senior football clubs at different ends of the county at the time also.

Grey goes on to win a few senior county medals with Stradbally, captains Waterford, and DLS are still knocking around intermediate. I'm sure he had his reasons. Goes both ways.

mccarthy37 · 11-05-2012 5:09pm

hardybuck wrote: »

I don't agree with forcing guys to play for a club. It makes sense for the current U16 setup to be parish rule, but adults should be free to do as they please. Many people won't agree with that.

Take another player. Tony Grey. DLS player, I'd say he won a good few underage county A medals and a couple of Feile titles with them. Lost an Intermediate county final and then joined Stradbally. I heard that a couple of other handy young lads were being eyed up by other senior football clubs at different ends of the county at the time also.

Grey goes on to win a few senior county medals with Stradbally, captains Waterford, and DLS are still knocking around intermediate. I'm sure he had his reasons. Goes both ways.

Tony is a great footballer did very well with a great Stradbally team point well made

telecaster · 11-05-2012 5:56pm

So, will ye be giving Limerick a bating Sunday week?

Fireball07 · 11-05-2012 5:58pm

telecaster wrote: »

So, will ye be giving Limerick a bating Sunday week?

Deise Hurler · 11-05-2012 6:03pm

hardybuck wrote: »

Again, define poaching. Poaching defines that the clubs made a move and coerced both lads out from their home club.

From my understanding, Ballyduff were falling apart with the prospect of dropping down to junior. The lads decided they were better off moving on, Jack deciding on DLS and O'Leary on Mount Sion. If either of the clubs had been poaching they would probably have got both of them.

I've sympathy for the club, but I've sympathy for the players as well. It is very unfair if you're stuck with a messy and disorganised club, or maybe you are a footballer in a hurling club, or even a hurler in a footballing club. If a lad doesn't want to play for your club, what is the point having him anyway?

Have little sympathy for Ballyduff. When they were up senior they poached players from neighbouring clubs like Dunhill, Butlerstown and Kill.

mickmcl09 · 11-05-2012 6:16pm

hardybuck wrote: »

I don't agree with forcing guys to play for a club. It makes sense for the current U16 setup to be parish rule, but adults should be free to do as they please. Many people won't agree with that.

There's a rule there that most counties adopt where if you don't play for 96 weeks, you don't need a transfer but some counties still look for proof that the player is living/working in the environs of the new club.

Like I said earlier, it would be very difficult to prove a club is poaching players but at the very least, in a round about way, the players are poached by default through the county boards inability to monitor the transfers. Clubs and players know this.

I for one don't agree that Adults should be aloud to play with whoever they like, players may as well start getting paid which opens a right can of worms, that's not to say that won't happen in the future either. The transfer policy in Waterford makes a mockery for what the GAA and it's parochial roots stand for.

And another thing, these incoming lads are what many would call blow-ins, yes, that attitude is still there. You're great if you deliver and they couldn't have you out the gate fast enough if you don't. Most of these guys are too young to realise this and it all ends in tears alot of the time and very often, you may as well be an outcast in your home parish to boot. It creates an awful lot of bad feeling all round.

No winners and nearly everybody loses.

On the subject of divisional teams, what goes on in Kerry is a tradition. I lived there for a number of years. Football is religion in many parts, with as many as 6 clubs in areas no bigger in area than Ballygunner, with tiny populations. Divisional teams are viewed differently down there. Yes it gives good Junior and intermediates a chance to be noticed but that's about all. 2 or 3 extra matches at a different level makes dam all difference to ability or to there championship. They have an excellent league structure with no divisional teams which is where most of their games take place IIRC.

hardybuck · 11-05-2012 6:54pm

mickmcl09 wrote: »

There's a rule there that most counties adopt where if you don't play for 96 weeks, you don't need a transfer but some counties still look for proof that the player is living/working in the environs of the new club.

Like I said earlier, it would be very difficult to prove a club is poaching players but at the very least, in a round about way, the players are poached by default through the county boards inability to monitor the transfers. Clubs and players know this.

I for one don't agree that Adults should be aloud to play with whoever they like, players may as well start getting paid which opens a right can of worms, that's not to say that won't happen in the future either. The transfer policy in Waterford makes a mockery for what the GAA and it's parochial roots stand for.

And another thing, these incoming lads are what many would call blow-ins, yes, that attitude is still there. You're great if you deliver and they couldn't have you out the gate fast enough if you don't. Most of these guys are too young to realise this and it all ends in tears alot of the time and very often, you may as well be an outcast in your home parish to boot. It creates an awful lot of bad feeling all round.

No winners and nearly everybody loses.

On the subject of divisional teams, what goes on in Kerry is a tradition. I lived there for a number of years. Football is religion in many parts, with as many as 6 clubs in areas no bigger in area than Ballygunner, with tiny populations. Divisional teams are viewed differently down there. Yes it gives good Junior and intermediates a chance to be noticed but that's about all. 2 or 3 extra matches at a different level makes dam all difference to ability or to there championship. They have an excellent league structure with no divisional teams which is where most of their games take place IIRC.

Show me one other sport where you force a lad to play for a particular club for life? People will fall out, people will want to move on. The vast majority of people won't ever want to move, but this is the real world.

If a lad was 28 and had a bad falling out with his club he could be looking at retirement with that policy. If a young player had a falling out, you'd lose him to soccer or rugby and maybe never get him back. Its not practical.

Top drawer · 11-05-2012 7:05pm

John O leary sold his soul i think, at least jack kennedy joined de la salle who will be favourites to win the championship,, at 32 years of age he joined mt sion for nothing and sold his soul

deisebhoy17 · 11-05-2012 8:58pm

Mountainlad wrote: »

Maybe less clubs would be a better way to go about it. Pride should not be a barrier to sense prevailing. Tourin and Cappoquin contested the Western Intermediate Final last year. On their own, either side would be hockeyed in the Senior championship, but I believe that if they joined together they could be competitive and they would grow as a team as both have promising young players. On their own though there is a limit to their ambition. Same with Tallow and Shamrocks I feel.

There are a few other clubs like Modeligo, Colligan, St Marys Touraneena, Ballinameela etc who have group team when they are younger and then split up when they reach adult level. I think these teams should just be joined, as it doesn't benefit them the fact that they may only get 3 or 4 off an u21 team that actually play for their club. Doesn't make sense. I don't care what people say about established parish boundaries, the fact is these areas as a whole are too small to have their own individual teams. Of course, any bitterness between these areas might prevent this from potentially happening, not that I think it will actually happen ever.

my god your spouting a different class of rubbish today Mountainlad!! :eek:

You say 'pride is a barrier to progress? The reason these clubs will never emalgamate is due to bitterness between clubs?

The areas you say are 'too small to have their own clubs' seem to be doing Just fine, some are decent intermediate grade teams and some of them even field second teams. Some of them have won county titles in the last few years. Its not about bitterness between clubs like you see in soccer that drives the GAA on. Its about the community your from and representing that. And respecting your neighbours aswell which the vast majority of GAA members do.

So get rid of the small rural clubs to improve the standard of our county teams? to make sure only the really talented players are left playing the game? Your contradicting what you go on to say in your last paragraph. People are too caught up in wanting to see the county teams being successful they lose sight of what the GAA is really about.

deisebhoy17 · 11-05-2012 9:05pm

Top drawer wrote: »

John O leary sold his soul i think, at least jack kennedy joined de la salle who will be favourites to win the championship,, at 32 years of age he joined mt sion for nothing and sold his soul

ah lads give him a break. He owes that club nothing hes carried them for years.

Id be more cheesed off about young players who have come through the underage system at a club and after all the hard work done in nurturing them they move off to a bigger club who get to reap the benefits of the hard work done by another club

Mountainlad · 11-05-2012 10:37pm

deisebhoy17 wrote: »

my god your spouting a different class of rubbish today Mountainlad!! :eek:

You say 'pride is a barrier to progress? The reason these clubs will never emalgamate is due to bitterness between clubs?

The areas you say are 'too small to have their own clubs' seem to be doing Just fine, some are decent intermediate grade teams and some of them even field second teams. Some of them have won county titles in the last few years. Its not about bitterness between clubs like you see in soccer that drives the GAA on. Its about the community your from and representing that. And respecting your neighbours aswell which the vast majority of GAA members do.

So get rid of the small rural clubs to improve the standard of our county teams? to make sure only the really talented players are left playing the game? Your contradicting what you go on to say in your last paragraph. People are too caught up in wanting to see the county teams being successful they lose sight of what the GAA is really about.

Well Deisebhoy, how are you? Any news?

The clubs aren't big enough to justify their existence. Ok, maybe I shouldn't have mentioned all those that I did, I know Ballinameela are a decent sized club but Colligan are one team that I remember pulling out either last year or the year before because they couldn't field a team. In the Intermediate football championship. Hard to take the competition seriously when some teams can hardly field a team.

It's a matter of being a viable club. From a financial point of view too.

I would say pride in having their own team is probably more why they won't join, but there is definitely bitterness in certain areas, be under no illusions of that. I know of one young lad who was a very talented hurler, but wasn't let play for the club that represented his local area because they represented a neighbouring village and bore their name (his father didn't like the other crowd). That situation would arise again if some of them joined together.

When St Olivers players, for example, play together until they are 21, why are they then separated into different adult clubs? Doesn't make sense to me. I'm not 100% sure on what teams are combined to form Olivers but I know Ballinameela is one and from what I've seen they seem to get the best of the players. There is only a limited number other clubs will get from one of the St Olivers underage teams, so say they get as much as 5, what happens if only 1 of them stays playing? (which, considering the current economic climate, is becoming more and more likely)

I'm more interested in having credible Adult competitions, and having read what I said that's fairly clear, I don't really see the contradiction.

mickmcl09 · 11-05-2012 11:07pm

hardybuck wrote: »

Show me one other sport where you force a lad to play for a particular club for life? People will fall out, people will want to move on. The vast majority of people won't ever want to move, but this is the real world.

If a lad was 28 and had a bad falling out with his club he could be looking at retirement with that policy. If a young player had a falling out, you'd lose him to soccer or rugby and maybe never get him back. Its not practical.

Ah come on now, it's not like the GAA have moved the goalposts regarding transfer rules. Waterfords policy is lax to put it mildly. Even Dublin can keep a lid on transfers, as do most counties.

As for fallings out, sure you'd never have a club if fellas threw the bottle out of the pram and moved on, every time someone put their nose out of joint. I played with St Joseph's up in Clare in the 90's and the amount of rows between players out of sheer passion, you just couldn't count them, but there was a collective passion to win. Ask any top player in the country, and they'll all tell you that there's nothing like winning with your club.

As for fellas careers being over at 28, in fairness, I'd say far and few between. Any committed club hurler who looks after himself can hurl well into his thirties and if moving means that much, he'll keep himself in good nick. At the end of the day there's nothing stopping a player from moving house / job, then he has genuine cause for a transfer irrespective of his relationship with his home club.

As for losing a 28 yr old to rugby or soccer, like, come on, if being tied for 96 weeks was going to be the end of his career, he's not exactly going to light the rugby or soccer world on fire either. You can't have it both ways.

Top drawer · 11-05-2012 11:35pm

i have nothing personal with john o leary but i think he has hurled with the club all his life while they had good times, when the club needed someone like him to help them through the tough times he upped and left at the age of 32, he has played senior hurling for club and county, what more does he want to achieve by going to mount sion? because they wont win anything in my eyes. when he looks back at career in latter years i think he will regret it

deisebhoy17 · 11-05-2012 11:49pm

Mountainlad wrote: »

Well Deisebhoy, how are you? Any news?

The clubs aren't big enough to justify their existence. Ok, maybe I shouldn't have mentioned all those that I did, I know Ballinameela are a decent sized club but Colligan are one team that I remember pulling out either last year or the year before because they couldn't field a team. In the Intermediate football championship. Hard to take the competition seriously when some teams can hardly field a team.

It's a matter of being a viable club. From a financial point of view too.

I would say pride in having their own team is probably more why they won't join, but there is definitely bitterness in certain areas, be under no illusions of that. I know of one young lad who was a very talented hurler, but wasn't let play for the club that represented his local area because they represented a neighbouring village and bore their name (his father didn't like the other crowd). That situation would arise again if some of them joined together.

When St Olivers players, for example, play together until they are 21, why are they then separated into different adult clubs? Doesn't make sense to me. I'm not 100% sure on what teams are combined to form Olivers but I know Ballinameela is one and from what I've seen they seem to get the best of the players. There is only a limited number other clubs will get from one of the St Olivers underage teams, so say they get as much as 5, what happens if only 1 of them stays playing? (which, considering the current economic climate, is becoming more and more likely)

I'm more interested in having credible Adult competitions, and having read what I said that's fairly clear, I don't really see the contradiction.

The contradiction is where youve said: 'A lot of people seem to think that the Club Championship is the Inter-County teams b*tch and that it should be setup to accomodate the Senior team in what ever way possible, and nobody cares too much as long as the County team is successful. Very inconsiderate of your ordinary club player.' As you were calling for smaller clubs to be scrapped to improve the standard of the upper scale of our games I thought it was a bit hypocritical.
Anyway Ive said my piece youve said yours lets not get into a tit for tat argument. Youve taken strong exception to some of my opinions in the past so I couldnt let this one go when I saw it

deisebhoy17 · 12-05-2012 12:00am

mickmcl09 wrote: »

Even Dublin can keep a lid on transfers, as do most counties.

Great point. Remember the whole Eamonn Fennell affair? He wanted to leave O'Tooles a traditional hurling club with only a junior football team to join neighbouring St. Vincents, a traditional football powerhouse. O'Tooles wouldnt sign the page to let him go and he then refused to play, basically he was left without club football for the guts of 2 years, despite being a Dublin senior footballer. Transfers were virtually unheard of apart from country players joining clubs

The county board refused to get involved when they could have brokered a deal quite easy. It was making a strong statement that you wont hop around from club to club as easy as that. Im not saying it wasnt a ludicrous situation and it was a shabby way to treat the lad, not to mention it looking poorly on O'Tooles. But no doubt lads will think twice about jumping ship in future. O'Tooles eventually agreed to let him off as far as I know

Cake Man · 12-05-2012 10:59am

HillFarmer wrote: »

Waterford play Dublin in a challenge on Monday evening.

Anyone know where and what time its on.?

Buffers Alley in Wexford at 7.15 on Tuesday.

Mountainlad · 12-05-2012 11:59am

deisebhoy17 wrote: »

Great point. Remember the whole Eamonn Fennell affair? He wanted to leave O'Tooles a traditional hurling club with only a junior football team to join neighbouring St. Vincents, a traditional football powerhouse. O'Tooles wouldnt sign the page to let him go and he then refused to play, basically he was left without club football for the guts of 2 years, despite being a Dublin senior footballer. Transfers were virtually unheard of apart from country players joining clubs

The county board refused to get involved when they could have brokered a deal quite easy. It was making a strong statement that you wont hop around from club to club as easy as that. Im not saying it wasnt a ludicrous situation and it was a shabby way to treat the lad, not to mention it looking poorly on O'Tooles. But no doubt lads will think twice about jumping ship in future. O'Tooles eventually agreed to let him off as far as I know

I'd be inclined to think Fennell was hard done by. So was it really the right thing for them to do, to be so vigilant about this even though it was at the expense of one of their members? On a side note, great credit to him for surviving that, and he's still on the Dublin panel.

Also, one final thing, I didn't mean merging clubs together to help the Waterford Senior team, I mean strengthening the Senior/Intermediate/Junior championships without devaluing them by creating group teams (and before anything is said, combining two neighboring clubs would not be the same thing). It would in turn lead to a better Waterford team I'd imagine, bu the priority is to improve these competitions which makes it better for spectators, and players.

abbeysideFB4L · 12-05-2012 8:55pm

scores in tonights matches?

suitcasepink · 12-05-2012 9:00pm

abbeysideFB4L wrote: »

scores in tonights matches?

Abbeyside 2-17 passage 2-13
Tallow 1-13 Roanmore 0-16
Fourmilewater 0-18 De La Salle 1-10

Strange evening..

Scores courtesy of Waterford Gaa twitter https://twitter.com/#!/WaterfordGAA who must have heard my whinging and gave score updates :')

deisebhoy17 · 12-05-2012 10:06pm

deise_girl wrote: »

Abbeyside 2-17 passage 2-13
Tallow 1-13 Roanmore 0-16
Fourmilewater 0-18 De La Salle 1-10

Strange evening..

Scores courtesy of Waterford Gaa twitter https://twitter.com/#!/WaterfordGAA who must have heard my whinging and gave score updates :')

Big surprises allround! Fair play to Roanmore reading the comments here during the week they shouldnt even bother togging out

Top drawer · 12-05-2012 10:24pm

Alot of talk on this and on the paper about roanmore during week, talking about cutting them out of the championship! They just drew with the county finalists, and shud of won the game in my eyes

tus.maith · 12-05-2012 10:40pm

2 good games in Fraher Field.

Worrying, however, that Mullane looked so quiet, failed to score.

Foumilewater were impressive victors in the opening game with 5 points to spare over De la Salle, 0-18 to 1-10. There was little to choose between the teams in the opening 30 mins, but a great save by FMW goalkeeper denied Stephen Daniels a goal from the penalty spot just before the break. Craig Guiry, Diarmuid Wall and JAmie Barron had fine scores in the second half for FMW but while Jack Kennedy had a late goal for DLS, FMW finished stronger with good points from Shane Walsh to hold on for victory.

The second game provided some good hurling and lots of drama, before it eventually finished all square, Tallow1-13, Roanmore 0-16. Roanmore began brightly and Gavin O Brien had them 4 points to no score ahead early on. A Thomas Ryan goal brought Tallow back into the game bur Roanmore led at the break by 2 points, 11 to 1-6. The sides traded scores throughout the second half with Gavin O Brien contributing 12 points of the Roanmore total, 9 from frees. The teams were level on 60 mins and a Thomas Ryan point looked to have won the game for Tallow before Tommy Aldrige got a later and deserved equaliser for Roanmore.

In Walsh Park, it finished Abbeyside 2-17, Passage 2-13 in Walsh Park.

Waterford GAA Discussion Thread 2011-2012

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