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Western Rail Corridor (all disused sections)

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Comments

  • #2252
    pigtown
    Registered Users Posts: 1,318 ✭✭✭pigtown


    westtip wrote: »
    It will never happen because as we have all said - the whole thing was about re-opening the old line - this was always its achilles heel, because the old alignment would never deliver an inter-city service, its physically impossible. The Athenry Turn around in itself will always take nearly ten minutes out of the schedule, one presumes the "express" service being called for will stop at least at Gort - cutting out Ardrahan and Craughwell will save what 5/6 minutes? The average spees on this line will never get to 73 mph as Victor has quite rightly pointed out. The speed of these trains has nothing to do with the operator - in fact the people to blame for the slow speed of this service are those that demanded the re-opening of the line, because the southern loop away from Athenry was never contemplated and the whole idea of a rail line from Galway to Limerick should not have ever been based on re-opening the old line. If there were any justification for it - it was on the basis of a route that went Limerick - Ennis- Shannon Airport - Gort - Galway. To promote a new rail line along a new route between two moderately sized cities on the western fringes of Europe, which have very few commercial or cultural ties - at a time when land costs to build such a route would have been ridiculous was of course never a runner, but re-opening an old line - along a route which required no land purchase was always a compromise that was done to placate a rather vociferous group that simply wouldn't go away - they have achieved what is commonly known as a complete white elephant - and have only themselves to blame for it - Many have said it many times - We told you so!

    Have to take issue with you there westtip. The people to blame are actually the politicians who green-lighted the project. You can't blame people for campaigning for something they want, however flawed their idea is.


  • #2253
    dowlingm
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 5,337 ✭✭✭dowlingm


    pigtown wrote: »
    Have to take issue with you there westtip. The people to blame are actually the politicians who green-lighted the project. You can't blame people for campaigning for something they want, however flawed their idea is.
    pigtown - when WoT were campaigning for the reopening they said it could be done for buttons. 106m was spent (plus some subsequent work on LCs and a bridge) and it clearly wasn't enough to provide a competitive service.


  • #2254
    foggy_lad
    Closed Accounts Posts: 20,373 ✭✭✭✭foggy_lad


    dowlingm wrote: »
    pigtown - when WoT were campaigning for the reopening they said it could be done for buttons. 106m was spent (plus some subsequent work on LCs and a bridge) and it clearly wasn't enough to provide a competitive service.
    Don't forget the cost of the drainage work when it flooded!


  • #2255
    westtip
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,282 ✭✭✭westtip


    pigtown wrote: »
    Have to take issue with you there westtip. The people to blame are actually the politicians who green-lighted the project. You can't blame people for campaigning for something they want, however flawed their idea is.

    Pigtown that is indeed a fair point, and it is a classic case of parish pump politics gone wrong. Yes, the idea was flawed but we lived in strange times when a lot of flawed ideas became flavour of the month and got funding; now is the time for some strong governance - Varadakar should be saying in no uncertain terms this project has been an abject failure, and the rest of the project is not on the long finger or postponed - but is simply not going to happen, he still pussy footed around on primetime recently - going on about cost benefit analysis and scrutiny etc - more reports more money more waste. For something we all now know is not going to happen (talking about the northern branch line now). Yes your point is right - they had a right to campaign for the railway - but those in goverment should have said no - and it wouldn't have been a matter of denying the wesht, if instead of this there had been a real commitment to do what is needed between Tuam and Gort - complete the death trap that is the N17, complete the Galway by pass and focus on one good idea that came out of Martin Cullen or was it Dempsey who coined the phrase - the Atlantic Road Corridor from Waterford to Letterkenny - and provide express bus services on the new dual carriageway (motorway not needed) between the north west and all points down the atlantic road corridor. Yes this is a much more expensive project, but lets put it in the context of our car dependent society in the west of ireland (that re-opening an old branch line was not going to change), our total dependence on roads for our supply chain logistics - and the need to rationalise services like hospital services into larger centres of excellence and to make them more local in terms of time accessability by bringing them closer to more people in the region with safe roads with good travel times. Its called urban and rural spatial planning, sadly its something we lack - its called - The big picture.


  • #2256
    Aard
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,905 ✭✭✭Aard


    The WRC and similar mickey mouse projects all suffer (or gain, depending on your position) from the fact that they're effectively entirely centrally funded. If local authorities had to pay half the cost then they'd think twice before getting behind a white elephant. Many other European countries have local income taxation. In Denmark, for example, it's collected centrally then doled out to the various municipalities. Doing the same in Ireland would ensure that a certain amount of taxes generated in a county stayed in a county and could pay for projects that benefit the county. This wouldn't be hard to do, as Revenue already know where people reside and how much income tax they pay. It would be a simple accounting exercise.


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  • #2257
    dowlingm
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 5,337 ✭✭✭dowlingm


    In 2006, WoTer Frank Dawson from Galway County Council addressed the "Sixth Annual Conference of Enterprise Kiltullagh Ltd" at Ballinlough. A Word doc of his presentation is on westontrack.com:
    Ennis to Athenry 36 miles €74.7m

    West on Track press release May 6th 2010
    "Call for immediate continuation of Western Rail Corridor to Tuam and Claremorris"
    It is understood that the Ennis-Athenry section of the WRC has come in well under budget at approximately euro70 million so the balance of the euro106 million allocated for Phase 1 can go a long way towards rebuilding to Tuam and Claremorris

    It wasn't just WoT being unrealistic to be fair - look at this from 2004
    Mr. Gallivan stated that it would take 12 months' work to upgrade the existing Galway-Ennis line. With the Ennis-Limerick upgrade costing euro13 million, an upgrading of the Ennis-Galway line would cost in excess of euro21 million.
    The quoted Mr. Gallivan's then job was... Iarnród Éireann's mid-west business development manager.


  • #2258
    pigtown
    Registered Users Posts: 1,318 ✭✭✭pigtown


    dowlingm wrote: »
    pigtown - when WoT were campaigning for the reopening they said it could be done for buttons. 106m was spent (plus some subsequent work on LCs and a bridge) and it clearly wasn't enough to provide a competitive service.

    Yes I agree the WRC has been a failure, but that is not the fault of WoT. They were not the people who sanctioned the project. They did not decide on the final route. They have no say in the running of services on the line. No matter what WoT claimed, it was the officials (not really sure who they were and I don't care enough to find out) in charge off the project who are to blame.

    I must clarify that I think WoT are totally unrealistic in their demands, I just don't think you can blame them for official ineptitude.


  • #2259
    roundymac
    Registered Users Posts: 2,712 ✭✭✭roundymac


    The saddest part of all this is that the failure of the WRC will be used as the stick to beat down future re-openings, eg, Midleton- Youghal/Athlone-Mullingar, Navan line.:mad:


  • #2260
    westtip
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,282 ✭✭✭westtip


    pigtown wrote: »
    They did not decide on the final route. .

    They did by campaigning for the re-opening of the old line. They would not have advocated the southern spur/link south west of Athenry to speed things up on the southern branch line as this would have killed off the fabled corridor argument about a line a from Sligo to Limerick via Athenry and the potential to build the northern branch line to Tuam - and the ultimate goal of claremorris to be the Clapham junction of the wesht.


  • #2261
    Victor
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 78,491 ✭✭✭✭Victor


    Ennis to Athenry 36 miles €74.7m
    +
    Ennis-Limerick upgrade costing euro13 million
    +
    upgrading of the Ennis-Galway line would cost in excess of euro21 million.
    = €108.7m, not a million miles from €106m.
    It is understood that the Ennis-Athenry section of the WRC has come in well under budget at approximately euro70 million so the balance of the euro106 million allocated for Phase 1 can go a long way towards rebuilding to Tuam and Claremorris
    :confused:


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  • #2262
    pigtown
    Registered Users Posts: 1,318 ✭✭✭pigtown


    westtip wrote: »
    They did by campaigning for the re-opening of the old line. They would not have advocated the southern spur/link south west of Athenry to speed things up on the southern branch line as this would have killed off the fabled corridor argument about a line a from Sligo to Limerick via Athenry and the potential to build the northern branch line to Tuam - and the ultimate goal of claremorris to be the Clapham junction of the wesht.

    We seem to just interpret these things differently westtip. You see them advocating reopening the old route as deciding on what will be built. I see it as them expressing an opinion as to what should happen, with the experts in charge to examine if the route is appropriate/viable. Either way the route they chose was evidently wrong.


  • #2263
    foggy_lad
    Closed Accounts Posts: 20,373 ✭✭✭✭foggy_lad


    pigtown wrote: »
    We seem to just interpret these things differently westtip. You see them advocating reopening the old route as deciding on what will be built. I see it as them expressing an opinion as to what should happen, with the experts in charge to examine if the route is appropriate/viable. Either way the route they chose was evidently wrong.
    There is no routing along any western corridor that is going to make money or even pay for itself, not since his lordship and his resident magistrate would travel in the first class carriage while going to town on their branch line and all the poor people worked for a few pennys a week and lived in little thatched hovels terrified of transportation has there been any chance of a line in the whest making money!


  • #2264
    Del2005
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 19,032 ✭✭✭✭Del2005


    Aard wrote: »
    The WRC and similar mickey mouse projects all suffer (or gain, depending on your position) from the fact that they're effectively entirely centrally funded. If local authorities had to pay half the cost then they'd think twice before getting behind a white elephant. Many other European countries have local income taxation. In Denmark, for example, it's collected centrally then doled out to the various municipalities. Doing the same in Ireland would ensure that a certain amount of taxes generated in a county stayed in a county and could pay for projects that benefit the county. This wouldn't be hard to do, as Revenue already know where people reside and how much income tax they pay. It would be a simple accounting exercise.

    You know that nearly every county apart from the greater Dublin area are net receivers of money.

    If local taxes paid for projects, rural Ireland would have less than it has now.


  • #2265
    Aard
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,905 ✭✭✭Aard


    I never said ONLY local taxes. I suggested partial local funding. 50% would be an upper limit imo. And yeah, that's kinda the point too -- Dublin would get more than it does today.


  • #2266
    westtip
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,282 ✭✭✭westtip


    pigtown wrote: »
    We seem to just interpret these things differently westtip. You see them advocating reopening the old route as deciding on what will be built. I see it as them expressing an opinion as to what should happen, with the experts in charge to examine if the route is appropriate/viable. Either way the route they chose was evidently wrong.

    The old route was the mantra and the way WOT marketed and pitched the campaign - no politician or planner in his/her right mind was going to advocate further expense to the project by buying land for a new route. They got what they asked for and we now know A poor policy decision was made.

    WOT also influenced the process producing ludicrously optimistic forecasts for usage as I recall but really have not got the energy to dig out, the forecast usage figures were a complete fudge, which many said you are having a laugh aren't you? They won't get a second chance to hoodwink the public purse - which is why the northern branch line will never be re-opened.

    It was never going to work because there simply aren't enough people to justify it, even with a reasonable amount of subvention. And the point is they (WOT), even now continue to stick with the old route mantra because you only have to look at the opposition and arguments they have put in place against a greenway on for example the claremorris/collooney route - that the route must be preserved forever in posterity for use as a railway that will never come and we will stop anything else out of spite. WOT are getting all worked up now about the figures on ennis/athenry and blaming the operator, perhaps they should look at themselves and be asking; Was this project all we cracked it up to be. It has done no favours to other rail projects and done no favours to the west this is why Varadakar should take his red pen out and say enough is enough and no more. Debate over.


  • #2267
    roundymac
    Registered Users Posts: 2,712 ✭✭✭roundymac


    A poor policy decision and a poor operation could have only one out come. How many extra votes did that decision garner for Bertie and his bunch, was the decision to reopen it taken at the "Galway Race Tent".:mad:


  • #2268
    pigtown
    Registered Users Posts: 1,318 ✭✭✭pigtown


    To be honest roundmac I don't know anyone who decided to vote for Bertie because of the WRC. Granted I live in county Limerick so maybe people who live near the line may have been swayed but I never got the sense that the public really wanted the line. Maybe I just havn't been paying attention.


  • #2269
    westtip
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,282 ✭✭✭westtip


    pigtown wrote: »
    To be honest roundmac I don't know anyone who decided to vote for Bertie because of the WRC. Granted I live in county Limerick so maybe people who live near the line may have been swayed but I never got the sense that the public really wanted the line. Maybe I just havn't been paying attention.

    It was a case of those who shouted loudest got the most attention - I think you are quite right it never has really been big issue with the electorate, despite WOT some would have us believe.


  • #2270
    serfboard
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,720 ✭✭✭serfboard


    pigtown wrote: »
    I never got the sense that the public really wanted the line. Maybe I just havn't been paying attention.

    There was some petition I think, that had X thousand signatures saying to re-open the line, and that was where the "mandate" came from.

    But sure, you could ask the great un-washed anything, and they'll agree to it. Once it's explained to them properly - each journey that someone makes, you are going to be subventing them to the tune of €85 - you'd see people change their tune.

    Of course, the petition never asked - "Will you use the line?". If it had, the answer might have been different.

    Equally the answer might have been the same. However, if the question was asked "Will you use the train to get to work everyday?", and if only those people could have been permitted to sign the petition, then the pitiful numbers would have ensured that this money was not wasted.

    This was not a failure of economics, planning or transport. This was a failure of politics.

    Of course, I echo what was said earlier and what Leo said on PrimeTime - this was a decision taken when we thought we were going to be rich forever, and that we could afford to waste €100 million. That day is gone. But just because we originally wasted the money is no reason to continue wasting it by keeping the service open. (Again from PrimeTime) The Minister said he was going to make it work.

    He won't.


  • #2271
    corktina
    Closed Accounts Posts: 17,733 ✭✭✭✭corktina


    well done whoever moved this!


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  • #2272
    nlgbbbblth
    Closed Accounts Posts: 5,668 ✭✭✭nlgbbbblth


    roundymac wrote: »
    A poor policy decision and a poor operation could have only one out come. How many extra votes did that decision garner for Bertie and his bunch, was the decision to reopen it taken at the "Galway Race Tent".:mad:

    Surely the Galway race tent bunch would prefer driving or helicopters as their mode of transport?


  • #2273
    pigtown
    Registered Users Posts: 1,318 ✭✭✭pigtown


    serfboard wrote: »
    There was some petition I think, that had X thousand signatures saying to re-open the line, and that was where the "mandate" came from.

    But sure, you could ask the great un-washed anything, and they'll agree to it. Once it's explained to them properly - each journey that someone makes, you are going to be subventing them to the tune of €85 - you'd see people change their tune.

    Of course, the petition never asked - "Will you use the line?". If it had, the answer might have been different.

    Equally the answer might have been the same. However, if the question was asked "Will you use the train to get to work everyday?", and if only those people could have been permitted to sign the petition, then the pitiful numbers would have ensured that this money was not wasted.

    This was not a failure of economics, planning or transport. This was a failure of politics.

    Of course, I echo what was said earlier and what Leo said on PrimeTime - this was a decision taken when we thought we were going to be rich forever, and that we could afford to waste €100 million. That day is gone. But just because we originally wasted the money is no reason to continue wasting it by keeping the service open. (Again from PrimeTime) The Minister said he was going to make it work.

    He won't.

    Didn't know about that petition. Was it something like this one that the Nenagh Rail Partnership undertook?
    http://www.irishrailwaynews.com/docs/NenaghRailStudy.pdf


  • #2274
    eth0
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,635 ✭✭✭eth0


    nlgbbbblth wrote: »
    Surely the Galway race tent bunch would prefer driving or helicopters as their mode of transport?

    Obligatory "transporting people by helicopter is cheaper than transporting them on the WRC" comment goes here.

    also "Ah sure everybody has helicopters nowadays, who needs rail?"


  • #2275
    Ted Mosby
    Closed Accounts Posts: 47 ✭Ted Mosby


    eth0 wrote: »
    Obligatory "transporting people by helicopter is cheaper than transporting them on the WRC" comment goes here.

    also "Ah sure everybody has helicopters nowadays, who needs rail?"

    The old chestnut that it would be cheaper to pay for taxis for the users of rail services is one that got trotted out during the construction of the Luas. And the DART. In fact there has always been an organised campaign against investment in any rail project in this country. The taxi shibboleth has been the standard objection to rail investment by a particular campaigner in the United States. This campaigner was regularly cited as an "expert" by several commentators in the Sundays during the construction of Luas. It would not be a huge leap of imagination to make a connection between graduates of Sean Barrett's classes, endemic anti rail rhetoric and those with a vested interest in the scrapping of the railways.

    Irish Rail's perverse attitude to its own infrastructure, with the calculated destruction of the rail connections at Rosslare and the encouraging of the notion, readily taken up here, that somehow rail investment is a zero sum game has not helped. As long as Coras Iompair Eireann remains as a gigantic outdoor relief scheme for its employees instead of being a manager of national infrastructure then dysfunctional decisions such as poor line speeds will continue to be made about transport strategy.


  • #2276
    westtip
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,282 ✭✭✭westtip


    I think the point really is - it won't maek one jot of diference who runs the WRC because you can't make a bad job work. There simply isn't hte demand for it. Arguments against LUAS or DART are quite ridiculous, becasue the Wesht awake crowd need to realise, Dublin happens to be where we do hve some semblance of a critical mass of people to justify light rail, suburban rail and tram services. I agree with the comments about CIE; Aer Lingus, ESB, and many parts of or semi-states have always been "members clubs". Its part of our dysfunctional management of public services.


  • #2277
    foggy_lad
    Closed Accounts Posts: 20,373 ✭✭✭✭foggy_lad


    westtip wrote: »
    I think the point really is - it won't maek one jot of diference who runs the WRC because you can't make a bad job work. There simply isn't hte demand for it. Arguments against LUAS or DART are quite ridiculous, becasue the Wesht awake crowd need to realise, Dublin happens to be where we do hve some semblance of a critical mass of people to justify light rail, suburban rail and tram services. I agree with the comments about CIE; Aer Lingus, ESB, and many parts of or semi-states have always been "members clubs". Its part of our dysfunctional management of public services.
    The point should be that it was a good job for the money and well done on achieving sub 2hour journeys with the alignment forced upon them, but they were never going to make a silk purse out of a sows ear! If there had been unlimited resources the speeds could have been increased more with level crossings automated or removed by bridges etc but for the money spent it appears to have been value for what was bought,

    BUT what was bought was not needed, not accessible by the majority of people along the route and not wanted apart from a few who wanted to relive the days of their grandparents when every crossroads and mountain dog box had a railway station and these misguided souls lobbied every politician and harranged everyone else who would listen till they just stopped listening and agreed to the project just to shut them up!


  • #2278
    L1011
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 69,559 ✭✭✭✭L1011


    Ted Mosby wrote: »
    The old chestnut that it would be cheaper to pay for taxis for the users of rail services is one that got trotted out during the construction of the Luas. And the DART.

    There's a slight problem comparing the WRC to the Dart and the Luas, which is that the usage figures of the WRC are so low that the "old chestnut" is completely true.


  • #2279
    corktina
    Closed Accounts Posts: 17,733 ✭✭✭✭corktina


    Yes that is so.2 taxis would suffice for the average train, and also would get the passengers to their destination quicker. I think it was suggested that it would also be cheaper to actually BUY taxis for individuals than subsidise the WRC


  • #2280
    dowlingm
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 5,337 ✭✭✭dowlingm


    you have to look at the whole picture with this sort of thing. Look at France. They are putting tram/LRT into some fairly small towns, some even comparable in size to Cork and some other places which in Ireland are called cities because a dead king gave out a charter. to the likes of the WRC that's license to put rail in every part of rural Ireland they live in.

    But look at the payback. In Ireland, you get some skilled employment and so on but the local buy is limited. In France it subsidises the local champion (Alstom La Rochelle) with some foreign wins here and there to make things look kosher, but France also has steel and whatnot - every mile of Irish heavy or light rail is made abroad. Because of the level of imported and untariffed goods the payback for the national exchequer is consequently smaller and thus the cost/benefit must be higher on the residual spend.


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  • #2281
    westtip
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,282 ✭✭✭westtip


    MYOB wrote: »
    There's a slight problem comparing the WRC to the Dart and the Luas, which is that the usage figures of the WRC are so low that the "old chestnut" is completely true.

    +1 MYOB its the part they just don't get. The project was doomed to failure simply on the grounds of demographics. Its the old chestnut that the Wesht was being starved out of existence without this railway that really is the painful experience.

    Was staying with friends near stanstead aiport last week We wallked the Flitch Way http://www.gps-routes.co.uk/routes/home.nsf/RoutesLinksCycle/flitch-way-walking-and-cycle-route

    A greenway route along an old victorian branch line running through Essex. It was full of families out walking and cycling, stopping off at cafe on the route in one of the old stations. The people in the area love it. Of course there are loads of examples of such local greenways in the UK, and the funny thing is most of them get used by more people per day than the ennis athenry line!

    And just think what we could have on the WRC from Collooney to Ennis had we got the imagination. It would be a tourist mecca.


  • #2282
    eth0
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,635 ✭✭✭eth0


    westtip wrote: »
    +1 MYOB its the part they just don't get. The project was doomed to failure simply on the grounds of demographics. Its the old chestnut that the Wesht was being starved out of existence without this railway that really is the painful experience.

    Was staying with friends near stanstead aiport last week We wallked the Flitch Way http://www.gps-routes.co.uk/routes/home.nsf/RoutesLinksCycle/flitch-way-walking-and-cycle-route

    A greenway route along an old victorian branch line running through Essex. It was full of families out walking and cycling, stopping off at cafe on the route in one of the old stations. The people in the area love it. Of course there are loads of examples of such local greenways in the UK, and the funny thing is most of them get used by more people per day than the ennis athenry line!

    And just think what we could have on the WRC from Collooney to Ennis had we got the imagination. It would be a tourist mecca.


    Eventually the greenway will become so popular we'd need a small tram beside the greenway just to transport people to different parts of it. Faster trains from dublin to sligo because tourists arriving in dublin cant wait to get to the greenway. A whole city could be built around it and kick start the Celtic Tiger 3.0


  • #2283
    Aard
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,905 ✭✭✭Aard


    ^^ Eh, the whole point of a greenway is that people walk or cycle it. Transporting them by tram defeats the purpose.

    What a red herring!


  • #2284
    eth0
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,635 ✭✭✭eth0


    Aard wrote: »
    ^^ Eh, the whole point of a greenway is that people walk or cycle it. Transporting them by tram defeats the purpose.

    What a red herring!


    Ah but ya have to look after the ould wans and people who dont have time to walk all of it


  • #2285
    westtip
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,282 ✭✭✭westtip


    eth0 wrote: »
    Ah but ya have to look after the ould wans and people who dont have time to walk all of it

    eth0 your sarcasm is wasted. However your reference to ould wans is interesting as the grey euro/dollar/pound and expenditure by greying baby boomer tourists is what will make a greenway so cost effective. This is the problem with those that just don't gettit. Railways are not being opened in sparsely populated rural areas, Extinct C19th railway alignments have been put to good use as greenways across Europe and the United States. But in Ireland we have to cowtow to one pressure group who claim to be right because they have been bleating the same message for 35 years and because the county councillors in one or two counties have hung their career cloaks on this peg and don't have gumption to question their own narrow convictions. A greenway will not create Celtic Tiger 3.0 - it will however give a sense of realism to post Celtic Tiger 1.0. This country needs more tourist euros not more subvented empty rural trains.


  • #2286
    Solair
    Closed Accounts Posts: 7,230 ✭✭✭Solair


    This argument was perhaps true in the past, and it is true IF those companies can win public tenders in France.

    However, there are cases where Bombardier and Siemens have won French LRT contracts ahead of Alstom and other French companies.

    Light rail would make some sense on a small scale in Cork btw. It has a metropolitan area of about 420,000 people.

    The WRC simply makes no economic sense though. It's not achieving anything at all and seems to be of no benefit whatsoever to the local area.

    It would have made more sense to open the lines linking into Galway's commuter towns and ensuring a decent frequency of local commuter trains than slashing the cash on this thing. A rail investment like that might have been beneficial to the West.


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  • #2287
    yer man!
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,653 ✭✭✭yer man!


    I don't think there's much of a point anymore in saying the same thing over and over and over and over again, that it shouldn't have been built and that it should be shut down, personally I think it shouldn't have been built but it's built now and there's a commitment there so it will not be shut down for the foreseeable future so there's little point in bitc*ing constantly. Ways to try and allow the line attract more people need to be looked at. Of course the population density is low along the line but there is a lot of people living within 15mins of a station. Look at park and ride in Galway during december for example, nobody thought it would attract very many people but it did and was a great success (albeit subsidized). One of the main reasons for this was that it was so cheap, €2 to park the car and get the bus into the city, bargain! Same idea could be adopted along this line, people park their car for free at any station an get a commuter ticket for cheaper than the bus and you would have people using it. Gort for example has many commuters passing through it everyday for work, if some of them got the train return for like €6 and free parking at the station I think they would gladly go for that, you can't park at many bus stops and if you can then it'll be charged. If it's cheap they will come!!


  • #2288
    foggy_lad
    Closed Accounts Posts: 20,373 ✭✭✭✭foggy_lad


    yer man! wrote: »
    I don't think there's much of a point anymore in saying the same thing over and over and over and over again, that it shouldn't have been built and that it should be shut down, personally I think it shouldn't have been built but it's built now and there's a commitment there so it will not be shut down for the foreseeable future so there's little point in bitc*ing constantly.

    If it is shut down a lot of money much needed elsewhere will be saved!

    Ways to try and allow the line attract more people need to be looked at. Of course the population density is low along the line but there is a lot of people living within 15mins of a station. Look at park and ride in Galway during december for example, nobody thought it would attract very many people but it did and was a great success (albeit subsidized).

    There are thousands of people living within 15 minutes of the park and ride in Galway but nobody living out in the sticks and anybody with a car and sense will drive to Galway or limerick rather than get an expensive noisy train and if shopping they will be much more comfortable getting their purchases home rather than dragging them to the station, onto train then off train and into the car anyway for the last 15-20 minutes.



    One of the main reasons for this was that it was so cheap, €2 to park the car and get the bus into the city, bargain! Same idea could be adopted along this line, people park their car for free at any station an get a commuter ticket for cheaper than the bus and you would have people using it.

    So the answer is throw even more money down the toilet that is the western rail corridor? It is already massively subsidised and Irish rail are on their knees as far as money goes so can't afford to lose money on pipe dreams! It would already be cheaper to send each person in their own taxi but your suggestion makes sense if they were to buy every passenger a bus ticket it would be cheaper than running the train!


    Gort for example has many commuters passing through it everyday for work, if some of them got the train return for like €6 and free parking at the station I think they would gladly go for that, you can't park at many bus stops and if you can then it'll be charged. If it's cheap they will come!!
    People don't need to park at the bus stops because they are situated much closer to where people live unlike a Victorian railway that has not moved with the times in either alignment or speed!

    Tear up the rails and save the country an absolute fortune!


  • #2289
    yer man!
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,653 ✭✭✭yer man!


    foggy_lad wrote: »
    People don't need to park at the bus stops because they are situated much closer to where people live unlike a Victorian railway that has not moved with the times in either alignment or speed!

    Tear up the rails and save the country an absolute fortune!
    You do know there are a lot of people who live in the countryside whereby bus stops are few and far between because of massive area and are expensive and infrequent anyway. We aren't a densely populated country, people would have to travel a little bit of the way to get to use public transport. Park and ride in Galway was for cars only, ergo people who were not within walking distance. You say nobody lives in the "sticks" jesus have ever been to the west of Ireland.....? Arguing with you is like shaving with a bowling pin tbh.


  • #2290
    foggy_lad
    Closed Accounts Posts: 20,373 ✭✭✭✭foggy_lad


    yer man! wrote: »
    You do know there are a lot of people who live in the countryside whereby bus stops are few and far between because of massive area and are expensive and infrequent anyway. We aren't a densely populated country, people would have to travel a little bit of the way to get to use public transport. Park and ride in Galway was for cars only, ergo people who were not within walking distance. You say nobody lives in the "sticks" jesus have ever been to the west of Ireland.....? Arguing with you is like shaving with a bowling pin tbh.
    Currently you cant buy an on-line ticket or even reserve a seat for the western rail corridor which is described as an inter-city service and even if you could it is going to cost more and take much longer than the express bus service! Why would anyone spend more for a longer less comfortable journey?


  • #2291
    yer man!
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,653 ✭✭✭yer man!


    foggy_lad wrote: »
    Currently you cant buy an on-line ticket or even reserve a seat for the western rail corridor which is described as an inter-city service and even if you could it is going to cost more and take much longer than the express bus service! Why would anyone spend more for a longer less comfortable journey?
    Exactly!
    1. Online ticketing needs to be introduced.
    2. Must be cheaper than the bus.
    3. Free parking if not already at all stations along route.
    4. Advertise a reasonable price on facebook/ billboards on the limerick to Galway route/ local papers/ twitter/ radio stations/ college newspapers!!! (17000 students in Nuig read this as its free)
    5. Really good student deals and combined rail and city bus tickets as most people need bus once in city.
    6. Must be able to be in Galway city before half 8 in the morning for commuters.
    7. Advertise tax saver tickets, some of these are a bargain.
    8. Skip stations where there are no ppl, eg. Ardrahan.
    9. Focus on commuter rail instead of intercity.
    10. If there was money the construction of proper bend befor limerick junction for trains going to cork would be good. One train could travel from cork to Galway and back again, this is horrible to travel on a bus and is expensive. Obviously this is a dream bit still this would bethe only way an intercity service could exist in my opinion.

    These ideas aren't perfect but they are relatively low cost and could make an impact. City council are making any effort to introduce park and rides in suburbs and satellite towns but they have no control over what Irishrail does.


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  • #2292
    foggy_lad
    Closed Accounts Posts: 20,373 ✭✭✭✭foggy_lad


    yer man! wrote: »
    Exactly!
    1. Online ticketing needs to be introduced.
    2. Must be cheaper than the bus.
    3. Free parking if not already at all stations along route.
    4. Advertise a reasonable price on facebook/ billboards on the limerick to Galway route/ local papers/ twitter/ radio stations/ college newspapers!!! (17000 students in Nuig read this as its free)
    5. Really good student deals and combined rail and city bus tickets as most people need bus once in city.
    6. Must be able to be in Galway city before half 8 in the morning for commuters.
    7. Advertise tax saver tickets, some of these are a bargain.
    8. Skip stations where there are no ppl, eg. Ardrahan.
    9. Focus on commuter rail instead of intercity.
    10. If there was money the construction of proper bend befor limerick junction for trains going to cork would be good. One train could travel from cork to Galway and back again, this is horrible to travel on a bus and is expensive. Obviously this is a dream bit still this would bethe only way an intercity service could exist in my opinion.

    These ideas aren't perfect but they are relatively low cost and could make an impact. City council are making any effort to introduce park and rides in suburbs and satellite towns but they have no control over what Irishrail does.
    All those suggestions if implemented would increase passengeers from the average of 8 per train to maybe 10 per train but the reduction in revenue and increase in cost to the tax payer would be massive meaning the line would be losing even more than before. May as well introduce free travel on the line for a month and see how popular it is but that should have been done in January or February to give a true number without school breaks etc upsetting the figures.


  • #2293
    yer man!
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,653 ✭✭✭yer man!


    foggy_lad wrote: »
    All those suggestions if implemented would increase passengeers from the average of 8 per train to maybe 10 per train but the reduction in revenue and increase in cost to the tax payer would be massive meaning the line would be losing even more than before. May as well introduce free travel on the line for a month and see how popular it is but that should have been done in January or February to give a true number without school breaks etc upsetting the figures.
    Well currently they are doing absolutely nothing about attracting people.... And not every train has 8 people on boards, it's obvious if you see the train in the morning that it's much busier than lunch time trains which have nobody on them.


  • #2294
    corktina
    Closed Accounts Posts: 17,733 ✭✭✭✭corktina


    they are doing absolutley nothing to attract people to most of the other lines too.
    Wouldn't it make sense to promote the lines which have a chance of breaking even rather than this white elephant?

    We can't condone IE promoting this line just to make it more likely for WoT to say they were right all along. It has to make some sort of sense!


  • #2295
    trail man
    Registered Users Posts: 203 ✭✭trail man


    corktina wrote: »
    they are doing absolutley nothing to attract people to most of the other lines too.
    Wouldn't it make sense to promote the lines which have a chance of breaking even rather than this white elephant?

    We can't condone IE promoting this line just to make it more likely for WoT to say they were right all along. It has to make some sort of sense!


    One thing is sure IE is a disgrace...badly run fiasco...trying to deal with them
    in any shape or form..
    ask the greenway people in west limerick in what they had to deal with in trying to convert the old line.. IE are a law onto themsleves and should be disbanded..
    Heaven forbid if the rest of the line on the wrc is designated a greenway IE
    Will wash their hands of it and let the greenway people and the farmers Battle it out for years.. IT WOULD BE LIKE FRANK KELLYS famous song a christmas countdown ...IE ARE PATHETIC..


  • #2296
    MayoForSam
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,285 ✭✭✭MayoForSam


    Article on the front page of the Tuam Herald this week, abridged version is here: http://www.tuamherald.ie/2012/02/15/tuam-group-says-disused-railway-could-become-greenway/

    In the full article, a group of like-minded local enthusiasts have proposed converting the section between Tuam and Kilbannon Round Tower to a Greenway taking in local ecclesiastical and historical sites, including nature walks over 2 local rivers, promoting facilities for walking, running and cycling clubs, providing access to areas of botanical interest and pedestrian and bike access to local employers along the route.

    Quote from the article: "The Tuam Greenway Project are not opposed to the completion of the Western Rail Corridor if funding becomes available and in fact have highlighted the benefit of protecting the 'right-of-way' afforded by developing a Greenway on the route".

    In response, an 'anonymous' spokesman for West-on-Track does not agree "This idea is nothing more than short-term opportunism and extreme shortsightedness to say the least." He goes on to mention extending the WRC on to Claremorris and beyond, linking up with Knock Airport, yada, yada, yada.

    "Shortsightedness" - talk about the pot calling the kettle black :rolleyes:.

    I see this as a very promising development for north Co. Galway. Nine individuals are not afraid to be named as committee members on the Greenway group in the article. I have walked along sections of the old rail track mentioned and it is truly a great pity that the possibility of a Tuam Greenway has been overlooked so far. I drive north along the N17 from Tuam every single day and I cross the old rail line in a few places, it is becoming very decrepit and overgrown in spots at this stage.

    West-on-Track are very wary of the 'threat', the last quote in the article is "Proposing a greenway would jeopardise the whole concept of the western rail corridor and a North-South rail link".

    I think the fact that the whole country is in hock up to it's eyeballs jeopardises WOT a great deal more.

    Maybe this time local people-power might just make a difference.


  • #2297
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 5,121 ✭✭✭ [Deleted User]


    I was curious about where the Kilbannon round tower is so I looked it up on google maps and spotted:

    A woman walking her dog on the line

    The tower is to the right.


  • #2298
    corktina
    Closed Accounts Posts: 17,733 ✭✭✭✭corktina


    Deleted User wrote: »
    I was curious about where the Kilbannon round tower is so I looked it up on google maps and spotted:

    A woman walking her dog on the line

    The tower is to the right.

    oh for a handheld air horn :-)


  • #2299
    Transportuser09
    Registered Users Posts: 581 ✭✭✭Transportuser09


    While I think there may be some point in keeping the Tuam-Athenry section for potential rail use, I do not see how they see north of that as viable. They damage their cause when they suggest it is.


  • #2300
    westtip
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,282 ✭✭✭westtip


    MayoForSam wrote: »
    Article on the front page of the Tuam Herald this week, abridged version is here: http://www.tuamherald.ie/2012/02/15/tuam-group-says-disused-railway-could-become-greenway/

    In the full article, a group of like-minded local enthusiasts have proposed converting the section between Tuam and Kilbannon Round Tower to a Greenway taking in local ecclesiastical and historical sites, including nature walks over 2 local rivers, promoting facilities for walking, running and cycling clubs, providing access to areas of botanical interest and pedestrian and bike access to local employers along the route.

    Quote from the article: "The Tuam Greenway Project are not opposed to the completion of the Western Rail Corridor if funding becomes available and in fact have highlighted the benefit of protecting the 'right-of-way' afforded by developing a Greenway on the route".

    In response, an 'anonymous' spokesman for West-on-Track does not agree "This idea is nothing more than short-term opportunism and extreme shortsightedness to say the least." He goes on to mention extending the WRC on to Claremorris and beyond, linking up with Knock Airport, yada, yada, yada.

    "Shortsightedness" - talk about the pot calling the kettle black :rolleyes:.

    I see this as a very promising development for north Co. Galway. Nine individuals are not afraid to be named as committee members on the Greenway group in the article. I have walked along sections of the old rail track mentioned and it is truly a great pity that the possibility of a Tuam Greenway has been overlooked so far. I drive north along the N17 from Tuam every single day and I cross the old rail line in a few places, it is becoming very decrepit and overgrown in spots at this stage.

    West-on-Track are very wary of the 'threat', the last quote in the article is "Proposing a greenway would jeopardise the whole concept of the western rail corridor and a North-South rail link".

    I think the fact that the whole country is in hock up to it's eyeballs jeopardises WOT a great deal more.

    Maybe this time local people-power might just make a difference.

    This is brilliant news to read and has nothing to do with the sligomayo greenway campaign. But it shows the idea is gathering pace.

    No doubt many of you read the piece in the Irish Times as well last Saturday:

    http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/travel/2012/0218/1224311879321.html

    the best quote from this article which was about the Great Western Greenway was:
    So, after all this work by the community and Mayo Co Council, Fáilte Ireland and the Department of Transport, Tourism and Sport was it worth it? Hell yes! Up to 80,000 people will use it in its first year, spending around €7 million in the local economy. Already, nearly 47 per cent of businesses indicate that the Greenway has led to increased business and 38 new jobs have been created, with a further 56 existing jobs sustained.

    As I have always said in terms of the economy for the west its a no brainer.


  • #2301
    trail man
    Registered Users Posts: 203 ✭✭trail man


    we are now playing catch up with the rest of europe as far as greenways are concerned....The tourists will return to ireland if given the right reasons...
    they want to walk/cycle in the day time and dine at night....
    comely maidens dancing at the crossroads and people on donkey carts as a perspective of ireland no longer cuts the mustard...
    we must get with the programme/wise up and get real
    if we are to compete again on the world tourism stage....
    ITS A CASE OF GREENWAYS OR NOOOOOOOOO WAY.....:D....


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