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Are you going to pay the household charge? [Part 1]

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Comments

  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 21,386 ✭✭✭✭dxhound2005


    squod wrote: »
    Very true. Except in the instance of property tax which has traditionally been ignored and has failed on two previous occasions here and once in the UK.



    Again the Government is simply backing a non-runner with this issue. That's absolutely clear.

    http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/opinion/2012/0110/1224310052193.html



    Well said. The black hole of gombeenism is where this money is going. What a waste.

    Domestic rates were never abolished in the North. The system is going strong there at present and Sinn Fein dominated councils seem to have no objection to operating it. In the rest of the UK people pay on average £1200 per dwelling in Council Tax which was introduced in 1993. Maybe and independent Scotland would abolish it?

    If 25 other EU countries can manage it I think we should give it a go, you never know third time lucky. Bit early to say it's a non runner. People still have almost a month to set up a direct debit, almost two months to pay otherwise. 68,000 people have had zero reason to hand over their money so soon but they have done so.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 2,226 ✭✭✭boobar


    ninty wrote: »
    Maybe this has been answered before but are we going to be billed for this charge or do we have to find out ourselves about it and what to do, and if so is this legal. So far i have received nothing and only for the news i would know nothing about it.

    I will pay this tax when I receive notification that I should pay it. No invoice - no payment.

    I'm not refusing to pay it, but this lark of announcing on the news "here's the website, register and pay" is dung.

    Especially when there's so much confusion over where the money is going.


  • Registered Users Posts: 197 ✭✭seaniemoylan


    boobar wrote: »
    I will pay this tax when I receive notification that I should pay it. No invoice - no payment.

    I'm not refusing to pay it, but this lark of announcing on the news "here's the website, register and pay" is dung.

    Especially when there's so much confusion over where the money is going.

    my thoughts exactly.i will pay it if and when i get a bill in the letterbox


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,084 ✭✭✭Pete M.


    boobar wrote: »
    Especially when there's so much confusion over where the money is going.

    Hold on! Are you serious?

    It is pretty fcuking clear where our money is going.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 21,386 ✭✭✭✭dxhound2005


    Pete M. wrote: »
    Hold on! Are you serious?

    It is pretty fcuking clear where our money is going.

    This is what the Act says:

    Financial Implications of the Bill
    The Bill has no direct financial implications for the Exchequer as
    the revenue from the €100 household charge will be lodged to the
    Local Government Fund out of which funding will be provided by
    the Minister for the Environment, Community and Local
    Government to local authorities in the form of General-Purpose
    Grants.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 579 ✭✭✭Gareth2011


    hawkelady wrote: »
    Thanks for your input.
    You either still live with your ma and she's going to pay it or you live in a council house, yeah.

    Thats a stupid comment to make. Just because he says pay it doesn't mean he still lives with his mother or is in a council house. Id say the same thing and I have a mortgage on it so you going to say I live in a council house or still with my "ma" :rolleyes:.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,035 ✭✭✭Wild_Dogger


    what if it was 500 euro ..........???????

    Only a 10'er a week


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 43,311 ✭✭✭✭K-9


    boobar wrote: »
    I will pay this tax when I receive notification that I should pay it. No invoice - no payment.

    I'm not refusing to pay it, but this lark of announcing on the news "here's the website, register and pay" is dung.

    Especially when there's so much confusion over where the money is going.

    It's called Self Assessment, it's how Income Tax for the self employed works, Revenue don't have to write to everybody and baby sit them, they just assume it's up to you to register and pay it.

    The high profile anti campaign really leaves ignorance as a very, very poor defence.

    Mad Men's Don Draper : What you call love was invented by guys like me, to sell nylons.



  • Closed Accounts Posts: 579 ✭✭✭Gareth2011


    ninty wrote: »
    Maybe this has been answered before but are we going to be billed for this charge or do we have to find out ourselves about it and what to do, and if so is this legal. So far i have received nothing and only for the news i would know nothing about it.

    As far as im aware they are not sending out notice's its on a self-register basis. But they will get you with not paying one way or another and if you go to court a simple "I didn't get any notice of it through the post so I didn't pay it or I didn't know about it" will get you the hefty fine they describe. If you see it on the news then you know about it and its not rocket science to register either. Your just jumping on the don't pay band wagon. I have a feeling that band wagon will fall to pieces when it gets close to closing time for non-payment.


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  • Closed Accounts Posts: 579 ✭✭✭Gareth2011


    boobar wrote: »
    I will pay this tax when I receive notification that I should pay it. No invoice - no payment.

    I'm not refusing to pay it, but this lark of announcing on the news "here's the website, register and pay" is dung.

    Especially when there's so much confusion over where the money is going.

    Why does it matter where the money is going? You saying you would refuse to pay car insurance because you don't want the money going in to pay peoples wages or keep insurance companies open? Grow up.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 545 ✭✭✭ninty


    they have gone very quiet on how many people have registered, 60,000 was the last i heard which is not many out of a million+ households, 5%.I also heard there is going to be a leaflet campaign during Feb which also seems to be a change of policy.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 8,704 ✭✭✭squod


    Domestic rates were never abolished in the North. The system is going strong there at present and Sinn Fein dominated councils seem to have no objection to operating it. In the rest of the UK people pay on average £1200 per dwelling in Council Tax which was introduced in 1993. Maybe and independent Scotland would abolish it?

    If 25 other EU countries can manage it I think we should give it a go, you never know third time lucky. Bit early to say it's a non runner. People still have almost a month to set up a direct debit, almost two months to pay otherwise. 68,000 people have had zero reason to hand over their money so soon but they have done so.

    We've covered this. Very few countries world wide levy a tax on your home.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 1,132 ✭✭✭The Quadratic Equation


    Yes and I will be in great company.
    Any idea when these 100 new prisons are being built ? They will need at least that amount to hold us.



  • Closed Accounts Posts: 2 seb2012


    They're not sending a notice to pay, so how can they prove you actually know. All you have to say is you never heard about it. You don't watch tv, you don't listen to the radio, you don't read the newspapers - how can they prove otherwise. Until they issue an invoice, you are not legally obliged to pay. They are chancing their arm and they know it. Don't register, and play dumb.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 709 ✭✭✭Robdude


    seb2012 wrote: »
    They're not sending a notice to pay, so how can they prove you actually know. All you have to say is you never heard about it. You don't watch tv, you don't listen to the radio, you don't read the newspapers - how can they prove otherwise. Until they issue an invoice, you are not legally obliged to pay. They are chancing their arm and they know it. Don't register, and play dumb.

    I can say anything about Ireland, but in most countries I've been to - ignorence of the law is not a justification for breaking it.

    I've moved to Ireland and nobody has personally informed me of any laws. I didn't get a pamphlet. Nobody has explicitly confirmed or denied that stealing is illegal. And yet, if I steal, I'll be just as guilty.

    Is ignorence of the law really a legal defense here?


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  • Closed Accounts Posts: 1,132 ✭✭✭The Quadratic Equation


    Yes and I will be in great company.
    Any idea when these 100 new prisons are being built ? They will need at least that amount to hold us.

    And we'll be singing the anti-household scam charge anthem.

    The higher you build your barriers
    The taller I become
    The farther you take my rights away
    The faster I will run
    You can deny me
    You can decide to turn your face away
    No matter, cos there's....

    Something inside so strong
    I know that I can make it
    Tho' you're doing me wrong, so wrong
    You thought that my pride was gone
    Oh no, something inside so strong

    The more you refuse to hear my voice
    The louder I will sing
    You hide behind walls of Jericho
    Your lies will come tumbling
    Deny my place in time
    You squander wealth that's mine
    My light will shine so brightly
    It will blind you
    Cos there's......

    Something inside so strong
    I know that I can make it
    Tho' you're doing me wrong, so wrong
    You thought that my pride was gone
    Oh no, something inside so strong

    Brothers and sisters
    When they insist we're just not good enough
    When we know better
    Just look 'em in the eyes and say
    I'm gonna do it anyway

    Something inside so strong
    And I know that I can make it
    Tho' you're doing me wrong, so wrong
    You thought that my pride was gone
    Oh no, something inside so strong

    Brothers and sisters
    When they insist we're just not enough
    When we know better
    Just look 'em in the eyes and say
    I'm gonna do it anyway

    Because there's something inside so strong
    And I know that I can make it
    Tho' you're doing me, so wrong
    Oh no, something inside so strong


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 2,216 ✭✭✭gerryo777


    If a house is jointly owned 50/50 between 2 people, who would be liable for this charge? Should each person pay €50?


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 2,226 ✭✭✭boobar


    Gareth2011 wrote: »
    Why does it matter where the money is going? You saying you would refuse to pay car insurance because you don't want the money going in to pay peoples wages or keep insurance companies open? Grow up.


    Why does it matter where the money is going? Of course, it bloody well matters. Do you mindlessly hand over money every time you're asked for it without question?

    My point is, some members of the government refer to this as a charge to fund local services.

    All I'm suggesting is that if it is indeed for local services that it should be transparent as to where this money is being spent.

    As a taxpayer, I think it's only right that I get to see the value that my taxes create.

    I know the purpose of car insurance and see where the money goes. So in answer to your question, would I refuse to pay car insurance, no I wouldn't. And I don't see any evidence in my previous post to suggest that I would refuse to pay something like car insurance.

    Your complete post is nonsense.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 2,226 ✭✭✭boobar


    K-9 wrote: »
    It's called Self Assessment, it's how Income Tax for the self employed works, Revenue don't have to write to everybody and baby sit them, they just assume it's up to you to register and pay it.

    The high profile anti campaign really leaves ignorance as a very, very poor defence.


    To be fair, there was an announcement some time ago that every household would receive written notification regarding this charge.

    To date, I haven't received anything, and I don't know anyone who has.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 21,386 ✭✭✭✭dxhound2005


    Robdude wrote: »
    I can say anything about Ireland, but in most countries I've been to - ignorence of the law is not a justification for breaking it.

    I've moved to Ireland and nobody has personally informed me of any laws. I didn't get a pamphlet. Nobody has explicitly confirmed or denied that stealing is illegal. And yet, if I steal, I'll be just as guilty.

    Is ignorence of the law really a legal defense here?

    Apparently not.

    http://www.corkman.ie/news/ignorance-no-defence-in-the-eyes-of-the-law-2671409.html


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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 21,386 ✭✭✭✭dxhound2005


    squod wrote: »
    We've covered this. Very few countries world wide levy a tax on your home.

    I think I was right about the North anyway.

    http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/ireland/2012/0124/1224310672338.html


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 2,226 ✭✭✭boobar


    gerryo777 wrote: »
    If a house is jointly owned 50/50 between 2 people, who would be liable for this charge? Should each person pay €50?

    I don't see any answer to this question under FAQ on the household charge website.


    Maybe someone here could help you with your question :support@householdcharge.ie

    support@householdcharge.ie


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 2,216 ✭✭✭gerryo777


    Domestic rates were never abolished in the North. The system is going strong there at present and Sinn Fein dominated councils seem to have no objection to operating it. In the rest of the UK people pay on average £1200 per dwelling in Council Tax which was introduced in 1993. Maybe and independent Scotland would abolish it?

    If 25 other EU countries can manage it I think we should give it a go, you never know third time lucky. Bit early to say it's a non runner. People still have almost a month to set up a direct debit, almost two months to pay otherwise. 68,000 people have had zero reason to hand over their money so soon but they have done so.
    In the UK council tax also covers your refuse collection for the year and a lot more besides.
    Also in the UK renters are liable for the charge, whereas here its the landlord who is liable.
    There's an awful lot of people in Ireland renting from local authorities. Why should they not have to pay if the logic of this tax is that it is to pay for local services provided by these same authorities. Do people in rented properties not use these services???


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 2,226 ✭✭✭boobar


    gerryo777 wrote: »
    If a house is jointly owned 50/50 between 2 people, who would be liable for this charge? Should each person pay €50?


    Just found this under FAQ

    Who is liable to pay the charge where a property is jointly owned?


    Liability falls on all co-owners but payment by any one co-owner discharges the liability of all co-owners.

    Does that sort of look like "We don't give 2 fcuks who pays once someone pays"


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 21,386 ✭✭✭✭dxhound2005


    gerryo777 wrote: »
    In the UK council tax also covers your refuse collection for the year and a lot more besides.
    Also in the UK renters are liable for the charge, whereas here its the landlord who is liable.
    There's an awful lot of people in Ireland renting from local authorities. Why should they not have to pay if the logic of this tax is that it is to pay for local services provided by these same authorities. Do people in rented properties not use these services???

    I see in the North vacant properties have been added to the liable list since last October. I would think in future years people in local authority housing here could become liable, or have their rents increased to some extent to make it fairer. The Government probably thought it would provoke a much bigger protest movement if they were included this year. When the charge increases landlords will have to find some way of renegotiating rents.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 43,311 ✭✭✭✭K-9


    seb2012 wrote: »
    They're not sending a notice to pay, so how can they prove you actually know. All you have to say is you never heard about it. You don't watch tv, you don't listen to the radio, you don't read the newspapers - how can they prove otherwise. Until they issue an invoice, you are not legally obliged to pay. They are chancing their arm and they know it. Don't register, and play dumb.
    boobar wrote: »
    To be fair, there was an announcement some time ago that every household would receive written notification regarding this charge.

    To date, I haven't received anything, and I don't know anyone who has.

    I think there might have been a link posted saying they are going to send out leaflets on it. Tbh, it's a bit of waste of resources, the type given out about on this thread because unless you haven't left your house, not listened to the radio or watched TV, not gone to the pub, not spoken to friends or family...........................................
    boobar wrote:
    Just found this under FAQ

    Who is liable to pay the charge where a property is jointly owned?


    Liability falls on all co-owners but payment by any one co-owner discharges the liability of all co-owners.

    I remember reading something like. Who do they go after if neither party pays?

    I think I read something on that, can't find the link though. Say if one party emigrated, it seemed the remaining party is liable. Seems unfair? Yep, but that is how partnership law usually works.

    Mad Men's Don Draper : What you call love was invented by guys like me, to sell nylons.



  • Closed Accounts Posts: 2,216 ✭✭✭gerryo777


    boobar wrote: »
    Just found this under FAQ

    Who is liable to pay the charge where a property is jointly owned?


    Liability falls on all co-owners but payment by any one co-owner discharges the liability of all co-owners.

    Does that sort of look like "We don't give 2 fcuks who pays once someone pays"
    Thanks boobar.
    The point I'm getting at is this, I'm not going to pay this tax, my partner is not going to pay either so I'm just wondering who the government is going to come after to try and collect it?
    We are refusing to pay because the only reason this is being brought in is to pay off debts that neither me or her incurred.
    People will come on here and say that that isn't the reason this tax is being brought in but even the dogs on the street know that's not the case.
    Next year it will probably be €1,000 and then there will be water charges on top of that.
    Irishmen and Irishwomen, stand up and be counted!


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 2,216 ✭✭✭gerryo777


    I see in the North vacant properties have been added to the liable list since last October. I would think in future years people in local authority housing here could become liable, or have their rents increased to some extent to make it fairer. The Government probably thought it would provoke a much bigger protest movement if they were included this year. When the charge increases landlords will have to find some way of renegotiating rents.
    Yea, but even looking at the poll on this thread, almost 25% of people are in the 'doesn't apply to me' category. Do these people not use local services?


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 43,311 ✭✭✭✭K-9


    gerryo777 wrote: »
    The point I'm getting at is this, I'm not going to pay this tax, my partner is not going to pay either so I'm just wondering who the government is going to come after to try and collect it?

    I'd assume the registered owner or owners.
    We are refusing to pay because the only reason this is being brought in is to pay off debts that neither me or her incurred.
    People will come on here and say that that isn't the reason this tax is being brought in but even the dogs on the street know that's not the case.
    Next year it will probably be €1,000 and then there will be water charges on top of that.
    Irishmen and Irishwomen, stand up and be counted!

    Whether this tax is necessary is debatable, the €16 Billion deficit last year and estimated €12/13 Billion one this year, ignoring bank bailouts, isn't! To put that in perspective, we don't even take those figures in with Income Tax receipts.

    I've seen this dogs on the street argument, when presented with facts and links showing the bank costs are not as big and not the sole source of our problem, the dogs on the street seem to go very quiet!

    Mad Men's Don Draper : What you call love was invented by guys like me, to sell nylons.



  • Closed Accounts Posts: 3,513 ✭✭✭donalg1


    gerryo777 wrote: »
    boobar wrote: »
    Just found this under FAQ

    Who is liable to pay the charge where a property is jointly owned?


    Liability falls on all co-owners but payment by any one co-owner discharges the liability of all co-owners.

    Does that sort of look like "We don't give 2 fcuks who pays once someone pays"
    Thanks boobar.
    The point I'm getting at is this, I'm not going to pay this tax, my partner is not going to pay either so I'm just wondering who the government is going to come after to try and collect it?
    We are refusing to pay because the only reason this is being brought in is to pay off debts that neither me or her incurred.
    People will come on here and say that that isn't the reason this tax is being brought in but even the dogs on the street know that's not the case.
    Next year it will probably be €1,000 and then there will be water charges on top of that.
    Irishmen and Irishwomen, stand up and be counted!

    Based on that logic then I assume you are going to stop paying all your taxes?


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  • Closed Accounts Posts: 2 seb2012




  • Closed Accounts Posts: 2,216 ✭✭✭gerryo777


    K-9 wrote: »
    I'd assume the registered owner or owners.



    Whether this tax is necessary is debatable, the €16 Billion deficit last year and estimated €12/13 Billion one this year, ignoring bank bailouts, isn't! To put that in perspective, we don't even take those figures in with Income Tax receipts.

    I've seen this dogs on the street argument, when presented with facts and links showing the bank costs are not as big and not the sole source of our problem, the dogs on the street seem to go very quiet!
    €31 billion in promissory notes for anglo alone plus interest of approx €14 billion over their lifetime. I heard an economist on Pat Kenny's show saying that it will be costing €14 billion a year to service this debt.
    That's just one bank.
    We need people to be spending in our economy to create jobs, which in return brings in more taxation revenue.
    All these extra taxes and charges have killed our domestic economy and the more they tax us, the less money people have to spend.
    We are on a seriously downward spiral so we need to change direction if we're ever to get out of this mess.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 2,216 ✭✭✭gerryo777


    donalg1 wrote: »
    Based on that logic then I assume you are going to stop paying all your taxes?
    Absolutely not, but on this on, yes.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 43,311 ✭✭✭✭K-9


    gerryo777 wrote: »
    €31 billion in promissory notes for anglo alone plus interest of approx €14 billion over their lifetime. I heard an economist on Pat Kenny's show saying that it will be costing €14 billion a year to service this debt.
    That's just one bank.
    We need people to be spending in our economy to create jobs, which in return brings in more taxation revenue.
    All these extra taxes and charges have killed our domestic economy and the more they tax us, the less money people have to spend.
    We are on a seriously downward spiral so we need to change direction if we're ever to get out of this mess.

    €14 Billion a year on a banking bail out of about €45 Billion borrowed? Does that not seem rather odd to you?

    Economic Incentives: The deficit and “the banks”

    That's is a pretty good source, Economist who writes in Indo ;), but tends to back his stuff up, not these pop Economists on the radio or TV. Not saying he is right, but it's important to read stuff not agreeing with popular opinion.

    Look, the bank bail out thing is unfair and very rightly gets huge criticism but saying:
    We are refusing to pay because the only reason this is being brought in is to pay off debts that neither me or her incurred.
    People will come on here and say that that isn't the reason this tax is being brought in but even the dogs on the street know that's not the case.

    Our tax revenues don't even cover Welfare and PS pay, never mind stuff like fixing roads, opening hospitals, schools, barracks, that type of stuff. The gap between taxes raised and money spent is just enormous, never mind bank bail out costs.

    Debating over what is a right thing to bring in is understandable, I've problems with the choices of FG/Labour, but the figures don't lie. Blaming the banks ignores a huge problem, blaming the IMF/EU the same.

    Mad Men's Don Draper : What you call love was invented by guys like me, to sell nylons.



  • Closed Accounts Posts: 8,704 ✭✭✭squod



    Fairplay. Article does go on to explain what they get back though.
    .....rates are used to accrue a certain amount of money to help pay for refuse collections, bury the dead, fix roads and other services

    I'll still be paying for bin collections, paying a contractor to cut the grass in the estate, I'll pay €100 for a visit to the Accident and Emergency if needed, we'll still clean-up our own estate twice a year and unblock gullys and sewers around the estate ourselves.

    And I might add, we only got onto the local electoral register for the town by kicking up a fuss!


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 1,132 ✭✭✭The Quadratic Equation


    boobar wrote: »
    Just found this under FAQ

    Who is liable to pay the charge where a property is jointly owned?


    Liability falls on all co-owners but payment by any one co-owner discharges the liability of all co-owners.

    Does that sort of look like "We don't give 2 fcuks who pays once someone pays"

    Yes, but which one is liable for the fine ?


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 3,167 ✭✭✭gsxr1


    gerryo777 wrote: »
    Yea, but even looking at the poll on this thread, almost 25% of people are in the 'doesn't apply to me' category. Do these people not use local services?

    No. They live in Poland and claim rent allowance and dole from there.;)


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 545 ✭✭✭ninty


    Robdude wrote: »
    I can say anything about Ireland, but in most countries I've been to - ignorence of the law is not a justification for breaking it.

    I've moved to Ireland and nobody has personally informed me of any laws. I didn't get a pamphlet. Nobody has explicitly confirmed or denied that stealing is illegal. And yet, if I steal, I'll be just as guilty.

    Is ignorence of the law really a legal defense here?

    Why dont the government introduce laws, dont tell anybody about them and then fine people for non compliance, our troubles would be soon sorted


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 21,386 ✭✭✭✭dxhound2005


    ninty wrote: »
    Why dont the government introduce laws, dont tell anybody about them and then fine people for non compliance, our troubles would be soon sorted

    They are not able to enforce all the laws that exist already, otherwise half the pubs in the country would be raided every night for after hours. But if you get caught like these tax evaders ignorance of the law is no defence.

    http://www.revenue.ie/en/press/defaulters/index.html


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  • Closed Accounts Posts: 1,132 ✭✭✭The Quadratic Equation


    K-9 wrote: »
    I'd assume the registered owner or owners.

    Whether this tax is necessary is debatable, the €16 Billion deficit last year and estimated €12/13 Billion one this year, ignoring bank bailouts, isn't! To put that in perspective, we don't even take those figures in with Income Tax receipts.

    I've seen this dogs on the street argument, when presented with facts and links showing the bank costs are not as big and not the sole source of our problem, the dogs on the street seem to go very quiet!

    You see the dogs in the street can smell propaganda and lies a mile away.

    We prefer the views of qualified professors in economics, not golden circle lackeys and shills :

    http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/opinion/2011/0507/1224296372123.html
    Irish insolvency is now less a matter of economics than of arithmetic. If everything goes according to plan, as it always does, Ireland’s government debt will top €190 billion by 2014, with another €45 billion in Nama and €35 billion in bank recapitalisation, for a total of €270 billion, plus whatever losses the Irish Central Bank has made on its emergency lending. Subtracting off the likely value of the banks and Nama assets, Namawinelake (by far the best source on the Irish economy) reckons our final debt will be about €220 billion, and I think it will be closer to €250 billion, but these differences are immaterial: either way we are talking of a Government debt that is more than €120,000 per worker, or 60 per cent larger than GNP.

    In other words, we have embarked on a futile game of passing the parcel of insolvency: first from the banks to the Irish State, and next from the State back to the banks and insurance companies [and next onto the ordinary tax payer and householder]. The eventual outcome will likely see Ireland as some sort of EU protectorate, Europe’s answer to Puerto Rico.

    National survival requires that Ireland walk away from the bailout. At a stroke, the Irish Government can halve its debt to a survivable €110 billion.

    The last election was reassuringly dull and predictable but the next, after the trauma and chaos of the bankruptcy, will be anything but.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 21,386 ✭✭✭✭dxhound2005


    You see the dogs in the street can smell propaganda and lies a mile away.

    We prefer the views of qualified econimists and non golden circle lackies :

    http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/opinion/2011/0507/1224296372123.html

    Can you give us the words of that song again. They need to be repeated on every page just like the quote from Enda.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 8,704 ✭✭✭squod


    K-9 wrote: »

    Debating over what is a right thing to bring in is understandable, I've problems with the choices of FG/Labour, but the figures don't lie. Blaming the banks ignores a huge problem, blaming the IMF/EU the same.

    The PS pension scheme will cost €180bn and is being described as a ponzy scheme by the popular economists and journos. A lot of them can afford their own pensions.

    It makes no sense to raise the cost of living with these taxes. They just make us more uncompetitive and further hamper growth in the economy.
    Lookat, we're ten months into FG's reign and there's no sign of improvement. They're as determined as the last crowd to pander to the wealthy, the unions, the minority lobby groups, their' mates and make the working poor pay their bills.

    It's not reasonable. Honestly if I could, I'd have the whole fuhken government sectioned. They're obviously off their heads.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 1,132 ✭✭✭The Quadratic Equation


    Can you give us the words of that song again. They need to be repeated on every page just like the quote from Enda.

    I realise your unable to dispute the facts so, sure no problem, I'm glad to. It is better than the lies and rubbish posted again and again by the shills.

    “It is morally wrong, unjust and unfair to tax a persons home” – Enda Kenny, 1994




  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 43,311 ✭✭✭✭K-9


    You see the dogs in the street can smell propaganda and lies a mile away.

    We prefer the views of qualified professors in economics, not golden circle lackeys and shills :

    http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/opinion/2011/0507/1224296372123.html

    Nah, you prefer the view of the economist who suits your politics I'd say!

    Slightly different view on that article, if lacking the we are all doomed commentary and attention seeking:

    Economic Incentives: Some general government debt developments

    Mad Men's Don Draper : What you call love was invented by guys like me, to sell nylons.



  • Closed Accounts Posts: 2,226 ✭✭✭boobar


    gerryo777 wrote: »
    Thanks boobar.
    The point I'm getting at is this, I'm not going to pay this tax, my partner is not going to pay either so I'm just wondering who the government is going to come after to try and collect it?
    We are refusing to pay because the only reason this is being brought in is to pay off debts that neither me or her incurred.
    People will come on here and say that that isn't the reason this tax is being brought in but even the dogs on the street know that's not the case.
    Next year it will probably be €1,000 and then there will be water charges on top of that.
    Irishmen and Irishwomen, stand up and be counted!

    Good point Gerry,

    That's a very interesting approach. As I said in an earlier post, I will pay it myself, provided I get notification to pay. But I got berated for saying this.

    I don't have a very convincing argument to make for paying it, and that's why I wouldn't make a point of bashing people online who are refusing to pay it.


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  • Closed Accounts Posts: 1,132 ✭✭✭The Quadratic Equation


    K-9 wrote: »
    Nah, you prefer the view of the economist who suits your politics I'd say!

    I care for the truth. Politics = LIES

    I much prefer the views of independent economists, as opposed to the few shills on the golden circle payroll
    NOBEL PRIZE-winning economist Joseph Stiglitz has described the continued payments by the Government to [secret] unsecured bondholders as “unconscionable”.

    Ireland’s chances of cutting its way back to health were negligible

    In the complexity of the discussion over bondholders, Prof Stiglitz said simple facts were being overlooked: the unsecured bondholders were paid a normal interest rate for bearing a risk by investing in Irish banks, which was and is the nature of the market economy.

    [url]
    http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/finance/2012/0127/1224310806521.html[/URL]


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 43,311 ✭✭✭✭K-9


    I much prefer the views of independent economists, as opposed to the few shills on your payroll

    Seriously, you have a form of Tourette's with that word?

    Mad Men's Don Draper : What you call love was invented by guys like me, to sell nylons.



  • Closed Accounts Posts: 8,704 ✭✭✭squod


    K-9 wrote: »
    Nah, you prefer the view of the economist who suits your politics I'd say!

    Slightly different view on that article, if lacking the we are all doomed commentary and attention seeking:

    Economic Incentives: Some general government debt developments
    ....plus whatever losses the Irish Central Bank has made on its emergency lending

    I stopped reading after that. Those ''losses'' refer to the central bank counterfeiting €51bn to feed Anglo's debts. That not loss, that's theft.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 1,132 ✭✭✭The Quadratic Equation


    K-9 wrote: »
    Seriously, you have a form of Tourette's with that word?

    I realise your unable to dispute the economic facts, so try insulting disabled people instead. There is no low your type will not stoop to.

    Anyway, so they know what they are again, here's what a SHILL is :

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shill
    A shill, plant or stooge is a person who helps a person or organisation [golden cirlce] without disclosing that he or she has a close relationship with that person or organisation. Shill typically refers to someone who purposely gives onlookers the impression that he or she is an enthusiastic independent


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 43,311 ✭✭✭✭K-9


    squod wrote: »
    I stopped reading after that. Those ''losses'' refer to the central bank counterfeiting €51bn to feed Anglo's debts. That not loss, that's theft.

    Well if a term offends your sensibilities so much, probably better not read much more, anywhere, about it.

    Mad Men's Don Draper : What you call love was invented by guys like me, to sell nylons.



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