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Shooting Forum - Firearms licencing information


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Journal.ie Article on firearms stats.

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  • 17-07-2014 8:41pm
    #1
    Cass
    Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 28,449 Mod ✭✭✭✭


    Here is the article.

    Numbers seem "odd".
    • It makes it look like there are 170,000 people with guns when it's only the amount of licenses. If you consider people with 2, 3, 4, 5+ firearms i think the number of people with guns would be closer to 100,000 or so. A population/gun level of 2% or so.
    • The terms used to describe their status is vague and not accurate to what they probably were/are.
    • Considering i was down for 13 guns on PULSE when i actually only had 6 i wonder just how accurate they really are.
    • I was also down for a gun that i exported years ago and they had the record for it. SO it was in two places at once
    • Do they include thefts from firearm dealers, plus as a person may own more than one that number of 355 stolen could infact be 1 or 2 RFDs, or no more than 50 - 60 households with multiple firearms.
    • Also the fact that a "relationship"" between illegal firearms and legal ones is once again made is annoying.
    • Then of course the usual crap from the uneducated under the article.
    Forum Charter - Useful Information - Photo thread: Hardware - Ranges by County - Hunting Laws/Important threads - Upcoming Events - RFDs by County

    If you see a problem post use the report post function. Click on the three dots on the post, select "FLAG" & let a Moderator deal with it.

    Moderators - Cass otmmyboy2 , CatMod - Shamboc , Admins - Beasty , mickeroo

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    #2
    bravestar
    Registered Users Posts: 1,082 ✭✭✭bravestar


    Poor journalism at best mate.


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    #3
    Cass
    Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 28,449 Mod ✭✭✭✭Cass


    I know, i know, and frankly i know better than to read it, but God it's annoying. Not the first, probably not the last.
    Forum Charter - Useful Information - Photo thread: Hardware - Ranges by County - Hunting Laws/Important threads - Upcoming Events - RFDs by County

    If you see a problem post use the report post function. Click on the three dots on the post, select "FLAG" & let a Moderator deal with it.

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    #4
    bravestar
    Registered Users Posts: 1,082 ✭✭✭bravestar


    Im shocked that there wasn't the standard pics of Ar15's and Ak's thrown in for good measure!:D


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    #5
    1shot16
    Registered Users Posts: 988 ✭✭✭1shot16


    Few machine guns,anti tank weapons ,air to air missiles and few lads robbing places with guns...yep thats us alright :rolleyes:

    How many guns do ye reckon in civilian hands...


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    #6
    clivej
    Registered Users Posts: 7,032 ✭✭✭clivej


    1shot16 wrote: »
    Few machine guns,anti tank weapons ,air to air missiles and few lads robbing places with guns...yep thats us alright :rolleyes:

    How many guns do ye reckon in civilian hands...

    220,000


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    #7
    Witcher
    Registered Users Posts: 14,518 ✭✭✭✭Witcher


    clivej wrote: »
    220,000

    More like 180,000 according to Alan Shatter a few months ago.


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    #8
    Cass
    Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 28,449 Mod ✭✭✭✭Cass


    The number of 170,000 has been floated for a few months so i don't doubt it's accurate. 220,000 was the number about 18-24 months ago, but every week i see more and more lads selling off their guns. Not trading, but getting out of the sport altogether.

    However as i said in my opening post i wonder just how accurate those figures truly are.
    Forum Charter - Useful Information - Photo thread: Hardware - Ranges by County - Hunting Laws/Important threads - Upcoming Events - RFDs by County

    If you see a problem post use the report post function. Click on the three dots on the post, select "FLAG" & let a Moderator deal with it.

    Moderators - Cass otmmyboy2 , CatMod - Shamboc , Admins - Beasty , mickeroo



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    #9
    Witcher
    Registered Users Posts: 14,518 ✭✭✭✭Witcher


    Found the quote after some searching, was in the Parliamentary Questions thread;
    Alan Shatter (Minister, Department of Justice, Equality and Defence; Dublin South, Fine Gael)
    I propose to take Questions Nos. 587 to 593, inclusive, together.
    I am informed by the Garda authorities that it is not possible to estimate the number of unlicensed / illegal firearms in circulation in the country. I am further informed that, as of 10 February 2014, the number of firearm certificates in the State is 178,191. I have sought a report from the Garda authorities in relation to the other information sought by the Deputy. I will be in contact with the Deputy when this information is to hand.


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    #10
    Cass
    Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 28,449 Mod ✭✭✭✭Cass


    Somewhat off topic, but it puts the s**ts on the theory of an organised voting group.

    We always referred to the 200,000+ votes from firearm owners. Other than the fact that it's actually less than 180,000 the key point is it's firearm certs and not people. As i said above considering the amount off people with multiple firearms then i t could be as low as 100,000. So the 2% thing really does limit any possible "lobby power" we think we have. I mean if we had nothing at 220,000 what do we have at less than half that?
    Forum Charter - Useful Information - Photo thread: Hardware - Ranges by County - Hunting Laws/Important threads - Upcoming Events - RFDs by County

    If you see a problem post use the report post function. Click on the three dots on the post, select "FLAG" & let a Moderator deal with it.

    Moderators - Cass otmmyboy2 , CatMod - Shamboc , Admins - Beasty , mickeroo



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    #11
    Sparks
    Registered Users Posts: 40,038 ✭✭✭✭Sparks


    Incidentally, the Garda Commissioner's report for 2013 is [url=https://us.v-cdn.net/6034073/uploads/attachments/17587/315008.pdf[/url]. There's nothing hugely scandalous in it, but it does have some nice things to say about us in the conclusion.


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    #12
    Dian Cecht
    Closed Accounts Posts: 338 ✭✭Dian Cecht


    Sparks wrote: »
    Incidentally, the Garda Commissioner's report for 2013 is here. There's nothing hugely scandalous in it, but it does have some nice things to say about us in the conclusion.

    I assume that's not the dreaded report we've all been waiting for is it?


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    #13
    Sparks
    Registered Users Posts: 40,038 ✭✭✭✭Sparks


    No, that's the statutorily required annual report from the commissioner. We've heard nothing about the review for several weeks now. Honestly, given the political situation, it wouldn't be surprising for it to die a death if it was just given room to do so and we stopped poking at it.


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    #14
    Cass
    Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 28,449 Mod ✭✭✭✭Cass


    Interesting enough, and as you said nothing "AHHHHHHHH" in it. One point that we touched on above was the numbers and in the stats section there is an admittance that the numbers are not accurate.

    With nearly 220,000 up to July of 2012 and that number being down to approx. 168,000 as of December 2013 shows a drop of almost, exactly, 50,000 firearm certs. Allowing for new applications after December 2013, and granted but unpaid certs the number would seem to suggest that the 178,000 quoted by Blay & sparks above is spot on. Still a serious drop of close to 40,000 in 18 months.

    One other issue was the reference to the FPU. The applauded their work, and while others may not agree i do, but yet more and more Supers seem to be turning to the Ballistics Dept for reasons we all know.
    Sparks wrote: »
    ........... but it does have some nice things to say about us in the conclusion.
    Was expecting the sarcasm meter to blow up, but you're right. Short, polite and to the point.
    Forum Charter - Useful Information - Photo thread: Hardware - Ranges by County - Hunting Laws/Important threads - Upcoming Events - RFDs by County

    If you see a problem post use the report post function. Click on the three dots on the post, select "FLAG" & let a Moderator deal with it.

    Moderators - Cass otmmyboy2 , CatMod - Shamboc , Admins - Beasty , mickeroo



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    #15
    Sparks
    Registered Users Posts: 40,038 ✭✭✭✭Sparks


    Cass wrote: »
    Still a serious drop of close to 40,000 in 18 months.
    Economic recession and emigration probably have a large part in that, and possibly the last of the paperwork from the 2009 changeover to the one-year licence shaking itself out as well.
    One other issue was the reference to the FPU. The applauded their work, and while others may not agree i do, but yet more and more Supers seem to be turning to the Ballistics Dept for reasons we all know.
    Yeah. If that can be read as support for one side over the other, it's a positive thing, but odds are the acting Commissioner doesn't even know it's a problem - it's not like she's not landed in the job during a quiet period!


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    #16
    Cass
    Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 28,449 Mod ✭✭✭✭Cass


    True.

    She would need to see court reports of who was called and then ask the question why the FPU, the unit set up for this purpose, was not used.
    Forum Charter - Useful Information - Photo thread: Hardware - Ranges by County - Hunting Laws/Important threads - Upcoming Events - RFDs by County

    If you see a problem post use the report post function. Click on the three dots on the post, select "FLAG" & let a Moderator deal with it.

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    #17
    Cass
    Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 28,449 Mod ✭✭✭✭Cass


    I'm probably nit picking here, but based on this most recent thread the claim that some applications take slightly longer than the three months with no mention of the colossal delays in substitutions would seem naive at best and completely erroneous at worst.
    Forum Charter - Useful Information - Photo thread: Hardware - Ranges by County - Hunting Laws/Important threads - Upcoming Events - RFDs by County

    If you see a problem post use the report post function. Click on the three dots on the post, select "FLAG" & let a Moderator deal with it.

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    #18
    Gorman700
    Registered Users Posts: 263 ✭✭Gorman700


    I've slowly but surely come to the conclusion that no matter what, this ridiculous PC country will never accept our sport. EVERY single bit of journalism I've ever seen about firearms in this country has either been negative or completely inaccurate or just lies.

    None of this surprises me at all. The general public are uneducated and miseducated on our sport as are the government, we don't stand a chance against general opinion or any sort of legislation.


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    #19
    1shot16
    Registered Users Posts: 988 ✭✭✭1shot16


    Another thing is years ago people had guns left in plain sight and in the and in the 70's and 80's there was always one or two in my mams kitchen and no one though nothing of it walking in as it was a out the country but now with the media and shootings in america i think people over here have such a negative view on people with guns.


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    #20
    Dian Cecht
    Closed Accounts Posts: 338 ✭✭Dian Cecht


    Have a look at this bit of rubbish. I wouldn't call it an article :eek:

    http://www.irishexaminer.com/ireland/one-firearm-stolen-or-lost-daily-over-last-four-years-275887.html


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    #21
    Cass
    Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 28,449 Mod ✭✭✭✭Cass


    Ah, there it is. The beloved AK. The staple rifle of any legitimate hunters collection. :rolleyes: :mad:

    Then they'll try and tell you they are not sensationalising the story.

    So between the AK, the bullsh*t about one gun a day being stolen (dividing the amount of time by the number of guns is not an accurate representation of the daily crime stats), and the usual overuse of the word weapon, it is a pure rubbish (and that is being very polite) "article".

    Typical uneducated, regurgitation of incorrect facts.
    Forum Charter - Useful Information - Photo thread: Hardware - Ranges by County - Hunting Laws/Important threads - Upcoming Events - RFDs by County

    If you see a problem post use the report post function. Click on the three dots on the post, select "FLAG" & let a Moderator deal with it.

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    #22
    BattleCorp
    Registered Users Posts: 11,758 ✭✭✭✭BattleCorp


    Dian Cecht wrote: »
    I assume that's not the dreaded report we've all been waiting for is it?

    No, the rewriting of the Commissioners Guidelines seems to be what we are dreading.


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    #23
    1shot16
    Registered Users Posts: 988 ✭✭✭1shot16


    Cass wrote: »
    Ah, there it is. The beloved AK. The staple rifle of any legitimate hunters collection. :rolleyes: :mad:

    Did you not noe this??? ;)


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    #24
    Cass
    Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 28,449 Mod ✭✭✭✭Cass


    Old age lad.

    I do forget at times when going deer stalking to bring the AK. You know with the RPG, the EBG (Evil Black Glock) and all it's hard to remember the AK. :rolleyes:
    Forum Charter - Useful Information - Photo thread: Hardware - Ranges by County - Hunting Laws/Important threads - Upcoming Events - RFDs by County

    If you see a problem post use the report post function. Click on the three dots on the post, select "FLAG" & let a Moderator deal with it.

    Moderators - Cass otmmyboy2 , CatMod - Shamboc , Admins - Beasty , mickeroo



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    #25
    yubabill1
    Registered Users Posts: 1,301 ✭✭✭yubabill1


    Dian Cecht wrote: »
    Have a look at this bit of rubbish. I wouldn't call it an article :eek:

    http://www.irishexaminer.com/ireland/one-firearm-stolen-or-lost-daily-over-last-four-years-275887.html

    H'mmm. I freely admit to being a cynic, but take this article, add the previous Facebook -I mean TheJournal.ie - one and the changes to Garda licence refusals/Pulse records noticed by Sparks.

    Now stir in the developments with 22LR non-factory 5shot pistol mags leading to a recent licence revocation and my inner skeptic says there could be a move to bring 22Lr pistols into the restricted category; hence the poor quality media article on gun thefts.

    Common practice to soften the opposition up with a few media lackeys/naïve cub reporters before causing the public more expense.

    Think of the high-level reporting around the property tax.


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    #26
    BattleCorp
    Registered Users Posts: 11,758 ✭✭✭✭BattleCorp


    Sparks wrote: »
    We've heard nothing about the review for several weeks now. Honestly, given the political situation, it wouldn't be surprising for it to die a death if it was just given room to do so and we stopped poking at it.

    It won't die a death. The Acting Garda Commissioner says in the report that she anticipates that the Commissioners Guidelines will be ammended in the coming weeks. It's there in the report.


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    #27
    Grizzly 45
    Registered Users Posts: 14,946 ✭✭✭✭Grizzly 45


    Time is a VERY flexible concept in Ireland Dont ya know.:P. t

    "If you want to keep someone away from your house, Just fire the shotgun through the door."

    Vice President [and former lawyer] Joe Biden Field& Stream Magazine interview Feb 2013 "



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    #28
    Sparks
    Registered Users Posts: 40,038 ✭✭✭✭Sparks


    BattleCorp wrote: »
    It won't die a death. The Acting Garda Commissioner says in the report that she anticipates that the Commissioners Guidelines will be ammended in the coming weeks. It's there in the report.

    Commissioner's Guidelines can be altered without going through the Minister's office (though in practice that'd be surprising to see). And an amendment to them isn't what was being drummed up as the end of all things; it was actual changes to the legislation that was being scaremongered about. That review is mentioned in the commissioner's report where she says she expects the review to be completed in the coming weeks. That's exactly the same answer that's been given for a while now; my best guess is that with the entire top of the hierarchy having gone through such upheaval, stuff like this is so far down the priority list as to be funny.

    Seriously, the previous Garda Commissioner was just effectively fired, the previous Minister for Justice was forced to resign, we don't yet have a replacement Commissioner and the lifetime of the current Government is in question, the UN Human Rights Commission just dragged the current Minister through a grilling and basicly condemned Ireland for Human Rights violations on a world stage, and everyone's now on holidays until the middle of September. Our stuff is important to us, but to absolutely everyone else, it is somewhere between dogcatcher appointments and paperclip acquisition forms in terms of importance. And that's a good thing.


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