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Are you going to pay the household charge? [Part 1]

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Comments

  • #2312
    ninty
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 545 ✭✭✭ninty


    they have gone very quiet on how many people have registered, 60,000 was the last i heard which is not many out of a million+ households, 5%.I also heard there is going to be a leaflet campaign during Feb which also seems to be a change of policy.


  • #2313
    squod
    Closed Accounts Posts: 8,704 ✭✭✭squod


    dxhound2005 wrote: »
    Domestic rates were never abolished in the North. The system is going strong there at present and Sinn Fein dominated councils seem to have no objection to operating it. In the rest of the UK people pay on average £1200 per dwelling in Council Tax which was introduced in 1993. Maybe and independent Scotland would abolish it?

    If 25 other EU countries can manage it I think we should give it a go, you never know third time lucky. Bit early to say it's a non runner. People still have almost a month to set up a direct debit, almost two months to pay otherwise. 68,000 people have had zero reason to hand over their money so soon but they have done so.

    We've covered this. Very few countries world wide levy a tax on your home.


  • #2314
    The Quadratic Equation
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,132 ✭✭✭The Quadratic Equation


    tayto lover wrote: »
    Yes and I will be in great company.
    Any idea when these 100 new prisons are being built ? They will need at least that amount to hold us.

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PcKoYGNj0BU


  • #2315
    seb2012
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2 ✭seb2012


    They're not sending a notice to pay, so how can they prove you actually know. All you have to say is you never heard about it. You don't watch tv, you don't listen to the radio, you don't read the newspapers - how can they prove otherwise. Until they issue an invoice, you are not legally obliged to pay. They are chancing their arm and they know it. Don't register, and play dumb.


  • #2316
    Robdude
    Closed Accounts Posts: 709 ✭✭✭Robdude


    seb2012 wrote: »
    They're not sending a notice to pay, so how can they prove you actually know. All you have to say is you never heard about it. You don't watch tv, you don't listen to the radio, you don't read the newspapers - how can they prove otherwise. Until they issue an invoice, you are not legally obliged to pay. They are chancing their arm and they know it. Don't register, and play dumb.

    I can say anything about Ireland, but in most countries I've been to - ignorence of the law is not a justification for breaking it.

    I've moved to Ireland and nobody has personally informed me of any laws. I didn't get a pamphlet. Nobody has explicitly confirmed or denied that stealing is illegal. And yet, if I steal, I'll be just as guilty.

    Is ignorence of the law really a legal defense here?


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  • #2317
    The Quadratic Equation
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,132 ✭✭✭The Quadratic Equation


    tayto lover wrote: »
    Yes and I will be in great company.
    Any idea when these 100 new prisons are being built ? They will need at least that amount to hold us.

    And we'll be singing the anti-household scam charge anthem.

    The higher you build your barriers
    The taller I become
    The farther you take my rights away
    The faster I will run
    You can deny me
    You can decide to turn your face away
    No matter, cos there's....

    Something inside so strong
    I know that I can make it
    Tho' you're doing me wrong, so wrong
    You thought that my pride was gone
    Oh no, something inside so strong

    The more you refuse to hear my voice
    The louder I will sing
    You hide behind walls of Jericho
    Your lies will come tumbling
    Deny my place in time
    You squander wealth that's mine
    My light will shine so brightly
    It will blind you
    Cos there's......

    Something inside so strong
    I know that I can make it
    Tho' you're doing me wrong, so wrong
    You thought that my pride was gone
    Oh no, something inside so strong

    Brothers and sisters
    When they insist we're just not good enough
    When we know better
    Just look 'em in the eyes and say
    I'm gonna do it anyway

    Something inside so strong
    And I know that I can make it
    Tho' you're doing me wrong, so wrong
    You thought that my pride was gone
    Oh no, something inside so strong

    Brothers and sisters
    When they insist we're just not enough
    When we know better
    Just look 'em in the eyes and say
    I'm gonna do it anyway

    Because there's something inside so strong
    And I know that I can make it
    Tho' you're doing me, so wrong
    Oh no, something inside so strong


  • #2318
    gerryo777
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,216 ✭✭✭gerryo777


    If a house is jointly owned 50/50 between 2 people, who would be liable for this charge? Should each person pay €50?


  • #2319
    boobar
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,226 ✭✭✭boobar


    Gareth2011 wrote: »
    Why does it matter where the money is going? You saying you would refuse to pay car insurance because you don't want the money going in to pay peoples wages or keep insurance companies open? Grow up.


    Why does it matter where the money is going? Of course, it bloody well matters. Do you mindlessly hand over money every time you're asked for it without question?

    My point is, some members of the government refer to this as a charge to fund local services.

    All I'm suggesting is that if it is indeed for local services that it should be transparent as to where this money is being spent.

    As a taxpayer, I think it's only right that I get to see the value that my taxes create.

    I know the purpose of car insurance and see where the money goes. So in answer to your question, would I refuse to pay car insurance, no I wouldn't. And I don't see any evidence in my previous post to suggest that I would refuse to pay something like car insurance.

    Your complete post is nonsense.


  • #2320
    boobar
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,226 ✭✭✭boobar


    K-9 wrote: »
    It's called Self Assessment, it's how Income Tax for the self employed works, Revenue don't have to write to everybody and baby sit them, they just assume it's up to you to register and pay it.

    The high profile anti campaign really leaves ignorance as a very, very poor defence.


    To be fair, there was an announcement some time ago that every household would receive written notification regarding this charge.

    To date, I haven't received anything, and I don't know anyone who has.


  • #2321
    dxhound2005
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 21,385 ✭✭✭✭dxhound2005


    Robdude wrote: »
    I can say anything about Ireland, but in most countries I've been to - ignorence of the law is not a justification for breaking it.

    I've moved to Ireland and nobody has personally informed me of any laws. I didn't get a pamphlet. Nobody has explicitly confirmed or denied that stealing is illegal. And yet, if I steal, I'll be just as guilty.

    Is ignorence of the law really a legal defense here?

    Apparently not.

    http://www.corkman.ie/news/ignorance-no-defence-in-the-eyes-of-the-law-2671409.html


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  • #2322
    dxhound2005
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 21,385 ✭✭✭✭dxhound2005


    squod wrote: »
    We've covered this. Very few countries world wide levy a tax on your home.

    I think I was right about the North anyway.

    http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/ireland/2012/0124/1224310672338.html


  • #2323
    boobar
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,226 ✭✭✭boobar


    gerryo777 wrote: »
    If a house is jointly owned 50/50 between 2 people, who would be liable for this charge? Should each person pay €50?

    I don't see any answer to this question under FAQ on the household charge website.


    Maybe someone here could help you with your question :support@householdcharge.ie

    support@householdcharge.ie


  • #2324
    gerryo777
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,216 ✭✭✭gerryo777


    dxhound2005 wrote: »
    Domestic rates were never abolished in the North. The system is going strong there at present and Sinn Fein dominated councils seem to have no objection to operating it. In the rest of the UK people pay on average £1200 per dwelling in Council Tax which was introduced in 1993. Maybe and independent Scotland would abolish it?

    If 25 other EU countries can manage it I think we should give it a go, you never know third time lucky. Bit early to say it's a non runner. People still have almost a month to set up a direct debit, almost two months to pay otherwise. 68,000 people have had zero reason to hand over their money so soon but they have done so.
    In the UK council tax also covers your refuse collection for the year and a lot more besides.
    Also in the UK renters are liable for the charge, whereas here its the landlord who is liable.
    There's an awful lot of people in Ireland renting from local authorities. Why should they not have to pay if the logic of this tax is that it is to pay for local services provided by these same authorities. Do people in rented properties not use these services???


  • #2325
    boobar
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,226 ✭✭✭boobar


    gerryo777 wrote: »
    If a house is jointly owned 50/50 between 2 people, who would be liable for this charge? Should each person pay €50?


    Just found this under FAQ

    Who is liable to pay the charge where a property is jointly owned?


    Liability falls on all co-owners but payment by any one co-owner discharges the liability of all co-owners.

    Does that sort of look like "We don't give 2 fcuks who pays once someone pays"


  • #2326
    dxhound2005
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 21,385 ✭✭✭✭dxhound2005


    gerryo777 wrote: »
    In the UK council tax also covers your refuse collection for the year and a lot more besides.
    Also in the UK renters are liable for the charge, whereas here its the landlord who is liable.
    There's an awful lot of people in Ireland renting from local authorities. Why should they not have to pay if the logic of this tax is that it is to pay for local services provided by these same authorities. Do people in rented properties not use these services???

    I see in the North vacant properties have been added to the liable list since last October. I would think in future years people in local authority housing here could become liable, or have their rents increased to some extent to make it fairer. The Government probably thought it would provoke a much bigger protest movement if they were included this year. When the charge increases landlords will have to find some way of renegotiating rents.


  • #2327
    K-9
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 43,311 ✭✭✭✭K-9


    seb2012 wrote: »
    They're not sending a notice to pay, so how can they prove you actually know. All you have to say is you never heard about it. You don't watch tv, you don't listen to the radio, you don't read the newspapers - how can they prove otherwise. Until they issue an invoice, you are not legally obliged to pay. They are chancing their arm and they know it. Don't register, and play dumb.
    boobar wrote: »
    To be fair, there was an announcement some time ago that every household would receive written notification regarding this charge.

    To date, I haven't received anything, and I don't know anyone who has.

    I think there might have been a link posted saying they are going to send out leaflets on it. Tbh, it's a bit of waste of resources, the type given out about on this thread because unless you haven't left your house, not listened to the radio or watched TV, not gone to the pub, not spoken to friends or family...........................................
    boobar wrote:
    Just found this under FAQ

    Who is liable to pay the charge where a property is jointly owned?


    Liability falls on all co-owners but payment by any one co-owner discharges the liability of all co-owners.

    I remember reading something like. Who do they go after if neither party pays?

    I think I read something on that, can't find the link though. Say if one party emigrated, it seemed the remaining party is liable. Seems unfair? Yep, but that is how partnership law usually works.

    Mad Men's Don Draper : What you call love was invented by guys like me, to sell nylons.



  • #2328
    gerryo777
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,216 ✭✭✭gerryo777


    boobar wrote: »
    Just found this under FAQ

    Who is liable to pay the charge where a property is jointly owned?


    Liability falls on all co-owners but payment by any one co-owner discharges the liability of all co-owners.

    Does that sort of look like "We don't give 2 fcuks who pays once someone pays"
    Thanks boobar.
    The point I'm getting at is this, I'm not going to pay this tax, my partner is not going to pay either so I'm just wondering who the government is going to come after to try and collect it?
    We are refusing to pay because the only reason this is being brought in is to pay off debts that neither me or her incurred.
    People will come on here and say that that isn't the reason this tax is being brought in but even the dogs on the street know that's not the case.
    Next year it will probably be €1,000 and then there will be water charges on top of that.
    Irishmen and Irishwomen, stand up and be counted!


  • #2329
    gerryo777
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,216 ✭✭✭gerryo777


    dxhound2005 wrote: »
    I see in the North vacant properties have been added to the liable list since last October. I would think in future years people in local authority housing here could become liable, or have their rents increased to some extent to make it fairer. The Government probably thought it would provoke a much bigger protest movement if they were included this year. When the charge increases landlords will have to find some way of renegotiating rents.
    Yea, but even looking at the poll on this thread, almost 25% of people are in the 'doesn't apply to me' category. Do these people not use local services?


  • #2330
    K-9
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 43,311 ✭✭✭✭K-9


    gerryo777 wrote: »
    The point I'm getting at is this, I'm not going to pay this tax, my partner is not going to pay either so I'm just wondering who the government is going to come after to try and collect it?

    I'd assume the registered owner or owners.
    We are refusing to pay because the only reason this is being brought in is to pay off debts that neither me or her incurred.
    People will come on here and say that that isn't the reason this tax is being brought in but even the dogs on the street know that's not the case.
    Next year it will probably be €1,000 and then there will be water charges on top of that.
    Irishmen and Irishwomen, stand up and be counted!

    Whether this tax is necessary is debatable, the €16 Billion deficit last year and estimated €12/13 Billion one this year, ignoring bank bailouts, isn't! To put that in perspective, we don't even take those figures in with Income Tax receipts.

    I've seen this dogs on the street argument, when presented with facts and links showing the bank costs are not as big and not the sole source of our problem, the dogs on the street seem to go very quiet!

    Mad Men's Don Draper : What you call love was invented by guys like me, to sell nylons.



  • #2331
    donalg1
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,513 ✭✭✭donalg1


    gerryo777 wrote: »
    boobar wrote: »
    Just found this under FAQ

    Who is liable to pay the charge where a property is jointly owned?


    Liability falls on all co-owners but payment by any one co-owner discharges the liability of all co-owners.

    Does that sort of look like "We don't give 2 fcuks who pays once someone pays"
    Thanks boobar.
    The point I'm getting at is this, I'm not going to pay this tax, my partner is not going to pay either so I'm just wondering who the government is going to come after to try and collect it?
    We are refusing to pay because the only reason this is being brought in is to pay off debts that neither me or her incurred.
    People will come on here and say that that isn't the reason this tax is being brought in but even the dogs on the street know that's not the case.
    Next year it will probably be €1,000 and then there will be water charges on top of that.
    Irishmen and Irishwomen, stand up and be counted!

    Based on that logic then I assume you are going to stop paying all your taxes?


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  • #2332
    seb2012
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2 ✭seb2012


    dxhound2005 wrote: »
    Apparently not.

    http://www.corkman.ie/news/ignorance-no-defence-in-the-eyes-of-the-law-2671409.html

    Confident to take my chances


  • #2333
    gerryo777
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,216 ✭✭✭gerryo777


    K-9 wrote: »
    I'd assume the registered owner or owners.



    Whether this tax is necessary is debatable, the €16 Billion deficit last year and estimated €12/13 Billion one this year, ignoring bank bailouts, isn't! To put that in perspective, we don't even take those figures in with Income Tax receipts.

    I've seen this dogs on the street argument, when presented with facts and links showing the bank costs are not as big and not the sole source of our problem, the dogs on the street seem to go very quiet!
    €31 billion in promissory notes for anglo alone plus interest of approx €14 billion over their lifetime. I heard an economist on Pat Kenny's show saying that it will be costing €14 billion a year to service this debt.
    That's just one bank.
    We need people to be spending in our economy to create jobs, which in return brings in more taxation revenue.
    All these extra taxes and charges have killed our domestic economy and the more they tax us, the less money people have to spend.
    We are on a seriously downward spiral so we need to change direction if we're ever to get out of this mess.


  • #2334
    gerryo777
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,216 ✭✭✭gerryo777


    donalg1 wrote: »
    Based on that logic then I assume you are going to stop paying all your taxes?
    Absolutely not, but on this on, yes.


  • #2335
    K-9
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 43,311 ✭✭✭✭K-9


    gerryo777 wrote: »
    €31 billion in promissory notes for anglo alone plus interest of approx €14 billion over their lifetime. I heard an economist on Pat Kenny's show saying that it will be costing €14 billion a year to service this debt.
    That's just one bank.
    We need people to be spending in our economy to create jobs, which in return brings in more taxation revenue.
    All these extra taxes and charges have killed our domestic economy and the more they tax us, the less money people have to spend.
    We are on a seriously downward spiral so we need to change direction if we're ever to get out of this mess.

    €14 Billion a year on a banking bail out of about €45 Billion borrowed? Does that not seem rather odd to you?

    Economic Incentives: The deficit and “the banks”

    That's is a pretty good source, Economist who writes in Indo ;), but tends to back his stuff up, not these pop Economists on the radio or TV. Not saying he is right, but it's important to read stuff not agreeing with popular opinion.

    Look, the bank bail out thing is unfair and very rightly gets huge criticism but saying:
    We are refusing to pay because the only reason this is being brought in is to pay off debts that neither me or her incurred.
    People will come on here and say that that isn't the reason this tax is being brought in but even the dogs on the street know that's not the case.

    Our tax revenues don't even cover Welfare and PS pay, never mind stuff like fixing roads, opening hospitals, schools, barracks, that type of stuff. The gap between taxes raised and money spent is just enormous, never mind bank bail out costs.

    Debating over what is a right thing to bring in is understandable, I've problems with the choices of FG/Labour, but the figures don't lie. Blaming the banks ignores a huge problem, blaming the IMF/EU the same.

    Mad Men's Don Draper : What you call love was invented by guys like me, to sell nylons.



  • #2336
    squod
    Closed Accounts Posts: 8,704 ✭✭✭squod


    dxhound2005 wrote: »
    I think I was right about the North anyway.

    http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/ireland/2012/0124/1224310672338.html

    Fairplay. Article does go on to explain what they get back though.
    .....rates are used to accrue a certain amount of money to help pay for refuse collections, bury the dead, fix roads and other services

    I'll still be paying for bin collections, paying a contractor to cut the grass in the estate, I'll pay €100 for a visit to the Accident and Emergency if needed, we'll still clean-up our own estate twice a year and unblock gullys and sewers around the estate ourselves.

    And I might add, we only got onto the local electoral register for the town by kicking up a fuss!


  • #2337
    The Quadratic Equation
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,132 ✭✭✭The Quadratic Equation


    boobar wrote: »
    Just found this under FAQ

    Who is liable to pay the charge where a property is jointly owned?


    Liability falls on all co-owners but payment by any one co-owner discharges the liability of all co-owners.

    Does that sort of look like "We don't give 2 fcuks who pays once someone pays"

    Yes, but which one is liable for the fine ?


  • #2338
    gsxr1
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,167 ✭✭✭gsxr1


    gerryo777 wrote: »
    Yea, but even looking at the poll on this thread, almost 25% of people are in the 'doesn't apply to me' category. Do these people not use local services?

    No. They live in Poland and claim rent allowance and dole from there.;)


  • #2339
    ninty
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 545 ✭✭✭ninty


    Robdude wrote: »
    I can say anything about Ireland, but in most countries I've been to - ignorence of the law is not a justification for breaking it.

    I've moved to Ireland and nobody has personally informed me of any laws. I didn't get a pamphlet. Nobody has explicitly confirmed or denied that stealing is illegal. And yet, if I steal, I'll be just as guilty.

    Is ignorence of the law really a legal defense here?

    Why dont the government introduce laws, dont tell anybody about them and then fine people for non compliance, our troubles would be soon sorted


  • #2340
    dxhound2005
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 21,385 ✭✭✭✭dxhound2005


    ninty wrote: »
    Why dont the government introduce laws, dont tell anybody about them and then fine people for non compliance, our troubles would be soon sorted

    They are not able to enforce all the laws that exist already, otherwise half the pubs in the country would be raided every night for after hours. But if you get caught like these tax evaders ignorance of the law is no defence.

    http://www.revenue.ie/en/press/defaulters/index.html


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  • #2341
    The Quadratic Equation
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,132 ✭✭✭The Quadratic Equation


    K-9 wrote: »
    I'd assume the registered owner or owners.

    Whether this tax is necessary is debatable, the €16 Billion deficit last year and estimated €12/13 Billion one this year, ignoring bank bailouts, isn't! To put that in perspective, we don't even take those figures in with Income Tax receipts.

    I've seen this dogs on the street argument, when presented with facts and links showing the bank costs are not as big and not the sole source of our problem, the dogs on the street seem to go very quiet!

    You see the dogs in the street can smell propaganda and lies a mile away.

    We prefer the views of qualified professors in economics, not golden circle lackeys and shills :

    http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/opinion/2011/0507/1224296372123.html
    Irish insolvency is now less a matter of economics than of arithmetic. If everything goes according to plan, as it always does, Ireland’s government debt will top €190 billion by 2014, with another €45 billion in Nama and €35 billion in bank recapitalisation, for a total of €270 billion, plus whatever losses the Irish Central Bank has made on its emergency lending. Subtracting off the likely value of the banks and Nama assets, Namawinelake (by far the best source on the Irish economy) reckons our final debt will be about €220 billion, and I think it will be closer to €250 billion, but these differences are immaterial: either way we are talking of a Government debt that is more than €120,000 per worker, or 60 per cent larger than GNP.

    In other words, we have embarked on a futile game of passing the parcel of insolvency: first from the banks to the Irish State, and next from the State back to the banks and insurance companies [and next onto the ordinary tax payer and householder]. The eventual outcome will likely see Ireland as some sort of EU protectorate, Europe’s answer to Puerto Rico.

    National survival requires that Ireland walk away from the bailout. At a stroke, the Irish Government can halve its debt to a survivable €110 billion.

    The last election was reassuringly dull and predictable but the next, after the trauma and chaos of the bankruptcy, will be anything but.


This discussion has been closed.
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