M20 - Cork to Limerick [preferred route chosen; in design - phase 3]

swoofer · 31-10-2014 3:47pm

I go to Cork in 2 weeks from Clare and I will go via mitchelstown rather than endure that N20. Its shocking to read the M18 will be extended and nothing for the Limerick -Cork motorway!! I cant fathom it. I am pleased with the M18 .

AugustusMinimus · 31-10-2014 4:06pm

swoofer wrote: »

I go to Cork in 2 weeks from Clare and I will go via mitchelstown rather than endure that N20. Its shocking to read the M18 will be extended and nothing for the Limerick -Cork motorway!! I cant fathom it. I am pleased with the M18 .

IMO, Mallow to Limerick should have been done before the current M17/M18 project. Then the M17/M18 and finally Cork to Mallow.

revsperminute · 31-10-2014 5:25pm

Would it not make more sense to upgrade the N24 to motorway spec. and have the Limerick / Cork route via a new M24 and the M8 rather than upgrading the N20. It would an upgrade of 55km approx. (N24) of new motorway compared to 80km of motorway (N20)

The Megaphone · 31-10-2014 9:12pm

revsperminute wrote: »

Would it not make more sense to upgrade the N24 to motorway spec. and have the Limerick / Cork route via a new M24 and the M8 rather than upgrading the N20. It would an upgrade of 55km approx. (N24) of new motorway compared to 80km of motorway (N20)

Unfortunately doesn't do anything to help commuter traffic into Cork City from the Mallow region which peaks at around 20,000 vehicles a day on the N20.

cgcsb · 02-11-2014 3:06pm

The Megaphone wrote: »

Unfortunately doesn't do anything to help commuter traffic into Cork City from the Mallow region which peaks at around 20,000 vehicles a day on the N20.

Why would we want more traffic coming into Cork City, especially along the Mallow corridor where there is a frequent rail service. Good park and ride facilities are a better option

The Megaphone · 02-11-2014 7:38pm

cgcsb wrote: »

Why would we want more traffic coming into Cork City, especially along the Mallow corridor where there is a frequent rail service. Good park and ride facilities are a better option

Afraid i don't really have that much time for smart travel as it only works if the alternative method of travel is competitively priced with a high frequency of service, so unless Cork CoCo plan on building a light rail system to rival the Luas you can forget about it.

So back to the road, the upgrade is not to encourage greater use, rather a necessity to cater for current traffic volumes (let alone volumes in 20 years time). To put it in perspective, there is more traffic using the N20 from Mallow than there is using the M9 Motorway to Waterford.

Leonard Hofstadter · 03-11-2014 12:09am

cgcsb wrote: »

Why would we want more traffic coming into Cork City, especially along the Mallow corridor where there is a frequent rail service. Good park and ride facilities are a better option

The existing road is totally inadequate; it's very unsafe (especially the 2+1 bit) and is completely over capacity. Yes, of course, rail services should be improved, but rail does not suit everyone and we need to plan for the future rather than doing everything in the typical Irish half-assed way and with the 'era shur it'll be grand' kind of an attitude.

Mc Love · 07-11-2014 12:01pm

N20 is even worse when there is a bloody horse fair on or when there is a park and ride proposed for the Charleville Park hotel and Gardai have to get called in to sort the traffic outside the hotel and people have to take diversions on R roads at best

Missyelliot2 · 07-11-2014 9:35pm

Letter I received from Programming Division of the NRA......Looks like there will be improvements made to the footpaths....we should all drive on them through Buttevant.

Thank you for your email.

As you may be aware, investment in transport infrastructure, including the national roads improvement programme, has been scaled back significantly under the Government’s capital investment plan “Infrastructure and Capital Investment 2012 – 2016”. As a consequence, the funding available to the Authority for allocation to road authorities to carry out works on the network of national roads, which comprises 5,500 km of carriageway, is extremely limited.

Funding is, accordingly, being targeted by the Authority at those sections of the network of national roads that have been identified as being in most need of improvement.

Network condition surveys have identified a number of priority improvement schemes on the N20 at Charleville and Mallow and remedial works will be carried out at the locations concerned as funding resources permit.

The NRA continues to invest significant sums of money on renewing pavements on priority sections of the national road network. In recent years pavement expenditure on this route has been circa €5.5M in the past 3-4 years and this year circa €3.5M is currently being invested.

In 2011, the Minister for Transport, Mr. Leo Varadkar, directed that the M20 Cork to Limerick scheme be suspended due to funding constraints. However, the Authority with the funding available, has been able to provide Cork County Council with funds for pavement improvements/maintenance along the route. Construction of the Cork to Limerick scheme however will require significant funding to be made available, which at the current time, is not possible. With regard to your taxes and particularly your transport related taxes, please note that approximately 25% of same are invested by the Exchequer in transport related expenditure, the Authority does the best it can nationally, with the 10% (of transport related taxation) it receives. Until such time that this increases significantly, major bypasses will be limited to what can be made available through public and private means and the Authority will concentrate on the maintenance of the existing infrastructure with the funding made available.

I trust the above information is of assistance to you.

Regards,

Programme Division.

jd · 07-11-2014 9:41pm

In this context, pavement means the road surface.

The Megaphone · 07-11-2014 9:49pm

jd wrote: »

In this context, pavement means the road service.

Pavement is Road Pavement, so pavement improvements is a nice way of saying 're-surfacing'.

Missyelliot2 · 07-11-2014 9:57pm

It was meant as tongue-in-cheek folks!

irishfeen · 24-11-2014 11:39pm

Another death and two others seriously injured this evening on the N20 between Buttevant and Mallow - heartbreaking for the family before Christmas ... you would wonder how many more have to die for the M20 to be funded

sonnyblack · 24-11-2014 11:46pm

irishfeen wrote: »

Another death and two others seriously injured this evening on the N20 between Buttevant and Mallow - heartbreaking for the family before Christmas ... you would wonder how many more have to die for the M20 to be funded

Heard Sean o Neill of NRA on radio recently banging on about red cow opening and gort tuam starting as well as enniscorthy and new Ross bypasses starting next year. No mention of M20. Its an out and out disgrace. Has to be the most dangerous national route in the country. Its at least 5 if not 10 years off Imho

irishfeen · 24-11-2014 11:58pm

sonnyblack wrote: »

Heard Sean o Neill of NRA on radio recently banging on about red cow opening and gort tuam starting as well as enniscorthy and new Ross bypasses starting next year. No mention of M20. Its an out and out disgrace. Has to be the most dangerous national route in the country. Its at least 5 if not 10 years off Imho

Yeah I heard some guy from the NRA on the last word and when he was specifically asked he pawned off Cooper - I wouldn't be surprised if the NRA has been told no funding will be made available during the lifetime of this government.

L1011 · 25-11-2014 9:45am

That's what you get for voting in a lot of FF down there :pac:

irishfeen · 25-11-2014 10:01am

L1011 wrote: »

That's what you get for voting in a lot of FF down there :pac:

Ha the thing is if FF were in government it probably would go ahead and borrow the money for a few cute hoor votes but Michael Noonan is from Limerick, Simon Coveney is from Cork and N.Cork has Sean Sherlock (Lab) and Tom Barry (FG) but there seems to be no budge at all.

lordhaha · 26-11-2014 2:16pm

Another death at Ballybeg Buttevant, How many now? How many more before they upgrade at least that section of road? (Had not read Irishfeen post at time of writing.) Anyway of finding out the amount of people killed at that section alone. I live quite near and know of at least 5 in last few years.

veryangryman · 27-11-2014 12:44pm

Just looking at NRA traffic figures for existing N20

https://www.nratrafficdata.ie/c2/gmapbasic.asp?sgid=ZvyVmXU8jBt9PJE$c7UXt6

11,000 through Charleville
15,000 through Buttevant

Maybe this is why the road is so lowly prioritised? Compare with 20,000 north of Claregalway for instance.

If i was a higher up who knew nothing about either area, Id be putting the money towards the most benefactors (as they have).

Inter-Urbans need priority of course, but the numbers dont lie

TINA1984 · 27-11-2014 2:17pm

veryangryman wrote: »

Just looking at NRA traffic figures for existing N20

https://www.nratrafficdata.ie/c2/gmapbasic.asp?sgid=ZvyVmXU8jBt9PJE$c7UXt6

11,000 through Charleville
15,000 through Buttevant

Maybe this is why the road is so lowly prioritised? Compare with 20,000 north of Claregalway for instance.

If i was a higher up who knew nothing about either area, Id be putting the money towards the most benefactors (as they have).

Inter-Urbans need priority of course, but the numbers dont lie

Not sure about that seeing as current N20 AADTs in places easily match/surpass large swathes of the M18/M6/M8 & M9.

Cookiemunster · 27-11-2014 2:19pm

veryangryman wrote: »

Just looking at NRA traffic figures for existing N20

https://www.nratrafficdata.ie/c2/gmapbasic.asp?sgid=ZvyVmXU8jBt9PJE$c7UXt6

11,000 through Charleville
15,000 through Buttevant

Maybe this is why the road is so lowly prioritised? Compare with 20,000 north of Claregalway for instance.

If i was a higher up who knew nothing about either area, Id be putting the money towards the most benefactors (as they have).

Inter-Urbans need priority of course, but the numbers dont lie

It's so lowly priortised because it's the most expensive project left to be build. They can do the M11 upgrades, Newlands Cross, M17/18 and the New Ross bypass for a similar cost to building the M20.

Also while I obviously don't have precise numbers, I know a lot of people who travel from Limerick to Cork via Mitchelstown and the M8. Anything to avoid Charleville and Buttevant. A motorway would have higher AADT as people wouldn't be avoiding these towns.

Vanquished · 27-11-2014 2:49pm

veryangryman wrote: »

Just looking at NRA traffic figures for existing N20

https://www.nratrafficdata.ie/c2/gmapbasic.asp?sgid=ZvyVmXU8jBt9PJE$c7UXt6

11,000 through Charleville
15,000 through Buttevant

Maybe this is why the road is so lowly prioritised? Compare with 20,000 north of Claregalway for instance.

If i was a higher up who knew nothing about either area, Id be putting the money towards the most benefactors (as they have).

Inter-Urbans need priority of course, but the numbers dont lie

By the same measure the AADT north of Crusheen on the M18 is only 9,000. At Barefield just north of Ennis it's 11,000.

The reason for the lack of progress on the M20 is the cost of the project and the fact that planning of the scheme commenced pretty late in the day. The preferred route was only identified in 2009!

If it has any hope of going ahead in the foreseeable future it needs to be split up in to smaller segments. The most pressing section is south of Croom to Mallow.

munchkin_utd · 27-11-2014 3:24pm

Vanquished wrote: »

By the same measure the AADT north of Crusheen on the M18 is only 9,000. At Barefield just north of Ennis it's 11,000.

The reason for the lack of progress on the M20 is the cost of the project and the fact that planning of the scheme commenced pretty late in the day. The preferred route was only identified in 2009!

If it has any hope of going ahead in the foreseeable future it needs to be split up in to smaller segments. The most pressing section is south of Croom to Mallow.

if they came up with the sensible idea of making that less busy section just a 2+2 then it'd be somewhat more affordable too.

AugustusMinimus · 27-11-2014 4:29pm

munchkin_utd wrote: »

if they came up with the sensible idea of making that less busy section just a 2+2 then it'd be somewhat more affordable too.

Let's just do the whole thing correctly from the start instead of going down the route of half arsed measures for saving pennies.

irishfeen · 27-11-2014 4:54pm

AugustusMinimus wrote: »

Let's just do the whole thing correctly from the start instead of going down the route of half arsed measures for saving pennies.

Very much this .. The very last thing we want is a mess made of it. Do it once and do it right or don't do it at all.

Feed Up · 27-11-2014 6:20pm

AugustusMinimus wrote: »

Let's just do the whole thing correctly from the start instead of going down the route of half arsed measures for saving pennies.

Agree 100%.

No disrespect to, or to belittle, the families, relatives and friends of any person killed on our roads, but would a campaign similar to the white crosses of the N4 in Sligo and hounding the politicians get this project started.

Vanquished · 27-11-2014 9:45pm

Route consistency should be a priority along this corridor which ultimately links the three largest urban areas outside of Dublin.

Future proofing the route is prudent also. Something that happens all too rarely in this country. Except funnily enough in the case of the interurban motorway network.

marno21 · 29-11-2014 12:05am

Reported on Newstalk syndicated news tonight but can't find much about it online

http://www.live95fm.ie/news/fresh-hopes-for-limerick-cork-motorway/20613

Mc Love · 30-11-2014 11:59am

When an accident occurs on the N20 it's a nightmare for motorists, having to divert through small hick towns and an inferior road network, sometimes with only room for a truck to drive on.

It really needs to be prioritised.

zulutango · 03-12-2014 12:22pm

veryangryman wrote: »

Just looking at NRA traffic figures for existing N20

https://www.nratrafficdata.ie/c2/gmapbasic.asp?sgid=ZvyVmXU8jBt9PJE$c7UXt6

11,000 through Charleville
15,000 through Buttevant

Maybe this is why the road is so lowly prioritised? Compare with 20,000 north of Claregalway for instance.

If i was a higher up who knew nothing about either area, Id be putting the money towards the most benefactors (as they have).

Inter-Urbans need priority of course, but the numbers dont lie

You could also argue that so few are using the road because it is so bloody impassable.

Personally, I avoid trips to Cork from Limerick as much as possible because the road is a nightmare. I'm sure there are many thousands of people in both cities who fall into this category. The justification for improving a road or building a motorway should never be based solely on the numbers using the existing road.

Deedsie · 03-12-2014 9:07pm

zulutango wrote: »

You could also argue that so few are using the road because it is so bloody impassable.

Personally, I avoid trips to Cork from Limerick as much as possible because the road is a nightmare. I'm sure there are many thousands of people in both cities who fall into this category. The justification for improving a road or building a motorway should never be based solely on the numbers using the existing road.

Ya, I agree with this, a lot of people from North Tipperary drive to Thurles and use the M8 to Cork instead of M7 > M20 > N20 to Cork. I would definitely go via Limerick if the M20 was an option.

cjpm · 05-12-2014 12:38am

Side road junctions being surveyed again today between Mallow and Rathduff when I passed by....

Missyelliot2 · 05-12-2014 12:49am

I've never tried to get to Limerick via Mitchelstown- solely due to an abysmal sense of direction, but I hate the 'main' Cork-Limerick road- it is dangerous and horrible to drive.
But, it seems as is getting from Cork to Belfast without a traffic light is the priority!

lordhaha · 05-12-2014 2:38am

I think the cost in lives not euros should be considered here!!!

sonnyblack · 05-12-2014 9:01am

Missyelliot2 wrote: »

I've never tried to get to Limerick via Mitchelstown- solely due to an abysmal sense of direction, but I hate the 'main' Cork-Limerick road- it is dangerous and horrible to drive.
But, it seems as is getting from Cork to Belfast without a traffic light is the priority!

It's quite straightforward really. Once you take the jnuction off the M8 for mitchelstown, there is a link road around mitchelstown and you take the first exit for ballylanders at a roundabout on the other side of town. Straight run to the N24 for a few miles and drop down onto the M7 into Limerick. I use it all the time and gave up on the M20 years ago. No investment there since the Croom bypass in 2001. Pathetic, and more importantly costing more and more lives in its present condition.
I'd say that the bypass road around that new Dairygold factory in Macroom will be the only thing built in the short term. how on earth did the road get left so far behind in the boom.

Jhcx · 05-12-2014 10:14am

Tbh the ex lived in mitchelstown. I find it bit of an awkward drive out of the way to go to Cork city. maybe it's because I was coming from ennis but then again to get to Cork in general is a pain no decent roads

AugustusMinimus · 06-12-2014 12:34am

Be interesting what the 2023 World Cup bid could do for this project.

I have no doubt that the lack of motorway between the 3rd and 4th cities on the island could have a very negative effect on the bid. Potentially maybe for a fast build in the event of a bid win announcement in 2017.

Worse that this though is the potentially for a half arsed rush job in the event of a bid win. I'm thinking an awful online dual carriageway build.

irishfeen · 06-12-2014 1:21am

This weeks Corkman saying the proposed realignment of the main Annabella roundabout on the N20 in Mallow (needed due to Dairygold's expansion) has been given the go ahead by Cork County Council - they saying it will go to tender in the next few weeks and works are expected to begin in March or April... I pass through that roundabout every morning and evening - its going to be absolute chaos

Jhcx · 06-12-2014 10:21am

AugustusMinimus wrote: »

Be interesting what the 2023 World Cup bid could do for this project.

I have no doubt that the lack of motorway between the 3rd and 4th cities on the island could have a very negative effect on the bid. Potentially maybe for a fast build in the event of a bid win announcement in 2017.

Worse that this though is the potentially for a half arsed rush job in the event of a bid win. I'm thinking an awful online dual carriageway build.

Would a dual carriageway way be bad? Presuming if it was a quick build they wouldn't be using the same tactic of building it to motorway standard and then just applying for an upgrade?

Mc Love · 06-12-2014 12:28pm

Jhcx wrote: »

Would a dual carriageway way be bad? Presuming if it was a quick build they wouldn't be using the same tactic of building it to motorway standard and then just applying for an upgrade?

A dual carriage way would be a massive improvement

AugustusMinimus · 06-12-2014 7:32pm

Mc Love wrote: »

A dual carriage way would be a massive improvement

One of 3 things can be built.

Full motorway
Online HQDC without alternative route
2+2

Motorway is the only way to go with this road. HQDC with a 120kph is dangerous imo due to potential of having tractors, cyclists and pedestrians using the road.

2+2 would be wholly unacceptable. Simple as that.

marno21 · 06-12-2014 9:27pm

They should really do the whole thing from beginning to end as motorway but anything that has overtaking opportunities would be a good start. Stuck behind a car today from M20 J5 as far as Charleville. After coming off the motorway the car was driving at 80km/h before a brief period where he accelerated to 120km/h before slowing down to 60km/h from the Croom turnoff as far as Charleville where I turned off. By the time I got to Charleville there was 20+ cars behind me. I felt sorry for the ones that weren't taking the R515 turnoff

Carawaystick · 07-12-2014 12:53am

The Croome Bypass has always baffled me, the lanes are what ~4.5m wide each and huge hard shoulders,
but the thing is all bar one right turn from the road Northbound are grade seperated, why not all?

I'd not mind this being made fully grade separated D2, if it meant the rest south was HQDC or higher.
Or an online upgrade of the Croome bypass. The Land take for this should not be wasted.

I'd also think an online upgrade of the section out of Cork to just before it crosses the Rail line near Grenagh/Rathduff would be ok. Everywhere else has too many accesses and you;ld be worse than the N18 to Bunratty.

There are 50 kmh sections of Motorway(M50) and sections with no hard shoulder at all with 120 limits(M1) so it should be possible to implement motorway restrictions on D2. Sher Cork already has a second type of motorway under the Lee ( Pedestrians, Cyclists and horse drawn vehicles banned from the JLT)

AugustusMinimus · 07-12-2014 10:34am

Carawaystick wrote: »

The Croome Bypass has always baffled me, the lanes are what ~4.5m wide each and huge hard shoulders,
but the thing is all bar one right turn from the road Northbound are grade seperated, why not all?

I'd not mind this being made fully grade separated D2, if it meant the rest south was HQDC or higher.
Or an online upgrade of the Croome bypass. The Land take for this should not be wasted.

I'd also think an online upgrade of the section out of Cork to just before it crosses the Rail line near Grenagh/Rathduff would be ok. Everywhere else has too many accesses and you;ld be worse than the N18 to Bunratty.

There are 50 kmh sections of Motorway(M50) and sections with no hard shoulder at all with 120 limits(M1) so it should be possible to implement motorway restrictions on D2. Sher Cork already has a second type of motorway under the Lee ( Pedestrians, Cyclists and horse drawn vehicles banned from the JLT)

The plan for the M20 is to do online from Blarney to somewhere south of Mallow and for the northern section to be a completely new build.

As part of the online build, a new feeder road will also be built alongside the motorway to service houses and also to act as an alternative route to allow motorway designation.

As part as I know, the Croom bypass will not be used as part of the build. It is too fear east to tie in nicely with the proposed M20.

cjpm · 07-12-2014 11:56am

AugustusMinimus wrote: »

The plan for the M20 is to do online from Blarney to somewhere south of Mallow.....

Burnfort Junction

Vanquished · 07-12-2014 1:14pm

AugustusMinimus wrote: »

As part as I know, the Croom bypass will not be used as part of the build. It is too fear east to tie in nicely with the proposed M20.

The Croom bypass is to be upgraded to D2M as part of the plan. A single carriageway relief road around the village is also included.

AugustusMinimus · 07-12-2014 3:36pm

Vanquished wrote: »

The Croom bypass is to be upgraded to D2M as part of the plan. A single carriageway relief road around the village is also included.

I presume a separate road will have to be built to the side to give access to non motorway traffic ? Is that the relief road you mentioned ?

JupiterKid · 08-12-2014 12:31am

The land take for the Croom bypass is huge - as big as the N7 Nenagh bypass which was widened into the M7. Why it wasn't built as a D2 is baffling.

The first section of M20 needed is between Mallow and Charleville. It should have been built a decade ago.

Missyelliot2 · 08-12-2014 1:32am

marno21 wrote: »

They should really do the whole thing from beginning to end as motorway but anything that has overtaking opportunities would be a good start. Stuck behind a car today from M20 J5 as far as Charleville. After coming off the motorway the car was driving at 80km/h before a brief period where he accelerated to 120km/h before slowing down to 60km/h from the Croom turnoff as far as Charleville where I turned off. By the time I got to Charleville there was 20+ cars behind me. I felt sorry for the ones that weren't taking the R515 turnoff

Know exactly what you mean. What happened? How is this road so far behind? Why do we have almost get sponsorship to get through Charleville, Buttevant and Newtwopothouse? Would love to stay and enjoy these towns, but I want to go home. I'm sure there are fantastic fun spots in all of these places......but I just want to get home-Straight road-no Buttevant! No Charleville!

Vanquished · 08-12-2014 2:03am

AugustusMinimus wrote: »

I presume a separate road will have to be built to the side to give access to non motorway traffic ? Is that the relief road you mentioned ?

Yeah the existing N20 is to be realigned from in or around Anhid cemetary swinging around to the existing Croom junction. A link road extends from here running parallel to the proposed M20 as far as the local road from Croom to Adare where it connects to the former N20 (pre 2001) north of the village.

Presumably this is to ensure that non motorway traffic is kept away from the narrow main street in Croom.

M20 - Cork to Limerick [preferred route chosen; in design - phase 3]

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