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My Mother Got Fined

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124

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    #92
    Dravokivich
    Moderators, Category Moderators, Music Moderators, Politics Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 22,360 CMod ✭✭✭✭Dravokivich


    Eugene Norman wrote: »
    Same as a hold. You're wrong, the card doesn't deduct the full amount on entry ( the 4:70 is in brackets). If you were to miss the exit barrier it then deducts the actual amount after a time period. If you exit without validating in it deducts the 4:70.

    Somebody who is fined on a DART for not validating on has to pay.

    1) the maximum fare on exit.
    2) the actual fare.
    3) 100€ for not paying 2) even though they paid 1)

    Seems unfair to me.

    You're wrong. Look at your transaction history you'll see your credit balance adjust with each touch on/off. The credit is returned by means of a rebate and it looks none too disimilar to a topup.


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    #93
    Bob24
    Registered Users Posts: 10,905 ✭✭✭✭Bob24


    challengemaster wrote: »
    If you wanted to buy a television in PC World using a credit card, but their card machines are down - you can't just walk out of the store with the TV. You still have to pay for the goods/service. You just use a different means of doing so.

    Not a very fair comparison though. Here we are talking about a public service funded by taxpayer's money and expected to be available, and someone trying to use the payment method which is actively recommended by the operator of this service. If PC World decide to lose business because they are not in a rush to fix their machine, it is their private problem.

    Plus if your example could be extended to anything in life, I could say if you show-up at the doctor's with an emergency situation and their credit card machine is broken, tough on you if you didn't bring a secondary payment method - you'll have to find an alternative arrangement.


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    #94
    TheChizler
    Registered Users Posts: 9,426 ✭✭✭TheChizler


    Bob24 wrote: »
    Not a very fair comparison though. Here we are talking about a public service funded by taxpayer's money and expected to be available, and someone trying to use the payment method which is actively recommended by the operator of this service..
    To the best of our knowledge there were four validators in the area, one of which wasn't working (presumably the rest were), and there was a working one in close proximity to the out of service one. So that service was very much available.


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    #95
    Bob24
    Registered Users Posts: 10,905 ✭✭✭✭Bob24


    TheChizler wrote: »
    To the best of our knowledge there were four validators in the area, one of which wasn't working (presumably the rest were), and there was a working one in close proximity to the out of service one. So that service was very much available.

    Sure, agreed if it was the case there was no excuse for not paying ... if you look at the post I quoted I was addressing a very different point though.


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    #96
    Hilly Bill
    Registered Users Posts: 6,039 ✭✭✭Hilly Bill


    Eugene Norman wrote: »
    Same as a hold. You're wrong, the card doesn't deduct the full amount on entry ( the 4:70 is in brackets). If you were to miss the exit barrier it then deducts the actual amount after a time period. If you exit without validating in it deducts the 4:70.

    Somebody who is fined on a DART for not validating on has to pay.

    1) the maximum fare on exit.
    2) the actual fare.
    3) 100€ for not paying 2) even though they paid 1)

    Seems unfair to me.

    No, its simple. If you fail to tag on then you havent paid for that journey and risk getting fined before you finish your journey.


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    #97
    TheChizler
    Registered Users Posts: 9,426 ✭✭✭TheChizler


    Bob24 wrote: »
    Sure, agreed if it was the case there was no excuse for not paying ... I you look at the post I quoted I was addressing a very different point though.
    I get the point that public services are not optional to be provided, but I don't see the relevance to this thread, the public service was available.


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    #98
    Hilly Bill
    Registered Users Posts: 6,039 ✭✭✭Hilly Bill


    Eugene Norman wrote: »
    There are barriers everywhere. The cost of not validating when getting on is the maximum fare when getting off. Why would this lead to evasion?

    If you decide to tag off that is.


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    #99
    Hilly Bill
    Registered Users Posts: 6,039 ✭✭✭Hilly Bill


    Jon Stark wrote: »
    That's it, let someone be delayed from wherever they're going just because Irish Rail are too cheap to properly man a station and actually have machines that work.

    Kilbarrack is my local station and it's in a shocking state. They're trying to completely remove the need for someone to work the desk there without a moment's thought for people who are disabled, elderly or simply anyone who might need assistance.

    It's shocking treatment of a station that at rush hour is far busier than Raheny, Harmonstowm and Clontarf.

    What about the shocking treatment of the station from the locals?


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    #100
    Bob24
    Registered Users Posts: 10,905 ✭✭✭✭Bob24


    TheChizler wrote: »
    I get the point that public services are not optional to be provided, but I don't see the relevance to this thread, the public service was available.

    No everybody on the thread seems to agree with your statement saying the machines were definitely available - and some people have said even if they were not available the blame still solely lies on the passenger rather than the public service operator (again, have a look at the post I was quoting).

    This is what I was addressing ... nothing else.


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    #101
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 0 ✭ [Deleted User]


    Appeal the thing. They will most likely investigate your mother's Leap Card and if they see she is a regular payer then they'll probably cancel the fine.


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    #102
    Jon Stark
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,304 ✭✭✭Jon Stark


    Hilly Bill wrote: »
    What about the shocking treatment of the station from the locals?

    I'm not sure what you are referring to? Maybe you can elaborate.


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    #103
    Hilly Bill
    Registered Users Posts: 6,039 ✭✭✭Hilly Bill


    The anti social behaviour that goes on there. Im suprised its still manned. You would swear that there wasnt 2 bridges crossing the tracks there with the amount that just cross the tracks as a short cut sometimes even with a pram.


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    #104
    end of the road
    Registered Users Posts: 28,991 ✭✭✭✭end of the road


    runawaybishop wrote: »
    You are making it 50%easier to fare dodge.
    you aren't.

    ticking a box on a form does not make you of a religion.



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    #105
    runawaybishop
    Registered Users Posts: 9,500 ✭✭✭runawaybishop


    end of the road wrote: »
    you aren't.

    You obviously are if there is 0 requirement to scan at one of 2 points.


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    #106
    lifeandtimes
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,021 ✭✭✭lifeandtimes


    [Deleted User] wrote: »
    Appeal the thing. They will most likely investigate your mother's Leap Card and if they see she is a regular payer then they'll probably cancel the fine.

    Not true similar situation happened to me yesterday,except the machine gave me an error and no one was there to ask for help, the other door was open and I was under the impression I had tagged on,turns out i hadn't and they have denied my appeal saying the machine was working,it was not,so I'm letting them take me to court and fighting my case there....also it states in their fixed penalty leaflet on point 8 that they have to give you the option to pay at the station if they machines are broke,nobody is ever given this option, they also avoid other aspects you bring up in your appeal and issue standard templates about paying etc...its a scam and ordinary people are getting fined due to irish rails error


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    #107
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 0 ✭ [Deleted User]


    lifeandtimes wrote: »
    Not true similar situation happened to me yesterday,except the machine gave me an error and no one was there to ask for help, the other door was open and I was under the impression I had tagged on,turns out i hadn't and they have denied my appeal saying the machine was working,it was not,so I'm letting them take me to court and fighting my case there....also it states in their fixed penalty leaflet on point 8 that they have to give you the option to pay at the station if they machines are broke,nobody is ever given this option, they also avoid other aspects you bring up in your appeal and issue standard templates about paying etc...its a scam and ordinary people are getting fined due to irish rails error

    Oh... Well I had the exact opposite.

    I explained in my appeal that I tried tagging on but the machine would not recognise it so I jumped on the train as I was late for work. The appeal was successful and they explained as my Leap Card showed multiple transactions on Irish Rail every day that they would cancel the fine due to me being a regular "payer".

    So I suppose it's 50-50 whether they will let you off.


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    #108
    runawaybishop
    Registered Users Posts: 9,500 ✭✭✭runawaybishop


    Some good info here

    http://www.railusers.ie/passenger_info/fare_evasion.php

    Appeals should be made in writing to the address on the notice you received.

    Possible valid grounds for appeal

    I boarded at an unstaffed station (e.g. Broombridge)
    Station was locked up, no access to ticket machine
    Ticket machine broken, no booking office
    Staff at station stated "pay at other end" due large queue
    Forgot monthly/annual ticket (send photocopy with matching CIE id card within 14 days)

    Invalid grounds for appeal

    Queue was too long
    Train was early
    I was in a hurry
    I paid child fare because I couldn't afford adult fare
    I'm a student my student card is sufficient (must have student travel card)


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    #109
    lifeandtimes
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,021 ✭✭✭lifeandtimes


    [Deleted User] wrote: »
    Oh... Well I had the exact opposite.

    I explained in my appeal that I tried tagging on but the machine would not recognise it so I jumped on the train as I was late for work. The appeal was successful and they explained as my Leap Card showed multiple transactions on Irish Rail every day that they would cancel the fine due to me being a regular "payer".

    So I suppose it's 50-50 whether they will let you off.

    Nope didn't get that response,I stated my case and they out right denied it on the grounds they have a strict no tolerance policy for not having a ticket (clearly not if they let you off ) im a daily user and it's evident on my leap card

    So ill let them take me to court,explain to the judge and also point out they let other regular users off and why was i being made and example of


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    #110
    devnull
    Moderators, Motoring & Transport Moderators Posts: 11,587 Mod ✭✭✭✭devnull


    end of the road wrote: »
    you aren't.

    Conditional Validation Evaders as they are called in the trade as I already posted. This is the whole reason the fine and tagging on system works the way it does, to prevent this kind of evasion. Some people also called it "Protected Evasion" because it offers the evader a get out clause.

    The evader, who has no interest in paying a fare on a regular basis, deliberately chooses not to tag on at their origin station. However they carry a Leap Card at all times to Protect themselves from a possible fine

    When they arrive at their destination, they will normally tailgate someone, hurdle the barriers or walk through if they are open and thus not pay their fare.

    If they however cannot tailgate, or bypass the barriers or meet an inspector or an RPI they use the Leap Card to pay the maximum fare, therefore protecting them from a fine.

    I have seen this happen several times in reality.


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    #111
    devnull
    Moderators, Motoring & Transport Moderators Posts: 11,587 Mod ✭✭✭✭devnull


    lifeandtimes wrote: »
    Not true similar situation happened to me yesterday,except the machine gave me an error and no one was there to ask for help, the other door was open and I was under the impression I had tagged on,turns out i hadn't and they have denied my appeal saying the machine was working,

    Every action the ticket machines do is written on an internal log which can be downloaded by Irish Rail. It contains a time stamp for each action, so if you give them a time they can see what happens wither side of that and around the same time. This allows them to see if the machine was working.

    Someone once on here reported they tried to use a ticket machine for 10 minutes with no luck, yet their appeal was refused because Irish Rail could see that several people used that ticket machine fine in the same timeframe.

    What error did the ticket machine give you?


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    #112
    Jon Stark
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,304 ✭✭✭Jon Stark


    Hilly Bill wrote: »
    The anti social behaviour that goes on there. Im suprised its still manned. You would swear that there wasnt 2 bridges crossing the tracks there with the amount that just cross the tracks as a short cut sometimes even with a pram.

    Every station has its anti social problem whether it's kids drinking at night or whatever. But it's quite clearly not that bad as it's a popular station. If it was bad as you suggest people would just get off at howth junction.


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    #113
    lifeandtimes
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,021 ✭✭✭lifeandtimes


    devnull wrote: »
    Every action the ticket machines do is written on an internal log which can be downloaded by Irish Rail. It contains a time stamp for each action, so if you give them a time they can see what happens wither side of that and around the same time. This allows them to see if the machine was working.

    Someone once on here reported they tried to use a ticket machine for 10 minutes with no luck, yet their appeal was refused because Irish Rail could see that several people used that ticket machine fine in the same timeframe.

    What error did the ticket machine give you?

    I tagged on the machine,it said please wait like always and it just continued to ping,the doors didn't open and just stayed like,if this is logged then they would see I tired to tag on,all they said in response to my appeal was that the machine was working..I gave exact times etc,the are just trying to fob me off


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    #114
    devnull
    Moderators, Motoring & Transport Moderators Posts: 11,587 Mod ✭✭✭✭devnull


    lifeandtimes wrote: »
    I tagged on the machine,it said please wait like always and it just continued to ping,the doors didn't open and just stayed like,if this is logged then they would see I tired to tag on,all they said in response to my appeal was that the machine was working..I gave exact times etc,the are just trying to fob me off

    I don't know how the validators log or if they log as much as the ticket machines so I can't comment on what details Irish Rail will see on the logs.

    The few times I have seen the barriers hang has been at Tara Street or Connolly when about 10 barriers are being used at once and there can be a 10 second lag at it's worst.

    I've only seen it happen once at another station and that gate was stuck saying please wait for day so I assume someone had to restart it.


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    #115
    Hilly Bill
    Registered Users Posts: 6,039 ✭✭✭Hilly Bill


    Jon Stark wrote: »
    Every station has its anti social problem whether it's kids drinking at night or whatever. But it's quite clearly not that bad as it's a popular station. If it was bad as you suggest people would just get off at howth junction.

    That's just as bad.


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    #116
    Jon Stark
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,304 ✭✭✭Jon Stark


    Hilly Bill wrote: »
    That's just as bad.

    Yeah you claim that yet the popularity of both stations remain. Tbh it sounds like you haven't a clue and that you're not from the area.


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    #117
    Hilly Bill
    Registered Users Posts: 6,039 ✭✭✭Hilly Bill


    Trust me, i know it very well. Howth junction is not popular at all, a lot of the older crowd are too scared to use it.


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    #118
    devnull
    Moderators, Motoring & Transport Moderators Posts: 11,587 Mod ✭✭✭✭devnull


    Howth Junction is a worse station than Kilbarack for anti-social behaviour, that I have absolutely no doubt. But to say if there is enough bad behaviour nobody will use the station is crazy. It will effect number to some degree, but if someone doesn't drive they will most likely get the train even if there is an element of anti-social behaviour.

    Although if Irish Rail really are more likely to leave a station unstaffed if there is anti-social behaviour but more likely to leave it staffed if everyone is well behaved, then I have to say there is some warped logic there, almost like if nobody is there to see it happen, it doesn't exist.


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    #119
    GM228
    Registered Users Posts: 8,925 ✭✭✭GM228


    lifeandtimes wrote: »

    So ill let them take me to court,explain to the judge and also point out they let other regular users off and why was i being made and example of

    Just reading this particular thread and based on what you have said about this incident (you've mentioned it over 3 seperate threads I think) I don't think you'd get the result you want in court.

    Best to get legal advice however if you intend to go down that road, but do take into account that if unsuccessful in court not only will you have to pay the fine and original fare, but you also then have CIEs legal costs and most important a criminal conviction.

    GM228


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    #120
    spurious
    Moderators, Category Moderators, Education Moderators Posts: 27,131 CMod ✭✭✭✭spurious


    If the Leap validator is broken on the bus, I have never yet met a driver who insisted people pay in cash instead. We all just go ahead. I know the OP's mother was on a train, but it may be relevant.


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    #121
    Bob24
    Registered Users Posts: 10,905 ✭✭✭✭Bob24


    spurious wrote: »
    If the Leap validator is broken on the bus, I have never yet met a driver who insisted people pay in cash instead. We all just go ahead. I know the OP's mother was on a train, but it may be relevant.

    Same here. But a key difference is that in your case you are going in with the approval of a Dublin Bus employee.


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