Household Charge Mega-Thread [Part 2] Poll Reset

dvpower · 01-04-2012 5:07pm

gerryo777 wrote: »

762

gerryo777 wrote: »

Is it social justice that homeowners pay for local services and home renters don't?

I expect that landlords will incorporate this tax into rental charges, so renters, by and large, won't get off scot free.

Fariness is a subjective measure and all taxes are unfair in someones eyes. Is it fair that income tax is based on income and not means? I pay the same rate as someone with no mortgage or kids to rear. Is that fair? Maybe it is, maybe it isn't - it depends on who you ask.

MagicSean · 01-04-2012 5:07pm

robbie7730 wrote: »

Never said it did. Just wondering what the point of sending a leaflet to tell me i can avail of installments last week would be.

Maybe you can answer that?

That's likely due to incompetence.

hondasam · 01-04-2012 5:07pm

paddy147 wrote: »

Is it just me,or dont you think its been a fair while now Alastairs last post here??

Now I wonder why??:rolleyes:

Usually when he cannot answer a question he hides for awhile, I think my last one was about land registry.
Then again he could be cooking the dinner or having a bath or I dunno maybe on the way home from work.

paddy147 · 01-04-2012 5:08pm

Alastair has left the forum....:rolleyes:

Is it something I asked or said???:D

paddy147 · 01-04-2012 5:11pm

hondasam wrote: »

Usually when he cannot answer a question he hides for awhile, .

Then again he could be cooking.......................

...........................cooking up another bullsh!t post and excuse to get out of this one,over non payment of the poll tax,but then all his" Mr Do Gooder" posts here over the household charge.:rolleyes::rolleyes:

tayto lover · 01-04-2012 5:15pm

The whole thing is now a shambles. They don't know how many homeowners there are in the country or how many homes for that matter. Confusion reigns.

http://www.rte.ie/news/2012/0401/over-800-000-register-for-household-charge.html

How are they ever going to find them if they don't know they exist ?
Shambles. They just thought everyone would register and pay and when the majority didn't they are totally lost.

Roverek · 01-04-2012 5:16pm

martingriff wrote: »

Just because some most of public servants get ridiculous allowances does not mean we all do. How much do you think the lowest (not the average now) public servant get paid. As in all sectors some get paid high and some get paid low. Unfortunatly in the public sector the higher paid get paid way more then they should and it can scews the stats

You know deep in your heart that PS are overpaid ignorants, and NO private business will employ them, becouse they are not able to do antything properly. IT IS THE FACT!!! That is why this country is f.cked! But you do not care as long as you get your unfair wages. Well you take money from poor irish children in order to buy nice shoes FACT!!!!

mikom · 01-04-2012 5:18pm

paddy147 wrote: »

Alastair has left the forum....:rolleyes:

Probably gone to join Phil on "it's only ok if I object to it" island.
All aboard the SS HYPOCRITE.

ENVIRONMENT Minister Phil Hogan, who is in the eye of a storm over the household charge, is refusing to pay service charges on his penthouse apartment in Portugal, the Sunday Independent can reveal.

Mr Hogan, who has an apartment in Villamoura on the Algarve, has an outstanding service charge of €4,320, according to a 'debtors' list document dated March 27.

Yesterday, the minister confirmed that fees "of that order" were outstanding but said that he was in dispute with the apartment complex's management company.

"Would you pay a charge if you were unhappy with the service?" he asked.

"This has nothing to do with public services."

Bruthal · 01-04-2012 5:20pm

paddy147 wrote: »

Alastair has left the forum....:rolleyes:

Is it something I asked or said???:D

paddy147 wrote: »

...........................cooking up another bullsh!t post and excuse to get out of this one,over non payment of the poll tax,but then all his" Mr Do Gooder" posts here over the household charge.:rolleyes::rolleyes:

There was a good dissapearance when he tried to discredit a few posters through grammar nazi tactics a week or 2 ago, but it came back to bite in the best way it can where them grammar one`s are involved.

Gone for an entire day. Posted in another thread though.

tayto lover · 01-04-2012 5:21pm

mikom wrote: »

Probably gone to join Phil on "it's only ok if I object to it" island.
All aboard the SS HYPOCRITE.

Hogan is a hypocrite. Out and out hypocrite if this is true. He wants us to pay for very poor services while he refuses to pay for very poor services himself.

Roverek · 01-04-2012 5:24pm

tayto lover wrote: »

How are they ever going to find them if they don't know they exist ?
Shambles. They just thought everyone would register and pay and when the majority didn't they are totally lost.

That is the point! Only fools register hahahahahihihihihihahahahihihihi. PS would never find out how many home owners are they. Don't you get it?

Vizzy · 01-04-2012 5:25pm

Royal Legend wrote: »

I know of someone who is paying it €25 per quarter, he is in the PS, maybe they get special dispensation to pay different to the joe soap tax payer,

If he is paying €25 per quarter he must have registered before the end of Feb.
Other than that he can be in the PS,the Freemasons or the KluKluxKlan he will still have to pay it in one lumpsum.

gerryo777 · 01-04-2012 5:29pm

paddy147 wrote: »

Where has Alastair gone too??

He has suddenly gone awfully quiet.:D

Him and DV always go missing together.:eek:

gerryo777 · 01-04-2012 5:30pm

hondasam wrote: »

Because alastair had to pay.

But he didn't....

gerryo777 · 01-04-2012 5:32pm

paddy147 wrote: »

Is it just me,or dont you think its been a fair while now Alastairs last post here??

Now I wonder why??:rolleyes:

Hopefully he got banned again.

martingriff · 01-04-2012 5:36pm

emo72 wrote: »

they tried to introduce a water tax over 10 years ago. it was scrapped. i told you this earlier. massive non payment.

why are you so adamant that it cant happen again? absolutely no doubt in your mind? i could never be so convinced about anything. i admire the strength of your convictions. i have never encountered a person who was as sure as you.

i salute you.

Wont be scrapped as a lot did pay. This was done terribly by the goverment but there is a property tax coming no one will be paying the same but you will be paying more than the €100 (even if they have a wiver and they should for stamp duty.)

On Water charges that will be coming and it is not free. My parents are allready paying it and metered in a water scheme. So I will be all for it

Roverek · 01-04-2012 5:41pm

martingriff wrote: »

Wont be scrapped as a lot did pay.

They used to say STATE WILL NEVER PAY PRIVATE DEBTS :-). Never say never.

paddy147 · 01-04-2012 5:42pm

Well Im off to have my evening meal.

I will bid you all a good evening now.

At least I didnt just scamper off and hide like DV Power and Alaister have both done since the "I didnt pay the poll tax because its unfair " bit came back to bite Alastair in the ar5e.

What goes round comes around,eh?

Evening all.:D

Royal Legend · 01-04-2012 5:45pm

Just thinking again, the government has been saying how "we have to pay our way" "we have to be seen to pay our bills" "we won't be seen to renage on what we owe europe"
All this has been bull sh ite imo, as in they were using it as an excuse to pay the bondholders, now, looking at Mr Hogans response to his portugese bill, he won't pay, "because its unfair"

Well Mr Hogan, and Mr Kenny and Mr Shatter, I have a life and as a patriotic Irishman I wont pay the service charge, because, I think its unfair, I thinks its also unfair that we are being burdened for bailing out Anglo Irish bank and a CEO who earns 800k plus per annum and I think its unfair that we are also paying bondholders who gambled money they never had in the first place.

martingriff · 01-04-2012 5:46pm

Roverek wrote: »

You know deep in your heart that PS are overpaid ignorants, and NO private business will employ them, becouse they are not able to do antything properly. IT IS THE FACT!!! That is why this country is f.cked! But you do not care as long as you get your unfair wages. Well you take money from poor irish children in order to buy nice shoes FACT!!!!

1st of all what the f$%k do you know of my circumstances. I do work for the public sector but i am no mean rich. I earn €402 if you want to know and get no allowances. (How about you check by googling the wages and not believing the INDO and others)

I will agree with you there are people working in the public service that are a waste of space and should be told to go away and sack them but thhey are a minority and there is a lot of people now non union who wish this would change. Trust me when I say this it is going to. The CPA will be scrapped by the end of this year there will be angry words by the union and treats of strike (some will I am sure) but there is a lot of workers now knowing that change will happen. Hopefully it will start with everyone in the public sector and not a few.

hondasam · 01-04-2012 5:49pm

gerryo777 wrote: »

But he didn't....

I know he didn't pay but he was expected to pay.

Freddie59 · 01-04-2012 5:50pm

Bishop_Donal wrote: »

freeloading mentality

Like the one in Dail Eireann?

martingriff · 01-04-2012 5:50pm

Roverek wrote: »

That is the point! Only fools register hahahahahihihihihihahahahihihihi. PS would never find out how many home owners are they. Don't you get it?

Ever here of the land registry

Freddie59 · 01-04-2012 5:52pm

paddy147 wrote: »

That cant be right,or can it?

That the charge for next year.....1,050 euro???????:eek::eek::eek:

I would say so........unless, again, you're discriminated against by owning your own and not costing the government a cent to furnish you with it.

lugha · 01-04-2012 5:52pm

tayto lover wrote: »

Hogan is a hypocrite. Out and out hypocrite if this is true. He wants us to pay for very poor services while he refuses to pay for very poor services himself.

Not quite. The link between this Hogan story and the household charge is simply spurious. While the government have played the card that this charge is to fund local services, the arrangements for paying taxes or charges is not the same as paying for privately agreed charges.

If my takeaway does not deliver what I order, or my window cleaner does not clean my windows properly or any other private arrangement does not deliver the goods or services to my satisfaction then I will take the provider to task. Most of the time these things get sorted amiably but either they or I can resort to the courts if we do not get satisfaction in any other way. There is no difference between big Phil and me, or any of you (assuming as I do that you are not chumps

)

Your public obligation under a charge or tax is not the same. You do not in general have the right to withhold or modify the charge in light of poor service (perhaps you should have, but I recall no precedence where you do).

I cannot adjust the amount I pay for TV licence to take account for the amount of Irish TV I watch. I cannot adjust my motor tax payment to take account of the quality or extent of the roads I use. I cannot adjust my general tax contributions to take account of the quality of the services I should be getting from the state. Etc. etc.

If Phil had reneged on the equivalent of the house charge in Portugal you would have something. If he had lost a court challenge on the issue and not paid up you would have something. But on what we know about the story so far you have nothing.

Which of course is not to say you won’t get a bit of mileage out of it and cause Phil a little embarrassment. But I think you the no side will need more ammunition that this if they are going to win the day.

Freddie59 · 01-04-2012 5:53pm

paddy147 wrote: »

I think big Phill will have to go and resign now,if the Indo story is completely true.

Won't happen Paddy. Think of the Government makeup. A so-called "socialist" party putting tax-paying workers under a conservative right-wing cosh.

Freddie59 · 01-04-2012 5:56pm

alastair wrote: »

That's neither a household charge, nor a tax. It's a service charge with a private firm. Otherwise...

Ah, Alastair. Phil's cheerleader. Doesn't matter. It's a bill. Which he refuses to pay. Because he thinks it's wrong. Sound familiar? I see you've omitted to answer these questions again:

1. Do you think it is fair that the taxpayer is asked to continues to pay for the €400m a week currently being borrowed so that Public sector workers and Civil Servants can continue to enjoy their high wages and "entitlements"?

2. Do you think it is right that 160,000 households are exempt from a "household charge" when they can well afford to pay it?

3. Do you think it is right that a banker can receive remuneration of €823k per annum, when that bank is owned by a state which is practically bankrupt?

4. How long do you think this country will be allowed to borrow €400m A WEEK?

Freddie59 · 01-04-2012 5:57pm

lugha wrote: »

Not quite. The link between this Hogan story and the household charge is simply spurious. While the government have played the card that this charge is to fund local services, the arrangements for paying taxes or charges is not the same as paying for privately agreed charges.

Key word for you: principle. Something which, apparently, Phil doesn't hold dear.:rolleyes:

Freddie59 · 01-04-2012 5:59pm

ArmaniJeanss wrote: »

You generally come across as having a functioning brain, so I'm sure it hasn't escaped your notice that it's not actually a tax that Hogan is not paying, its a dispute between an apartment owner and a managment company. Yet you've chosen to make some false comparison with taxes.

Is this the standard of debating we can expect from your new party?

And you are not, obviously, a principled person. This guy is lecturing all and sundry, along with his FG hicks, about responsibilities and then absconds his own? Get a grip man.

mikom · 01-04-2012 5:59pm

Originally Posted by paddy147
I think big Phill will have to go and resign now,if the Indo story is completely true.

Freddie59 wrote: »

Won't happen Paddy. Think of the Government makeup. A so-called "socialist" party putting tax-paying workers under a conservative right-wing cosh.

This story may have more legs.....

From the Oireachtas website under the section of Register of Members Interests

HOGAN, Phil (Carlow-Kilkenny)

1. Occupational Income …….. Nil

2. Shares …………………….. Nil

3. Directorships……………… Auctioneering: Hogan Company Ltd., Main St., Urlingford, Co. Kilkenny: sale of property.

4. Land ……………………… Nil

5. Gifts ……………………… Honorary Membership of Mount Juliet Golf and Country Club: Mount Juliet Ltd., Thomastown, Co. Kilkenny.

6. Property and Service …….. Nil

7. Travel Facilities ………….. Nil

8. Remunerated Position ……. Nil

9. Contracts …………………. Nil

Where is the holiday home?
The holiday home that Phil could have sold when he said he was "unable to take a paycut due to his personal circumstances.
And the sycophants for the household charge here would have you believe you should sell the sole family home and rent if you cant pay the taxes.

They can fuck off and die as far as I am concerned.
Snakes.

lividduck · 01-04-2012 6:00pm

What really galls me , what really really gets to me is big Phil the chancer linking paying the tax to patriotism!
It was insulting to those who paid out of fear , or paid because they felt they had to obey an unjust law, and it was particularly insulting to those who refused to pay on principle , he is one right can of p**s cnut!:mad::mad:

lugha · 01-04-2012 6:00pm

Freddie59 wrote: »

Key word for you: principle. Something which, apparently, Phil doesn't hold dear.:rolleyes:

Don't think so Freddie. Would you pay a private contractor whose work you were not satisfied with, as a matter of principle? I certainly wouldn't.

Freddie59 · 01-04-2012 6:00pm

alastair wrote: »

A contract is subject to mutual agreement - the service company might well be in breach of the terms of the contract - we just don't know. The household charge however doesn't require the agreement of the taxed individual - breach of contract isn't a defence for non-payment.

Splitting hairs. He - and the rest of you - are caught in the headlights and don't like it.

lividduck · 01-04-2012 6:01pm

mikom wrote: »

[/I]

This story may have more legs.....

Where is the holiday home?
The holiday home that Phil could have sold when he said he was "unable to take a paycut due to his personal circumstances.
And the sycophants for the household charge here would have you believe you should sell the sole family home and if you cant pay the taxes.

Well done Mikom!
Big Phil, some Ffing patriot!

Freddie59 · 01-04-2012 6:01pm

lugha wrote: »

Don't think so Freddie. Would you pay a private contractor whose work you were not satisfied with, as a matter of principle? I certainly wouldn't.

Look, PH has been on and on about responsibility, blah, blah. You can spin this any way you like. It doesn't change it - you MUST lead by example. In EVERY way.

Freddie59 · 01-04-2012 6:04pm

dvpower wrote: »

Why did you represent this private service charge as a tax, biggins?
Dishonest spinning on your part?

Pointing out the sheer hypocrisy of it I would say.

Freddie59 · 01-04-2012 6:06pm

dvpower wrote: »

Biggins, you do post an awful lot of rubbish without thinking it through.

This is a private dispute that we don't know the details of. If it were anyone else in dispute with their management company and they simply paid up, they would be called sheep around here.

Ah, DV, you have some neck. After some of the stuff you posted here. Biggins is one of the most consistently fair, analytical, and articulate posters on boards.ie.

lugha · 01-04-2012 6:07pm

Freddie59 wrote: »

Look, PH has been on and on about responsibility, blah, blah. You can spin this any way you like. It doesn't change it - you MUST lead by example. In EVERY way.

So pay for something even if you honestly don't think you are obliged to? Well, I simply disagree.
BTW, would you include in that principled stance the idea of Ireland paying for the failed banks (though most of us think we shouldn't) because our European "friends" think we should?:pac:

Freddie59 · 01-04-2012 6:07pm

dvpower wrote: »

The tax is legally payable.
The service charge is in dispute.

But morally they're both the same thing. Anyone who even tries to defend it is, well, as silly as the person caught out in the lie in the first instance.

MagicSean · 01-04-2012 6:07pm

Freddie59 wrote: »

Pointing out the sheer hypocrisy of it I would say.

It's easy to fing hypocrisy if you just make **** up.

Le_Dieux · 01-04-2012 6:08pm

lividduck wrote: »

What really galls me , what really really gets to me is big Phil the chancer linking paying the tax to patriotism!
It was insulting to those who paid out of fear , or paid because they felt they had to obey an unjust law, and it was particularly insulting to those who refused to pay on principle , he is one right can of p**s cnut!:mad::mad:

Hear Hear Lividduck.

This party are nothing more that fcuking dictators. The estate I live in the builder went bust 2 weeks ago. We did everything about this, only to ber told, pay up this year and it will be reviewed next year.

BULL****..I didn't pay, and nor will I!! Why? Because I'm not (quote oul phil) 'not happy with the service.

Freddie59 · 01-04-2012 6:08pm

lugha wrote: »

So pay for something even if you honestly don't think you are obliged to? Well, I simply disagree.
BTW, would you include in that principled stance the idea of Ireland paying for the failed banks (though most of us think we shouldn't) because our European "friends" think we should?:pac:

No way. I've been consistent in my denouncing of what is, essentially, financial treason. Phil has been caught out. And if he had any backbone would resign immediately.

Freddie59 · 01-04-2012 6:09pm

MagicSean wrote: »

It's easy to fing hypocrisy if you just make **** up.

So the holiday home non-payment is made up then?:rolleyes:

Royal Legend · 01-04-2012 6:09pm

lugha wrote: »

Not quite. The link between this Hogan story and the household charge is simply spurious. While the government have played the card that this charge is to fund local services, the arrangements for paying taxes or charges is not the same as paying for privately agreed charges.

If my takeaway does not deliver what I order, or my window cleaner does not clean my windows properly or any other private arrangement does not deliver the goods or services to my satisfaction then I will take the provider to task. Most of the time these things get sorted amiably but either they or I can resort to the courts if we do not get satisfaction in any other way. There is no difference between big Phil and me, or any of you (assuming as I do that you are not chumps )

Your public obligation under a charge or tax is not the same. You do not in general have the right to withhold or modify the charge in light of poor service (perhaps you should have, but I recall no precedence where you do).

I cannot adjust the amount I pay for TV licence to take account for the amount of Irish TV I watch. I cannot adjust my motor tax payment to take account of the quality or extent of the roads I use. I cannot adjust my general tax contributions to take account of the quality of the services I should be getting from the state. Etc. etc.

If Phil had reneged on the equivalent of the house charge in Portugal you would have something. If he had lost a court challenge on the issue and not paid up you would have something. But on what we know about the story so far you have nothing.

Which of course is not to say you won’t get a bit of mileage out of it and cause Phil a little embarrassment. But I think you the no side will need more ammunition that this if they are going to win the day.

The NO side won the day, more than half the people that were supposed to pay, did not. which means the NO vote won :rolleyes:

Freddie59 · 01-04-2012 6:10pm

alastair wrote: »

I'm not defending Phil Hogan. Maybe he should have paid his service, charge, maybe he shouldn't - I've no idea - nor do you. What is clear is that the issue has nothing to do with evading taxes.

Bollocks. And you know it.

MagicSean · 01-04-2012 6:10pm

Le_Dieux wrote: »

Hear Hear Lividduck.

This party are nothing more that fcuking dictators. The estate I live in the builder went bust 2 weeks ago. We did everything about this, only to ber told, pay up this year and it will be reviewed next year.

BULL****..I didn't pay, and nor will I!! Why? Because I'm not (quote oul phil) 'not happy with the service.

So you aren't happy with the dodgy builder you got involved with and will show this by not paying a government levy? Makes sense. Taxi man overcharged me last week so I've stopped paying my car tax.

Freddie59 · 01-04-2012 6:11pm

alastair wrote: »

Maybe they can determine the distinction between a private contract dispute and tax evasion?

Or define sheer hypocrisy?

Freddie59 · 01-04-2012 6:12pm

alastair wrote: »

It's a tax. Don't know how many times this nonsense has been wheeled out.

If it's a tax why is every household not liable?

lugha · 01-04-2012 6:12pm

Freddie59 wrote: »

No way. I've been consistent in my denouncing of what is, essentially, financial treason.

Yes I know you have. I am just wondering how you square this with your principles that if someone says you should pay up, you do so without question. Maybe that's where Cowen went wrong? Too principled!

MagicSean · 01-04-2012 6:12pm

Freddie59 wrote: »

So the holiday home non-payment is made up then?:rolleyes:

It's not a government levy. It's a contractual matter. Your suggesting that it would be prefectly legitimate for you to go into your local Spar and refuse to pay vat because you found out that the manager hasn't paid his carpenter for some shoddy work he did.

Household Charge Mega-Thread [Part 2] *Poll Reset*

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Household Charge Mega-Thread [Part 2] Poll Reset