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  • 04-08-2010 11:19am
    #1
    Annasopra
    Registered Users Posts: 40,986 ✭✭✭✭


    This thread was suggested by Rainbow Kirby following a similar thread in the Ladies Lounge Forum

    The purpose of this thread is to find out if you think there is anything more that we can and should be promoting within the LGBT forum

    We'd also like to hear your general comments or ideas on how you find the forum, could we be doing anything differently?

    Do you think that the forum has too much of a focus on certain issues like perhaps giving advice?

    Also - do you think the Charter serves its purpose? Or is it time to update it? If you think so - what would you like to see in there?

    It was so much easier to blame it on Them. It was bleakly depressing to think that They were Us. If it was Them, then nothing was anyone's fault. If it was us, what did that make Me? After all, I'm one of Us. I must be. I've certainly never thought of myself as one of Them. No one ever thinks of themselves as one of Them. We're always one of Us. It's Them that do the bad things.

    Terry Pratchet



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    #2
    Dr. Baltar
    Registered Users Posts: 1,252 ✭✭✭Dr. Baltar


    Just one thing that I would change about this forum really and I know many would be opposed: It seems at the moment that this board is here for LGBT people where as i feel it should really be here for LGBT issues.

    For example, whever anyone conservative comes to this part of the board and expresses the view that they believe that gay adoption is wrong and would like to discuss such an issue, it feels like everyone screams "homophobic", jumps down their throat and the mods ban them.


    Because of this, I feel that we never really get to hear the other side of the coin on LGBT issues.

    EDIT: I'm also totally opposed to the "no discussion on the bible" rule. I would love to express my views on how Christianity and Homosexuality are totally compatable.

    EDIT 2: Oh and the whole natural/unatural discussion. Why is that also banned?


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    #3
    baby and crumble
    Registered Users Posts: 8,512 ✭✭✭baby and crumble


    I have to agree with Dr. Baltar, however I know can be a bit jumpy. But it's important to see what everyone has to say, and who knows, by engaging with them, we could change attitudes- I'm reminded of roamc, who was banned here but within the night had PM'ed me to apologise and explain that because he had engaged with the issue, he had actually changed his opinion of TG women, and could be seen defending the issue in AH.


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    #4
    Nevyn
    Closed Accounts Posts: 43,045 ✭✭✭✭Nevyn


    Dr. Baltar wrote: »
    Just one thing that I would change about this forum really and I know many would be opposed: It seems at the moment that this board is here for LGBT people where as i feel it should really be here for LGBT issues.

    For example, whever anyone conservative comes to this part of the board and expresses the view that they believe that gay adoption is wrong and would like to discuss such an issue, it feels like everyone screams "homophobic", jumps down their throat and the mods ban them.


    Because of this, I feel that we never really get to hear the other side of the coin on LGBT issues.

    EDIT: I'm also totally opposed to the "no discussion on the bible" rule. I would love to express my views on how Christianity and Homosexuality are totally compatable.

    EDIT 2: Oh and the whole natural/unatural discussion. Why is that also banned?

    Those discussion happen else where on the site in humanities ect and I would hate to see this forum torn apart with that type of debate so that it became such a hostile place as to discourage posters.


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    #5
    Beruthiel
    Moderators, Social & Fun Moderators Posts: 42,362 Mod ✭✭✭✭Beruthiel


    Thaedydal wrote: »
    Those discussion happen else where on the site in humanities ect and I would hate to see this forum torn apart with that type of debate so that it became such a hostile place as to discourage posters.

    Aye. That would be a shame. This forum strikes me as a safe place to post, especially if you are nervous. It would be a shame to loose that.


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    #6
    Annasopra
    Registered Users Posts: 40,986 ✭✭✭✭Annasopra


    I'm more in agreement with Beruthiel and Thaedydal that this place is a safe space. If someone comes in here and is very vulnerable and in need of support, I think that seeing a big long debate on whether homosexuality is natural or not would scare them off

    I also think that situations like you described can turn nasty - I'm open to persuasion but from what I can see those discussions take place on other forums such as After Hours and Humanities

    We did relax the "no discussion on the bible" rule a bit in a recent thread so you did have an opportunity to do so and still do but again as a mod I don't personally want to attract hate filled posts to this forum

    It was so much easier to blame it on Them. It was bleakly depressing to think that They were Us. If it was Them, then nothing was anyone's fault. If it was us, what did that make Me? After all, I'm one of Us. I must be. I've certainly never thought of myself as one of Them. No one ever thinks of themselves as one of Them. We're always one of Us. It's Them that do the bad things.

    Terry Pratchet



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    #7
    Dr. Baltar
    Registered Users Posts: 1,252 ✭✭✭Dr. Baltar


    Well, one could also argue that PI could be used to ask for LGBT advice.

    Where as I do understand that you like the idea of this place being a "safe" place to post, those of us who are past that would like to see this place become more topical, opinionated and diverse.

    Perhaps you could change the charter to distinguish between advice threads and topical threads? Or perhaps create a subforum for LGBT debate?

    There are many ways to come to compromise. :)


    Also, great idea for a thread it is nice to know that our mods have our best interests at heart.


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    #8
    Nevyn
    Closed Accounts Posts: 43,045 ✭✭✭✭Nevyn


    PI has been used and we dont' turf threads from there to here just cos the OP is lgbt.
    But PI does not have the same community to support people as PI does.


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    #9
    Annasopra
    Registered Users Posts: 40,986 ✭✭✭✭Annasopra


    Dr. Baltar wrote: »
    Well, one could also argue that PI could be used to ask for LGBT advice.

    That wouldn't really work because the majority are not LGBT and wouldn't actually understand a lot of the issues - the advice threads work on here because we all know what people have gone through and what organisations can help them

    Where as I do understand that you like the idea of this place being a "safe" place to post, those of us who are past that would like to see this place become more topical, opinionated and diverse.

    Perhaps you could change the charter to distinguish between advice threads and topical threads? Or perhaps create a subforum for LGBT debate?

    There are many ways to come to compromise.
    I can see where you are coming from but I wouldn't like a sub forum like that to be overtaken by people just spewing hate filled - I personally think the mods need to be screeing out the homophobia and transphobia and I would be wary that your suggestion would encourage it in the name of "debate"

    It was so much easier to blame it on Them. It was bleakly depressing to think that They were Us. If it was Them, then nothing was anyone's fault. If it was us, what did that make Me? After all, I'm one of Us. I must be. I've certainly never thought of myself as one of Them. No one ever thinks of themselves as one of Them. We're always one of Us. It's Them that do the bad things.

    Terry Pratchet



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    #10
    Dr. Baltar
    Registered Users Posts: 1,252 ✭✭✭Dr. Baltar


    It just seems that it's an argument over keeping this place as it is or making it more diverse (or anti - LGBT). Personally I would go for the latter, and would like to find a way of implementing it while also keeping those seeking advice safe from ridicule and abuse.


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    #11
    baby and crumble
    Registered Users Posts: 8,512 ✭✭✭baby and crumble


    Hmmmm...

    I think perhaps sub-fora (is that the plural??) could be used to good effect, like having a LGBT 'hot topics' forum, and perhaps a help & support forum, a la our own mini PI...

    I also think on off topic forum would be useful, where anything goes... I think there's a safety here and perhaps it might encourage posters who are a bit nervous to post, especially if they see we're not just all about the gay stuff!


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    #12
    Dr. Baltar
    Registered Users Posts: 1,252 ✭✭✭Dr. Baltar


    Johnnymcg wrote: »
    That wouldn't really work because the majority are not LGBT and wouldn't actually understand a lot of the issues - the advice threads work on here because we all know what people have gone through and what organisations can help them



    I can see where you are coming from but I wouldn't like a sub forum like that to be overtaken by people just spewing hate filled - I personally think the mods need to be screeing out the homophobia and transphobia and I would be wary that your suggestion would encourage it in the name of "debate"


    But that is just it, I find that people shout "homophobia" over the smallest thing and suddenly it's a 7 day ban. I am all for combating the trolls, but some people are genuinely ignorant of LGBT people and their threads are fueled by ignorance rather than hate. I see no harm in communicating to conservative posters about our views.

    The amount of times I have seen links argue about transgender issues in AH only to have posters say "wow i never knew that" or "you've changed how i see that" always amazes me.

    That could never happen here at the moment, and our strictness on homo and transphobia hinders us rather than helps us.


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    #13
    Annasopra
    Registered Users Posts: 40,986 ✭✭✭✭Annasopra


    Dr. Baltar wrote: »
    The amount of times I have seen links argue about transgender issues in AH only to have posters say "wow i never knew that" or "you've changed how i see that" always amazes me.

    That could never happen here at the moment, and our strictness on homo and transphobia hinders us rather than helps us.

    I see your point and I'm not dismissing it out of hand but if after hours is serving that function why does this forum need to? and isn't there a danger then that this forum becomes a bit like after hours?

    It was so much easier to blame it on Them. It was bleakly depressing to think that They were Us. If it was Them, then nothing was anyone's fault. If it was us, what did that make Me? After all, I'm one of Us. I must be. I've certainly never thought of myself as one of Them. No one ever thinks of themselves as one of Them. We're always one of Us. It's Them that do the bad things.

    Terry Pratchet



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    #14
    Dr. Baltar
    Registered Users Posts: 1,252 ✭✭✭Dr. Baltar


    Johnnymcg wrote: »
    I see your point and I'm not dismissing it out of hand but if after hours is serving that function why does this forum need to? and isn't there a danger then that this forum becomes a bit like after hours?

    After Hours doesn't serve that function because of the fact that it's AH and it's more about humour than anything. Yes, you do get the serious conversations sometimes.

    I do not feel that this place runs the risk of becoming AH if it were to become more lenient at all. Like I said, we need to become more open minded of the close minded folks while still combating the trolls. This should be the LGBT issues forum. Not the LGBTPAAAIYFDTGSEBTPIJFUY* Forum


    *LGBT People Are Amazing And If You Feel Different Then Go Somewhere Else Because This Place Is Just For Us Yaaaay!"


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    #15
    Nevyn
    Closed Accounts Posts: 43,045 ✭✭✭✭Nevyn


    So fine have the discussions in humanities.
    It's not that long ago this forum had frankly a plauge of
    "I am not gay but why do..!" threads.

    When people have to justify being lgbt it take from the much needed other discussions on topics and derails threads and the whole forum.


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    #16
    Stark
    Registered Users Posts: 20,941 ✭✭✭✭Stark


    I've had to impose bans on certain types of threads during my time as moderator as the discussions used to round and round in circles:

    "There's nothing wrong with how I feel"
    "But the Bible says..."

    etc.

    By all means, if someone comes with certain preconceptions but a willingness to actually engage in a discussion and not simply flout their ignorance then reconsider the issue, but otherwise it's just not worth wasting the time on the vast majority of people with a chip on their shoulder against LGBT people. They might be convinced otherwise when a loved one comes out to them but they're not going to change their minds based on what people on an internet forum have to say.

    ⛥ ̸̱̼̞͛̀̓̈́͘#C̶̼̭͕̎̿͝R̶̦̮̜̃̓͌O̶̬͙̓͝W̸̜̥͈̐̾͐Ṋ̵̲͔̫̽̎̚͠ͅT̸͓͒͐H̵͔͠È̶̖̳̘͍͓̂W̴̢̋̈͒͛̋I̶͕͑͠T̵̻͈̜͂̇Č̵̤̟̑̾̂̽H̸̰̺̏̓ ̴̜̗̝̱̹͛́̊̒͝⛥



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    #17
    Links234
    Closed Accounts Posts: 20,944 ✭✭✭✭Links234


    Dr. Baltar wrote: »
    The amount of times I have seen links argue about transgender issues in AH only to have posters say "wow i never knew that" or "you've changed how i see that" always amazes me.

    yeah, but isn't that an argument for not sticking to one forum and going out to other areas and engaging people?

    I think this forum is extremely valuable as it is now, and there's plenty of other forums that can discuss LGBT issue, like AH politics humanities and I'm sure there are more, but only one place like the LGBT forum as it is now.


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    #18
    Dr. Baltar
    Registered Users Posts: 1,252 ✭✭✭Dr. Baltar


    Links234 wrote: »
    yeah, but isn't that an argument for not sticking to one forum and going out to other areas and engaging people?

    I think this forum is extremely valuable as it is now, and there's plenty of other forums that can discuss LGBT issue, like AH politics humanities and I'm sure there are more, but only one place like the LGBT forum as it is now.

    1) Well, call it laziness but rather than going out 'spreading the word', if we were to change the way the forum works then others could come here to engage rather than the LGBT members going elsewhere.

    2) I feel that the forum at the moment has two types of threads.
    a) I need some advice b) Let's have a discussion about x that happened in y. But then someone who is opposed to what we think happened in x states their opinion, is shouted at, labeled a homophobe, and banned.

    I would change part 2 section (b) but that is just me.


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    #19
    anotherlostie
    Registered Users Posts: 1,722 ✭✭✭anotherlostie


    I find the forum very serious - any attempt at sarcasm gets put down very quickly, and that's a shame. Maybe you could argue that there's gaire and queerid for lighter stuff, but on the one occasion I (and others) made a comment about a zeleb pop star, a mod threatened bans.

    And please don't hate me y'all, but I also wonder would it help to have the trans stuff in a sub forum of the main forum. I have no interest in the trans threads, and perhaps some of those reading the trans threads aren't as interested in the LGB stuff (which is more applicable across the male/ female divide). I do appreciate that the forum is much busier since it was expanded, and perhaps that alone is good reason to keep it all together.


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    #20
    Nevyn
    Closed Accounts Posts: 43,045 ✭✭✭✭Nevyn


    Boards has a cleb forum, maybe try posting there.


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    #21
    GalwayGuy92
    Closed Accounts Posts: 106 ✭✭GalwayGuy92


    I like the forum the way it is. We get a wide range of topics from trans-issues, to gay issues as well as people looking for advice etc. and serious discussion on topics relevant to the whole LGBT communitee.


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    #22
    Links234
    Closed Accounts Posts: 20,944 ✭✭✭✭Links234


    Dr. Baltar wrote: »
    1) Well, call it laziness but rather than going out 'spreading the word', if we were to change the way the forum works then others could come here to engage rather than the LGBT members going elsewhere.

    2) I feel that the forum at the moment has two types of threads.
    a) I need some advice b) Let's have a discussion about x that happened in y. But then someone who is opposed to what we think happened in x states their opinion, is shouted at, labeled a homophobe, and banned.

    I would change part 2 section (b) but that is just me.

    Yeah I can see your point but I disagree. here's why. :)

    Both times transgender topics appeared in After Hours, it was after something transgender related was reported in the media, and so the issue became topical. first time was after the Lydia Foy birth cert thing, second time was the HSE paying for sex changes thing, both of which were topical issues at the time, so they were discussed in After Hours. But interestingly, the HSE sex change thing didn't come up at all on this forum.

    People on AH just want to talk about things that are topical, at one point it was trans issues, now it's something like this, then something else. I don't think anyone on AH really had any interest in taking the discussion to this forum, they just wanted to discuss it on their terms because it was the topic of the moment. same with politics, discussion of trans related stuff came up solely because it was in the news.

    so I think you're mistaken in your idea that the moderation/direction of the forum is keeping people from coming and discussing issues in the same way that they did on AH.

    I'd be afraid that if the rules of the forum were more lenient, it could encourage more people like Iwasfrozen (who was just subtly trolling and trying to get people's backs up as far as I can see) to post, and create a less sensitive community. A lot of people come here with extremely personal and delicate issues.

    I remember when I first started posting here as an unregistered user, I had been reading the forum for a while, and when someone had mentioned why trans wasn't included in the forum name (at this time it was just LGB), it seemed a bit hostile and some people were shouted down. I was a bit nervous of posting at all and very unsure of how my posts would have been received. Since the forum name was changed, quite a few more trans posters have been posting and I think it's become a lot more healthy, so not having trans in the name and some of the discussion that was going on at the time had obviously put some people off.

    If people are bringing up delicate issues, and they're extremely nervous, the very last thing they need is to face someone quoting scripture at them, the same someone who's been invited here to stir up some discussion. Or they might see raging debates going on with some very openly homo/transphobic posters, and not even post at all

    I don't think we should sacrifice just how valuable this forum is for people who are looking for advice, and who need help, just so that we might get the kind of debate you're referring to. The kind of debate that you can get from other forums on boards if you want it.
    anotherlostie wrote: »
    I find the forum very serious - any attempt at sarcasm gets put down very quickly, and that's a shame. Maybe you could argue that there's gaire and queerid for lighter stuff, but on the one occasion I (and others) made a comment about a zeleb pop star, a mod threatened bans.

    As above, I think it needs to be pretty serious and we need to be sensitive to people as well, but I think there's plenty of examples of humour all around the forum, the funny side of not being straight is a good one. so I don't really agree with you, there's plenty of light hearted stuff going on too.
    anotherlostie wrote: »
    And please don't hate me y'all, but I also wonder would it help to have the trans stuff in a sub forum of the main forum. I have no interest in the trans threads, and perhaps some of those reading the trans threads aren't as interested in the LGB stuff (which is more applicable across the male/ female divide). I do appreciate that the forum is much busier since it was expanded, and perhaps that alone is good reason to keep it all together.

    I HATE YOU :mad:
    No just kidding :p

    seriously though, it's good to give honest feedback, even if you think what you have to say won't be popular. but you know, I'm interested in T and LGB threads too, so I don't really think splitting things up would be all that good. Also, if you're not interested in something, just don't read it?


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    #23
    Chuchoter
    Registered Users Posts: 4,305 ✭✭✭Chuchoter


    This section is definitely one of the more serious parts of boards, and I like it that way. I think it might be an idea to split it up into an advice section and politics/society section? I know we have PI and Politics/humanities/after hours, but you get a completely different perspective here.

    I think the 'homophobia issue' and people getting banned should maybe only be applied if the poster is consistently and on purpose offensive in the thread and has no valid arguments for their opinion. For example, omg trans people are so weird I hate them they're gross is a lot different to someone saying I'm not too sure about transpeople because my religion is against it, and this would only be allowed in the politics section and not the advice section. That would mean real discussions could take place while people in a sensitive situation could get real advice without getting attacked. You don't want to go down the AH route and just call everything a valid opinion.

    I wouldn't agree with a trans-subforum (I love how you can stick trans in front of anything and it becomes a word :P), because just because you're gay doesn't mean you know everything and theres always more to learn. I mean I'm not a gay man but I still read the threads about gay men (which is more or less all the threads) because I'm still interested in them


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    #24
    Links234
    Closed Accounts Posts: 20,944 ✭✭✭✭Links234


    crayolastereo wrote: »
    I think it might be an idea to split it up into an advice section and politics/society section? I know we have PI and Politics/humanities/after hours, but you get a completely different perspective here.

    But is it really busy enough to be split up like that? maybe any divergence of the forum into different sections would hurt it.


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    #25
    Chuchoter
    Registered Users Posts: 4,305 ✭✭✭Chuchoter


    Links234 wrote: »
    But is it really busy enough to be split up like that? maybe any divergence of the forum into different sections would hurt it.

    I guess, it might look a bit dead split up, everything would be like last post yesterday/day before that.


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    #26
    Annasopra
    Registered Users Posts: 40,986 ✭✭✭✭Annasopra


    crayolastereo wrote: »
    I guess, it might look a bit dead split up, everything would be like last post yesterday/day before that.
    I think as well people might just avoid an advice section altogether as they might see it as all doom and gloom

    It was so much easier to blame it on Them. It was bleakly depressing to think that They were Us. If it was Them, then nothing was anyone's fault. If it was us, what did that make Me? After all, I'm one of Us. I must be. I've certainly never thought of myself as one of Them. No one ever thinks of themselves as one of Them. We're always one of Us. It's Them that do the bad things.

    Terry Pratchet



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    #27
    Links234
    Closed Accounts Posts: 20,944 ✭✭✭✭Links234


    I mentioned it before, but what about an offtopic/chat thread for this forum?


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    #28
    Dr. Baltar
    Registered Users Posts: 1,252 ✭✭✭Dr. Baltar


    People do not need to subforum the shizle out out this forum.
    Simply labels of [advice[, [off topic] and [topical] would do.


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    #29
    Beruthiel
    Moderators, Social & Fun Moderators Posts: 42,362 Mod ✭✭✭✭Beruthiel


    Links234 wrote: »
    I mentioned it before, but what about an offtopic/chat thread for this forum?

    That idea seems to work well in quite a few forums.
    I think it also helps to get to know the regular forum posters a little better.


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    #30
    Nevyn
    Closed Accounts Posts: 43,045 ✭✭✭✭Nevyn


    As long as the chat stays in the chat thread and doens't spread to other threads.


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    #31
    Annasopra
    Registered Users Posts: 40,986 ✭✭✭✭Annasopra


    Beruthiel wrote: »
    That idea seems to work well in quite a few forums.
    I think it also helps to get to know the regular forum posters a little better.


    Which forums?

    It was so much easier to blame it on Them. It was bleakly depressing to think that They were Us. If it was Them, then nothing was anyone's fault. If it was us, what did that make Me? After all, I'm one of Us. I must be. I've certainly never thought of myself as one of Them. No one ever thinks of themselves as one of Them. We're always one of Us. It's Them that do the bad things.

    Terry Pratchet



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