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    #62
    RichardAnd
    Registered Users Posts: 3,629 ✭✭✭RichardAnd


    SafeSurfer wrote: »
    Your taxes have already bailed out the banks who are at least as culpable as those they lent money to.



    Might you be implying that because of the bank bail out, a bail out of the plebs would be all right?


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    #63
    skregs
    Registered Users Posts: 746 ✭✭✭skregs


    Example 1:
    Topped up the mortgage on her massive house to buy a BMW Z4 and a 52" TV. She thought she was great at the time, now complains about how her financial difficulties are someone else's fault.

    Example 2:
    Managed to get a mortgage for a near-seven figure house despite having a mediocre job. Spent a ridiculous amount of money on furniture etc, inc. a bath he paid €8,000 for!
    He's now in major financial trouble and blames the government for destroying the property market.
    I remember him telling me that he was a millionaire because he had over a million Euro worth of assets, and got pissed off when I told him he wasn't because he owed the bank over a million Euro.

    Example 3:
    Bought three extra houses and was renting them out, making more from rent than he spent on mortgage repayments. Two of the houses are empty, one has a much lower rent on it now but he still owes the bank the same amount of money each month.


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    #64
    Nody
    Moderators, Category Moderators, Arts Moderators, Business & Finance Moderators, Entertainment Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 18,260 CMod ✭✭✭✭Nody


    RichardAnd wrote: »
    Might you be implying that because of the bank bail out, a bail out of the plebs would be all right?
    What are a couple of billion among us tax payers for the people who were forced by gun point to take out a loan for a seriously overpriced property?


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    #65
    RichardAnd
    Registered Users Posts: 3,629 ✭✭✭RichardAnd


    Nody wrote: »
    What are a couple of billion among us tax payers for the people who were forced by gun point to take out a loan for a seriously overpriced property?


    What? No one was forced to take out a loan for anything. You cant' seriously believe otherwise, can you?


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    #66
    Nody
    Moderators, Category Moderators, Arts Moderators, Business & Finance Moderators, Entertainment Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 18,260 CMod ✭✭✭✭Nody


    RichardAnd wrote: »
    What? No one was forced to take out a loan for anything. You cant' seriously believe otherwise, can you?
    I thought the sarcasm was obvious but if you read enough posts here that is pretty much the theme coming over from the "Debt forgiveness because someone bought a overpriced house and can't pay it" brigade (people "had" to buy a house, "it was not their fault", "The bank is guilty as well", "they will not have any were to live now", "the banks got rescued, why not a normal Joe?" etc. etc.).


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    #67
    RichardAnd
    Registered Users Posts: 3,629 ✭✭✭RichardAnd


    Nody wrote: »
    I thought the sarcasm was obvious but if you read enough posts here that is pretty much the theme coming over from the "Debt forgiveness because someone bought a overpriced house and can't pay it" brigade (people "had" to buy a house, "it was not their fault", "The bank is guilty as well", "they will not have any were to live now", "the banks got rescued, why not a normal Joe?" etc. etc.).


    Sorry man, sarcasm doesn't come across well without intonation :).


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    #68
    Andrew33
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,857 ✭✭✭Andrew33


    coolbeans wrote: »
    I know a guy who got a mortgage and topped it up to add a 5 series to his crass looking suburban dump in the middle of the countryside. ****ing idiot! No economic sense, no common sense and no taste, just wanton materialism run amok. Save us!

    Does not compute, does not compute, conflict, conflict.


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    #69
    DublinWriter
    Registered Users Posts: 9,555 ✭✭✭DublinWriter


    I'm with the OP on this.

    From my own circle of about 5-10 friends/neighbours and the 30-40 people I work directly with, I can't find anyone of who went hog-wild during the 'good' years.

    Any of them who bought property during this period (myself included) did so because we had growing families; I don't recall anyone I know of buying property for speculative reasons.

    In fact, the only ones I know of who spent recklessly where the young, mainly on weekends out, coke, leaving-cert holidays, clothes, etc. Ok, this was probably the fault of the 'rents, but you get the picture.

    This being Ireland, the usual chorus of begrudgery is in full voice, typically consisting of those who didn't even leave the family home.


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    #70
    tsoparno
    Registered Users Posts: 462 ✭✭tsoparno


    RichardAnd wrote: »
    Might you be implying that because of the bank bail out, a bail out of the plebs would be all right?

    i kind of think that because the banks(the biggest plebs)have been bailed out yes something has to be done for the ordinary person.
    the banks should not have been bailed out,we could be like iceland and well on the road to recovery at this stage if we had left em burn.
    BTW i dont think the plebs who borrowed and spent lavishly should be helped just the people in trouble with the family home.


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    #71
    hmmm
    Registered Users Posts: 11,205 ✭✭✭✭hmmm


    DublinWriter wrote: »
    I'm with the OP on this.

    From my own circle of about 5-10 friends/neighbours and the 30-40 people I work directly with, I can't find anyone of who went hog-wild during the 'good' years.

    Any of them who bought property during this period (myself included) did so because we had growing families; I don't recall anyone I know of buying property for speculative reasons.

    That's odd, let me remind you of what you were saying on boards in 2006:
    http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=2054939120
    In 25 years time I'll own my own house and probably be a million or two richer by then thanks to it.

    After 25 years of renting you'll have what exactly?
    I'd rather put my money in an appreicating asset than pay someone else's mortgage, thanks very much.

    Oh but there might be a crash, slump, etc etc...

    Listen, draw a graph of average house cost over time from say the 1950's onwards. That line is only ever going to go one direction - up. Sure there might be a slump, a blip, a readjustment, but the line will only dust itself off and continue it's upward trend.
    I bought a 100 Sq. Metre 4 bed-semi D in a small town just outside Asbourne 2 years ago fof €235K. Had it valued recently at €350K.
    Probably not, because if you did you'd realise that those who managed to weather that storm are now sitting on some seriously valuable property.

    Crash or no crash, anything you buy now will be worth seriously more in 25/30 years time.

    Bottom line: you never lose money on bricks and mortar in the long run
    Wrong. Worse case scenario is that property prices just *match* inflation.

    Go look at property prices 25/30 years ago and see what you could have won.

    Go find me an equity that would have matched that growth and I'll get you a Blue Peter badge.
    Yes, but after 25 years of renting you have what exactly?
    And compare what you'd own after 30 years - a house, probably worth 2 million Eurodollars in 2036 currency versus owning well, zip, basically.

    And this is my favourite considering the circumstances

    Personally, I rather be paying my own mortgage than someone elses.


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    #72
    kelle
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,243 ✭✭✭kelle


    hmmm wrote: »
    That's odd, let me remind you of what you were saying on boards in 2006:
    http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=2054939120

    And this is my favourite considering the circumstances


    This poster from that same thread was spot on!


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    #73
    hmmm
    Registered Users Posts: 11,205 ✭✭✭✭hmmm


    kelle wrote: »
    This poster from that same thread was spot on!
    As was this one I'd say ;)
    http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=51468630&postcount=29


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    #74
    kelle
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,243 ✭✭✭kelle


    hmmm wrote: »
    As was this one I'd say ;)
    http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=51468630&postcount=29

    I was going through the posts and started noticing yours! Well done, pity many didn't follow your advice!

    So, please tell me, what do you think one should do with their savings?


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    #75
    tsoparno
    Registered Users Posts: 462 ✭✭tsoparno


    a mate bought house bout five or six year ago.
    top up to do up the house
    another top up to pay of the car
    another top up to get married and honeymoon
    we've never talked about exact figure's but from my calculations they must be in negative equity of about 100k.
    they had it all when they wanted it while i'm still chipping away at some jobs in the house over the same time wouldnt swap with although they have the house in the modern estate and i have the one built in the fifty's


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    #76
    DublinWriter
    Registered Users Posts: 9,555 ✭✭✭DublinWriter


    hmmm wrote: »
    That's odd, let me remind you of what you were saying on boards in 2006:
    http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=2054939120

    I still stand by all those statements.

    When my mortgage will be paid in 2021 I will have an asset to pass on to my children that will be worth significantly more than I paid for it.

    Ooohh but what about the interest? I was smart enough to get an offset mortgage so I'm backing up my outstanding balance with assets meaning that my mortgage is effectively interest free.

    As I said, I'd rather pay my own mortgage than someone else's.

    I couldn't imagine anything grimmer than still house rent-sharing at 65.


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    #77
    hmmm
    Registered Users Posts: 11,205 ✭✭✭✭hmmm


    DublinWriter wrote: »
    When my mortgage will be paid in 2021 I will have an asset to pass on to my children that will be worth significantly more than I paid for it.
    Will you "be a million or two richer by then thanks to it"?


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    #78
    DublinWriter
    Registered Users Posts: 9,555 ✭✭✭DublinWriter


    hmmm wrote: »
    Will you "be a million or two richer by then thanks to it"?
    Well, let's look a history shall we?

    My parents bought their house in 1974 for €3K. I sold it for €280K in 2007.

    You do the maths.

    Of course the same middle-eastern instability and oil-crises of the mid-70's that led to hyperinflation could never happen again!


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    #79
    hmmm
    Registered Users Posts: 11,205 ✭✭✭✭hmmm


    DublinWriter wrote: »
    Well, let's look a history shall we?

    My parents bought their house in 1974 for €3K. I sold it for €280K in 2007.

    You do the maths.
    And that's a good example as to how, after everything that has happened and blaming the banks and regulator and Europe and so on, some Irish people will still recreate the property pyramid scheme if given half a chance.

    And they will look for a bailout from the rest of us when it goes wrong again.


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    #80
    murphaph
    Registered Users Posts: 19,018 ✭✭✭✭murphaph


    DublinWriter wrote: »
    Ooohh but what about the interest? I was smart enough to get an offset mortgage so I'm backing up my outstanding balance with assets meaning that my mortgage is effectively interest free.
    You don't understand how your own mortgage works. Claiming you are borrowing money effectively for nothing is way out there with the fruitier claims I've seen on boards. That money that you leave on deposit to offset the mortgage principal is sitting in a low interest savings account, when it could be earning you lots more interest somewhere else. You are losing the benefit that your assets could provide to you if invested somewhere else with a higher return.

    The financial institution you borrowed off has to pay interest on the money they lent you. Do you really think they would lend you money for nothing while paying someone else for it? :rolleyes:

    Btw, you claimed in that 2006 thread that no equity will outperform bricks and mortar but this (at least historically) has been proven incorrect. Over time, the stock market as a whole has outperformed every other investment vehicle since the 1929 crash. A balanced portfolio will offer you more chance of greater return than property.

    You made many references to "paying other peoples' mortgages" while renting. If your rent is less than the amount you'd pay in mortgage interest over the life of the loan then renting makes more financial sense for that period. It's simple maths. If we are to talk about security of tenure etc. then that is a different matter, but the broad statement that "rent is dead money" is factually simply incorrect.


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    #81
    Head The Wall
    Registered Users Posts: 2,892 ✭✭✭Head The Wall


    DublinWriter wrote: »

    I couldn't imagine anything grimmer than still house rent-sharing at 65.

    Doesn't say much for your imagination if you think people renting a house at 65 are sharing :rolleyes:

    Yes you may have sold at a good price in 2007 but you also bought at a high price and offsetting or not if you had god forbid rented for a few years and bought now or in the next two to three years you could have actually saved a packet more.

    Look at it this way, what you pay now has nothing to do with its value in 2021 so obviously the less you pay now the better overall. If you have to convince yourself otherwise well then .........


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    #82
    wolfpawnat
    Registered Users Posts: 6,124 ✭✭✭wolfpawnat


    I knew a couple, she was on mat leave from her 3 day a week corner shop job, and he was told he would be redundant by xmas (this was about August) and they got a mortgage, almost 100%, the added another 50,000 last year, got a 2,500 tattoo, sky multi-room full package, sports and all, kitted a gym, got wooden floors put in. And he went back again to get a top up to get a better car and he was insulted and abashed when they declined his request. His mortgage was first extended to 60 years, and now it is interest only and he still lives as he did when he was working.

    My uncle finished his mortgage on his semi-detached house in the height of the boom by doubling his repayments, and now as a pensioner he is enjoying the fact that any spare money he has goes on doing up HIS house. No one can take it from him!


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    #83
    Water14
    Closed Accounts Posts: 30 ✭Water14


    A friend of mine bought 4 houses. Only rented 2 of them out. Didn't even check the the estate before buying. Complained on radio when the bank went to reposess them. Now expects everyone else to bail him out.

    Another friend is livid about this. He sold his house to pay his debts and now works 2 jobs to pay off the remainder. He has never been on a holiday that cost over 100euro.
    How can people like this be expected to pay for the above type of selfishness?


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    #84
    Dannyboy83
    Registered Users Posts: 4,236 ✭✭✭Dannyboy83


    Yes - me.

    2008, I was offered a €300k mortgage. I refused for obvious reasons.

    2010 - September, AIB refused me a €180k mortgage, on a significantly improved personal financial situation over 2008.

    2011 - August, AIB refused me a €150k mortgage, on a massively improved personal financial situation over 2008.


    Now who's the mug?
    I and many like me will shortly be paying for the reckless, while we are punished for our own caution.


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    #85
    jank
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 13,018 ✭✭✭✭jank


    hmmm wrote: »
    And that's a good example as to how, after everything that has happened and blaming the banks and regulator and Europe and so on, some Irish people will still recreate the property pyramid scheme if given half a chance.

    And they will look for a bailout from the rest of us when it goes wrong again.

    + 1 Million!

    Some people are either too foolish or ignorant on day to day financial matters to make sense of what has happened in Ireland over the previous years. Many are still wishing for the good ol days to come back probably.

    My Parents bought an investment property in 2000 as a hedge against rising inflation after the introduction of the euro. They had a large cash deposit (about 80% of the property) and kept the loan on their books for a few years due to the tax advantage of having it there. It could have been paid off in full at a days notice if needed to. Needless to say they were offered lots of loans and mortgages. Refused them all of course. There is something admirable about having a conservative lifestyle and approach to money.

    The dogs on the street knew it was all going to blow up. All the smart money went out of property in 2006. In a bubble if you are going to play the game you dont want to be the person holding his dick when the music stops.


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    #86
    Plenum
    Closed Accounts Posts: 24 ✭Plenum


    Guys, hindsight is great and well done to you all who were sensible back in the day...never knew we have so much economic sages in our midst.

    I bought a house in 2006 which has halved in value, looking back it was silly but there you go...like I said hindsight


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    #87
    amacachi
    Closed Accounts Posts: 23,316 ✭✭✭✭amacachi


    Plenum wrote: »
    Guys, hindsight is great and well done to you all who were sensible back in the day...never knew we have so much economic sages in our midst.

    I bought a house in 2006 which has halved in value, looking back it was silly but there you go...like I said hindsight

    There was nothing hard to predict. The first few weeks of Leaving Cert Economics would teach anyone that the economy was seriously overheating, especially when tax cuts were put through despite inflation being over 4%. Many people and many media outlets that weren't vested interests also saw the fall coming. Our own ESRI and some of the European Institutions also warned that something wasn't right. Statistics were available before the crash showing huge oversupply and much higher rates of housing construction than other European countries.

    It was all there to see for anyone who wanted to see it.


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    #88
    JustAThought
    Registered Users Posts: 5,323 ✭✭✭JustAThought


    There's a really nasty self jubiliant tone to some of the comments here; not the one above. For 20+ years I and many of my classmates have watched the price of houses, and rents rise, and been in a rising and sickening panic of discussing how we would manage or how wewould ever be able to afford a family home.
    I think the OP is right; the extremes of buying planes and 5K baths and multiple properties in. X- aria are just that; extremes. It dosnt represent the majority of those in their20's and 30's who for all their growing life have known nothing but the fear of never being able to afford something especially if you are from Dublin.


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    #89
    amacachi
    Closed Accounts Posts: 23,316 ✭✭✭✭amacachi


    JustAThought wrote: »
    There's a really nasty self jubiliant tone to some of the comments here; not the one above. For 20+ years I and many of my classmates have watched the price of houses, and rents rise, and been in a rising and sickening panic of discussing how we would manage or how wewould ever be able to afford a family home.

    Are you saying there was no self-jubilant tone to my comment? Usually I'm told the opposite.

    I'm only 23 and tbh when I was in school and learning basic Economics I was just hoping the crash would come at a time that would suit me. :pac: As it happens I messed up my education but thanks to the policy of trying to extend the problem for longer it looks like the timing will still work out perfectly. :pac:
    Of course that depends on just how much the rest of the economy is brought down by current policy. While I saw a fair bit of what was coming coming, I didn't imagine that the whole economy was so damn exposed.


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    #90
    jank
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 13,018 ✭✭✭✭jank


    DublinWriter wrote: »
    Well, let's look a history shall we?

    My parents bought their house in 1974 for €3K. I sold it for €280K in 2007.

    You do the maths.

    Of course the same middle-eastern instability and oil-crises of the mid-70's that led to hyperinflation could never happen again!

    The Dow Jones Index was at 923 in 1973. In 2007 it was approching 14,000.
    Also, nice you to pick the absolute peak in when to sell, the only problem with that though is that you probably bought another property, so your worth is now -40%


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    #91
    jank
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 13,018 ✭✭✭✭jank


    Plenum wrote: »
    Guys, hindsight is great and well done to you all who were sensible back in the day...never knew we have so much economic sages in our midst.

    I bought a house in 2006 which has halved in value, looking back it was silly but there you go...like I said hindsight

    Why did you buy?

    All you had to do was go on the internet and read about this.

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tulip_mania

    I was 19 at the time and I knew it was all ridiculous. It was economic law that there would be a crash. However Irish people like to go with the flow it seems.


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