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M17/M18 - Gort to Tuam [open to traffic]

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Comments

  • #952
    BluntGuy
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,468 ✭✭✭BluntGuy


    As long as it doesn't veer too far into a general discussion about the effect of bonds on the Irish economy, I think it's relevant.


  • #953
    Victor
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 78,490 ✭✭✭✭Victor


    What is the current status of Gort-Athenry and Athenry-Tuam?


  • #954
    antoobrien
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 6,106 ✭✭✭antoobrien


    Victor wrote: »
    What is the current status of Gort-Athenry and Athenry-Tuam?

    Same as it has been since the infrastructure budget last December. Planned to go ahead next year (as a single project incorporating the Tuam bypass) if and when PPP funding becomes available (it will be partially govt funded like N11/NX).


  • #955
    the keen edge
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,533 ✭✭✭the keen edge


    Just wondering does anyone know if there has been any recent developments with this project.(I live on the N18).
    Thanks.


  • #956
    antoobrien
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 6,106 ✭✭✭antoobrien


    the keen edge wrote: »
    Just wondering does anyone know if there has been any recent developments with this project.(I live on the N18).
    Thanks.

    Unlikely to progress very far before next year, as there's no funding for it this year (unless the PPP consortia pull it out of thin air).

    Don't worry if anything is heard about the project, it will get posted here.


  • #957
    glineli
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,098 ✭✭✭glineli


    antoobrien wrote: »
    Unlikely to progress very far before next year, as there's no funding for it this year (unless the PPP consortia pull it out of thin air).

    Don't worry if anything is heard about the project, it will get posted here.

    What are the chances of it even starting next year? Did it have to go back out to tendering?


  • #958
    ki
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 532 ✭✭✭ki


    Eammon O Cuiv, spoke on the matter recently (heard that part second hand) and he was very positive about it going ahead

    From knowing a few farmers along the route, and there inaction with CPO's etc.
    It doesn't need to be re-tendered, the finance is ready to go and all but the the last few parcels of hand have being paid for.

    And they don't know the exact reason for the delay.


  • #959
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 0 ✭ [Deleted User]


    ki wrote: »
    Eammon O Cuiv, spoke on the matter recently (heard that part second hand) and he was very positive about it going ahead

    From knowing a few farmers along the route, and there inaction with CPO's etc.
    It doesn't need to be re-tendered, the finance is ready to go and all but the the last few parcels of hand have being paid for.

    And they don't know the exact reason for the delay.

    I'd hope while they are waiting they start doing a CPO for the milltown to ballindine section. This is very short and yet probably the most dangerous section of the whole atlantic corridor. Its a shame not to see it included in this section.


  • #960
    ki
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 532 ✭✭✭ki


    Deleted User wrote: »
    I'd hope while they are waiting they start doing a CPO for the milltown to ballindine section. This is very short and yet probably the most dangerous section of the whole atlantic corridor. Its a shame not to see it included in this section.

    The scheme will definitely not be extended. That section will be done by itself.


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  • #961
    antoobrien
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 6,106 ✭✭✭antoobrien


    glineli wrote: »
    What are the chances of it even starting next year? Did it have to go back out to tendering?

    No it does not need to be retendered. On of two things will happen
    1) BAM will be allowed to proceed as having won the tender
    2) The second placed tender will be offered the chance to take it on in the event that BAM are unable to do anything (which should be clear at this stage)

    Interestingly GCC has a €12m budget for works on the M17/18 in their 2012 roads programme.
    Deleted User wrote: »
    I'd hope while they are waiting they start doing a CPO for the milltown to ballindine section. This is very short and yet probably the most dangerous section of the whole atlantic corridor. Its a shame not to see it included in this section.

    There are plans to improve this, see the Tuam-Colloney thread for the announcements made last year.


  • #962
    glineli
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,098 ✭✭✭glineli


    antoobrien wrote: »
    Interestingly GCC has a €12m budget for works on the M17/18 in their 2012 roads programme.

    Any ideas what these plans are or what they could do for 12m?


  • #963
    antoobrien
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 6,106 ✭✭✭antoobrien


    glineli wrote: »
    Any ideas what these plans are or what they could do for 12m?

    Your guess is as good as mine, I didn't see any detail in the document the figure is included under a section that sets out the buget for "Major" works on the sections of the M6 in Galway (€4.7m total), Gort to Crusheen (€0.8m) and the M17.

    At a guess due to the size of the allocation, its likely to be an allocation for some kind of preparatory or ancillary works e.g. fencing the route (how much will two sets of fences cost that run probably 60km if you include the slip roads)?

    It's down form €22m budgeted in 2011 (when construction was supposed to start).

    The 12m in this year is nearly 1/3 the total allocation, so if they don't get to spend any money of this project I hope it goes to regional & local roads because the roads budget was cut by 45% (was €68.34m) to €36.545m - that won't go far with 6,759 km of roads in the county.


  • #964
    antoobrien
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 6,106 ✭✭✭antoobrien


    It's probably nothing but driving on the M6 today, there was some work being done on the pylons at Rathmorrisey, where the M6 - M17/M18 junction is going to be located. Hard to tell what was going on (was driving) but it appeared they were re-routing the power cables to the north of the road and had land cleared of bushes & trees.


  • #965
    black47
    Registered Users Posts: 123 ✭✭black47


    antoobrien wrote: »
    It's probably nothing but driving on the M6 today, there was some work being done on the pylons at Rathmorrisey, where the M6 - M17/M18 junction is going to be located. Hard to tell what was going on (was driving) but it appeared they were re-routing the power cables to the north of the road and had land cleared of bushes & trees.

    Well, hopefully it's all enabling works for the scheme. Last I heard the scheme won't proceed until next year. The NRA will shift attention onto the negotiations when Newlands X/N11 works start in July. The Tuam to Collooney works appear to be progressing this year including the bad section at Milltown. I don't think there is any other alternative plan in place except for GT to proceed and hopefully it will asap. Sooner than next year if possible


  • #966
    galwayrush
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 12,815 ✭✭✭✭galwayrush


    antoobrien wrote: »
    It's probably nothing but driving on the M6 today, there was some work being done on the pylons at Rathmorrisey, where the M6 - M17/M18 junction is going to be located. Hard to tell what was going on (was driving) but it appeared they were re-routing the power cables to the north of the road and had land cleared of bushes & trees.

    There are new power lines being installed and some upgrade works to the sub station at Cashla..


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  • #967
    Charlie Charolais
    Registered Users Posts: 263 ✭✭Charlie Charolais


    Hi all,

    would anyone have maps for the N17 Castletown realignment between Tuam + Milltown?

    CC


  • #968
    Wild Bill
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 3,129 ✭✭✭Wild Bill


    black47 wrote: »
    The NRA will shift attention onto the negotiations when Newlands X/N11 works start in July.

    If they start in July!

    About 3 years ago they realigned some 400kv and 110kv lines to enable the M11; they were a wee bit premature.....


  • #969
    antoobrien
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 6,106 ✭✭✭antoobrien


    black47 wrote: »
    Well, hopefully it's all enabling works for the scheme. Last I heard the scheme won't proceed until next year. The NRA will shift attention onto the negotiations when Newlands X/N11 works start in July. The Tuam to Collooney works appear to be progressing this year including the bad section at Milltown. I don't think there is any other alternative plan in place except for GT to proceed and hopefully it will asap. Sooner than next year if possible

    I heard a rumour (so take this with a pinch of salt) that they have to at least fence it off this year (before September I think) or the farmers who had the land bought off them get squatters rights on the land.


  • #970
    spacetweek
    Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators Posts: 5,144 Mod ✭✭✭✭spacetweek


    antoobrien wrote: »
    I heard a rumour (so take this with a pinch of salt) that they have to at least fence it off this year (before September I think) or the farmers who had the land bought off them get squatters rights on the land.
    Pretty sure they fenced it off years ago, in 2004 I believe.


  • #971
    ki
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 532 ✭✭✭ki


    spacetweek wrote: »
    Pretty sure they fenced it off years ago, in 2004 I believe.

    Not everywhere, my uncle has silage this summer on part of the land CPO'ed for the road


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  • #972
    antoobrien
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 6,106 ✭✭✭antoobrien


    spacetweek wrote: »
    Pretty sure they fenced it off years ago, in 2004 I believe.

    You can see from the section of the M6 at Rathmorissey that there's no fences running north or south.

    I'm pretty sure they didn't buy the land until later - more like 2009.

    Edit - the cpo publication & oral hearing wasn't until 2006, so they couldn't have fenced it in 2004.


  • #973
    black47
    Registered Users Posts: 123 ✭✭black47


    ki wrote: »
    Not everywhere, my uncle has silage this summer on part of the land CPO'ed for the road

    Tell him to try to get the first cut of silage done at least before they fence it off!!!


  • #974
    touts
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 6,536 ✭✭✭touts


    Are the Farmers paying rent to the taxpayer for the use of public lands? Surely silage and other crops are at least part owned by the taxpayer. If not why not? I assume they were well paid in the first place to give up the ownership and use of the land.


  • #975
    KevR
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,110 ✭✭✭KevR


    I have seen sections fenced off. Not sure if it all is though.


  • #976
    the keen edge
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,533 ✭✭✭the keen edge


    touts wrote: »
    Are the Farmers paying rent to the taxpayer for the use of public lands? Surely silage and other crops are at least part owned by the taxpayer. If not why not? I assume they were well paid in the first place to give up the ownership and use of the land.

    We are generally talking about thousands of small irregular parcels of land with hundreds of different owners.
    The cost of the administrative task in dealing with such a large number of different individuals for rental monies that in many cases might not amount to €100, would far exceed the money recovered.

    If we were talking about a small number of individual landowners and large unbroken areas of land it would be a different matter.

    It's also unlikely that the former land owners, who may not all be farmers, wouldn't lease back the land they previously owned anyway.

    The other suggestion is to fence off the land, which prior to construction would be a complete waste of taxpayers, with absolute nil gain to anybody.


  • #977
    Victor
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 78,490 ✭✭✭✭Victor


    touts wrote: »
    Are the Farmers paying rent to the taxpayer for the use of public lands? Surely silage and other crops are at least part owned by the taxpayer. If not why not? I assume they were well paid in the first place to give up the ownership and use of the land.
    The land tends not to be paid for until it is needed and the price will depend on the crops.


  • #978
    JupiterKid
    Moderators, Social & Fun Moderators Posts: 12,887 Mod ✭✭✭✭JupiterKid


    I wonder if archaeological digs and trenches along the route of the M18/M17 scheme have been carried out yet?


  • #979
    touts
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 6,536 ✭✭✭touts


    Victor wrote: »
    The land tends not to be paid for until it is needed and the price will depend on the crops.

    Well if no money has yet changed hands then that is OK.

    However if the farmers have been paid for the land and are still using it then it would be very simple to look back at the records of what amount of land was bought and start to charge rent for that land.


  • #980
    the keen edge
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,533 ✭✭✭the keen edge


    touts wrote: »
    Well if no money has yet changed hands then that is OK.

    However if the farmers have been paid for the land and are still using it then it would be very simple to look back at the records of what amount of land was bought and start to charge rent for that land.

    You're trolling, right?


  • #981
    the keen edge
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,533 ✭✭✭the keen edge


    Victor wrote: »
    The land tends not to be paid for until it is needed and the price will depend on the crops.
    Not true.

    The land is paid for in most cases.
    In the cases where it has not yet been paid for it is due to ongoing negotiations on price and t&c's; certainly not because it isn't yet needed.

    And are you saying that the price for re-leasing for the land, (not that it would ever be even considered let only implemented), would depend on what crops are going to grown?

    I'm baffled as to how anybody thinks this is feasible.

    The only reason we are even discussing this issues is because the project has been delayed.
    In hindsight the land acquisitions should only be were premature, although obviously they weren't planned to be so.


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  • #982
    touts
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 6,536 ✭✭✭touts


    the keen edge wrote: »
    You're trolling, right?

    No. Seriously it might be small but this is the sort of "Arrah sure the taxpayer won't miss my few hundred" that all adds up to the country being screwed.

    I'm picking on the M17/M18 farmers because they are the ones that were highlighted here but I'm sure we could list thousands and thousands of similar little issues that all add up to be a huge one. If I was trolling I would he highlighting the comment about them potentially claiming adverse possession (aka squatters rights).

    Until we all address these small leaks in the system without someone being accused of trolling the country will never recover.


  • #983
    antoobrien
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 6,106 ✭✭✭antoobrien


    Victor wrote: »
    The land tends not to be paid for until it is needed and the price will depend on the crops.
    touts wrote: »
    Well if no money has yet changed hands then that is OK.
    the keen edge wrote: »
    The land is paid for in most cases.

    I suggest the three of you go back and the thread a bit. There's been between €120m and €140m paid to the landowners along the route.

    Rent is more than likely not an option as there'll probably be an agreement with most landowners for use of the land until it's fenced off.


  • #984
    Sponge Bob
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 25,234 ✭✭✭✭Sponge Bob


    Dáil questions indicate that no money is available for PPP payments until 2017 which implies a Mid-Late 2014 start to me.

    (scroll up)

    http://www.kildarestreet.com/debates/?id=2012-05-01.380.0&s=kitt#g383.1
    It must be recognised that the payment mechanism obliges the NRA to make availability payments to the PPP company, which gives rise to an ongoing financial commitment annually from 2017 to 2041.


  • #985
    touts
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 6,536 ✭✭✭touts


    antoobrien wrote: »
    I suggest the three of you go back and the thread a bit. There's been between €120m and €140m paid to the landowners along the route.

    Rent is more than likely not an option as there'll probably be an agreement with most landowners for use of the land until it's fenced off.

    Well in that case some posts and barbwire should be purchased and we finally have something for the lads in the NRA office to do for the next 5 years apart from scratching themselves.


  • #986
    ki
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 532 ✭✭✭ki


    JupiterKid wrote: »
    I wonder if archaeological digs and trenches along the route of the M18/M17 scheme have been carried out yet?

    The one at top of Annagh Hill is dug out and fenced off. [Intersection with the N63] but, How complete is complete?
    Also someone, NRA presumably, have taken core sample along the route also.

    All this work was done last summer. Nothing recent.


  • #987
    antoobrien
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 6,106 ✭✭✭antoobrien


    Sponge Bob wrote: »
    Dáil questions indicate that no money is available for PPP payments until 2017 which implies a Mid-Late 2014 start to me.

    (scroll up)

    http://www.kildarestreet.com/debates/?id=2012-05-01.380.0&s=kitt#g383.1

    I'm not sure I get the point of the post Sponge Bob - are you saying because we can't start paying it back until 2017 we can't build it until at least 2014 (assuming a 2.5 year build)?


  • #988
    Sponge Bob
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 25,234 ✭✭✭✭Sponge Bob


    antoobrien wrote: »
    I'm not sure I get the point of the post Sponge Bob - are you saying because we can't start paying it back until 2017 we can't build it until at least 2014 (assuming a 2.5 year build)?

    It is not budgeted for until 2017!


  • #989
    antoobrien
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 6,106 ✭✭✭antoobrien


    Sponge Bob wrote: »
    It is not budgeted for until 2017!

    I got the impression that PPP's weren't supposed to be budgeted up front, it was supposed to be after delivery.


  • #990
    Victor
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 78,490 ✭✭✭✭Victor


    antoobrien wrote: »
    I got the impression that PPP's weren't supposed to be budgeted up front, it was supposed to be after delivery.
    While the contractor is unlikely to get paid until the road is open, the state will still incur costs.


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  • #991
    spacetweek
    Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators Posts: 5,144 Mod ✭✭✭✭spacetweek


    antoobrien wrote: »
    I'm pretty sure they didn't buy the land until later - more like 2009.
    Edit - the cpo publication & oral hearing wasn't until 2006, so they couldn't have fenced it in 2004.
    Sorry Anto, I thought we were talking about the M11. I know M17/18 isn't all fenced off.
    Sponge Bob wrote: »
    Dáil questions indicate that no money is available for PPP payments until 2017 which implies a Mid-Late 2014 start to me.
    I don't find this very convincing. They could just make the road take 4 years to build.
    Back in the day, DCs and Mways often took 5-7 years to build. But during the recent boom, they only took 2-3 years through the use of early-completion bonuses.
    Seems to me you can make a road construction period as long or as short as you like.
    Still on for 2013 as far as I'm concerned.


  • #992
    antoobrien
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 6,106 ✭✭✭antoobrien


    spacetweek wrote: »
    Still on for 2013 as far as I'm concerned.

    Yeah, Kelly is contradicting what his boss said last December, that funding was planned for 2013. Or Maybe Leo is just getting cute and realized that a Dub telling people from outside dublin (while still planning idiotic things like MN for the pale) is a bad idea.


  • #993
    serfboard
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,720 ✭✭✭serfboard


    The Galway Independent wrote:
    Deputy Michael Kitt, who said he was disillusioned by the response from Minister for Transport Alan Kelly to questions raised in relation to the road projects in the Dáil recently. [...]
    “[...] It is now reported that consideration has been given to completing the Gort to Athenry section only. This is bad news for Tuam where there is traffic congestion and for years, there have been traffic delays between Tuam and Galway City.”

    When questioned on the future of the routes by the Galway Independent, Sean O’Neill of the NRA said that the N17/18 Gort to Tuam Motorway Project is “subject to two main funding challenges” as a result of the current financial difficulties in the private investment community and also in government funding.

    “Currently, the N11 Arklow to Rathnew/Newlandscross Flyover Project (combined project) is going through final confirmation of funding from the private investment community. If funding is confirmed on this combined scheme, it would be a positive indicator toward investment support for the construction of the N17/N18 Gort to Tuam Motorway Project,” he added.

    However, Deputy Kitt appealed to the Minister to engage with the National Roads Authority to speed up the process and help guarantee the future of the project.
    link

    Where'd he get this (report of Gort->Athenry only) bit from? The top of his head? Or is there a genuine information (as opposed to gossip) somewhere about this?

    Or is he just trying to keep himself in the news and show the great things he's doing for East Galway after being upstaged this week by his West Galway colleague?


  • #994
    antoobrien
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 6,106 ✭✭✭antoobrien


    serfboard wrote: »
    Where'd he get this (report of Gort->Athenry only) bit from?

    That rumour crops up every couple of months, he is the cause of this one himself. He asked a dáil question of Alan Kelly stating these "reports". Kelly responded saying that it was in the best interests of the area concerned that the entire thing be built together.

    The one thing I'd take out of the questions is a denial that there are any plans to put a toll on the route.


  • #995
    jenningso
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 131 ✭✭jenningso


    http://www.galwaynews.ie/26016-european-funding-promise-gort-tuam-atlantic-corridor

    But where will the rest of the €530 million come from!


  • #996
    antoobrien
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 6,106 ✭✭✭antoobrien


    jenningso wrote: »
    http://www.galwaynews.ie/26016-european-funding-promise-gort-tuam-atlantic-corridor

    But where will the rest of the €530 million come from!

    About €140m has been paid out (hand, studies etc) - I wonder where they're getting the other €100m though because estimates for construction of the road are €250m - €300m.

    This doesn't seem to be new (it was first mentioned here 2 years ago) but somebody appears to have asked the question about EIB funding of this project. It appears that up to €170m is still available.

    It raises two questions - how much of this money are we likely to see and how much are the preferred bidders trying to raise?

    The article also suggests that BAM have actually pulled out (I knew they had funding issues, but don't remember seeing that they have actually pulled out)
    Work was due to begin on the €530 million Gort-Tuam route in early 2010, but BAM Balfour Beatty, the private partner pulled out because of difficulties raising the necessary funding.


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  • #997
    Neworder79
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 610 ✭✭✭Neworder79


    The article also suggests that BAM have actually pulled out (I knew they had funding issues, but don't remember seeing that they have actually pulled out)

    May just be sloppy writing on Galway News article, the Irish Times story states:

    "the BAM Balfour Beatty consortium was not able to secure suitable funding due to concerns about Ireland’s sovereign debt."

    http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/ireland/2012/0528/1224316807295.html


  • #998
    glineli
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,098 ✭✭✭glineli


    So does this mean we are any closer to getting this project up and running next year?


  • #999
    antoobrien
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 6,106 ✭✭✭antoobrien


    glineli wrote: »
    So does this mean we are any closer to getting this project up and running next year?

    No, as I said earlier we knew about this 2 years ago.


  • #1000
    Sponge Bob
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 25,234 ✭✭✭✭Sponge Bob


    This is a FG councillor in Tuam telling us about EIB funds secured in early 2010 and discussed here years ago.

    He should go back to what he is good at, ie Chairing the Tuam Credit Union :)


  • #1001
    yer man!
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,653 ✭✭✭yer man!


    Funding from EIB secured apparently.

    http://galwayindependent.com/stories/item/2509/2012-22/EIB-funding-secured-for-Gort-Tuam-route


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