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Mass unmarked grave for 800 babies in Tuam

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  • Registered Users Posts: 102 ✭✭NS77


    The difference is that this used to be a horrible stigma, and now it's only a minor nuisance getting into a primary school.

    More than a minor nuisance, I would say


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 4,678 ✭✭✭I Heart Internet


    So in his mind he was damning the child to hell? Nice. He should be reported to the archbishop.

    I've certainly hear anecdotes of babies being refused baptism in some areas.

    I've never heard a direct report of it, just some hearsay. But what do i know?

    Any priest that refuses to baptise a child (or anyone else) should be reported to his bishop immediately. There is no compelling reason I can think of why anyone should be denied baptism.


  • Posts: 0 ✭✭✭✭ [Deleted User]


    With all due respect to all involved in the thread, can we try and stay on topic?

    This is an atrocity that doesn't particularly need additional anecdotes to flesh it out.


  • Moderators, Technology & Internet Moderators, Regional South East Moderators Posts: 28,467 Mod ✭✭✭✭Cabaal


    Any priest that refuses to baptise a child (or anyone else) should be reported to his bishop immediately. There is no compelling reason I can think of why anyone should be denied baptism.

    and yet they did it by the thousands for decades as per the RCC own policy's, go figure
    :rolleyes:

    How you can claim that there is no reason is beyond me, sure the bible says its wrong to do it....the same book that says being gay is bad and all the other nonsense. You know, the book the church bases its entire religion on!.
    Deuteronomy 23:2 "The child begotten out of wedlock or incest shall not enter into the congregation of the Lord; even to his tenth generation shall he not enter into the congregation of the Lord."


  • Registered Users Posts: 22,242 ✭✭✭✭Akrasia


    I've never heard a direct report of it, just some hearsay. But what do i know?

    Any priest that refuses to baptise a child (or anyone else) should be reported to his bishop immediately. There is no compelling reason I can think of why anyone should be denied baptism.
    Me neither. I was about to say 'surely 'not believing in god' would be a good reason to deny baptism but then I remembered that the vast majority of people who are baptised aren't even self aware and have absolutely no concept of what a belief in god might even be. (young infants)


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  • Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 19,219 Mod ✭✭✭✭Bannasidhe


    The Sacred Heart Nuns have issued a statement saying they would support an independent enquiry and cooperate fully.

    They ran Bessborough in Cork - a name that instilled fear in many a Cork woman and they certainly have some questions to answer if this case is any indication.
    Mary wasn’t allowed to travel to hospital with her son, she wasn’t allowed to visit him — even once. When he died in hospital six weeks later, she wasn’t allowed to attend his funeral.

    “I don’t know if he was buried in a coffin, if he was buried in a gown. They wouldn’t tell me anything,” she sobs.

    It was through two nuns squabbling that Mary had learned that a dirty needle had been used on her during her labour at Bessborough Mother and Baby Home in Cork.

    It took another 31 years and a visit to Bessborough however before the Sacred Heart nuns admitted to Mary that her baby boy had died of septicaemia.

    When she then sought her son’s medical notes, she was handed a sheet of paper with 90% of the details redacted except for Mary’s name and that of her parents.

    She then asked to put a plaque on her son’s grave at Bessborough and she was told “No”. There are a number of graves in the grounds of Bessborough but much of the burial area is off bounds to the public.
    http://www.irishexaminer.com/analysis/lsquoyou-became-so-frightened-eventually-you-toed-the-linersquo-271018.html


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 4,678 ✭✭✭I Heart Internet


    Cabaal wrote: »
    and yet they did it by the thousands for decades as per the RCC own policy's, go figure
    :rolleyes:

    I honestly don't know if there was ever any policy to deny baptism to any child born out of wedlock.

    I'm not trying to pick a fight, but I really don't think there ever was. As badly as the RCC failed mothers and children in Ireland, I don't think there was ever a policy that any child be denied a baptism (even if it occured within the walls of one of these homes). Please correct me if I'm wrong.


  • Registered Users Posts: 837 ✭✭✭Going Strong


    Bannasidhe wrote: »
    The Sacred Heart Nuns have issued a statement saying they would support an independent enquiry and cooperate fully.

    They ran Bessborough in Cork - a name that instilled fear in many a Cork woman and they certainly have some questions to answer if this case is any indication.

    http://www.irishexaminer.com/analysis/lsquoyou-became-so-frightened-eventually-you-toed-the-linersquo-271018.html

    I grew up near Bessborough. We pre-teen kids certainly knew what the place was for - unmarried mothers to give birth in near-secrecy. Any attempts to get into the grounds would have you chased off as soon as you were spotted.


  • Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 19,219 Mod ✭✭✭✭Bannasidhe


    jimgoose wrote: »
    Gardaí have always been involved. They and the Church were historically two cheeks of the same arse, and still are to a large extent. This sort of mindset is illustrated nicely by their recent rather bizarre statement regarding the Tuam site being a relic of the Famine. Lot of concrete tanks and slabs around in them days right enough, squire.

    Philip Boucher-Hayes had some words to say about the Gardaí in his blog yesterday

    http://philipboucher-hayes.com/2014/06/04/tuam-babies-the-evidence/


  • Moderators, Technology & Internet Moderators, Regional South East Moderators Posts: 28,467 Mod ✭✭✭✭Cabaal


    I honestly don't know if there was ever any policy to deny baptism to any child born out of wedlock.

    I'm not trying to pick a fight, but I really don't think there ever was. As badly as the RCC failed mothers and children in Ireland, I don't think there was ever a policy that any child be denied a baptism (even if it occured within the walls of one of these homes). Please correct me if I'm wrong.

    So you think that individually priests and nuns just all decided that children outside of marriage should not be baptised and should just be buried in unmarked graves?

    You think they had no direction from the Vatican, Archbishops etc? Seriously?

    Stop being an apologist for the catholic church, it makes you look foolish when you try to defend or direct away from one thing after another. You made a show of yourself yesterday already in fairness.


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  • Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 19,219 Mod ✭✭✭✭Bannasidhe


    I grew up near Bessborough. We pre-teen kids certainly knew what the place was for - unmarried mothers to give birth in near-secrecy. Any attempts to get into the grounds would have you chased off as soon as you were spotted.

    Ya, I grew up near there too. Remember hearing adults talk about some 'poor girl hauled off to Bessborough' but they would go quiet if they noticed kids listening.

    Bessborough was where the unmarried pregnant women/girls we sent and The Good Shepard's was where you were threatened with for being 'bold'.

    'Magdalen Asylums' were not exclusively for unmarried and pregnant - they were also a dumping ground for those deemed 'difficult'
    It has been estimated that around 30,000 women were admitted during the 150-year history of the Magdalen institutions. Most were incarcerated against their will at the request of family members or priests for reasons such as prostitution, being an unmarried mother, being developmentally challenged or abused. Even young girls who were considered too promiscuous and flirtatious were sometimes sent to the Magdalen Asylum.
    http://www.abandonedireland.com/mc.html

    Priests could and did over rule family and have women/girls committed.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 10,250 ✭✭✭✭bumper234


    Just sent to Gardai press office

    press@garda.ie

    To whom it may concern.

    In light of the recent revelations about the possible burial of up to 800 small children’s bodies in a sewage tank on the grounds of the old Bon Secours home I would like an explanation as to why the Gardai are refusing to investigate this. As a tax paying citizen of Ireland I am hereby making a report of a possible crime that may have happened on the site of this home and wish it to be investigated. The Gardai have the details of this site and know exactly where the sewage tank is located so it will not take a lot of time or manpower to investigate this.

    Many regards,

    Bumper234


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 6,113 ✭✭✭shruikan2553


    bumper234 wrote: »
    Just sent to Gardai press office

    press@garda.ie

    To whom it may concern.

    In light of the recent revelations about the possible burial of up to 800 small children’s bodies in a sewage tank on the grounds of the old Bon Secours home I would like an explanation as to why the Gardai are refusing to investigate this. As a tax paying citizen of Ireland I am hereby making a report of a possible crime that may have happened on the site of this home and wish it to be investigated. The Gardai have the details of this site and know exactly where the sewage tank is located so it will not take a lot of time or manpower to investigate this.

    Many regards,

    Bumper234

    If they try the whole famine thing ask them to provide a map of where the bodies were found and how they were dated.

    Still waiting to hear back from the UN human rights council myself.


  • Registered Users Posts: 16,686 ✭✭✭✭Zubeneschamali


    Please correct me if I'm wrong.

    You are not wrong: the 1917 version of Canon law has no prohibition on baptizing the illegitimate, and even gives instructions: "Where it concerns illegitimate children, the mother's name shall be insterted...blah blah".


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 2,257 ✭✭✭GCU Flexible Demeanour


    Bannasidhe wrote: »
    The Sacred Heart Nuns have issued a statement saying they would support an independent enquiry and cooperate fully.
    No doubt, spurred on by news of the Mount Anville Past Pupils Union disbanding in protest.


  • Moderators, Technology & Internet Moderators, Regional South East Moderators Posts: 28,467 Mod ✭✭✭✭Cabaal


    http://www.broadsheet.ie/2014/06/05/there-is-no-garda-investigation/
    RTE’s Drivetime reporter Philip Boucher Hayes writes:

    “This figure of 800 dead babies (which incidentally excludes the stillborn) has been generated, and double checked, by an arm of government….
    …This does not prove, as some have alleged, that the nuns negligently let children starve to death. But it does establish what some seek to deny – that there is every reason to believe up to 800 bodies were in the literal sense of the word unceremoniously discarded there.

    That is not the view of the Gardaí though. They have set their faces against an investigation without apparently considering any of this evidence. They sent me the following statement this afternoon, even after the government had made its own announcement about a review of the evidence.

    ‘Hello Philip, The grounds in Tuam were being surveyed in 2012 and bones were found, they are historical burials going back to Famine times,there is no suggestion of any impropiety and there is no Garda investigation . Also there is no confirmation from any source that there are between 750 and 800 bodies present.

    There was a discovery of famine era bones in the vicinity in 2011 as “The Home” was a workhouse up until the turn of the century.

    The location of that site is about 100 yards away from the septic tank burial site. So the Gardaí are misinformed on this or have decided to find a reason not to investigate any closer. Because to claim that there is no source confirming the presence of any bodies there is to wilfully ignore myriad evidence in the public domain.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 4,678 ✭✭✭I Heart Internet


    Cabaal wrote: »
    So you think that individually priests and nuns just all decided that children outside of marriage should not be baptised and should just be buried in unmarked graves?

    I don't think there has ever been, and certainly not in the timeframe of the Tuam case, any direction from the Vatican that illegitimate children should not be baptised.

    I think where individual priests (or nuns) refuse(d) baptism for a child, they were and are going entirely against the teaching of their own church (not to mention being cvnts for refusing a child a baptism on any grounds).

    I suspect (but can't know of course) that all of the children, whose remains appear to have been disposed of in Tuam would have been baptised at or very shortly after birth.

    As I say, correct me if I'm wrong.

    I should say, baptised or not, the manner of their alleged treatment before and after death is nothing short of disgusting.


  • Registered Users Posts: 3,748 ✭✭✭Flippyfloppy


    Fair play to Catherine Murphy live now Leaders Questions on Rte 1


  • Registered Users Posts: 16,686 ✭✭✭✭Zubeneschamali


    I suspect (but can't know of course) that all of the children, whose remains appear to have been disposed of in Tuam would have been baptised at or very shortly after birth.

    Whereas I will bet cash money that none of them were baptised. If they had been, they would have been buried in the adjoining graveyard, which is consecrated ground. Their bodies were dumped instead precisely because they were not baptised.

    The fact that this practice was not based on Canon Law just shows that our local Irish version of Roman Catholicism was even more twisted then the Official Version As Wrote In Books.


  • Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 9,441 ✭✭✭old hippy


    Back in the mid- 1980's I was living in London. My girlfriend struck up a friendship with a guy who was about 16 or 17 and from Galway. He told her he'd been abused by the parish priest but nobody would believe him. When the priest found out about the complaints, he denounced the boy from the pulpit and encouraged the parish to have nothing more to do with him. 16 years of age and ostracised from his community on the word of the person who abused him. One story, amongst many. Too many.

    I met this chap in Putney some years back. He would have been in his late 50s at the time and he was at one of those schools or orphanages for boys back in Ireland. At the time, there was yet another abuse scandal breaking at home. He told me that I "wouldn't believe the things that were done to us in those places, there was no God or morals there". :(

    He said that "only the tip of the iceberg" had surfaced.


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  • Closed Accounts Posts: 4,678 ✭✭✭I Heart Internet


    Whereas I will bet cash money that none of them were baptised. If they had been, they would have been buried in the adjoining graveyard, which is consecrated ground. Their bodies were dumped instead precisely because they were not baptised.

    The fact that this practice was not based on Canon Law just shows that our local Irish version of Roman Catholicism was even more twisted then the Official Version As Wrote In Books.

    You could well be right.


  • Registered Users Posts: 3,748 ✭✭✭Flippyfloppy


    Apologies if this has already been posted, saw it on Catherine Murphys twitter. This is a Prime Time of May of last year, regarding drug trials in Mother and Baby homes :(

    http://www.rte.ie/news/player/prime-time/2013/0513/


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 1,070 ✭✭✭Birroc


    Neyite wrote: »
    Not anymore for me anyway. You may remember I had capitulated to agreeing to a catholic wedding service, but I am refusing to do that now. I hope to have more children and I do not intend to baptise. I deeply regret baptising the one I have, and really wish I could count us all out of Catholicism. I'm done after this.

    I had one child baptised but did not do so for my 2nd child after reading the Ryan report. Neither will do communion/confirmation. And you know, I am so relieved we have made that decision. The Roman organisation disturbs me and their actions gnaw at my well being. Glad to be out.


  • Registered Users Posts: 150 ✭✭paudgenator




  • Closed Accounts Posts: 9,088 ✭✭✭SpaceTime


    Back in the mid- 1980's I was living in London. My girlfriend struck up a friendship with a guy who was about 16 or 17 and from Galway. He told her he'd been abused by the parish priest but nobody would believe him. When the priest found out about the complaints, he denounced the boy from the pulpit and encouraged the parish to have nothing more to do with him. 16 years of age and ostracised from his community on the word of the person who abused him. One story, amongst many. Too many.

    I have heard horror stories about these mother and baby homes from middle aged women in the 2000s.

    I also know my great grandmother knew someone who was in one and to get out was forced to mary a man in his late 70s when she was only maybe 22. She had to literally escape to England. As far as I know she just waited for him to die of old age before she got remarried herself later on but she never set foot in Ireland again. She even deliberately erased her accent and cut off all contact with her family who had put her into the home in the first place.

    I heard other horror stories about a woman the conditions in those places and how they were treated. I encountered her in the 2000s and she was really, really screwed up by the experience.

    I also have an elderly relative who couldn't walk without pain for years and years and recently after a CT scan to assess her hips, discovered that she had had a symphisiotomy without her knowledge or consent.

    Other than that, my granny was told by a priest that the reason her eldest child was gravely ill was because she wasn't accepting god's will and only had 3 children! She stopped going to mass that week.

    On top of that I've heard first hand accounts of industrial schools that would make you feel physically ill.

    It's depressing to think there are people still defending the organisation(s).

    Religiously speaking I am and always have been an atheist. I can't remember any time when I took it all seriously. However, I would have been baptised etc etc

    So, when I figured out how, I formally defected and included a cover letter explaining my reasons too.

    Got a fairly friendly reply from a parish priest in an area of Dublin that I haven't lived in since I was maybe 11. Wished me well and confirmed he'd amended the records.

    But, I'm very glad I did it. I honestly couldn't be associated with an organisation that participated in all of this stuff.


  • Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 19,219 Mod ✭✭✭✭Bannasidhe


    My call out to the legal eagles has produced some results.

    Just got this message from a barrister friend.
    I have written to the Attorney General reminding her of her obligations in International Law especially the European Convention on Human Rights and her obligations under the Constitution to vindicate the rights of citizens as well as her obligations under the common law. The letter includes a formal report of potential crimes and a reminder that even catholics objected to the murder of "socially undesirables" in Nazi Germany.


  • Registered Users Posts: 11,554 ✭✭✭✭aloyisious


    IMO, it's useless trying the pass-the-buck game on this. The children's remains and burial speak for themselves. The nuns are guilty of Unchristian acts in the way the children were treated alive and dead. Those in the employ of the state tasked with supervising the care of the children are equally guilty, as are those with knowledge of the lack of care given to the children unto and after death. If an inquiry is set up, get a list of all those living, working, employed in the home and convent and ask them for what they know of the children's care and deaths. Let then know in writing that no criminal charges will be taken against them and no state funds will be given for any legal counsel they employ. If any on the list choose NOT to assist in an inquiry, that fact should be publicized. They can then be shunned, or not shunned, by the public at choice.

    The RCC should dissolve the order the nuns belong to and expel the nuns involved in the home from the church. Those nuns should be shunned. The same should apply to any RCC clergy with knowledge of the children's care, deaths and burials. They deliberately broke any vow they made to their God, and Christ, by their treatment of the children. The evidence of unchristian behaviour is absolute, the bodies of the children did not get up and jump into the tank, they were placed and hidden there by the living like rubbish, nor even given a Christian burial, as that would have been a public acknowledgement of the children's existence and deaths.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 9,088 ✭✭✭SpaceTime


    aloyisious wrote: »
    IMO, it's useless trying the pass-the-buck game on this. The children's remains and burial speak for themselves. The nuns are guilty of Unchristian acts in the way the children were treated alive and dead. Those in the employ of the state tasked with supervising the care of the children are equally guilty, as are those with knowledge of the lack of care given to the children unto and after death. If an inquiry is set up, get a list of all those living, working, employed in the home and convent and ask them for what they know of the children's care and deaths. Let then know in writing that no criminal charges will be taken against them and no state funds will be given for any legal counsel they employ. If any on the list choose NOT to assist in an inquiry, that fact should be publicized. They can then be shunned, or not shunned, by the public at choice.

    The RCC should dissolve the order the nuns belong to and expel the nuns involved in the home from the church. Those nuns should be shunned. The same should apply to any RCC clergy with knowledge of the children's care, deaths and burials. They deliberately broke any vow they made to their God, and Christ, by their treatment of the children. The evidence of unchristian behaviour is absolute, the bodies of the children did not get up and jump into the tank, they were placed and hidden there by the living like rubbish, nor even given a Christian burial, as that would have been a public acknowledgement of the children's existence and deaths.

    I don't agree that anyone should be given immunity from prosecution!

    It should be investigated as a potential crime scene. Special treatment can't just continue like this.

    We are either all equal before the law, or the constitution isn't worth the paper it's written on.

    I'm not even sure the state is capable of carrying out an objective investigation though.


  • Moderators, Technology & Internet Moderators, Regional South East Moderators Posts: 28,467 Mod ✭✭✭✭Cabaal


    I think where individual priests (or nuns) refuse(d) baptism for a child,

    So individually priests all over the world decided to do this on their own steam and the Vatican didn't tell them not to for decades?...
    Right so,

    Yeah, seems legit


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  • Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 19,219 Mod ✭✭✭✭Bannasidhe


    According to new research, death rates at homes in Bessborough in Cork, Sean Ross Abbey in Tipperary, and Castlepollard in Westmeath ranged between 30% and 50% between 1930 and 1945....

    ...The data, based on preliminary research from the Adoption Rights Alliance found that the average death rate for children born in Sean Ross Abbey in 1932-37 and 1940-45 was 30.73% (846 births/260 deaths) and 30.72% (882 births/271 deaths), respectively.

    It also found that the average death rate for children born in Bessborough in 1941-45 was 43.45% (474 births/206 deaths).

    Concerns about the level of deaths in Bessborough were highlighted for the Department of Health in the 1950s by the chief medical officer, Dr James Deeny, who temporarily closed the home.

    “The deaths had been going on for years. They had done nothing about it, had accepted the situation, and were quite complacent about it,” wrote Dr Deeny in his book, To Cure and To Care — Memoirs of a Chief Medical Officer.
    http://www.irishexaminer.com/ireland/baby-homes-death-rate-up-to-50-271048.html

    Following early reports on the research of Tuam historian Catherine Corless, who brought the story to light, Liam Hogan, a Limerick-based historian and librarian, began uncovering a trail of damning news clips dating from before the Home’s founding in 1925 to after its closure in 1961.

    The articles show that the Home was very much a matter of both public and governmental knowledge. And the way in which they discuss the Home’s occupants (or “inmates” as they are more often referred to) makes clear the totally normalized disdain with which all the “illegitimate children” and “fallen women” were held.

    The Tuam Children’s Home, it turns out, is a scandal that emerged from an even earlier scandal – The Glenamaddy Children’s Home, less than 20 miles away.

    A June 1, 1924 article from the Connacht Tribune speaks of the ‘dire conditions’ at the Glenamaddy Home, a former workhouse that began housing orphans and unwed mothers in 1921, under the supervision of the Bon Secours nuns....


    ....An Irish Times account of the contract debate from September 12, 1928, states that at the time there were “118 children, of which 96 were illegitimate, and 30 unmarried mothers in the home.” In the same article, a letter from the Board of Health recommends that unmarried mothers who are “second offenders” should be “committed to a Magdalen asylum of similar institution for a term of years.”...


    ...Local people living near the Home signed a petition in 1937 calling for “the removal of the cesspool at the back of the Children’s Home, Tuam. . . . The petitioners’ letter stated that the smell from the cesspool was intolerable and highly dangerous to the health of a large number of residents and their families.”...


    ...An Irish Independent article from November 27, 1954 notes that six children from the Tuam home had been adopted by American families in the previous year and a half, and that the Home Assistance Department of the Galway County Council was “screening” fourteen further applications. The story also notes that “Full inquiries are made before an adoption is permitted and information is obtained through Church and State channels. Reports must be furnished regularly to the Council to show that the religious duties of the child are being attended to, that he or she is attending school, and that the circumstances of the couple who adopted the child have not altered.”...


    ...By 1961, the Home’s ‘fate was sealed,’ with the announcement that it would be closed in the near future. The article below notes that the occupants would be transferred to “similar centers at Castlepollard, Co. Westmeath; St. Patrick’s, Cabra, [Co Dublin] and Shanross Abbey, Roscrea, [Co Tipperary]” all now recognized as Magdalene institutions. The article seems especially concerned with the “loss” local businesses will feel after the Home closes, “the supply of food, clothing and other necessities [having] been a valuable trade.”
    http://www.irishcentral.com/news/The-Home-babies-in-the-news-A-timeline-of-neglect-in-plain-sight.html


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