[ricero]

let it die

[kincsem]

If we each had a TG4 weather girl that would be an incentive to learn Irish.

[Ms.M]

Originally Posted by LordSutch

But surely if Irish is compulsory in school then the aim is to get everybody to speak Irish? Yes? Possibly in the same way as the Danes speak Danish, or the Norwegians speak Norwegian? And if its not the aim to get everybody speaking Irish en masse, then what is the aim of the Irish language lobby? and I ask this genuinely, and with the backdrop of mandatory Irish in school.

I know I should know better than argue a point I've already made and been ignored on.
(I'll agree with another poster, we DO NOT need another Irish language thread)
But, with respect the anti-Irish campaigners are worse culprits than me so.....

Irish is given equal status with English because of the Equal Status Act.
The Equal Status Act is based on the idea that a person born in the Gaeltacht, a person raised in an Irish-speaking family or any Irish-speaker is entitled to the same rights as an English-speaking Irish person. Included is a recognition that their culture is just as valid as English-speaking culture is.

It is based on a principle of equality. Not based on a belief that "Irish is as important as English to the majority of Irish people" or "Irish should be our first language."

Furthermore, the Irish language is not an abstract thing. You can't belittle it and pretend you are not belittling the people for whom it is their culture and not a "dead" thing. I'm sure there is a rule against making bigoted comments. Some of these posters should be banned.
(not talking about you Lord Sutch)


.... Just read the OP's post. In the spirit of equality I wouldn't agree with that "Kinda thing." How does a joke thread always descend into seriousness? Bah!

[Iwasfrozen]

Originally Posted by Ms.M

Furthermore, the Irish language is not an abstract thing. You can't belittle it and pretend you are not belittling the people for whom it is their culture and not a "dead" thing. I'm sure there is a rule against making bigoted comments. Some of these posters should be banned.
(not talking about you Lord Sutch)

Just on this bit there's no rules again attacking a persons beliefs or ideology as long as you don't attack the person. For example I can say "communism is stupid" (which it is but different thread) or "communists are stupid because they follow communism" but I can't say personally to a communist "you are stupid." That's the important difference here. Everyone is perfectly entitled to hold an opinion different to yours.

Now back on topic, Irish will never see a revival so if we could all stop wasting money during a huge recession chasing the pipe dream it would be nice.

[Ms.M]

Nope, you still ignored the point of my post.
It is a waste of money if you think "equality is stupid".
Fair enough. I can say "I think people who think equality is stupid are stupid".
This is fun.


Oh and by the way "I feckin hate ___________ (insert any language), sure why don't we all live in a cabin in the Wesht and go back to the Middle ages."
"I'm sick of listening to people who speak ____________ (insert any language) what with their stuck-up elitist ways and ill-taste in children's names."
"I also hate ___________ (insert any language) and I think we should kill it."

Put in French and you're saying I'm not making any bigoted statements about French people?

You are reducing identity to ideology I'm afraid. NOT THE SAME!

[Iwasfrozen]

Originally Posted by Ms.M

Nope, you still ignored the point of my post.
It is a waste of money if you think "equality is stupid".
Fair enough. I can say "I think people who think equality is stupid are stupid".
This is fun.

Are you serious? Do you really think this is an equality issue? There are no no monoglot irish speakers so the need for providing services through irish is rendered obsolete. Removing or not providing said redundent services is not discrimination, it's a strategic realignment of state resources during a period of austerity for the good of the people as a whole. Not a stubborn minority who are perfectly capable of communicating with the government through it's chosen language but refuse to do so and expect the majority to pay for this duplication of services that they demand. That's the mindset that you're proposing/defending.

Originally Posted by Ms.M

Oh and by the way "I feckin hate ___________ (insert any language), sure why don't we all live in a cabin in the Wesht and go back to the Middle ages."
"I'm sick of listening to people who speak ____________ (insert any language) what with their stuck-up elitist ways and ill-taste in children's names."
"I also hate ___________ (insert any language) and I think we should kill it."

Put in French and you're saying I'm not making any bigoted statements about French people?

You are reducing identity to ideology I'm afraid. NOT THE SAME!

Nice try but attacking a movement to have the government spend money on promoting the french language is not the same thing as attackng the french people.

Out of interest what do you think of David Mitchell's views on gaelic here? Because that's basically all we're saying in regards to irish.

[Wibbs]

Originally Posted by Ms.M

Put in French and you're saying I'm not making any bigoted statements about French people?

OK Take your French example. 99.splat per cent of French people are fully fluent in French. It's their first language, the language of everyday communication. Barring some mental incapacity a French person who wasn't fluent in French would be a very rare thing. It is a massive part of who they are. If you wanted to move to France you would require French. Simple as that. The languages name describes it's cultural importance in concrete terms. Irish does not. In concrete terms the language is a pretty small part of being Irish. Same word, not the same cultural and practical importance. Not by a long shot.

So on your point about bigoted statements, inserting French into your example, would be pretty daft, never mind bringing "bigoted" into it. It doesn't require anyone to go off to the wilds of the Dordogne to speak it. It's the language of the simple through to the sophisticated. Elitist draws a blank too. From the "proles" to the "bourgeois" they identify themselves in French. Killing French? Good luck with that.

Watching David Mitchell's piece, I wonder does the figure of 60,000 fluent speakers of Scot's Gaelic bear any scrutiny(I doubt it)? If it does, then Scots Gaelic is apparently in a healthier state than Irish.

Vested interests are usually worrying. With Irish, it's all too often those with a financial stake in the concept, then those with a political stake, then those with a cultural hobby stake, then those "Oirish" Gombeen men make an appearance. A gombeen man like E O'Cuiv would encapsulate most of that lot. It seems to be rare enough the native speakers are heard in the mix.

[GaryIrv93]

The language doesn't need to be revived - we're already speaking English and we're doing just fine keeping it that way. The amount of problems that would be faced trying to bring Irish up to where English is right now simply isin't worth it. A language is a language, and they don't exist for so called ''cultural heritage'' or ''honoring and respecting our ancestors'' or for any other mad reason. Languages exist for communication.

It'll be kept alive as long as there's people that have an interest and love for the language trying to keep it alive. What's killing it is it's forced compulsion in schools and it's teaching methods that just don't work, but it's kept like that anyway. With the way it's taught, and how it's compulsory, it's very unlikely that there'll be a big rise in everyday speakers.

[mrkiscool2]

Originally Posted by Ms.M

How does a joke thread always descend into seriousness? Bah!

Because, sometimes, there are people actually that stupid as to say something like what the op said! Simply as! Also, what if it isn't a joke thread? Then you'll be sorry!!

But no, in all seriousness, there is an easy solution to the problem raised (even if it was a joke post) Teach it better at Primary School, and make it non-compulsory at Leaving Cert! The problem is you go from learning simple verbs and phrases in primary school to doing poetry and serious essay's in Junior Cert and then plays poetry and serious essays in Leaving Cert! There is less of a workload in English at Leaving Cert than Higher-Level Irish!

[LordSutch]

That David Mitchell clip is brilliant, its not anti Scots gaelic, but it is respectful and realistic towards the language and the speaking of. Too often here in Ireland, defenders of the compulsory nature of the Irish language will jump on you straight away if you dare to make similar comments/ suggestions about it 'the Irish language' which I also think should be loved and cherished, but not force fed to all ages and in every Irish school.

The Irish language should be cherished and kept alive, but it should not be a mandatory subject foir all kids in all schools IMO. I also think the key to reviving Irish is to take out that compulsory teaching, which lets face it, just hasn't worked since it was introduced eight decades ago.

[Ms.M]

Originally Posted by Wibbs

OK Take your French example. 99.splat per cent of French people are fully fluent in French. It's their first language, the language of everyday communication. Barring some mental incapacity a French person who wasn't fluent in French would be a very rare thing. It is a massive part of who they are. If you wanted to move to France you would require French. Simple as that. The languages name describes it's cultural importance in concrete terms. Irish does not. In concrete terms the language is a pretty small part of being Irish. Same word, not the same cultural and practical importance. Not by a long shot.

Again, same argument Wibbs. Irish language is just as important to my identity as an Irish person as French is to a French person. It is the main part. Fine if you don't consider it part of yours. Culturally, we differ. I respect your culture. I don't share it. Why can't you respect mine?

You can't make the statement "the language is a pretty small part of being Irish." Just like I can't say "People who don't speak Irish are less Irish than me." There are very different ideas of what Irishness is. Making vast generalisations just proves my point about the arguments made in this foram.

So on your point about bigoted statements, inserting French into your example, would be pretty daft, never mind bringing "bigoted" into it. It doesn't require anyone to go off to the wilds of the Dordogne to speak it. It's the language of the simple through to the sophisticated. Elitist draws a blank too. From the "proles" to the "bourgeois" they identify themselves in French. Killing French? Good luck with that.


Watching David Mitchell's piece, I wonder does the figure of 60,000 fluent speakers of Scot's Gaelic bear any scrutiny(I doubt it)? If it does, then Scots Gaelic is apparently in a healthier state than Irish.

No, Scots Gaelic is not in a healthier state than Irish. Though I hope it makes a revival and believe it will.

Vested interests are usually worrying. With Irish, it's all too often those with a financial stake in the concept, then those with a political stake, then those with a cultural hobby stake, then those "Oirish" Gombeen men make an appearance. A gombeen man like E O'Cuiv would encapsulate most of that lot. It seems to be rare enough the native speakers are heard in the mix.

Ok so. Irish can be reduced to a "cultural hobby"apparently. Lovely. I detect no bigotry there. Sure we all hate "that lot." You're Irish, I'm Oirish, thank you for educating me. I guess you're just culturally superior to me. I think this is the jist of most of the arguments on this Wibbs so I don't mean to criticise you personally. You referred in another foram to growing up in Dublin and seeing Irish as being for culchies etc. I grew up in working class Dublin and my experience was similar. Your comments reflect an aspect of Irish culture that I do not like and don't buy into. My culture is just as valid as yours. Accept this or state "I believe my culture is more important than yours". Stop making pseudo-points.

E O'Cuiv is a native speaker.

[yawha]

Originally Posted by Ms.M

Irish is given equal status with English because of the Equal Status Act.
The Equal Status Act is based on the idea that a person born in the Gaeltacht, a person raised in an Irish-speaking family or any Irish-speaker is entitled to the same rights as an English-speaking Irish person. Included is a recognition that their culture is just as valid as English-speaking culture is.

What about people who speak French or German or Polish? Why aren't those languages considered equal?

[Ms.M]

Originally Posted by Iwasfrozen

Are you serious? Do you really think this is an equality issue? There are no no monoglot irish speakers so the need for providing services through irish is rendered obsolete. Removing or not providing said redundent services is not discrimination, it's a strategic realignment of state resources during a period of austerity for the good of the people as a whole. Not a stubborn minority who are perfectly capable of communicating with the government through it's chosen language but refuse to do so and expect the majority to pay for this duplication of services that they demand. That's the mindset that you're proposing/defending.


Nice try but attacking a movement to have the government spend money on promoting the french language is not the same thing as attackng the french people.


Out of interest what do you think of David Mitchell's views on gaelic here? Because that's basically all we're saying in regards to irish.

Yes I most definitely think it is an equality issue. There are plenty of Irish speakers who are less able to communicate in English. Especially in regards to low frequency words. You may be overestimating the cost of duplicating documents. The documents that are duplicated would be sent to Gaeltacht homes in English but are instead sent in Irish. People's imagination's have got the better of them in this case. It's not very expensive. The amount spent on English "monoglots" far outweights that spent on Irish-speakers even when you take into account the lesser percentage of Irish-speakers. So Irish-speakers pay OVER their fair share for documents produced in English; why shouldn't they be allowed documents in Irish?

And with respect, I don't think your comments are bigoted. (I'm not going to re-read all your posts though!) Some of the arguments made are certainly offensive. I didn't say yours were.

[aaronjumper]

Prisons are already struggling, now you want to throw the large number of people that would fail your test in with the thieves murderers and rapists?

Sense. Your post makes none.

That said I would like to be able to insult people I am sitting or standing near without them knowing.

[Interest in History]

Originally Posted by conor.hogan.2

...What Irish language lobby? We do not meet on wednesdays in cú na irishnagon....

Irish is maintained through state action because the elected officials sense that it is part of their patriotic accreditation for being members of the Dail or Senate. This is in synch with the fact that within living memory a quarter of the members have been from the educational scene: teachers & lecturers who also have a professional affinity with learning and teaching Irish. The political imagery of Irish Revival = Patriotic Genuine True Irish Person is very strong and those piblic bods don't want to risk giving it up.

Given that the motivation of the public patriots does not apply to most people (at least after they grow up) the state actors have to maintain Irish with compulsion in school, compulsory public displays by state institutions, subvention of minority television etc., and financial support of a large number of language promoting organisations.

Shinawill. That's the make up of the Irish Revival lobby.