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Gardai shooting to kill?

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  • 26-05-2005 1:13pm
    #1
    CJhaughey
    Registered Users Posts: 14,906 ✭✭✭✭


    Seems that with the recent killings in Lusk of two robbers, the guards are shooting to kill not wound.
    I seem to remember the guards also killing some of their own in Abbeyleix a few years back, Are they adequately trained or trigger happy?


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    #2
    por
    Closed Accounts Posts: 568 ✭✭✭por


    CJhaughey wrote:
    Seems that with the recent killings in Lusk of two robbers, the guards are shooting to kill not wound.
    I seem to remember the guards also killing some of their own in Abbeyleix a few years back, Are they adequately trained or trigger happy?

    Well done Gardai, good to see them cleaning the streets of S**T,
    Pleople who carryout armed robberies don't deserve anything better.
    Agin well done, 2 less pieces of s**t in the world.


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    #3
    Iago
    Registered Users Posts: 6,638 ✭✭✭Iago


    If some scumbag was trying to kill me by firing on my first you can be sure I wouldn't be trying to shoot him in the hand and incapacitate him.

    They opened fire, they paid for it with their lives, deserved as far as I'm concerned.


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    #4
    Meh
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,295 ✭✭✭Meh


    CJhaughey wrote:
    Seems that with the recent killings in Lusk of two robbers, the guards are shooting to kill not wound.
    I should hope so, policemen are trained to shoot to kill. Shooting to wound is for the movies.


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    #5
    CJhaughey
    Registered Users Posts: 14,906 ✭✭✭✭CJhaughey


    Yeah I don't have any sympathy for armed robbers, you get what you deserve.
    But the question remains how well trained are the people on the end of the triggers?
    Remember Abbeylara? that guy wasn't a danger to anyone but himself yet he was shot in the back and riddled as he fell.
    That is not responsible firearm use to me.
    I am not defending the robbers far from it.


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    #6
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 0 ✭ [Deleted User]


    Seems that with the recent killings in Lusk of two robbers, the guards are shooting to kill not wound.
    It would appear to me CJhaughey that you have your mind made up without knowing the facts of the situation.

    Perhaps you should ask the head postmistress for more facts?

    According to the news at one She was sitting at her desk with two gardaí hiding behind her when these robbers started pounding the security screen with a sledge hammer and others were pointing guns.
    Again according to the news at one, the Gardaí have said that these people were known drug dealers.
    They happened to be out on an armed robbery and were bested.


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    #7
    loz
    Closed Accounts Posts: 667 ✭✭✭loz


    Its fairly difficult to shoot to wound ! - esp a terget probably hit behind a car, wall etc, with only the main body mass ( upper body ) exposed.


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    #8
    seamus
    Registered Users Posts: 68,317 ✭✭✭✭seamus


    What Meh said. On top of that, if you attemt to shoot to wound, that lets them live only to take court cases against us (The State) for causing them permanent or severe physical trauma.


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    #9
    Sarsfield
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,359 ✭✭✭Sarsfield


    There is no such thing as "shoot to wound" in the real world. Not with real bullets. And you can't challenge an armed robber with a bean-bag gun!


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    #10
    jman0
    Closed Accounts Posts: 731 ✭✭✭jman0


    So... i guess the consensus is: Bring on the Death Penalty and Let our Gards Be Judge and Jury!

    /sarcasm


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    #11
    Hobbes
    Registered Users Posts: 21,264 ✭✭✭✭Hobbes


    Also they are armed. Now if you were going on about shooting to kill unarmed people it might be newsworthy. They did thier job.


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    #12
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 0 ✭ [Deleted User]


    jman0 wrote:
    So... i guess the consensus is: Bring on the Death Penalty and Let our Gards Be Judge and Jury!

    /sarcasm
    Nope I'd say the concensus is, if you play with fire, the fire will burn you.


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    #13
    Meh
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,295 ✭✭✭Meh


    CJhaughey wrote:
    Remember Abbeylara? that guy wasn't a danger to anyone but himself yet he was shot in the back and riddled as he fell.
    That is not responsible firearm use to me.
    We've had several informative threads about the Abbeylara incident, the actual shooting itself isn't the controversial part. What's controversial is the events leading up to the shooting. Once the guy pointed his gun at the gardai and refused to drop it, they had no choice other than to shoot him.
    http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=169169&highlight=abbeylara
    jman0 wrote:
    So... i guess the consensus is: Bring on the Death Penalty and Let our Gards Be Judge and Jury!

    /sarcasm
    Yes, that's exactly what we're saying.
    /sarcasm


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    #14
    sceptre
    Registered Users Posts: 19,608 ✭✭✭✭sceptre


    jman0 wrote:
    /sarcasm
    Your sarcasm isn't very good.

    It's very difficult, outside of a Hollywood movie and a bad episode of Alias, to shoot someone in the middle of a gun fight and aim to incapacitate with any degree of success. Not when the other guy is carrying a gun and using it next to a few friends who may be doing likewise.


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    #15
    Sarsfield
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,359 ✭✭✭Sarsfield


    jman0 wrote:
    So... i guess the consensus is: Bring on the Death Penalty and Let our Gards Be Judge and Jury!

    /sarcasm

    Nope. But sometimes the result of a shootout will be death!

    Reports suggest the Gardai asked the robbers to surrender. They declined (which they indicated by shooting at the Gardai). The Gardai replied and did a better job than the robbers.

    Regarding the issue of Garda competence (and not referencing this particular incident), I know nothing about guns, but I have family in the military. They don't hold the Gardai in very high regard in terms of their weapons training.


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    #16
    Villain
    Registered Users Posts: 15,944 ✭✭✭✭Villain


    Meh wrote:
    We've had several informative threads about the Abbeylara incident, the actual shooting itself isn't the controversial part. What's controversial is the events leading up to the shooting. Once the guy pointed his gun at the gardai and refused to drop it, they had no choice other than to shoot him.

    Don't want to drag this off topic but I think the Gardai did shoot to kill in Abbeylara, they could hav disarmed him by shooting to the shoulder or legs but instead they just opened fire randomly and from I can remember the fatal bullet was fired as he was falling.


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    #17
    bonkey
    Registered Users Posts: 15,443 ✭✭✭✭bonkey


    CJhaughey wrote:
    But the question remains how well trained are the people on the end of the triggers?

    Thats a completely seperate question to whether they are trained to shoot to wound or to shoot to kill, though.
    that guy wasn't a danger to anyone but himself
    No offence, but how qualified are you to make that decision, and what level of information do you have access to in order to make it.
    That is not responsible firearm use to me.

    Which is a third question, being neither directly an issue of whether you shoot to wound/kill, nor of how well you're trained in shooting, but rather how disciplined garda gun-use is, and what the rules and regulations concerning that usage are.

    Training and intent factor into it, sure, but so do a number of other things.

    jc


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    #18
    loz
    Closed Accounts Posts: 667 ✭✭✭loz


    irish1 wrote:
    Don't want to drag this off topic but I think the Gardai did shoot to kill in Abbeylara, they could hav disarmed him by shooting to the shoulder or legs but instead they just opened fire randomly and from I can remember the fatal bullet was fired as he was falling.

    Do you know what happens when you sever an artery ?- often found in arms and legs you knob


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    #19
    bonkey
    Registered Users Posts: 15,443 ✭✭✭✭bonkey


    irish1 wrote:
    Don't want to drag this off topic but I think the Gardai did shoot to kill in Abbeylara, they could hav disarmed him by shooting to the shoulder or legs but instead they just opened fire randomly and from I can remember the fatal bullet was fired as he was falling.

    Firstly...shooting randomly isn't shooting to kill. Its shooting randomly.

    Secondly, if someone points a gun at you and refuses to drop it and you decide to fire, you fire to ensure they cannot shoot you. The notion that you can safely do this with a shot to the hand/arm/shoulder/ etc. is - as far as I'm aware - Hollywoodism at its best. You shoot to put the person out of action. Again - from what I know - that means chest or head, typically with at a double- or triple-tap.

    Anything less and you're simply giving the target a reason to shoot back, and an opportunity to do so. In that situation, you'd be better off not firing at all.

    jc


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    #20
    Zombrex
    Closed Accounts Posts: 25,848 ✭✭✭✭Zombrex


    Like someone has already said shooting to wound someone is Hollywood nonsense, the police are trained (and should be trained) to shoot to take the person down (completely disable them) while minimising the chance they will miss or leave the person with the ability to fire back. That normally means a shot to the upper chest as it is the easiest area to hit while also causing the person a massive shock to the system rendering them disabled. Ufortunately for the person getting shot, it is going to be very very life threatening

    The idea that the Guards should shoot at the sholders or arms (or legs) is movie nonsense because it greatly increases the chances that the fire arms officer will miss the target or that the perp will not be disabled and will start blasting back at the officer.

    The simple fact of the matter is that guns are letal weapons, when used correctly they kill people. The debate of whether the Gardi should use non-letal weapons is for another thread, but it is not pratical or a good idea to try and train police to use guns in a non-letal manner.

    With reguard to Abbeylara the last theory I heard was the man turned towards the crowd gathered with the gun because he knew the Gardi would shoot him when there was a possibility he threatened others. He committed sucide by what is known as "death by cop" (forcing a police officer to shoot you on purpose)


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    #21
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 0 ✭ [Deleted User]


    loz wrote:
    Do you know what happens when you sever an artery ?- often found in arms and legs you knob

    Take a weeks break for that


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    #22
    Villain
    Registered Users Posts: 15,944 ✭✭✭✭Villain


    I think some of the so-called experts at the tribunal stated it is possible to disarm someone using a firearm without killing them, especially if they a professionally trained unit like the ERU are meant to be. Also another expert said dogs have been used to disarm people successfully in simalar circumstances, remember he had a shotgun nor a machine gun, the ERU would have to have gotten pretty close to sustain serious injury.

    Oh and LOZ spare me the insults.


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    #23
    Beruthiel
    Moderators, Social & Fun Moderators Posts: 42,362 Mod ✭✭✭✭Beruthiel


    jman0 wrote:
    So... i guess the consensus is: Bring on the Death Penalty and Let our Gards Be Judge and Jury!

    nobody said that
    however
    if you get up in the morning, pick up your gun and head off to a post office with the sole intention of robbing it, then you deserve whatever happens en route
    I for one, won't shed any tears


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    #24
    Ratchet
    Registered Users Posts: 1,175 ✭✭✭Ratchet


    CJhaughey wrote:
    ....
    That is not responsible firearm use to me.
    .......

    which use of the gun is responsible? maybe shooting clay pigeons


    unfortunately, guns have only one purpose, there is not much choices when guns are involved and it is not a video game

    the aim always will be to keep casualties low.

    put yourself in position where:

    you "shoot to wound" then injured guy kills your team mate with shot, which should really get you.

    Or

    you put him down with first shot ,so he will not have that previous option.

    Yes, the best option will be that he gets wounded is unable to move, gives up and doesn't see the light for next 20 years



    Unfortunately, there is no right option as use of arms is wrong in the first place and when bullets start flying , rulez go to the bin.


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    #25
    tim3115
    Closed Accounts Posts: 334 ✭✭tim3115


    At last, the Gardaí show some action towards this scum. Pity the entire force is a shambles. Should have shot the 5 of them.


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    #26
    Boggle
    Closed Accounts Posts: 964 ✭✭✭Boggle


    Haven't heard enough about the post office robbery but from initial reports I would support the gardai in this instance. I too would have questions about their levels of discipline with firearms - apparently when they ar eat the shooting range they reckon they are cowboys, running around with the guns held up beside their heads like in the westerns. That being said, the raiders were perfectly willing to shoot the police and so deserved whatever happened.

    Abbylara is another mattre completely and I still do not believe that they had no choice but to gun the man down. I think the situation was just poorly handled from start to finish and stank of poor levels of training and lack of intelligence by those in command.


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    #27
    gandalf
    Registered Users Posts: 26,458 ✭✭✭✭gandalf


    LOL I love how the Chuckie brigade are all up in arms because the Gardai carried out their duty. I suppose the correct method should be point blank in the back of the head.

    The Gardai did their job, these guys opened up first and had to be stopped. The "oh the should have shot to maim arguements are fantasy of the highest order" as alot of others have said already you shoot to put the criminal down and make sure they do not have a chance to shot you or any innocent bystanders.


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    #28
    A Dub in Glasgo
    Registered Users Posts: 17,029 ✭✭✭✭A Dub in Glasgo


    The chuckie brigade? Is that not a bit of a petty baitng?

    Anyway, 2 down 3 to go


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    #29
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 0 ✭ [Deleted User]


    A Dub in Glasgo wrote:
    Anyway, 2 down 3 to go

    Dub, if you are referring to the two that were killed and that 3 more to go...
    Thats nonsense talk and well you should know it.
    You hardly expect the Gardaí not to fire in these circumstances, it could easily have been a case of a garda dead or a postmistress,I doubt the robbers going on past experiences would care.

    The robbers were bested in this situation, its a pity they died but then those that loveth the danger shall perish therein as my mom always says and aiming your gun at armed Gardaí is certainly a dangerous thing to do.


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    #30
    A Dub in Glasgo
    Registered Users Posts: 17,029 ✭✭✭✭A Dub in Glasgo


    You misunderstand.... I would prefer to have seen the whole gang point their guns so that they could be eliminated


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    #31
    gandalf
    Registered Users Posts: 26,458 ✭✭✭✭gandalf


    What community policing style eh :rolleyes:


This discussion has been closed.
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