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Household Charge Mega-Thread [Part 3] *Poll Reset*

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    #2
    Cantona's Collars
    Registered Users Posts: 33,709 ✭✭✭✭Cantona's Collars


    DON'T REGISTER, DON'T PAY!!


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    #3
    squod
    Closed Accounts Posts: 8,704 ✭✭✭squod


    Wohoo! Another poll. Still voting no. Still the vast majority of people I know have not paid. Still massive waste going on in local government. People still seeing this charge as a way of propping up the pension schemes of pen pushers in the PS.


    No Change


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    #4
    bgrizzley
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,641 ✭✭✭bgrizzley


    20,000 posts of utter sh1te, who would have thought it.
    And our teachers said we would never achieve anything...


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    #5
    Praetorian Saighdiuir
    Closed Accounts Posts: 10,968 ✭✭✭✭Praetorian Saighdiuir


    Still havent paid and have no intention to..........."Come at me Bro Council"!


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    #6
    Hijpo
    Registered Users Posts: 3,793 ✭✭✭Hijpo


    From the previous government. There's been no more bank recapitalisation since this one was elected.

    Apparently the banks were recapitalised enough when the government bought shares in BOI, PTSB and AIB.

    Did they use money that wasnt there?
    Did they have to take out a loan to do this?
    Are the irish people now having to pay back the loans the government took out?
    Are members of AIB now paying back the governments debts aswell as paying higher interest rates because a bank the government has shares in isnt profitable enough?


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    #7
    Ghandee
    Closed Accounts Posts: 6,653 ✭✭✭Ghandee


    Still waiting in an answer as to why FG lied to the nation about being obliged to pay unsecured bondholders.

    Who, like FF before them, are they protecting?


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    #8
    Cantona's Collars
    Registered Users Posts: 33,709 ✭✭✭✭Cantona's Collars


    @ am chile,here's the leaflet I got.

    http://tnypic.net/833c9.jpg

    http://tnypic.net/09785.jpg


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    #9
    Izzy Skint
    Closed Accounts Posts: 304 ✭✭Izzy Skint


    Ghandee wrote: »
    Still waiting in an answer as to why FG lied to the nation about being obliged to pay unsecured bondholders.

    Who, like FF before them, are they protecting?

    if some pro taxer does wish to answer Ghandee's question, could you also attempt to answer another one....why have FF / FG / Lab also lied to us about the IMF / Troika "insisting" on the introduction of a property tax...it was our own politicians who proposed this and offered it to the troika as a potential revenue raiser ?
    .....Ghandee, I doubt there will be any takers...I wonder why ? :)


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    #10
    Ghandee
    Closed Accounts Posts: 6,653 ✭✭✭Ghandee


    Izzy Skint wrote: »
    if some pro taxer does wish to answer Ghandee's question, could you also attempt to answer another one....why have FF / FG / Lab also lied to us about the IMF / Troika "insisting" on the introduction of a property tax...it was our own politicians who proposed this and offered it to the troika as a potential revenue raiser ?
    .....Ghandee, I doubt there will be any takers...I wonder why     ? :)

    Because it doesn't suit them to speak ill of their dear leader's. (ask any of them what that thought of hegarty and Reilly both appearing in Stubbs) they'll refuse to Condem their across and behaviour!

    They're quicker to jump on some trivial misconception or mistake such as a date or a percentage of something.


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    #11
    Am Chile
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,025 ✭✭✭Am Chile


    zerks wrote: »
    @ am chile,here's the leaflet I got.

    http://tnypic.net/833c9.jpg

    http://tnypic.net/09785.jpg

    Thanks for posting the leaflet-just looking at it I wouldn,t believe for a minute over 60% paid in Wexford-all the pictures on it,-I dount many people will fall for the oh think of the services argument on it.


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    #12
    dvpower
    Closed Accounts Posts: 9,183 ✭✭✭dvpower


    Izzy Skint wrote: »
    if some pro taxer does wish to answer Ghandee's question, could you also attempt to answer another one....why have FF / FG / Lab also lied to us about the IMF / Troika "insisting" on the introduction of a property tax...it was our own politicians who proposed this and offered it to the troika as a potential revenue raiser ?
    .....Ghandee, I doubt there will be any takers...I wonder why ? :)
    What's the evidence for this?


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    #13
    Chips Lovell
    Moderators, Politics Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 24,268 Mod ✭✭✭✭Chips Lovell


    Izzy Skint wrote: »
    if some pro taxer does wish to answer Ghandee's question, could you also attempt to answer another one....why have FF / FG / Lab also lied to us about the IMF / Troika "insisting" on the introduction of a property tax...it was our own politicians who proposed this and offered it to the troika as a potential revenue raiser ?

    It's actually in the memorandum of understanding:
    7. Ireland shall adopt the following measures during 2011, in line with specifications in the
    Memorandum of Understanding:

    (a) a 10 % pay reduction for new entrants to the public service. The Irish government
    shall also consider an appropriate adjustment, including in relation to the public
    service wage bill, to compensate for potential shortfalls from projected savings from
    administrative efficiencies and public service numbers reductions;

    (b) the adoption of a budget for 2012 including fiscal consolidation measures amounting
    to at least EUR 3,6 billion and aiming at a reduction of the general government
    deficit within the timeframe referred to in Article 3(3). The draft budget shall,
    in particular, include revenue measures to yield EUR 1,5 billion in a full year
    including, inter alia: a lowering of personal income tax bands and credits; a reduction
    in private pension tax relief; a reduction in general tax expenditure; a new property
    tax    ; a reform of capital gains tax and capital acquisitions tax; and, an increase in the
    carbon tax. The budget shall provide for a reduction of expenditure in 2012 of
    EUR 2,1 billion including social expenditure reductions; cuts in public sector
    employment; adjustments in public sector pensions and in other expenditure set out
    in the Programme; and reductions in capital expenditure;

    (c) the finalisation of an independent assessment of transfer of responsibility for water
    services provision from local authorities to a water utility, and preparation of
    proposals for implementation with a view to starting charging in 2012-2013;


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    #14
    Chips Lovell
    Moderators, Politics Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 24,268 Mod ✭✭✭✭Chips Lovell


    The property tax was also proposed by the independent Commission on Taxation, which issued its report long before the EU/IMF memorandum was signed.
    We consider that as a matter of general principle all property should be subject to recurrent
    taxation – either through the local government commercial rates system or an annual tax on
    residential property, which we are proposing. Such an annual property tax should form a key
    part of broadening the overall tax base. We consider that an annual property tax (APT) should
    be implemented at the earliest possible date, taking account of the very significant administrative
    challenge for the Revenue Commissioners who will have to develop an assessment, collection and
    accounting system.

    In this context it is appropriate to move away from an undue reliance on stamp duty – where the
    tax revenues are contingent on the level and value of property transactions. There are significant
    benefits to moving to a more stable tax base, which provides for a reliable revenue stream and a
    sustainable source of Exchequer funding.


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    #15
    Ghandee
    Closed Accounts Posts: 6,653 ✭✭✭Ghandee


    dvpower wrote: »
    What's the evidence for this?
    Vladimir Kurtains wrote: »
    It's actually in the memorandum of understanding:
    Vladimir Kurtains wrote: »
    The property tax was also proposed by the independent Commission on Taxation, which issued its report long before the EU/IMF memorandum was signed.


    Sigh....


    I'll ask again.




    Why did they lie to the Irish people when they told us they had to repay bondholders under orders from the troika?

    I feel like Vincent Browne here guys.


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    #16
    Ghandee
    Closed Accounts Posts: 6,653 ✭✭✭Ghandee


    @Vlad.


    That's not insisting.

    The troika have now told independents they ate open to discussion on any other means of raising revenue.

    The govt lied to us.

    They lied.


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    #17
    dvpower
    Closed Accounts Posts: 9,183 ✭✭✭dvpower


    Ghandee wrote: »
    Sigh....


    I'll ask again.




    Why did they lite to the Irish people when they told us they had to repay bondholders under orders from the troika?

    I feel like Vincent Browne here guys.
    wtf has the bondholder repayments got to do with the question of who insisted on a property tax? :confused:


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    #18
    dvpower
    Closed Accounts Posts: 9,183 ✭✭✭dvpower


    Ghandee wrote: »
    @Vlad.


    That's not insisting.

    The troika have now told independents they ate open to discussion on any other means of raising revenue.

    The govt lied to us.

    They lied.
    Exactly what lie are you talking about? And what is the evidence of the lie?

    btw, I don't have the document to hand, but the troika have said that they are open to negotiation on the property tax, but only on the basis of a qualitatively equivalent measure being proposed in its place - they go on to mention the good qualities of a property tax (like it being a stable and dependable revenue stream etc). So the idea that we could substitute it with an income tax or VAT increase isn't realistic.


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    #19
    ilovesleep
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,619 ✭✭✭ilovesleep


    What was in FG's manifesto in 2011.

    They were going to reduce the size of government. They were going to do this by reducing county counsils and counsellors.

    Well this is what's happening in Galway:

    http://www.galwaynews.ie/28364-major-change-electoral-areas-city-pipeline

    They are adding more counsillors.

    And this is the small piece over at the Galway forum:
    http://m.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?p=81322660#post81322660

    Phil Hogan is over this.


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    #20
    Chips Lovell
    Moderators, Politics Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 24,268 Mod ✭✭✭✭Chips Lovell


    So if I've got this straight, if we had a commitment to introduce a property tax in our agreement with the troika and the government told us about this agreement, because the troika now says that it would consider other similar measures, this means that we've been lied to all along? OK


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    #21
    Ghandee
    Closed Accounts Posts: 6,653 ✭✭✭Ghandee


    dvpower wrote: »
    wtf has the bondholder repayments got to do with the question of who insisted on a property tax? :confused:

    For Christs sakes DV man up and answer the question.

    You know well that the two things are related.

    HHC, brought in to close a deficit we're told, it'll raise 160,000,000 we're told.

    Property tax/hhc both introduced to help fund the bailout.

    This months 1 billion AIB payout to unsecured bondholders would have paid a hhc for over six years alone, never mind the rest of the bondholders being needlessly paid back.

    Had that single payout not have happened we could have delayed the hhc for six years maybe the country might have recovered enough by that time that it wouldn't be as hurtful to some already struggling home owners, or even better, it wouldn't be required at all!

    Surely a man who is so knowledgeable on all things govt related can see how there's some connectivity between our debt, bailout, bondholders and a property tax (introduced on the back of the bailout)

    If you can't, your either acting dumb, being obnoxious, or being a die hard blue shirt fan boy.

    Maybe now you'll answer me?

    Why did FG lie that they were instructed not to burn the bondholders by the troika?

    I would like an answer, if you have not got one, just say so.


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    #22
    dvpower
    Closed Accounts Posts: 9,183 ✭✭✭dvpower


    ilovesleep wrote: »
    What was in FG's manifesto in 2011.

    They were going to reduce the size of government. They were going to do this by reducing county counsils and counsellors.

    Well this is what's happening in Galway:

    http://www.galwaynews.ie/28364-major-change-electoral-areas-city-pipeline

    They are adding more counsillors.
    Perhaps you need to sleep less.

    http://www.rte.ie/news/2012/1016/phil-hogan-local-government-cabinet-politics.html
    The measures will reduce the number of councillors from over 1,600 to 950.


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    #23
    dvpower
    Closed Accounts Posts: 9,183 ✭✭✭dvpower


    Ghandee wrote: »
    For Christs sakes DV man up and answer the question.

    You know well that the two things are related.
    No. Please explain how the question of who insisted we repay bondholders is related to the question of who introduced the idea of a property tax to the troika.
    Ghandee wrote: »
    Maybe now you'll answer me?

    Why did FG lie that they were instructed not to burn the bondholders by the troika?

    I would like an answer, if you have not got one, just say so.
    You may be getting confused. I wasn't involved in that discussion with you at all.

    Anyway, I thought it was common knowledge that the ECB were insisting on bondholders being repaid - at least until Draghi took over. Is there someone saying that the ECB were never insisting on this?


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    #24
    Ghandee
    Closed Accounts Posts: 6,653 ✭✭✭Ghandee


    dvpower wrote: »
    No. Please explain how the question of who insisted we repay bondholders is related to the question of who introduced the idea of a property tax to the troika.


    You may be getting confused. I wasn't involved in that discussion with you at all.

    Anyway, I thought it was common knowledge that the ECB were insisting on bondholders being repaid - at least until Draghi took over. Is there someone saying that the ECB were never insisting on this?

    That's what we were told.

    The troika say the opposite though.

    http://www.stephendonnelly.ie/featured/so-i-met-the-troika-yesterday/


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    #25
    ilovesleep
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,619 ✭✭✭ilovesleep


    dvpower wrote: »
    Perhaps you need to sleep less.

    http://www.rte.ie/news/2012/1016/phil-hogan-local-government-cabinet-politics.html

    How will adding more reduce the numbers?


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    #26
    dvpower
    Closed Accounts Posts: 9,183 ✭✭✭dvpower


    Ghandee wrote: »
    That's what we were told.

    The troika say the opposite though.

    http://www.stephendonnelly.ie/featured/so-i-met-the-troika-yesterday/
    What charge exactly are you making against the current government (you may want to re-read what Donnelly actually wrote before answering)?


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    #27
    Izzy Skint
    Closed Accounts Posts: 304 ✭✭Izzy Skint


    Vladimir Kurtains wrote: »
    So if I've got this straight, if we had a commitment to introduce a property tax in our agreement with the troika and the government told us about this agreement, because the troika now says that it would consider other similar measures, this means that we've been lied to all along? OK

    I read it in the Evening Echo recently and I know what I read...unable to find a link........Ciaran Lynch, a labour td for Cork south central stated in a recent article that the property tax was proposed by FF in 2010...etc....and that we (FG / Lab) now have to enforce it.....

    our politicians proposed , negotiated and pushed hard for this with the IMF...less cuts for them to make elsewhere, especially in the public service pay and pension bill....they are lying to us ....true , the IMF / troika may want it introduced now, but it was our own politicians who planted the seed......

    ot....VLAD...is that an Eddie Irvine picture you use?


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    #28
    squod
    Closed Accounts Posts: 8,704 ✭✭✭squod


    For people who don't twit-ter


    ''Stephen Donnelly TD @DonnellyStephen
    @sendboyle Who knows. Troika told us yesterday that payment of unguaranteed snr BHs in pillar banks was at insistence of Gov.''


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    #29
    Am Chile
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,025 ✭✭✭Am Chile


    Anti property tax leaflets have being sent out by Willie O Dea in the Limerick constituency-these people in Fianna Fail must think Irish people have short memories.


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    #30
    Ghandee
    Closed Accounts Posts: 6,653 ✭✭✭Ghandee


    It doesn't matter which govt insisted DV, if it was FF decision, that decision should have been made null and void when a new govt was formed.

    They promised to burn bondholders before they got into govt, then u-turned when they got in.

    Meanwhile the troika tell us the opposite of what both govt's have said.

    You may want to watch this clip btw.



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    #31
    Izzy Skint
    Closed Accounts Posts: 304 ✭✭Izzy Skint


    f***ing lies...disgraceful....traitors....
    http://www.thejournal.ie/kenny-says-well-pay-our-dues-a-year-after-varadkar-said-not-another-cent-350805-Feb2012/
    more broken promises
    DX, DV, VLAD, ......comment please..


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