Household Charge Mega-Thread [Part 2] Poll Reset

apache6 · 01-04-2012 12:20am

emo72 wrote: »

I remember hearing about this at the time but didn't follow up on it. It is extraordinary and for those who think we live in a democracy, well, you do as long as you do as your told.

emo, yes it's true but well they don't want to trouble us simple folk with anything quite so mundane as Truth.

The IMF suggested we should scald/burn bond holders but the US government played hardball, something our government hadn't the courage to do.
It was like a high stakes poker game where our boys couldn't look their opponent in the eye - so we lost hands down. Then again we did pay advisors 25 Million and they advised against the blanket guarantee and we ignored their advice too.

alastair · 01-04-2012 12:22am

emo72 wrote: »

Think he is suggesting, the point that you are arguing in defence of the tax, therefore you are doing well under the current regime.

I don't believe I know Mr Crab, so I'm pretty sure he doesn't know how well I'm doing or otherwise. Wasn't Che a fan of property taxes in any case?

Bishop_Donal · 01-04-2012 12:23am

apache6 wrote: »

You can't sell property anyway, have you been under a rock - the economy is in freefall - 6 six years of falling domestic economy, a new EU record.

Think you are missing the point, but it"s all academic now anyway.

You can amend the slogan now to:

Don't register; Don't Pay; Don't sell; Don't worry about the penalty you're incurring until you are forced to pay it!!

In the end of the day you are doing a bit extra for the country by paying the penalty, so even when you are given the extra bit of latitude, please don't avail of it!!! Do your bit for the country > pay the higher charge.

emo72 · 01-04-2012 12:27am

apache6 wrote: »

emo, yes it's true but well they don't want to trouble us simple folk with anything quite so mundane as Truth.

The IMF suggested we should scald/burn bond holders but the US government played hardball, something our government hadn't the courage to do.
It was like a high stakes poker game where our boys couldn't look their opponent in the eye - so we lost hands down. Then again we did pay advisors 25 Million and they advised against the blanket guarantee and we ignored their advice too.

I know its horrible. The civil servants and politicians had nothing to lose. They knew their pensions and jobs were safe. They signed us up for it instead. Absolutely morally corrupt bastards. Hope they rot in hell.

phil1nj · 01-04-2012 12:27am

alastair wrote: »

..... and find something of mine in this thread that actually involves hypocrisy? .

Post #7366 from the 1st half of this thread:

alastair: I'll say pay your damn taxes - there's the actual principle.

Post #7708:

And as the poll tax. I was there and refused to pay

Definition of HYPOCRITE

1
: a person who puts on a false appearance of virtue or religion
2
: a person who acts in contradiction to his or her stated beliefs or feelings

apache6 · 01-04-2012 12:27am

alastair wrote: »

I don't believe I know Mr Crab, so I'm pretty sure he doesn't know how well I'm doing or otherwise. Wasn't Che a fan of property taxes in any case?

Funny you should mention Che;

The US House of Representatives Committee on Foreign Affairs has written to the Taoiseach telling him to stop Galway City Council erecting a statue in Eyre Square to South American revolutionary Che Guevara.

So, Sorry people of Democratic Galway - the Yanks have decided for you - that's Democracy Folks - have a nice day.

The Crab · 01-04-2012 12:28am

This tax is purely regressive. It taxes people purely on what property they own, not on what they actually bring in. So a millionaire who chooses to live in a one bedroomed terraced house because that's where he grew up is taxed proportionally less than someone who owns a three bedroomed semi because they have two children and want to have a bit of space to let them play yet works his bollocks off to pay for it. It is utter nonsense.

What it is seeking to do is put the lower income earners in a certain type of housing, i.e. rented, that pays into the hands of the rich who can afford to own more than one house and so can be a landlord. There is nothing about any Fianna Fail or Fine Gael government that is aimed at anything else. They are notoriously right wing and want the status quo maintained.

And if you're stupid enough to believe that a country that (a)charges the Earth for fifth rate healthcare; (b)doesn't provide free education even to children (don't give me claptrap that schools are free, books which are free in the UK aren't here, and everyone knows every school demands a "contribution"; (c)charges call out rates for its emergency services; needs money for its "local services" then you deserve what you get.

This charge suits those that are able to afford it because it charges everyone at the same rate, rich or poor.

If you're rich you pay more, simple as, or it should be.

Bishop_Donal · 01-04-2012 12:34am

The Crab wrote: »

This tax is purely regressive. It taxes people purely on what property they own, not on what they actually bring in. So a millionaire who chooses to live in a one bedroomed terraced house because that's where he grew up is taxed proportionally less than someone who owns a three bedroomed semi because they have two children and want to have a bit of space to let them play yet works his bollocks off to pay for it. It is utter nonsense.

What it is seeking to do is put the lower income earners in a certain type of housing, i.e. rented, that pays into the hands of the rich who can afford to own more than one house and so can be a landlord. There is nothing about any Fianna Fail or Fine Gael government that is aimed at anything else. They are notoriously right wing and want the status quo maintained.

And if you're stupid enough to believe that a country that (a)charges the Earth for fifth rate healthcare; (b)doesn't provide free education even to children (don't give me claptrap that schools are free, books which are free in the UK aren't here, and everyone knows every school demands a "contribution"; (c)charges call out rates for its emergency services; needs money for its "local services" then you deserve what you get.

This charge suits those that are able to afford it because it charges everyone at the same rate, rich or poor.

If you're rich you pay more, simple as, or it should be.

and you'd prefer to continue the policy of increasing the marginal tax rate on higher earners to ensure you push them out of the country so that everyone else can ultimately suffer higher average charges.

Unfortunately, I think your mindset will actually win this battle. Doesn't make a very pretty picture for the future of Ireland.

The Crab · 01-04-2012 12:34am

alastair wrote: »

I don't believe I know Mr Crab, so I'm pretty sure he doesn't know how well I'm doing or otherwise. Wasn't Che a fan of property taxes in any case?

Under completely different circumstances. How many poor of South America do you think have the means to buy their own homes. As I said, if you're rich you pay more. In South America if you own you're own home you pay property tax. Why? Because you have the money to do so. In Europe we're a little more fortunate. Many people can own their own homes, or at least aspire to. It doesn't mean that some walloping great tax that comes along demanding them to pay purely for living should deny them that opportunity. And don't be daft... no-one who was remotely other than right-wing would argue for this tax. Where do you think the money will go in the end? To pay for the fairies dancing in the garden? 800,000 households paid? AIB and Bank of Ireland just got 40,000,000 richer each.

The Crab · 01-04-2012 12:37am

Bishop_Donal wrote: »

and you'd prefer to continue the policy of increasing the marginal tax rate on higher earners to ensure you push them out of the country so that everyone else can ultimately suffer higher average charges.

Unfortunately, I think your mindset will actually win this battle. Doesn't make a very pretty picture for the future of Ireland.

Am I in favour of taxing the richer more harshly than the poor? Absolutely.

I suppose you're in favour of cardboard boxes being handed out to anyone who hasn't made it into the elite.

And don't forget, with the right style of government there are (a)ways of preventing people leaving and (b)getting the wealth off the rich without too much effort.

dvpower · 01-04-2012 12:39am

apache6 wrote: »

Funny you should mention Che;

The US House of Representatives Committee on Foreign Affairs has written to the Taoiseach telling him to stop Galway City Council erecting a statue in Eyre Square to South American revolutionary Che Guevara.

So, Sorry people of Democratic Galway - the Yanks have decided for you - that's Democracy Folks - have a nice day.

You live in a scary place - a scary imaginary place.

The Crab · 01-04-2012 12:40am

At the end of the day, after all the propaganda put out by the capitalist governments against Communist systems I haven't seen too many cardboard boxes laid out in photos of Moscow, Berlin, Prague.

Unlike Dublin, London, New York...

Bullseye1 · 01-04-2012 12:42am

The Crab wrote: »

At the end of the day, after all the propaganda put out by the capitalist governments against Communist systems I haven't seen too many cardboard boxes laid out in photos of Moscow, Berlin, Prague.

Unlike Dublin, London, New York...

You should visit Byrant Avenue in the Bronx. It's like Calcutta.

The Crab · 01-04-2012 12:43am

Bishop_Donal wrote: »

and you'd prefer to continue the policy of increasing the marginal tax rate on higher earners to ensure you push them out of the country so that everyone else can ultimately suffer higher average charges.

Unfortunately, I think your mindset will actually win this battle. Doesn't make a very pretty picture for the future of Ireland.

And continuing what policy exactly, I haven't seen one policy that taxes the rich more heavily than they were ever taxed, which is and always has been at practically zero percent of their earnings. 40%? Joke. Anything over 60,000 should be taxed at 95%, simple as. Can you pay for shelter of 60,000? Yes. Can you pay for heat? Yes. Can you pay for food? Yes. Ok, you want the rest. Why?

apache6 · 01-04-2012 12:43am

dvpower wrote: »

You live in a scary place - a scary imaginary place.

I do it's very scary with Fascism getting closer every day - it's called Ireland, soon to become the first member of the new EU second division - peripheral countries that can't manage themselves and have spineless politicians and some very compliant people. New Colonialism Frankfurt style.
as Green Tea said - twinned with Nigeria - the most corrupt country in Africa - how appropriate.

The Crab · 01-04-2012 12:48am

Bullseye1 wrote: »

You should visit Byrant Avenue in the Bronx. It's like Calcutta.

Exactly. I'm not advocating the Stasi for a police force. Naturally I'm not. But all we're ever told about East Germany is how the Stasi were evil this and evil that. Of course, absolutely true. But I do doubt the validity of the extent that is talked about here. Since when did a rival system get good press in its enemy territory?

But then nothing is ever mentioned about how the East Germans enjoyed one of the world's premier health systems FOR FREE. How everyone had a right to a job. How the old and the young were primary concerns.

In capitalist countries you are one thing or another. Rich or scum. If you're rich you have all the freedoms you want, if you are poor you are trampled on. Better a system that looks after everyone than a system that looks after 1%.

And strange how ostalgie is a big phenomenon in the former East Germany. Yet I doubt its even ever been referred to outside that area.

The truth is Communism had its problems, but capitalism has bigger ones. A reformed version of Communism is a way forward. Capitalism has already betrayed 99% of people.

Bruthal · 01-04-2012 12:48am

alastair wrote: »

Eh? You're the one who tried to pretend that motor tax wasn't a tax on car ownership - because you can keep the car in the garden without taxing it! If that's the best you can drum up, you deserve ridicule.

Well due to a serious injury, i cant drive the car for the last 3 months. I still own it. No tax legally has to be paid. So there is no ownership tax on a car. Ridicule that if you must. But thats a fact. You could always show me the link for car ownership tax though?

As for ridicule? Remember your grammar nazism. I thought your "final analysis" phrase was about to become "final solution".

Why don't you toddle off and find something of mine in this thread that actually involves hypocrisy? Because you'll be wasting your time. I was quite clear on the reasons for supporting this tax, and opposing the poll tax - and if you can't get your head around that - not really my problem.

You oppose the poll tax, and avoided paying it, but tell people here they must pay this tax, and anyone that suggests its unfair is wrong. Thats hypocracy.

Bruthal · 01-04-2012 12:52am

phil1nj wrote: »

Post #7366 from the 1st half of this thread:

alastair: I'll say pay your damn taxes - there's the actual principle.

Post #7708:

And as the poll tax. I was there and refused to pay

Definition of HYPOCRITE

1
: a person who puts on a false appearance of virtue or religion
2
: a person who acts in contradiction to his or her stated beliefs or feelings

He is badly caught out, but his arrogance and self righteousness cant accept it.

dvpower · 01-04-2012 12:53am

apache6 wrote: »

I do it's very scary with Fascism getting closer every day - it's called Ireland, soon to become the first member of the new EU second division - peripheral countries that can't manage themselves and have spineless politicians and some very compliant people. New Colonialism Frankfurt style.
as Green Tea said - twinned with Nigeria - the most corrupt country in Africa - how appropriate.

You're getting your politics from a satirical radio programme - figures.

hondasam · 01-04-2012 12:54am

Are we still talking about the Irish household charge?

Bruthal · 01-04-2012 12:55am

hondasam wrote: »

Are we still talking about the Irish household charge?

No, alastairs avoidance of paying the poll tax in england before. He is a good laugh.

hondasam · 01-04-2012 12:56am

robbie7730 wrote: »

No, alastairs avoidance of paying the poll tax in england before. He is a good laugh.

Yes well it's one rule for alastair and another for the rest of us.

Noreen1 · 01-04-2012 12:57am

Some up to date info.

http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/breaking/2012/0331/breaking1.html

Almost 800,000 properties had been registered for the household charge by 11pm bringing to almost half the proportion of property owners who have paid.
According to a statement from the Local Government Management Agency the charge has raised €61.5 million to date.
Included in the 798,957 households deemed to have paid are 12,677 properties registered for waivers and 89,000 postal applications which have yet to be processed.

Says it all really. Among those deemed to have paid are 12,677 registered for waivers, and 89,000 not yet processed, hence no-one has any idea how many of them will be registered for waivers.

61.5 million is 615,000 people who have paid by 00.02 this morning - with a further 89,000, a percentage of whom will be exempt - and it's anyones guess how many.

Either way, 615,000 who have paid by the deadline does not equal 798,957. Proof, if it were needed, that the compliance rates have been exaggerated by the "Yes" camp.

From an international perspective:

http://www.bostonherald.com/business/general/view.bg?articleid=1061121264&srvc=business&position=recent

DUBLIN — Debt-mired Ireland is facing a revolt over its new property tax.
The government said less than half of the country’s 1.6 million households paid the charge by Saturday’s deadline to avoid penalties. And about 5,000 marched in protest against the annual conference of Prime Minister Enda Kenny’s Fine Gael party.

It would appear that the Americans do not view the imposition of the charge as a roaring success............

Bruthal · 01-04-2012 12:57am

hondasam wrote: »

Yes well it's one rule for alastair and another for the rest of us.

It would seem so alright.

apache6 · 01-04-2012 12:57am

dv

Oh Oh, you really are a sad case - that's entertainment

The Crab · 01-04-2012 12:58am

When this country provides

(a)free medical care
(b)free education
(c)free call outs for emergency services
(d)proper mains water and sewage services
(e)a public transport service that is affordable not exorbitant

Then, and only then, will I think about paying a tax on where I live. In the present system I'd rather go to jail first.

tim9002 · 01-04-2012 1:01am

The Crab wrote: »

When this country provides

(a)free medical care
(b)free education
(c)free call outs for emergency services
(d)proper mains water and sewage services
(e)a public transport service that is affordable not exorbitant

Then, and only then, will I think about paying a tax on where I live. In the present system I'd rather go to jail first.

The country is never going to be able to provide those things FOC when it has to borrow about 12 billion this year to pay for existing service levels. The place you speak of above is yet to be invented!

dxhound2005 · 01-04-2012 1:04am

apache6 wrote: »

Funny you should mention Che;

The US House of Representatives Committee on Foreign Affairs has written to the Taoiseach telling him to stop Galway City Council erecting a statue in Eyre Square to South American revolutionary Che Guevara.

So, Sorry people of Democratic Galway - the Yanks have decided for you - that's Democracy Folks - have a nice day.

That item was wrongly reported in The Examiner. The chair of the committee Ileana Ros-Lehtinen wrote in a personal capacity to the Taoiseach. There is no report of the committee having discussed the issue never mind taken a position on it.

alastair · 01-04-2012 1:06am

phil1nj wrote: »

Post #7366 from the 1st half of this thread:

alastair: I'll say pay your damn taxes - there's the actual principle.

Post #7708:

And as the poll tax. I was there and refused to pay

Definition of HYPOCRITE

1
: a person who puts on a false appearance of virtue or religion
2
: a person who acts in contradiction to his or her stated beliefs or feelings

Heh, talk about cherrypicking. Some context:

Quote:

Originally Posted by hondasam View Post
You never answered this question.
It's a matter of principle now, I can afford to pay but I won't.
If next year they say to you Alastair we need more tax, you will be paying €900 property tax what will you say?

I'll say pay your damn taxes - there's the actual principle. What's the septic tank registration anyway? Tuppence halfpenny.

Next!

The Crab · 01-04-2012 1:08am

tim9002 wrote: »

The country is never going to able to afford those things FOC when it has to borrow about 12 billion this year to pay for existing service levels. The place you speak of above is yet to be invented!

(a)Free medical care - the United Kingdom has it.
(b)Free education (I'm talking about kids here) - the United Kingdom has it, Ireland doesn't.
(c)Free call outs for emergency services - the United Kingdom has them.
(d)Proper mains water and sewage systems - the United Kingdom has them.
(e)A public transport system that is affordable not exorbitant - the United Kingdom has it.

And don't gob off about the council tax there being higher than the household charge here. The council tax pays for services, not bull**** like the household charge. Street lighting. What loonybin thinks the council pay for street lighting. Its included in your ESB bill in the standard charge. Don't be so dull that you think that's for paper work.

The UK system is corrupt, and the taxes on the poor are way too high, whilst the rich get off scot free like here. Its in need of radical reform, like I've suggested should happen here. But at least they have public services.

apache6 · 01-04-2012 1:08am

dxhound2005 wrote: »

That item was wrongly reported in The Examiner. The chair of the committee Ileana Ros-Lehtinen wrote in a personal capacity to the Taoiseach. There is no report of the committee having discussed the issue never mind taken a position on it.

i think you are missing the point, who can we believe anymore

alastair · 01-04-2012 1:09am

The Crab wrote: »

Under completely different circumstances. How many poor of South America do you think have the means to buy their own homes. As I said, if you're rich you pay more. In South America if you own you're own home you pay property tax. Why? Because you have the money to do so. In Europe we're a little more fortunate. Many people can own their own homes, or at least aspire to. It doesn't mean that some walloping great tax that comes along demanding them to pay purely for living should deny them that opportunity. And don't be daft... no-one who was remotely other than right-wing would argue for this tax. Where do you think the money will go in the end? To pay for the fairies dancing in the garden? 800,000 households paid? AIB and Bank of Ireland just got 40,000,000 richer each.

Or (as it's specified in the act) Local services?

hondasam · 01-04-2012 1:10am

alastair wrote: »

Next!

Hey you talking to me??

The Crab · 01-04-2012 1:11am

alastair wrote: »

Or (as it's specified in the act) Local services?

Are you that much of a moron that you actually believe what's written in government acts?

Bullseye1 · 01-04-2012 1:12am

hondasam wrote: »

Hey you talking to me??

To himself. Everyone else has given up.

ArmaniJeanss · 01-04-2012 1:13am

apache6 wrote: »

i think you are missing the point, who can we believe anymore

Not your made up stories anyway.

Bruthal · 01-04-2012 1:13am

Bullseye1 wrote: »

To himself. Everyone else has given up.

Except me:D

dvpower · 01-04-2012 1:16am

The Crab wrote: »

Are you that much of a moron that you actually believe what's written in government acts?

Oh ffs - the late shift is on. :rolleyes:

Bullseye1 · 01-04-2012 1:21am

robbie7730 wrote: »

Except me:D

I'll leave you to it. If off to bed.

phil1nj · 01-04-2012 1:22am

alastair wrote: »

Heh, talk about cherrypicking. Some context:

Next!

I didn't cherry pick anything chief. You asked for clarity around another poster accusing you of hypocrisy (something I also did for exactly the same reason).

I provided that clarity using your own posts. You clearly don't subscribe to your own stated beliefs (you after all didn't pay the poll tax). You sir (as well as being a wind up merchant) are a hypocrite by definition. Context doesn't really come in to it I'm afraid.

Bruthal · 01-04-2012 1:22am

Bullseye1 wrote: »

I'll leave you to it. If off to bed.

il give up myself now.

Bruthal · 01-04-2012 1:24am

phil1nj wrote: »

I didn't cherry pick anything chief. You asked for clarity around another poster accusing you of hypocrisy (something I also did for exactly the same reason).

I provided that clarity using your own posts. You clearly don't subscribe to your own stated beliefs (you after all didn't pay the poll tax). You sir (as well as being a wind up merchant) are a hypocrite by definition. Context doesn't really come in to it I'm afraid.

I hope you punctuated that perfectly, for if you didnt, then the post is null and void:)

uch · 01-04-2012 1:26am

I bought cake instead, it's nicer

phil1nj · 01-04-2012 1:29am

robbie7730 wrote: »

I hope you punctuated that perfectly, for if you didnt, then the post is null and void:)

In my defence it's late and I'm just about ready to quit following this thread. There's only so much condescension and bitterness a (casual) follower like myself can take. Split it over 2 threads and it comes down to a question of stamina

Bruthal · 01-04-2012 1:32am

phil1nj wrote: »

In my defence it's late and I'm just about ready to quit following this thread. There's only so much condescension and bitterness a (casual) follower like myself can take. Split it over 2 threads and it comes down to a question of stamina

Well, our spelling mistakes were used against us here recently, as if it invalidated points made:D

alastair · 01-04-2012 1:36am

robbie7730 wrote: »

You oppose the poll tax, and avoided paying it, but tell people here they must pay this tax, and anyone that suggests its unfair is wrong. Thats hypocracy.

'Hypocrisy'? No it's not. It's called using your critical faculties. One tax was unfair, the other, not.

alastair · 01-04-2012 1:40am

phil1nj wrote: »

I didn't cherry pick anything chief. You asked for clarity around another poster accusing you of hypocrisy (something I also did for exactly the same reason).

I provided that clarity using your own posts. You clearly don't subscribe to your own stated beliefs (you after all didn't pay the poll tax). You sir (as well as being a wind up merchant) are a hypocrite by definition. Context doesn't really come in to it I'm afraid.

I'm afraid it does - try reading the entire post again.

mikom · 01-04-2012 1:42am

alastair wrote: »

'Hypocrisy'? No it's not. It's called using your critical faculties. One tax was unfair, the other, not.

imo.

Ride the snake, ride the snake
To the lake, the ancient lake, baby
The snake is long, seven miles
Ride the snake...he's old, and his skin is cold

D1stant · 01-04-2012 1:43am

hondasam wrote: »

This is the first time ever in AH a thread has reached 10000 posts. That's amazing. Should we do something to celebrate?

Do I get some kind of award for starting this thread. 100E or something?

alastair · 01-04-2012 1:48am

Noreen1 wrote: »

61.5 million is 615,000 people who have paid by 00.02 this morning - with a further 89,000, a percentage of whom will be exempt - and it's anyones guess how many.

Either way, 615,000 who have paid by the deadline does not equal 798,957. Proof, if it were needed, that the compliance rates have been exaggerated by the "Yes" camp.

You think? Could equally be that they don't count cheques that haven't cleared yet. I doubt that there's a a cunning plan by the 'yes camp' to bump up figures, while forgetting elementary maths.

Household Charge Mega-Thread [Part 2] *Poll Reset*

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Household Charge Mega-Thread [Part 2] Poll Reset