Introduce Non-resident Irish tax base

MadsL · 08-01-2012 6:12pm #1

As generation emigration is back, is it time to introduce a tax base to ensure emigrant workers contribute to Irish recovery?

My wife was an emigrant US citizen, now Irish naturalised citizen who continued to file for US taxes during the last ten years as she had some US income and was working in Ireland for which the US IRS wants to know about. Irish emigrants however pay no domestic portion of tax, nor are assessed for foreign income.

Is it time to introduce a small 'contribution tax' on foreign income earned outside the EU?

RichardAnd · 08-01-2012 6:34pm

No tax without representation. If ever emigrants were charged even a minor tax, they would have to be given full rights to vote in Irish elections an referendums over seas. I believe the US grants this right to its citizens and to attempt to levy tax without such a facility would be wrong.

That being said, I don't think Irish citizens should have to pay tax to the Irish state if they don't reside here. They would already be paying taxes in their adopted country so why should they be burdened with the price of services they can not even use? Perhaps a voluntary system could be set up that would allow an expatriate to vote in exchange for a very minor tax could work but I doubt many would avail of it.

In either case, the logistics would probably be quite complex.

n900guy · 08-01-2012 7:09pm

How about starting with allowing expatriates to vote like every other civilised country first and treat adult working citizens with respect, instead of trying to keep grabbing cash not just from the dwindling population of workers in Ireland but also those who chose or needed to emigrate.

The US treats it citizens as income generation units, and is the last place we should be emulating.

juan.kerr · 08-01-2012 7:17pm

Think how many generations we could go back - we could get millions of US citizens into the Irish tax system in one fell swoop.

Maybe tax the emigrants as they leave, like the Germans did in the late 30's.

And what about taxing dead people as well? We could probably dig them up and search the coffins it they refuse to pay.

Mother of God.

Manach · 08-01-2012 7:23pm

juan.kerr wrote: »

And what about taxing dead people as well? We could probably dig them up and search the coffins it they refuse to pay.

Funny you should mention that, as Spanish civil authorities in a bid to raise revenue are shortening the leases/increasing the levy on graves in certain cities.

ardmacha · 08-01-2012 7:24pm

Given the litany of excuses in the property tax thread, many people are unwilling to contribute to where they live, never mind where they don't live.

fat__tony · 08-01-2012 7:26pm

Im an Irish citizen. I consider myself to be a resident of Canada, Im on a 3 yr work permit here with a view to become a permanent resident within the next 18 months.

I work full time, I pay provincial and federal taxes as well as availing of the various public services. I don't live in Ireland,work in Ireland or avail of any of the services in Ireland. The only connection I have with the country is my family.

Why on earth should I have to pay a cent of tax to the Irish government OP?

If you're refering to ex-pats earning tax free salaries in the middle east then perhaps there is a good case to be argued but for someone like me? Absolutely ridiculous.

ArmaniJeanss · 08-01-2012 8:04pm

fat__tony wrote: »

Im an Irish citizen. I consider myself to be a resident of Canada, Im on a 3 yr work permit here with a view to become a permanent resident within the next 18 months.

I work full time, I pay provincial and federal taxes as well as availing of the various public services. I don't live in Ireland,work in Ireland or avail of any of the services in Ireland. The only connection I have with the country is my family.

Why on earth should I have to pay a cent of tax to the Irish government OP?

Well, the (very thin) logic would be that you still continue to receive the benefts of being an Irish citizen; the passport, not needing a Visa to visit certain countries, use of consular facilities, the ability to come back here any time and be able to legally work straight away.

So therefore you should continue to pay some nominal tax to us, or else you should rescind the benefits you are getting.

fat__tony · 08-01-2012 8:14pm

ArmaniJeanss wrote: »

Well, the (very thin) logic would be that you still continue to receive the benefts of being an Irish citizen; the passport, not needing a Visa to visit certain countries, use of consular facilities, the ability to come back here any time and be able to legally work straight away.

So therefore you should continue to pay some nominal tax to us, or else you should rescind the benefits you are getting.

That really is stretching it to be honest but if it ever came to that then Id give up my passport and citzenship, (once I've obtained canadian citizenship of course). I have zero interest in returning to Ireland to work again, period.

I doubt if it will ever come to pass though. I think it's a ridiculous suggestion.

n900guy · 08-01-2012 8:20pm

ArmaniJeanss wrote: »

Well, the (very thin) logic would be that you still continue to receive the benefts of being an Irish citizen; the passport, not needing a Visa to visit certain countries, use of consular facilities, the ability to come back here any time and be able to legally work straight away.

So therefore you should continue to pay some nominal tax to us, or else you should rescind the benefits you are getting.

You pay directly for the passport. There is a fee, you had over money, and bingo, your replaced/renewed Irish citizen passport. That is the free required to have a passport and avail of consular services and come back and work as you like (EU law).

What you want is people to supplement the €80 for passport and consular services (but no votigng) with another ~€10,000 a year to support a welfare class of rent supplement receiving jobless getting hundreds of euros a month for nothing.

Tell me what extra amount of services will be granted for upping the price of a passport from €80 to €10,000 plus per year?

MadsL · 08-01-2012 9:09pm

€10,000 plus per year?

Who suggested this figure?

Question: I am a U.S. citizen. If I leave the U.S. for good and start working abroad and pay the local taxes, do I still need to file my US tax return even if I don’t have US income? What happens if I don't?
Answer. A U.S. citizen or resident, you must file the U.S. tax return if you meet the filing requirements. You must report your world-wide income (even the income on which you paid the taxes in the foreign country). This applies to earned income (such as wages and tips and self employment income) and unearned income (such as interest, dividends, capital gains, pensions, rents, and royalties).

On your U.S. tax return, you will get your usual standard deduction and exemption deductions depending upon your filing status. Also, the U.S. has tax treaty with most of the countries, which means that on the income in other countries, you will get credit for the taxes paid in other countries.

This effectively means that if you work in a low-tax or zero-tax regime, you will be contributing more - the Middle-East scenario above. I can envisage a modest tax base on emigrant workers as a contribution towards the pension, health and other state benefits that they might receive on return to Ireland.

I would suggest that a high level of income be achieved before such a tax kicks in.

I find it odd that U2 are dispised for moving taxshelters, yet this suggestion of taxation sources from overseas is not more widely banded about.

I also fully agree that a postal vote system should be initiated for emigrees who wish to vote. The quote is "Taxation without representation is tyranny" just to be pedantic to the poster above..

As an expatriate myself, I do see the irony that I can return to the UK, not having paid a penny in tax since 1993, and yet still avail of healthcare services.

I also not the absurd discrepancy that a foreign-born national (likely resident and paying tax in Ireland for five years) applying for citizenship is charged 1125 euro, whereas by the 'granny rule' a passport application can be made by someone who has not contributed a cent to the State for the standard passport fee. They can then travel and avail of pension, healthcare and other state benefits. Seem very inequitable to me.

n900guy · 08-01-2012 9:48pm

MadsL wrote: »

Who suggested this figure?

I find it odd that U2 are dispised for moving taxshelters, yet this suggestion of taxation sources from overseas is not more widely banded about.

Why is moving the location of a company called a taxshelter? The company is no longer based in Ireland - it pays taxes elsewhere, right? Calling it a taxshelter when you really mean "paying tax at a different level as it is registered in a different country".

As an expatriate myself, I do see the irony that I can return to the UK, not having paid a penny in tax since 1993, and yet still avail of healthcare services.

You will be paying NI as soon as you return to work in the UK and thus entirely within reasonable grounds to get healthcare if you are now resident and paying NI in the UK. If you turn up in Netherlands, you will be paying health insurance here and also able to get healthcare from the start - because *you are now paying for it*.

MadsL · 08-01-2012 9:58pm

n900guy wrote: »

You will be paying NI as soon as you return to work in the UK and thus entirely within reasonable grounds to get healthcare if you are now resident and paying NI in the UK. If you turn up in Netherlands, you will be paying health insurance here and also able to get healthcare from the start - because *you are now paying for it*.

Not if I retire back to the UK to take advantage of the healthcare regime.....

ArphaRima · 09-01-2012 8:06am

As an expat I find this suggestion offensive. In fact I heard that the Americans had to pay and I was offended on their behalf.

I know one American is rescinding his US citizenship over it.

contribution tax

WTF is that?? Do you mean charity tax?! Ireland is f*cked through no fault of mine. I made the decision to emigrate as I thought my career prospects were better elsewhere. Ireland is behind me.

Irish citizenship does not hold the same sway as US citizenship. If I get persecuted unfairly abroad, tough. If an American does, expect an aircraft carrier and a SEAL team to be parked off the coast of the offending nation.

Now if Ireland were to offer me the chance to pay PRSI in return for the safety of social services to fall back on; there's something.

09-01-2012 9:26am

Lets get this US tax filing while abroad straight.
If your living abroad and earned money abroad you are excluded.
If your working abroad but residing some of the time in the US you get taxed only on pay above 92,000 US Dollars.

http://www.irs.gov/businesses/small/international/article/0,,id=96822,00.html

Its really aimed at oil workers working for US multinationals in the Gulf doing 6 and 9 month stints.

I`m in Australia, working in mining and I bet the filthy politicians would love to get their hands on my hard earned cash. Alot of the Irish here are pissed at what went on at home like everyone else. Not only did alot of them lose their jobs but they had to emigrate to earn a living.

There is a definite line between the working holiday visa teens and early 20s and those 30+ who have a trade, experience, sponsorship or 4 yr business visas. I do believe alot would these people wouldnt be filing tax reports for Ireland and if necessary not renewing the passport. Returning home for Christmas doesnt require an Irish passport.

09-01-2012 9:33am

ardmacha wrote: »

Given the litany of excuses in the property tax thread, many people are unwilling to contribute to where they live, never mind where they don't live.

no they dont want to pay for the bloody banks or the crooked politicians
or pay for an overpaid public sector or an overinflated welfare state

mandrake04 · 09-01-2012 9:35am

Deleted User wrote: »

Lets get this US tax filing while abroad straight.
If your living abroad and earned money abroad you are excluded.
If your working abroad but residing some of the time in the US you get taxed only on pay above 92,000 US Dollars.

http://www.irs.gov/businesses/small/international/article/0,,id=96822,00.html

Its really aimed at oil workers working for US multinationals in the Gulf doing 6 and 9 month stints.

I`m in Australia, working in mining and I bet the filthy politicians would love to get their hands on my hard earned cash. Alot of the Irish here are pissed at what went on at home like everyone else. Not only did alot of them lose their jobs but they had to emigrate to earn a living.

There is a definite line between the working holiday visa teens and early 20s and those 30+ who have a trade, experience, sponsorship or 4 yr business visas. I do believe alot would these people wouldnt be filing tax reports for Ireland and if necessary not renewing the passport. Returning home for Christmas doesnt require an Irish passport.

Fucking oath why would I pay tax so the Irish government can hand it out as benefits to some immigrant.

ARGINITE · 09-01-2012 9:43am

I pay enough tax as it is in the UK, if I had any more out goings I might as well move home and go on the dole!

Head The Wall · 09-01-2012 9:53am

ArmaniJeanss wrote: »

Well, the (very thin) logic would be that you still continue to receive the benefts of being an Irish citizen; the passport, not needing a Visa to visit certain countries, use of consular facilities, the ability to come back here any time and be able to legally work straight away.

So therefore you should continue to pay some nominal tax to us, or else you should rescind the benefits you are getting.

Thats some rubbish, every human has to be born somewhere and it's not your choice (it's your parents) so you are naturally a citizen of some country. How that country runs itself and what services it offers it's citizens is a completely different discussion.

maninasia · 09-01-2012 10:25am

Give me the vote, then come back and talk to me!

srsly78 · 09-01-2012 10:38am

MadsL wrote: »

As generation emigration is back, is it time to introduce a tax base to ensure emigrant workers contribute to Irish recovery?

My wife was an emigrant US citizen, now Irish naturalised citizen who continued to file for US taxes during the last ten years as she had some US income and was working in Ireland for which the US IRS wants to know about. Irish emigrants however pay no domestic portion of tax, nor are assessed for foreign income.

Is it time to introduce a small 'contribution tax' on foreign income earned outside the EU?

Yes the americans have a crazy system where their government makes them file tax returns every year even if they emigrate. This is why wealthy americans (and other nationalities) renounce their citizenship and register with the Cayman Islands or Grenada / other place where you can buy a passport (helps if it's in the commonwealth too for travel purposes).

So the end result is: your tax will not hit the people you want it to hit.

maninasia · 09-01-2012 10:55am

They also instituted this rule as they are a nation of immigrants, if you want to apply for citizenship you have to contribute if you are a high earner even if you are living in your native country.

Joe 90 · 09-01-2012 11:55am

In fact the idea of no taxation without representation is ass about face. It should be no representation without taxation. Only nett tax payers should be able to vote. That would sort out a lot of things.

ArphaRima · 09-01-2012 11:57am

Only nett? tax payers should be able to vote

That is already the case. I was removed from the Voting Register around 2 months ago.
So. No taxation without representation it is.

sarumite · 09-01-2012 12:19pm

Joe 90 wrote: »

In fact the idea of no taxation without representation is ass about face. It should be no representation without taxation. Only nett tax payers should be able to vote. That would sort out a lot of things.

So no voting for Students, homemakers (I believe that is the 21st century PC term), those unemployed but genuinely looking for employment?

syklops · 09-01-2012 12:37pm

An emmigrant tax is really a stupid idea and completely unworkable.

With the current economic climate most potential emmigrants face one of two things, leave the country for work, or stay in the country on the dole. Imposing such a tax would make the decision even more money oriented - stay and get dole, leave and have to pay. Effectively paying for the people who choose to stay at home. Not happening amigo.

Manach · 09-01-2012 12:39pm

Given how poorly the government has spent tax money that has lead to this current economic situation - some improved form of oversight is needed. Who better to do that than the revenue generators from where the tax is generated.

On topic - If taxed, then they overseas Irish should have electoral representation.

LostinKildare · 09-01-2012 12:42pm

Deleted User wrote: »

Lets get this US tax filing while abroad straight.
If your living abroad and earned money abroad you are excluded.
If your working abroad but residing some of the time in the US you get taxed only on pay above 92,000 US Dollars.

http://www.irs.gov/businesses/small/international/article/0,,id=96822,00.html

Its really aimed at oil workers working for US multinationals in the Gulf doing 6 and 9 month stints.

I don't wish to draw this thread off-topic, but this is incorrect-- you've misread the IRS link, which is no surprise because the issue is very complicated.

If you are a US citizen living abroad all year (defined as 330 days+ in a consecutive 12-month period) then no you are not wholly excluded. But you do have the option of taking the Foreign Earned Income Exclusion, which excludes the first $92,900 (2011 limit) of income from taxes. You still have to pay tax on any balance above that limit, and if any of the income is from self-employment, you have to pay self-employment tax on that (Medicare, Social Security). But you may be able to offset any tax owed by taxes you've paid in your (foreign) locality if there is a tax treaty in place.

If you do not live abroad full-time then you are not eligible for that $92,900 exclusion, and things get more complicated.

It's also worth pointing out that even if you owe no tax in a year, you still are required to file a tax return.

who the fug · 09-01-2012 12:46pm

Love if they brought this in, and see what idiot would be landed with calling me.

It would be deadly fun altogether

who the fug · 09-01-2012 12:47pm

Also OP

Your effing mess, you pay for it

Joe 90 · 09-01-2012 12:48pm

sarumite wrote: »

So no voting for Students, homemakers (I believe that is the 21st century PC term), those unemployed but genuinely looking for employment?

Don't forget PS employees and politicians.

Introduce Non-resident Irish tax base

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