The Taxi Industry and how ridiculous it has gotten, a drivers view..

Ham'nd'egger · 01-02-2008 4:47am

micmclo wrote: »

Just scanned through this thread so maybe it has been answered.

I must be blind or lucky as I take taxi's 4-5 times a week and can't remember the last time I've noticed anything worth complaining about.

If you go to a rank and you decide to skip the first car, will the next driver refuse to take you and tell you to take the first taxi in the rank?
A bit of an unwritten code of honour between drivers?

Just wondering.......

To be honest, that is the whole point of the idea of a rank; first come first served, be it car or punter. There will be exceptions that are reasonable; more than 4 people, a load of bags or weird parcel (May need an estate car), extra drunk punter, a trip over the 30KM limit or some people disliking van taxis all spring to mind. It is getting farcical if the ideal of queuing in a rank is abolished in lieu of pick and choose. Personally, I'd rather they take the first cab but if they insist, that seems to be it.

Small tale relating to that, Mic...

One evening I was sitting second on the rank at the Westbury Hotel and a girl gets into the back of my car. Before she said anything, I said to her that there was a car ahead of me, she asked was I not taking her and I said merely that there was a car ahead and that he would take her. She effed and blinded at me, got out, slammed the door and walked away, not even attempting to get into the other cabs. The first driver got out to see what happened and he seemed kind of glad she didn't get into the car with him

MOH · 01-02-2008 5:34pm

Did the taxi that took them do a u-turn or did they cross and get in the direction it was already heading? I could understand that, if the guys at the rank were facing the wrong way and they would have had to go down the road and turn.

kittensoft1984 · 01-02-2008 5:37pm

taxi drviers do have to pass some type of test but im not sure what it is.....

and with regards to the first taxi in the rank....yes it is an unwritten rule me thinks....ive had it before!

jdivision · 01-02-2008 8:58pm

I prefer non-national drivers, but first choice is based on cars. I thought there was a charge at rank as well but Mairt set me straight yesterday

DMC2005 · 01-02-2008 9:31pm

Hamndegger wrote: »

the 3 cars at the top of the rank were driven by "non Irish" drivers.

So ? The paying customer, or punter as you refer to them, has every right to choose who they give their custom to. Are you really suggesting that someone who hails a taxi when they are near a rank is a racist ? Maybe it was only you who noticed the skin colour of the driver at the rank.

Hamndegger wrote: »

1) Has it come to the stage where passengers are feeling that they need to pick the car they travel in, based on the skin of a driver?

They can pick the car on whatever grounds they wish. Its a service industry don't forget.

Hamndegger wrote: »

2) Has it come to it that the relevance of a Taxi Rank is watered down that bad that punters can not only pick and choose their car that they can disregard the rank if they wish to?

Of course the customer can disregard the rank if they wish. For long enough taxi drivers picked and chose their fares. Welcome to the free market. Drivers offer a service - if some drivers offer a better service than others its only reasonable that they get more business

Hamndegger wrote: »

3) Are taxi drivers in Dublin that bad that passengers have to resort to this, and if so, how often is it happening?

Its got nothing to do with the standard of taxi driver - its to do with the number of taxis. Now people can get a taxi on whatever side of the road they wish. The customer is now in a position to demand higher standards from taxis.

Victor · 01-02-2008 10:04pm

In a queue, a passenger can pick any car they want. AFAIK, a driver is obliged to accept the passenger (within reason). It is usual to pick from the front, but not obligatory.

Many drivers won't pick up within a certain distance of a rank, encouraging people to use the rank.

It would be sensible for streets to have ranks on both sides to prevent the typical "taxi turning and blocking the whole street"-type affair. I think in the OP, if the guys went out of their way to get the other taxi it was probably wrong, I suspect blocking traffic wasn't on their minds.

Out last week, a friend said his likes to take taxis from ranks to encourage the use of ranks.

Some ranks are being reworked, The centre one on O'Connell Street is being made 2 separate ransk to facilitate people going south.

On my bike the other evening, I pulled up next to an 8-seater taxi at traffic lights. I somehow scared the life out of one of the passengers, her thinking I was the bogey-man looking in the window.

Spook_ie · 01-02-2008 10:13pm

DMC2005 wrote: »

So ? The paying customer, or punter as you refer to them, has every right to choose who they give their custom to. Are you really suggesting that someone who hails a taxi when they are near a rank is a racist ? Maybe it was only you who noticed the skin colour of the driver at the rank.

They can pick the car on whatever grounds they wish. Its a service industry don't forget.

See Answer A

Of course the customer can disregard the rank if they wish. For long enough taxi drivers picked and chose their fares. Welcome to the free market. Drivers offer a service - if some drivers offer a better service than others its only reasonable that they get more business

See Answer B

Its got nothing to do with the standard of taxi driver - its to do with the number of taxis. Now people can get a taxi on whatever side of the road they wish. The customer is now in a position to demand higher standards from taxis.

See Answer C

A It is a service industry, however, the customer is not allowed ( by law ) to pick whichever taxi they want if it is being based on Color, Race, Sex, Ageism etc. The Taxi Regulator needs to step in quickly and allow the drivers to legaly tell customers to use the car at the head of the Queue

B Yes at the moment you can ignore the rank if you so wish, however in defference to those people that would use it as an excuse to differentiate against whatever type of taxi driver they want, it is time the law was changed to a similar Parisian Law where it's not allowed for a taxi to be hailed within 100m of a rank that is occupied by either vacant taxis or customers Queuing

C They may well be in that position at the moment but when you know see Plate Number 40000+ on the streets, ask yourself the following question " How many more taxis can the customer base support? Something will give under the strain before too long and my fear is that it will be of customer and driver safety as the drivers try to make up the money needed to give you your "Higher Standards"

Our man in Havana · 01-02-2008 10:14pm

In a queue, a passenger can pick any car they want. AFAIK, a driver is obliged to accept the passenger (within reason). It is usual to pick from the front, but not obligatory.

I know of several occasions where the passenger choose a car other than the front car and then being pulled of out of the car by the driver of the head car on the rank.

tinofapples · 01-02-2008 10:27pm

The Taxi Regulator needs to step in quickly and allow the drivers to legaly tell customers to use the car at the head of the Queue

Taxi Regulator needs to be doing alot of things. Doesn't mean that's gonna happen.

dam099 · 01-02-2008 10:55pm

tinofapples wrote: »

Others have other issues such as the vetting of non-national drivers (Which i happen to agree with, how much vetting can be done on someone who has spent majority of their life in another country).

Vetting isn't just an issue with non-national drivers, a well known Dublin criminal got a taxi licence as well as the man who was convicted of the sexual assault of the child in the X case.

tinofapples · 01-02-2008 11:24pm

Vetting isn't just an issue with non-national drivers, a well known Dublin criminal got a taxi licence as well as the man who was convicted of the sexual assault of the child in the X case.

Agreed to a certain degree but it should be possible (Easy) for Guards to identify those applying for a PSV with a criminal record and therefore refuse the license. In the cases mentioned above shouldn't the Guard who signed off their application for the license be questioned/disciplined ? Accountability ??

Likewise it should be possible for the Guards to vet/check whether non-national drivers have a criminal record for the time they have lived here. How in Gods name to they know how clean their records are in their home countries ???

They can't.

Ham'nd'egger · 02-02-2008 12:34am

tinofapples wrote: »

Agreed to a certain degree but it should be possible (Easy) for Guards to identify those applying for a PSV with a criminal record and therefore refuse the license. In the cases mentioned above shouldn't the Guard who signed off their application for the license be questioned/disciplined ? Accountability ??

It is easy for the Gardai to spot them. The problem here is when convicted criminals are refused by the Carriage Office, their decision is being appealed to the courts on the basis that the applicant is entitled to make a living and would be able to if allowed to hold a PSV badge. By and large, the appellants are being granted a PSV, with the proviso of the applicant being subject to a probationary period being conviction free. This farcical by pass of the Garda check is making the criminal check all but redundant.

DMC2005 · 02-02-2008 12:36am

Spook_ie wrote: »

the customer is not allowed ( by law ) to pick whichever taxi they want if it is being based on Color, Race, Sex, Ageism etc.

Total Rubbish. What law says this? People can choose whatever supplier they wish, on whatever grounds they wish. By law the taxi must accept a passanger - the passenger is not obliged to accept any old taxi. I often choose services based on the ethnicity of the supplier - for example if I go for a Chinese meal, I prefer the staff in the restaraunt to be chinese than Irish. Are you saying I'm breaking the law ?

Spook_ie wrote: »

it is time the law was changed to a similar Parisian Law where it's not allowed for a taxi to be hailed within 100m of a rank that is occupied by either vacant taxis or customers Queuing

It would be much more beneficial to customers if your suggestion was reversed - if it was prohibited for a driver to pickup a passanger when they are near a rank with people queueing at it. It would also be much easier to enforce - just take the licence off them - plenty other drivers on the road that will follow the rules as you rightly point out.

Spook_ie wrote: »

How many more taxis can the customer base support? Something will give under the strain before too long and my fear is that it will be of customer and driver safety as the drivers try to make up the money needed to give you your "Higher Standards"

This is the same scaremongering arguement put up against deregulation years ago - back when people couldn't get a taxi for love nor money at night, and a cartel tied up the licenses. Tighter regulation of vehicles and drivers will sort out any safety issues. Just take the licence off any driver with say 9 penelty points, and prohibit cars with low ncap ratings serving as taxis. As you say there are lots of drivers at the moment - it presents a great opportunity for a cull which would really benefit the industry.

Spook_ie · 02-02-2008 7:29am

Point A ---You can not select a car based on the color/race/religion/sex or age of the driver, this would cross so many discriminatory laws that I realy wonder if you just said that to wind up the NCCR etc. If you are serious I suggest that the next time you decide you don't want a taxi because the driver is Black, Pakisatani, Hindu, Female or over 65 that you tell them that to their face and see how many Gards they can get to arrest you.

Point B The last two words " Customers Queing" covers that.

Point C You can't stop people with 9 penalty points driving a taxi in the same way as you can't limit the number of plates being issued. Tighter regulation isn't going to sort that out. The only thing tighter regulation would sort out is the surmising by many drivers, myself included, that there are a lot of unlicensed drivers sharing cabs.

Point D I wouldn't say it's scaremongering to point out that with the latest plate numbers being issued exceeding the number 40000 that there is a limit to the number of taxis that a customerbase can support and allow the drivers to attain a reasonable wage as well as provide the extra costs to give the customers their higher standards, to me that is simple economics.

However it is a fact of life that many drivers will have to take out loans to cover vehicle replacement and then have to work longer hours to make up the loan repayments, this coupled with the ever growing dog eat dog mentality of drivers trying to earn the same wage as last year is a sure recipe for disaster at some stage, you have no need to argue against this view as all I will say is " wait and see" and " I told you so! "

ardmacha · 02-02-2008 11:53am

You can not select a car based on the color/race/religion/sex or age of the driver

Are there not some taxi companies that allow you ask for a female driver?

You can't stop people with 9 penalty points driving a taxi in the same way as you can't limit the number of plates being issued.

Why not. You could have a restriction on driving a public service vehicle which is different from the points needed to lose your licence.

Ham'nd'egger · 02-02-2008 1:12pm

ardmacha wrote: »

Why not. You could have a restriction on driving a public service vehicle which is different from the points needed to lose your licence.

Penalty Point's are not a criminal conviction so they wouldn't be allowable to be used as assessment into suitability; as it is, criminals with far more serious convictions are allowed entry into the industry. This issue about the right to earn a living is covered in the Constitution so I can't see it being changed as a law anytime soon. That said, the idea is very good.

Wishbone Ash · 02-02-2008 1:24pm

Spook_ie wrote: »

You can not select a car based on the color/race/religion/sex or age of the driver, this would cross so many discriminatory laws

But couldn't customer could get around that by using the type of vehicle as a reason for their refusal. Is it legal to refuse to take a van type, estate car, MPV or a Punto etc.? Some people queuing at the airport rank offer the taxi to the next customer while they wait for the S class to make its way to the top of the queue.

DMC2005 · 02-02-2008 1:51pm

Wishbone Ash wrote: »

But couldn't customer could get around that by using the type of vehicle as a reason for their refusal

Well they could, if they needed to - but seeing as this law doesn't exist there is no need to "get around it". A customer can select a service on any grounds they choose - the previous poster seems to be under the impression that hailing a taxi is covered by the Employment Equality Act - this is not the case.

Spook_ie wrote: »

allow the drivers to attain a reasonable wage ...... drivers trying to earn the same wage as last year

The days of the taxi industry existing to line the pockets of the lucky few who held licenses is over. From here on in the Taxi industry exists to serve their customers. Get used to it.

Hamndegger wrote: »

Penalty Point's are not a criminal conviction so they wouldn't be allowable to be used as assessment into suitability....the right to earn a living is covered in the Constitution so I can't see it being changed as a law anytime soon.

Rubbish. The taxi regulator is taking over responsibility for licensing from the carriage office this year, and totally reforming the process. New drivers will have to pass a driving asessment and sit a computer based exam. They are also introducing new smartcard licenses to help with enforcement. Standards are rising for the drivers, the idea that people somehow have a right to a PSV licence is over.

As Bob Dylan said - "The times, the are a changin"

Capt'n Midnight · 02-02-2008 2:57pm

Spook_ie wrote:

]there is a limit to the number of taxis that a customerbase can support and allow the drivers to attain a reasonable wage as well as provide the extra costs to give the customers their higher standards, to me that is simple economics.

However it is a fact of life that many drivers will have to take out loans to cover vehicle replacement and then have to work longer hours to make up the loan repayments, this coupled with the ever growing dog eat dog mentality of drivers trying to earn the same wage as last year is a sure recipe for disaster at some stage, you have no need to argue against this view as all I will say is " wait and see" and " I told you so! "

In the past plates went for house prices and taxi drivers used to make 4 times the average wage. Those days are gone.
The regulator sets the fares so there can't be a race to the bottom like in the UK haulage industry where they cut their own throats to get business off each and got hammered when fuel costs went up. Taxi drivers can do other jobs part time.

For the consumer certain minimum standards need to be met. These would restrict entry to the profession by people who should not be there. Already we have directives than mean that ancient cars will be phased out in the next decade or so. But not old or unsuitable vehicles though. Seriously you don't need a new or even second hand car in this country - it's a completely unnecessary expense if you just look at the regulations alone. Perhaps a test on fluency of either of the national languages of the state. Something like "the knowledge" would be nice but here the problem is not the old unchanging streets but the new estates that change by next year.

Wishbone Ash · 02-02-2008 3:09pm

Capt'n Midnight wrote: »

here the problem is not the old unchanging streets but the new estates that change by next year.

There is a problem with old streets also. Many of the new developments in the city centre do not have the nameplate of the street. In other streets the nameplates seem to have disappeared or have been replaced incorrectly. Joyce Street still appears in some maps as Corporation Street even though it was rebadged several years ago. Try to find Great Longford Street - you'll see it in the maps alright but try actually finding it in person!

Spook_ie · 02-02-2008 4:24pm

DMC2005 wrote: »

Well they could, if they needed to - but seeing as this law doesn't exist there is no need to "get around it". A customer can select a service on any grounds they choose - the previous poster seems to be under the impression that hailing a taxi is covered by the Employment Equality Act - this is not the case.

The days of the taxi industry existing to line the pockets of the lucky few who held licenses is over. From here on in the Taxi industry exists to serve their customers. Get used to it.

Rubbish. The taxi regulator is taking over responsibility for licensing from the carriage office this year, and totally reforming the process. New drivers will have to pass a driving asessment and sit a computer based exam. They are also introducing new smartcard licenses to help with enforcement. Standards are rising for the drivers, the idea that people somehow have a right to a PSV licence is over.

As Bob Dylan said - "The times, the are a changin"

Refer to the OP, To prevent this very thing of discriminating against the driver regardless of if he is driving a clapped out Toyota or a new Mercedes, then the TR has to reinterpret the law of allowing the customer choice of cars at ranks, otherwise you will and do get complaints of discrimination.

Whatever you might like to think that the taxi industry is there to serve the customers, it is also there as a way to feed, clothe and house my family

The smartcard licenses are already here and as far as the enforcment side they have had nil effect, they might make it easier for the TR to check a driver when he's stopped but the last time I was even asked to produce a drivers license not a PSV license was once in the last 5 years. Compare that to the number of taxis you can count on a Friday/Saturday with NO ID card on display or displayed incorrectly and then ask where the enforcement is!

Ham'nd'egger · 02-02-2008 4:46pm

DMC2005 wrote: »

Well they could, if they needed to - but seeing as this law doesn't exist there is no need to "get around it". A customer can select a service on any grounds they choose - the previous poster seems to be under the impression that hailing a taxi is covered by the Employment Equality Act - this is not the case.

Rubbish. The taxi regulator is taking over responsibility for licensing from the carriage office this year, and totally reforming the process. New drivers will have to pass a driving asessment and sit a computer based exam. They are also introducing new smartcard licenses to help with enforcement. Standards are rising for the drivers, the idea that people somehow have a right to a PSV licence is over.

As Bob Dylan said - "The times, the are a changin"

DMC, the Equality Act covers anybody who use a service as well as those who provide it; however it is impossible for a service provider to prosecute a stranger who would discriminate against them under the act for obvious reasons. As to your point towards me regards penalty points; there is a Constitutional right given to citizens to work in a trade if they have the requisite skills to do so. This was established by Christopher Humphries in 2000 in the High Court case that ended the cap on Taxi Licenses in Ireland; the fact that holders of PSV badges had not got the right to buy a license of their own. The issue of points to one is not a conviction so it can't be used as grounds to refuse a PSV; in any case, there is far more serious offenders to worry about getting PSV's as it is.

jdivision · 03-02-2008 1:36am

tinofapples wrote: »

Agreed to a certain degree but it should be possible (Easy) for Guards to identify those applying for a PSV with a criminal record and therefore refuse the license. In the cases mentioned above shouldn't the Guard who signed off their application for the license be questioned/disciplined ? Accountability ??

.

It's not enough to have a criminal record. There was a case iirc where the judge ruled that the offender should have been awarded a licence because he had a right to earn a living.

jdivision · 03-02-2008 1:37am

Spook_ie wrote: »

Point D I wouldn't say it's scaremongering to point out that with the latest plate numbers being issued exceeding the number 40000 that there is a limit to the number of taxis that a customerbase can support and allow the drivers to attain a reasonable wage as well as provide the extra costs to give the customers their higher standards, to me that is simple economics.

However it is a fact of life that many drivers will have to take out loans to cover vehicle replacement and then have to work longer hours to make up the loan repayments, this coupled with the ever growing dog eat dog mentality of drivers trying to earn the same wage as last year is a sure recipe for disaster at some stage, you have no need to argue against this view as all I will say is " wait and see" and " I told you so! "

a

A number of drivers have told me they earn between e350 and 400 on a Saturday night. Figures for a Friday would presumably be similar. That's a hell of a lot of money.

Wishbone Ash · 03-02-2008 1:40am

jdivision wrote: »

a

A number of drivers have told me they earn between e350 and 400 on a Saturday night. Figures for a Friday would presumably be similar. That's a hell of a lot of money.

I wouldn't consider that to be a lot of money. Think of the overheads. I'd earn that on overtime with no overheads.

Dub13 · 03-02-2008 1:48am

Wishbone Ash wrote: »

I wouldn't consider that to be a lot of money. Think of the overheads. I'd earn that on overtime with no overheads.

I agree and they have a lot of overheads.That is not great money and who would want to work every Fri & Sat

DMC2005 · 03-02-2008 2:02am

Dub13 wrote: »

I agree and they have a lot of overheads.That is not great money and who would want to work every Fri & Sat

Lots of people - thats why there are so many new taxis.

Re. the criminal records, its a new law which explicitly prohibits those with serious convictions - the previous notion of "good character" is what caused the problems with shady characters driving taxis.

Altho it has to be said the taxi drivers themselves have not tried in any way to clean the criminals out of their own industry - quite the opposite in fact - the unions are campaigning against this being introduced retrospectivly. They seem to have no problems with murderers driving Taxis, so long as they have been driving taxis a few years. Its insane !!

Spook_ie · 03-02-2008 7:42am

DMC2005 wrote: »

Lots of people - thats why there are so many new taxis.

Re. the criminal records, its a new law which explicitly prohibits those with serious convictions - the previous notion of "good character" is what caused the problems with shady characters driving taxis.

Altho it has to be said the taxi drivers themselves have not tried in any way to clean the criminals out of their own industry - quite the opposite in fact - the unions are campaigning against this being introduced retrospectivly. They seem to have no problems with murderers driving Taxis, so long as they have been driving taxis a few years. Its insane !!

No the reason there are so many new taxis is so many people believe the hype that you can clear between 350 and 400 euro.

As to the new law that prohibits people with serious criminal convictions from having a PSV license, you are refering to Section 36 of the 2003 Taxi Act, only problem is its not been enacted as yet

Section 36 of the 2003 Act, once commenced, will significantly strengthen this. Section 36 will introduce a system of automatic disqualification from applying for or holding a SPSV driver licence for those who have been convicted of specified serious offences including:

Murder;
Manslaughter;
A range of non-fatal offences against the person, including threats to kill, syringe attacks, endangering traffic, false imprisonment;
Assault or assault causing harm;
Sexual offences including rape, sexual assault, and aggravated sexual assault;
Drug trafficking;
Money laundering;
Theft and fraud offences;
Illegal immigrant trafficking;
Firearms and offensive weapons offences.
Where a person convicted of a summary offence gets a penalty other than a term of imprisonment, that person will be disqualified from holding a licence for 12 months. Where a person gets a term of imprisonment for a summary offence or is convicted on indictment, that person will be disqualified indefinitely. However, Section 36(2) allows a licence holder who has been disqualified to apply, after a specified period of time, to the relevant Court to be allowed to apply for a licence.

The Minister for Transport is consulting with the Commission for Taxi Regulation, the Department of Justice, Equality and Law Reform, An Garda Síochána, the Courts Service and the industry regarding the arrangements that need to be put in place prior to the commencement of the remainder of section 36. Sufficient advance notice will be given to SPSV driver’s licence holders in order to allow them to avail of the provision in section 36(2) to apply to the relevant court to hold a licence.

Please note that all queries relating to section 36 should be directed to the Department of Transport.

So thats on the long finger then..

Capt'n Midnight 55035170 wrote:

The regulator sets the fares so there can't be a race to the bottom like in the UK haulage industry where they cut their own throats to get business off each and got hammered when fuel costs went up. Taxi drivers can do other jobs part time.

The regulator sets out a maximum fare that can be charged on the meter, people are already discounting fares see http://www.easycab.ie/book_cab.php as an example, drivers are already cutting their own throats to some extent to get to a fare, just witness some of the driving to get in front of a cab for a fare or to get onto a rank ahead of someone else, believe me the Irish Taxi Industry is on the precipis of going into freefall and there wont be any winners, customers or drivers!

The drivers won't be able to make a living from Taxi driving, so they will head off to do part/full time jobs and taxi of a weekend, the weekend customer will get his taxi and then end up paying more for the fare because of the gridlock caused by so many taxis looking for fares and the midweek customer or early morning taxi user won't get a taxi because all the drivers are working elsewhere.

There is no easy answers to any of the problems highlighted in threads like this, but if the taxi regulator were to actualy listen to "genuine" full time taxi drivers many of the answers are available.

Among them are

Removal of VRT on cars purchased for Taxis

Removal of the part time PAYE sector from driving Taxis on their weekends

Removal of the hold ups to actioning Section 36 of the 2003 Taxi Act

Removal or stricter regulation of companies that rent out Taxis to anybody

More random checks by the Garda/Taxi regulator to see that taxis are properly insured/ licensed/ taxed/ NCT'd/ Driven by a PSV license Holder etc. ( but not persecution of taxi drivers in general )

Make the Driver Id's color coded for the areas they are valid in and print the area allowed on the side that the customer can see from inside the car

Put a County Crest on the door

Stamp PSV on the insurance discs ( at the moment it's only required on the cover note not the disc!! )

Spook_ie · 03-02-2008 8:11am

We probably all saw the picture of the Punto with a cardboard sign on Dawson St, but do you realy think the public deserve a better taxi service when some actual idiots took a ride in the "Taxi"

http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=3lgqP0OqE1M

Dub13 · 03-02-2008 12:46pm

Spook_ie wrote: »

We probably all saw the picture of the Punto with a cardboard sign on Dawson St, but do you realy think the public deserve a better taxi service when some actual idiots took a ride in the "Taxi"

http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=3lgqP0OqE1M

It was a joke.....you need to relax a bit.

The Taxi Industry and how ridiculous it has gotten, a drivers view..

Comments