How to revive the Irish language.

Ms.M · 07-05-2012 3:20pm

LordSutch wrote: »

But surely if Irish is compulsory in school then the aim is to get everybody to speak Irish? Yes? Possibly in the same way as the Danes speak Danish, or the Norwegians speak Norwegian? And if its not the aim to get everybody speaking Irish en masse, then what is the aim of the Irish language lobby? and I ask this genuinely, and with the backdrop of mandatory Irish in school.

I know I should know better than argue a point I've already made and been ignored on.
(I'll agree with another poster, we DO NOT need another Irish language thread)
But, with respect the anti-Irish campaigners are worse culprits than me so.....

Irish is given equal status with English because of the Equal Status Act.
The Equal Status Act is based on the idea that a person born in the Gaeltacht, a person raised in an Irish-speaking family or any Irish-speaker is entitled to the same rights as an English-speaking Irish person. Included is a recognition that their culture is just as valid as English-speaking culture is.

It is based on a principle of equality. Not based on a belief that "Irish is as important as English to the majority of Irish people" or "Irish should be our first language."

Furthermore, the Irish language is not an abstract thing. You can't belittle it and pretend you are not belittling the people for whom it is their culture and not a "dead" thing. I'm sure there is a rule against making bigoted comments. Some of these posters should be banned.
(not talking about you Lord Sutch)

.... Just read the OP's post. In the spirit of equality I wouldn't agree with that "Kinda thing."

How does a joke thread always descend into seriousness? Bah!

Iwasfrozen · 07-05-2012 6:26pm

Ms.M wrote: »

Furthermore, the Irish language is not an abstract thing. You can't belittle it and pretend you are not belittling the people for whom it is their culture and not a "dead" thing. I'm sure there is a rule against making bigoted comments. Some of these posters should be banned.
(not talking about you Lord Sutch)

Just on this bit there's no rules again attacking a persons beliefs or ideology as long as you don't attack the person. For example I can say "communism is stupid" (which it is but different thread) or "communists are stupid because they follow communism" but I can't say personally to a communist "you are stupid." That's the important difference here. Everyone is perfectly entitled to hold an opinion different to yours.

Now back on topic, Irish will never see a revival so if we could all stop wasting money during a huge recession chasing the pipe dream it would be nice.

Ms.M · 07-05-2012 6:33pm

Nope, you still ignored the point of my post.
It is a waste of money if you think "equality is stupid".
Fair enough. I can say "I think people who think equality is stupid are stupid".
This is fun.

Oh and by the way "I feckin hate ___________ (insert any language), sure why don't we all live in a cabin in the Wesht and go back to the Middle ages."
"I'm sick of listening to people who speak ____________ (insert any language) what with their stuck-up elitist ways and ill-taste in children's names."
"I also hate ___________ (insert any language) and I think we should kill it."

Put in French and you're saying I'm not making any bigoted statements about French people?

You are reducing identity to ideology I'm afraid. NOT THE SAME!

Iwasfrozen · 07-05-2012 7:55pm

Ms.M wrote: »

Nope, you still ignored the point of my post.
It is a waste of money if you think "equality is stupid".
Fair enough. I can say "I think people who think equality is stupid are stupid".
This is fun.

Are you serious? Do you really think this is an equality issue? There are no no monoglot irish speakers so the need for providing services through irish is rendered obsolete. Removing or not providing said redundent services is not discrimination, it's a strategic realignment of state resources during a period of austerity for the good of the people as a whole. Not a stubborn minority who are perfectly capable of communicating with the government through it's chosen language but refuse to do so and expect the majority to pay for this duplication of services that they demand. That's the mindset that you're proposing/defending.

Ms.M wrote: »

Oh and by the way "I feckin hate ___________ (insert any language), sure why don't we all live in a cabin in the Wesht and go back to the Middle ages."
"I'm sick of listening to people who speak ____________ (insert any language) what with their stuck-up elitist ways and ill-taste in children's names."
"I also hate ___________ (insert any language) and I think we should kill it."

Put in French and you're saying I'm not making any bigoted statements about French people?

You are reducing identity to ideology I'm afraid. NOT THE SAME!

Nice try but attacking a movement to have the government spend money on promoting the french language is not the same thing as attackng the french people.

Out of interest what do you think of David Mitchell's views on gaelic here? Because that's basically all we're saying in regards to irish.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OvlQXPNwrqo

Wibbs · 07-05-2012 9:46pm

Ms.M wrote: »

Put in French and you're saying I'm not making any bigoted statements about French people?

OK Take your French example. 99.splat per cent of French people are fully fluent in French. It's their first language, the language of everyday communication. Barring some mental incapacity a French person who wasn't fluent in French would be a very rare thing. It is a massive part of who they are. If you wanted to move to France you would require French. Simple as that. The languages name describes it's cultural importance in concrete terms. Irish does not. In concrete terms the language is a pretty small part of being Irish. Same word, not the same cultural and practical importance. Not by a long shot.

So on your point about bigoted statements, inserting French into your example, would be pretty daft, never mind bringing "bigoted" into it. It doesn't require anyone to go off to the wilds of the Dordogne to speak it. It's the language of the simple through to the sophisticated. Elitist draws a blank too. From the "proles" to the "bourgeois" they identify themselves in French. Killing French? Good luck with that.

Watching David Mitchell's piece, I wonder does the figure of 60,000 fluent speakers of Scot's Gaelic bear any scrutiny(I doubt it)? If it does, then Scots Gaelic is apparently in a healthier state than Irish.

Vested interests are usually worrying. With Irish, it's all too often those with a financial stake in the concept, then those with a political stake, then those with a cultural hobby stake, then those "Oirish" Gombeen men make an appearance. A gombeen man like E O'Cuiv would encapsulate most of that lot. It seems to be rare enough the native speakers are heard in the mix.

GaryIrv93 · 08-05-2012 12:27am

The language doesn't need to be revived - we're already speaking English and we're doing just fine keeping it that way. The amount of problems that would be faced trying to bring Irish up to where English is right now simply isin't worth it. A language is a language, and they don't exist for so called ''cultural heritage'' or ''honoring and respecting our ancestors'' or for any other mad reason. Languages exist for communication.

It'll be kept alive as long as there's people that have an interest and love for the language trying to keep it alive. What's killing it is it's forced compulsion in schools and it's teaching methods that just don't work, but it's kept like that anyway. With the way it's taught, and how it's compulsory, it's very unlikely that there'll be a big rise in everyday speakers.

mrkiscool2 · 08-05-2012 12:34am

Ms.M wrote: »

How does a joke thread always descend into seriousness? Bah!

Because, sometimes, there are people actually that stupid as to say something like what the op said! Simply as! Also, what if it isn't a joke thread? Then you'll be sorry!!

But no, in all seriousness, there is an easy solution to the problem raised (even if it was a joke post) Teach it better at Primary School, and make it non-compulsory at Leaving Cert! The problem is you go from learning simple verbs and phrases in primary school to doing poetry and serious essay's in Junior Cert and then plays poetry and serious essays in Leaving Cert! There is less of a workload in English at Leaving Cert than Higher-Level Irish!

LordSutch · 08-05-2012 8:16am

That David Mitchell clip is brilliant, its not anti Scots gaelic, but it is respectful and realistic towards the language and the speaking of. Too often here in Ireland, defenders of the compulsory nature of the Irish language will jump on you straight away if you dare to make similar comments/ suggestions about it 'the Irish language' which I also think should be loved and cherished, but not force fed to all ages and in every Irish school.

The Irish language should be cherished and kept alive, but it should not be a mandatory subject foir all kids in all schools IMO. I also think the key to reviving Irish is to take out that compulsory teaching, which lets face it, just hasn't worked since it was introduced eight decades ago.

Ms.M · 08-05-2012 5:21pm

Wibbs wrote: »

OK Take your French example. 99.splat per cent of French people are fully fluent in French. It's their first language, the language of everyday communication. Barring some mental incapacity a French person who wasn't fluent in French would be a very rare thing. It is a massive part of who they are. If you wanted to move to France you would require French. Simple as that. The languages name describes it's cultural importance in concrete terms. Irish does not. In concrete terms the language is a pretty small part of being Irish. Same word, not the same cultural and practical importance. Not by a long shot.

Again, same argument Wibbs. Irish language is just as important to my identity as an Irish person as French is to a French person. It is the main part. Fine if you don't consider it part of yours. Culturally, we differ. I respect your culture. I don't share it. Why can't you respect mine?

You can't make the statement "the language is a pretty small part of being Irish." Just like I can't say "People who don't speak Irish are less Irish than me." There are very different ideas of what Irishness is. Making vast generalisations just proves my point about the arguments made in this foram.

So on your point about bigoted statements, inserting French into your example, would be pretty daft, never mind bringing "bigoted" into it. It doesn't require anyone to go off to the wilds of the Dordogne to speak it. It's the language of the simple through to the sophisticated. Elitist draws a blank too. From the "proles" to the "bourgeois" they identify themselves in French. Killing French? Good luck with that.

Watching David Mitchell's piece, I wonder does the figure of 60,000 fluent speakers of Scot's Gaelic bear any scrutiny(I doubt it)? If it does, then Scots Gaelic is apparently in a healthier state than Irish.

No, Scots Gaelic is not in a healthier state than Irish. Though I hope it makes a revival and believe it will.

Vested interests are usually worrying. With Irish, it's all too often those with a financial stake in the concept, then those with a political stake, then those with a cultural hobby stake, then those "Oirish" Gombeen men make an appearance. A gombeen man like E O'Cuiv would encapsulate most of that lot. It seems to be rare enough the native speakers are heard in the mix.

Ok so. Irish can be reduced to a "cultural hobby"apparently. Lovely. I detect no bigotry there. Sure we all hate "that lot." You're Irish, I'm Oirish, thank you for educating me. I guess you're just culturally superior to me. I think this is the jist of most of the arguments on this Wibbs so I don't mean to criticise you personally. You referred in another foram to growing up in Dublin and seeing Irish as being for culchies etc. I grew up in working class Dublin and my experience was similar. Your comments reflect an aspect of Irish culture that I do not like and don't buy into. My culture is just as valid as yours. Accept this or state "I believe my culture is more important than yours". Stop making pseudo-points.

E O'Cuiv is a native speaker.

yawha · 08-05-2012 5:35pm

Ms.M wrote: »

Irish is given equal status with English because of the Equal Status Act.
The Equal Status Act is based on the idea that a person born in the Gaeltacht, a person raised in an Irish-speaking family or any Irish-speaker is entitled to the same rights as an English-speaking Irish person. Included is a recognition that their culture is just as valid as English-speaking culture is.

What about people who speak French or German or Polish? Why aren't those languages considered equal?

Ms.M · 08-05-2012 5:44pm

Iwasfrozen wrote: »

Are you serious? Do you really think this is an equality issue? There are no no monoglot irish speakers so the need for providing services through irish is rendered obsolete. Removing or not providing said redundent services is not discrimination, it's a strategic realignment of state resources during a period of austerity for the good of the people as a whole. Not a stubborn minority who are perfectly capable of communicating with the government through it's chosen language but refuse to do so and expect the majority to pay for this duplication of services that they demand. That's the mindset that you're proposing/defending.

Nice try but attacking a movement to have the government spend money on promoting the french language is not the same thing as attackng the french people.

Out of interest what do you think of David Mitchell's views on gaelic here? Because that's basically all we're saying in regards to irish.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OvlQXPNwrqo

Yes I most definitely think it is an equality issue. There are plenty of Irish speakers who are less able to communicate in English. Especially in regards to low frequency words. You may be overestimating the cost of duplicating documents. The documents that are duplicated would be sent to Gaeltacht homes in English but are instead sent in Irish. People's imagination's have got the better of them in this case. It's not very expensive. The amount spent on English "monoglots" far outweights that spent on Irish-speakers even when you take into account the lesser percentage of Irish-speakers. So Irish-speakers pay OVER their fair share for documents produced in English; why shouldn't they be allowed documents in Irish?

And with respect, I don't think your comments are bigoted. (I'm not going to re-read all your posts though!) Some of the arguments made are certainly offensive. I didn't say yours were.

aaronjumper · 08-05-2012 5:47pm

Prisons are already struggling, now you want to throw the large number of people that would fail your test in with the thieves murderers and rapists?

Sense. Your post makes none.

That said I would like to be able to insult people I am sitting or standing near without them knowing.

Interest in History · 08-05-2012 5:47pm

conor.hogan.2 wrote: »

...What Irish language lobby? We do not meet on wednesdays in cú na irishnagon....

Irish is maintained through state action because the elected officials sense that it is part of their patriotic accreditation for being members of the Dail or Senate. This is in synch with the fact that within living memory a quarter of the members have been from the educational scene: teachers & lecturers who also have a professional affinity with learning and teaching Irish. The political imagery of Irish Revival = Patriotic Genuine True Irish Person is very strong and those piblic bods don't want to risk giving it up.

Given that the motivation of the public patriots does not apply to most people (at least after they grow up) the state actors have to maintain Irish with compulsion in school, compulsory public displays by state institutions, subvention of minority television etc., and financial support of a large number of language promoting organisations.

Shinawill. That's the make up of the Irish Revival lobby.

Carson10 · 08-05-2012 5:48pm

Personally i think the Irish Language is being rammed down peoples faces nowadays. If you want to learn/speak Irish go to your bedroom and shut the door!

Ive no problem with people from the Gaeltacht speaking Irish, but those familes who send their kids to Irish Schools is a load of Crap!! These parents dont give a bulls about Irish, its just so they look fashionable that little Oisin (ooohshine with a fada), Roisin (rowshine with a fada) and Aoibhainn go to an Irish school and they can tell their friends at the Organic Farmers Market on a Saturday morning while they talk other crap.

Why send your kid to an Irish speaking school when they live in an English speaking country? It will make no difference to their lives other than a few extra points in the Junior and leaving cert..If your bothered teach them at home yourselves for a few hours on a Saturday Morning.

These people need to get a life...! I live close to a town in North Leitrim where there is an Irish School and i see the people who drop their kids off and i can tell you its totally an image. These are the same people who wabble on about Fracking and drive clamped out Estates with roof racks so they look arty and Organic..

Iam not against Irish but most people who do it nowadays its for the Image.

Sorry Ruari, Roisin, Oisin, Diarmud, Gearoid

Ms.M · 08-05-2012 5:48pm

yawha wrote: »

What about people who speak French or German or Polish? Why aren't those languages considered equal?

I have never met someone who considered French, German or Polish central to their identity as an Irish person. We're talking about Ireland, not Europe.

golden lane · 08-05-2012 5:51pm

the revival of the irish language......is the biggest waste of money and resources, ever undertaken by a state.........

can they get off their patriotic backsides, and get on with educating the children for the future......

Interest in History · 08-05-2012 5:55pm

Ms.M wrote: »

......There are plenty of Irish speakers who are less able to communicate in English.......

Surely this can't be true? Surely everybody in Ireland to-day under the age of fifty or sixty to-day has been born to English-speaking parents and grw uo with an English programme going on their family TV set? And if they have been using a good deal of Irish, surely their main experience of life and the communal culture has been through English.

Carson10 · 08-05-2012 5:55pm

golden lane wrote: »

the revival of the irish language......is the biggest waste of money and resources, ever undertaken by a state.........

can they get off their patriotic backsides, and get on with educating the children for the future......

Totally. The money should be spent on kitting out schools with State of the Art IT suites and information Technology and Science Labs where the real jobs are in the future and can guide the kids towards this better life. The only kids who get a job out of Irish are the ones who go on to be Teachers themselves. Its a silly circle really!

golden lane · 08-05-2012 5:57pm

Carson10 wrote: »

Totally. The money should be spent on kitting out schools with State of the Art IT suites and information Technology and Science Labs where the real jobs are in the future and can guide the kids towards this better life. The only kids who get a job out of Irish are the ones who go on to be Teachers themselves. Its a silly circle really!

the gravy roundabout.........

Interest in History · 08-05-2012 5:59pm

[QUOTE=Carson10;7856647

Iam not against Irish but most people who do it nowadays its for the Image.

[/QUOTE]

But it IS about image. That's what it is about! Obviously the lived experience of a person living in Ireland is the same whether they call the thing they drinking from a 'glass' or a 'gloine'. So the difference made by using Irish can only be a difference of image, since there is no other difference.

conor.hogan.2 · 08-05-2012 6:04pm

Why do people think anyone actually believes Irish will replace English?

I do not know one Irish speaker who even remotely thinks this should happen (never mind the fact that it never could happen either)

Nor do the majority of Irish speakers I know even think the majority of Irish people will actively be Bi-lingual at least not in the forseeable future (even though the numbers are rising - see Gaelscoileanna)

The point is this is Ireland and the education system is there to educate. Not to get you a job. You get yourself a job by being educated and/or dedicated enough to whatever you want to work in.

golden lane · 08-05-2012 6:08pm

conor.hogan.2 wrote: »

Why do people think anyone actually believes Irish will replace English?

I do not know one Irish speaker who even remotely thinks this should happen (never mind the fact that it never could happen either)

Nor do the majority of Irish speakers I know even think the majority of Irish people will actively be Bi-lingual at least not in the forseeable future (even though the numbers are rising - see Gaelscoileanna)

The point is this is Ireland and the education system is there to educate. Not to get you a job. You get yourself a job by being educated and/or dedicated enough to whatever you want to work in.

you get jobs, that are available......but to compete in this world.....the country needs jobs that do compete........that is what children should be taught......

Ms.M · 08-05-2012 6:09pm

Surely this can't be true? Surely everybody in Ireland to-day under the age of fifty or sixty to-day has been born to English-speaking parents and grw uo with an English programme going on their family TV set? And if they have been using a good deal of Irish, surely their main experience of life and the communal culture has been through English.

People over fifty or sixty are still entitled to communicate through Irish if they wish. (As I've already pointed out they spend more per person on your English documents than you spend on their Irish documents; frankly if they want documents in Irish, they are entitled to them no matter what their proficiency in English.)
And yes, I know people personally who are not as comfortable talking English as they are talking Irish. This shouldn't be surprising.
I hate the term "communal culture". I know it's not yours. It always sounded very Nazi-ish to me. Am I supposed to accept that I'm not really Irish? If so, what the hell am I?

But it IS about image. That's what it is about! Obviously the lived experience of a person living in Ireland is the same whether they call the thing they drinking from a 'glass' or a 'gloine'. So the difference made by using Irish can only be a difference of image, since there is no other difference.

There is a MASSIVE difference. I've spoken to enough monoglots to know. Take the French language from a French person. Take the Spanish language from a Spanish person. Taking the Irish language from an Irish (speaking) person is the exact same thing. Are you proposing that the entire world should just speak English? Sure wouldn't they be better off?

conor.hogan.2 · 08-05-2012 6:12pm

golden lane wrote: »

you get jobs, that are available......but to compete in this world.....the country needs jobs that do compete........that is what children should be taught......

You can do both……. Get a proper general education and a job.

Enkidu · 08-05-2012 6:17pm

Interest in History wrote: »

But it IS about image. That's what it is about! Obviously the lived experience of a person living in Ireland is the same whether they call the thing they drinking from a 'glass' or a 'gloine'. So the difference made by using Irish can only be a difference of image, since there is no other difference.

What? I speak Irish because my Granny and Aunt spoke/speak it and I find it really interesting. How is my speaking Irish about "Image". Also could you explain the meaning of the sentence in bold? You could say that sentence about virtually every pair of languages on the planet (and it would still be just as false or true as it is for Irish and English).

golden lane · 08-05-2012 6:19pm

conor.hogan.2 wrote: »

You can do both……. Get a proper general education and a job.

yes, of course you can......it is the waste of resources that i think is wrong......learning irish is not a problem.....spending millions on it......is..

everybody can make their own choice.........the government should only have one choice......progress.....

Carson10 · 08-05-2012 6:27pm

Enkidu wrote: »

What? I speak Irish because my Granny and Aunt spoke/speak it and I find it really interesting. How is my speaking Irish about "Image". Also could you explain the meaning of the sentence in bold? You could say that sentence about virtually every pair of languages on the planet (and it would still be just as false or true as it is for Irish and English).

we live in Ireland. The main language is ENGLISH and will stay that way. It is about image. It looks dumb when people speak to someone in Irish when they know how to speak in English and that is their main language.

When you go to France they speak FRENCH because that is their main language.

Speak English in Ireland because that is our main language. Simple.

Same thing. People who have their name in Irish on Facebook look like twats. Your name is Donal not Domahail.

Crooked Jack · 08-05-2012 6:38pm

WOW. The bile being directed at our national language here is shocking. Personally I'd like to see it revived, but the way to do that, as many people have already said, is to make pre-schools and primary schools bilingual, or at least make Irish a large part of it, and then have it as an option at secondary education. Forcing it on people doesnt work. I know i hated it in school because of my teacher but have really been enjoying it ever since signing up to the Liofa campaign.
Some of the attitudes towards the language here are incredibly short sighted. There's pragmatism and then there is just attacking the national identity because you're ashamed of it for some reason. I suspect these are the same type of people who would like to see everyone in the world speaking Yankee-Saxon just for handiness.
Tír gan teanga, tír gan anam

golden lane · 08-05-2012 6:45pm

Crooked Jack wrote: »

WOW. The bile being directed at our national language here is shocking. Personally I'd like to see it revived, but the way to do that, as many people have already said, is to make pre-schools and primary schools bilingual, or at least make Irish a large part of it, and then have it as an option at secondary education. Forcing it on people doesnt work. I know i hated it in school because of my teacher but have really been enjoying it ever since signing up to the Liofa campaign.
Some of the attitudes towards the language here are incredibly short sighted. There's pragmatism and then there is just attacking the national identity because you're ashamed of it for some reason. I suspect these are the same type of people who would like to see everyone in the world speaking Yankee-Saxon just for handiness.
Tír gan teanga, tír gan anam

you have a choice in this world.........you can speak whatever language you want............but there is also a choice, of who wants to listen......

ramble away.....it is your right..

token101 · 08-05-2012 6:45pm

It's actually really, really simple. Get Grainne and Sile Seoige on TG4 doing their best Veronica Vaughan from Billy Madison, where they strip everytime someone calls in and puts the right tense/verb whatever on the sentence. It'll make TG4 some money, and give Grainne and Sile a meaningful role on television and in life.

twinQuins · 08-05-2012 6:48pm

Ms.M wrote: »

I have never met someone who considered French, German or Polish central to their identity as an Irish person. We're talking about Ireland, not Europe.

Do you see anything wrong about the highlighted part?

LordSutch · 08-05-2012 6:56pm

Crooked Jack wrote: »

WOW. The bile being directed at our national language here is shocking. Personally I'd like to see it revived, but the way to do that, as many people have already said, is to make pre-schools and primary schools bilingual, or at least make Irish a large part of it, and then have it as an option at secondary education. Forcing it on people doesnt work. I know i hated it in school because of my teacher but have really been enjoying it ever since signing up to the Liofa campaign.
Some of the attitudes towards the language here are incredibly short sighted. There's pragmatism and then there is just attacking the national identity because you're ashamed of it for some reason. I suspect these are the same type of people who would like to see everyone in the world speaking Yankee-Saxon just for handiness.
Tír gan teanga, tír gan anam

As a matter of interest would you include my sentiments in post #160 as being negative towards the Irish language, or productive?

Enkidu · 08-05-2012 7:10pm

Carson10 wrote: »

we live in Ireland. The main language is ENGLISH and will stay that way. It is about image. It looks dumb when people speak to someone in Irish when they know how to speak in English and that is their main language.

When you go to France they speak FRENCH because that is their main language.

What? There are countries with several languages. In France they also speak Breton. Why "must" you speak one of them always.

Speak English in Ireland because that is our main language. Simple.

I do. To people who can also speak Irish, I speak Irish provided there is nobody there who that would exclude. Why shouldn't I? Because it's not normal to Carson10?

conor.hogan.2 · 08-05-2012 7:15pm

I can not believe people live in such a black and white world where everything is so fine cut and easy.

We can (and do…) speak English and Irish and we can (and do….) teach both English, Irish and another language (or two in some students cases)

SafeSurfer · 08-05-2012 7:18pm

Reviving our dead language should be way way down our list of national priorities.

Take the example of Croke Park on all Ireland final day. A small minority of those attending that most nationalistic expressions of Irish "culture" are able to understand the token pigeon Irish part of the winning team captain's speech let alone the meaning of the words of the anthem they so enthusiastically sing at the start of the match.

languagenerd · 08-05-2012 7:52pm

Carson10 wrote: »

Totally. The money should be spent on kitting out schools with State of the Art IT suites and information Technology and Science Labs where the real jobs are in the future and can guide the kids towards this better life. The only kids who get a job out of Irish are the ones who go on to be Teachers themselves. Its a silly circle really!

I can understand some of your earlier points, but bringing "real jobs" into it? For one thing, there are jobs in Science and IT at the moment but that doesn't mean we should push everyone towards them. In a few years time, we'll end up with too many people looking for jobs in that sector (like there was with teachers and nurses a while ago) and not only that, some of them will be of lesser quality because they never wanted to be scientists in the first place. Plus not everyone is good at science and technology subjects.

Also, people with Irish degrees go on to be translators (at home and in the E.U.) as well as broadcasters, journalists and publishers. Not just teachers!

Anyway, since when is school supposed to be all about jobs? Is providing a well-rounded education not its main priority? We shouldn't start treating the country like a business and the citizens like employees. Why financialize every little part of life?!

deise go deo · 08-05-2012 7:59pm

Interest in History wrote: »

Surely this can't be true? Surely everybody in Ireland to-day under the age of fifty or sixty to-day has been born to English-speaking parents and grw uo with an English programme going on their family TV set? And if they have been using a good deal of Irish, surely their main experience of life and the communal culture has been through English.

Have you ever been to a Gaeltacht? In strong Gaeltacht areas many children will not begin to learn English untill they go to school. There are plenty of children who would not have any grasp of English before 7 or 8, they don't need it before then.

Interest in History · 08-05-2012 8:16pm

Ms.M wrote: »

... People over fifty or sixty are still entitled to communicate through Irish if they wish....

...... Are you proposing that the entire world should just speak English? ...

I only meant to question the suggestion that there are many people on Ireland who can speak Irish better than they can speak English. I think they must be very few indeed and that they must be very old if their parents spoke only Irish to them. They must have been borne on (say) the Aran Islands before 1950.

Incidentally; I personally don't care what language people speak as long as I can understand them, and that category includes Irish. And as for everybody in the world speaking English? Why should I care? If they choose to, let them. And since the Irish have in fact made this choice, let them too.

Bambii_ · 08-05-2012 8:20pm

I think it should be made optional in schools. If a persons feels like that chose to learn it then they might be more enthusiastic about learning it. We're forced to learn it from a young age so we develop a strong dislike towards it and we put a mental bloke on learning it.

Or we could import alot of those Americans that are learning it. It's meant to be a very big language over there.. Very popular..

Or we could just let it die out.. it's not that nice of a language anyway (:

MysticalRain · 08-05-2012 8:25pm

languagenerd wrote: »

I can understand some of your earlier points, but bringing "real jobs" into it? For one thing, there are jobs in Science and IT at the moment but that doesn't mean we should push everyone towards them. In a few years time, we'll end up with too many people looking for jobs in that sector (like there was with teachers and nurses a while ago) and not only that, some of them will be of lesser quality because they never wanted to be scientists in the first place. Plus not everyone is good at science and technology subjects.

Also, people with Irish degrees go on to be translators (at home and in the E.U.) as well as broadcasters, journalists and publishers. Not just teachers!

Anyway, since when is school supposed to be all about jobs? Is providing a well-rounded education not its main priority? We shouldn't start treating the country like a business and the citizens like employees. Why financialize every little part of life?!

A good education system should be about both. Culture is great. But that is of little consequence for an someone on the dole or struggling in a dead end job. You can't really have one without the other.

Our education system is one of the few economic resources this country has, and right now it is not fit for purpose. Far too much time is spent on rote learning, the Irish language, and religion. Not enough time is spent on training people for careers in the more productive areas of the economy. Ultimately, Irish needs to be made optional beyond national school level to make way for a more modern curriculum focused more on STEM subjects, and modern languages.

Interest in History · 08-05-2012 8:30pm

deise go deo wrote: »

Have you ever been to a Gaeltacht? In strong Gaeltacht areas many children will not begin to learn English untill they go to school. There are plenty of children who would not have any grasp of English before 7 or 8, they don't need it before then.

Yes: I had work that took me to the Galway gaeltacht ten years ago, but everybody dealt with me in English. Ditto in Ring two years ago. So my visits did not qualify me to say how much Irish was in use generally.

I get my references from A Study of Gaeltacht Schools by the Council for Gaeltacht and gaelscoileanna Education 2004. The Report said that the largest group of children entering junior infants classes in the majority of Gaeltacht schools had little or no Irish. That would be at (?) age five?

But I don't know if that historical information will mean much when the new linguistic definition of Gaeltacht comes in. So perhaps we should not waste time on it.

GaryIrv93 · 08-05-2012 8:31pm

conor.hogan.2 wrote: »

The point is this is Ireland and the education system is there to educate. Not to get you a job. You get yourself a job by being educated and/or dedicated enough to whatever you want to work in.

The purpose of an education system is not to keep a language alive though. In Ireland far too much importance is placed in schools on so-called ''national identity'' and ''cultural heritage''. So why is it just the language? Why not also Irish dancing? or Hurling, or Gaelic football? They're also ''part of our culture'', so why aren't they also compulsory, considering they would also keep kids fit? Times have changed - it's time to move on from keeping our language on the life support which (hasn't helped a bit) and let it live naturally.

Interest in History · 08-05-2012 8:36pm

MysticalRain wrote: »

Our education system is one of the few economic resources this country has, and right now it is not fit for purpose. Far too much time is spent on rote learning, the Irish language, and religion.... Ultimately, Irish needs to be made optional beyond national school level to make way for a more modern curriculum focused more on STEM subjects, and modern languages.

The official allocation of time to English and Irish in primary schools is three and a half hours of Irish to every four hours of English. Nobody seems to know what the actual allocation of time is in practice. What we do know is that large groups of pupils in disdvantaged circumstances leave primary school illiterate. In fact, primary school has been the least productive application of resources in reviving Irish.

If Irish were to be treated as a cultural resource and not as a political symbol, the logical thing to do would be to start it in secondary school, have it a fixed part of the curriculum for two years, and then make it a subject of choice in the Leaving Cert.

yawha · 08-05-2012 9:01pm

Ms.M wrote: »

I have never met someone who considered French, German or Polish central to their identity as an Irish person. We're talking about Ireland, not Europe.

But you just said that this was about equality, not about identity...

Iwasfrozen · 08-05-2012 9:36pm

Ms.M wrote: »

Yes I most definitely think it is an equality issue. There are plenty of Irish speakers who are less able to communicate in English. Especially in regards to low frequency words. You may be overestimating the cost of duplicating documents. The documents that are duplicated would be sent to Gaeltacht homes in English but are instead sent in Irish. People's imagination's have got the better of them in this case. It's not very expensive. The amount spent on English "monoglots" far outweights that spent on Irish-speakers even when you take into account the lesser percentage of Irish-speakers. So Irish-speakers pay OVER their fair share for documents produced in English; why shouldn't they be allowed documents in Irish?

And with respect, I don't think your comments are bigoted. (I'm not going to re-read all your posts though!) Some of the arguments made are certainly offensive. I didn't say yours were.

I really don't see how that's a problem there are very few irish speakers who are not able to speak english and we can service them much cheaper on a term by term basis rather then having a whole system of duplication in services set up just for a small minority. This is only placing unecessary economic duress on the ordinary tax payer.

And here we see the logical fallacy of your argument. When money is being wasted, be it by a minority group or a vested interest or any other reason then surely it is the governments duty to stop that waste regardless of how big it is. Saying "It's alright to continue because it's only a small waste" is counter productive. Surely we should try to stop any waste, great or small. I really don't see how you can say irish speakers are compensating the price of english language documents. That's just ridiculous. Especially when you consider the gaeltacht is totally economically dependent on government grants while Dublin, the economic powerhouse of this country is will within the english speaking part of Ireland.

I notice you didn't comment on the David Mitchell video. That's a shame because I wanted to hear your views on it.

conor.hogan.2 · 08-05-2012 10:11pm

GaryIrv93 wrote: »

The purpose of an education system is not to keep a language alive though. In Ireland far too much importance is placed in schools on so-called ''national identity'' and ''cultural heritage''. So why is it just the language? Why not also Irish dancing? or Hurling, or Gaelic football? They're also ''part of our culture'', so why aren't they also compulsory, considering they would also keep kids fit? Times have changed - it's time to move on from keeping our language on the life support which (hasn't helped a bit) and let it live naturally.

It is not keeping it alive. It is teaching it in schools in Ireland.

Just like how we teach other languages in PE with do all sports (Irish ones included)

PE is compulsory pretty much.

Interest in History wrote: »

the logical thing to do ….

… is to do what the vast vast majority of people are in favour of doing and that is continued use of Irish in education along with English, Maths and several other subjects.

languagenerd · 08-05-2012 10:49pm

MysticalRain wrote: »

A good education system should be about both. Culture is great. But that is of little consequence for an someone on the dole or struggling in a dead end job. You can't really have one without the other.

Our education system is one of the few economic resources this country has, and right now it is not fit for purpose. Far too much time is spent on rote learning, the Irish language, and religion. Not enough time is spent on training people for careers in the more productive areas of the economy. Ultimately, Irish needs to be made optional beyond national school level to make way for a more modern curriculum focused more on STEM subjects, and modern languages.

I know, but I think there's a fine line that we shouldn't cross. If we decided that Irish wasn't worth our money/time, then what other subjects would we cross off the list? It can't all be about jobs and the economy. Schools should be giving students a grounding in a wide range of subjects, teaching them about life and society AND preparing them for work. Learning Irish can teach other skills, like analytical thinking, logic, comparison etc. It also makes learning other languages easier (if it's done right).

Yes, schools should teach the skills necessary for the workforce, but that should be only one of their aims. That said, I think that compulsory Irish is one of the reasons that people seem to hate it so much. Making it optional could change people's opinions of it, as long as it was accompanied by a new curriculum to get rid of the perception that it's difficult!

Carson10 · 08-05-2012 11:03pm

languagenerd wrote: »

I can understand some of your earlier points, but bringing "real jobs" into it? For one thing, there are jobs in Science and IT at the moment but that doesn't mean we should push everyone towards them. In a few years time, we'll end up with too many people looking for jobs in that sector (like there was with teachers and nurses a while ago) and not only that, some of them will be of lesser quality because they never wanted to be scientists in the first place. Plus not everyone is good at science and technology subjects.

Also, people with Irish degrees go on to be translators (at home and in the E.U.) as well as broadcasters, journalists and publishers. Not just teachers!

Anyway, since when is school supposed to be all about jobs? Is providing a well-rounded education not its main priority? We shouldn't start treating the country like a business and the citizens like employees. Why financialize every little part of life?!

My view has nothing to do with financializing anything. Doubt there is much demand for an Irish Gaelic speaking translator anywhere in the world, the only suitation i could think there would be need for an Irish translator would be if there was some organic hippy arressted for prostesting about fracking or somthing and he demand his rights to be read in Irish, just to be different and awkward.

Also i think training kids in Information Technology would massively outway teaching them a pointless subject like Irish. Technology is used in every single job now. Even someone hired to clean an office prob has to be able to use a computer to check emails from their employer. Id say out of every 500'000 kids in Ireland trained in Irish only about 5 would actually get an adult real job.

MysticalRain · 08-05-2012 11:13pm

languagenerd wrote: »

I know, but I think there's a fine line that we shouldn't cross. If we decided that Irish wasn't worth our money/time, then what other subjects would we cross off the list? It can't all be about jobs and the economy. Schools should be giving students a grounding in a wide range of subjects, teaching them about life and society AND preparing them for work. Learning Irish can teach other skills, like analytical thinking, logic, comparison etc. It also makes learning other languages easier (if it's done right).

Yes, schools should teach the skills necessary for the workforce, but that should be only one of their aims. That said, I think that compulsory Irish is one of the reasons that people seem to hate it so much. Making it optional could change people's opinions of it, as long as it was accompanied by a new curriculum to get rid of the perception that it's difficult!

I don't think anyone is saying here that the Irish language should be erased from the school curriculum. Only that it should be made optional, and less time devoted to it. I would see the subject of Irish as being equivalent to Irish history (which I regard as being far more important in cultural terms). It's one of those subjects people should study for cultural reasons, and there should probably be about the same level of time devoted to both subjects.

Regarding learning Irish to teach other skills, like analytical thinking, logic, comparison etc...I don't really associate languages with teaching those skills, at least not in comparison with science and math. If there is some benefit, then it is a very small one.

It's true that learning one language makes it a lot easier to learn another. The problem with the Irish school curriculum is that is it basically only teaches one language (aside from the native language of English) for most of it, and there lies the problem. Irish is taught at the expense of all other languages. At least up until secondary level, and even at that level, it's compulsory status siphons off time that could be devoted to learning modern European languages.

languagenerd · 08-05-2012 11:17pm

Carson10 wrote: »

My view has nothing to do with financializing anything.

But to an extent you are financialising school because you're basing your subject choices on the economy. You're entitled to your opinion that Irish is "pointless", but you're mainly basing this decision on its usefulness to the economy, are you not?

Doubt there is much demand for an Irish Gaelic speaking translator anywhere in the world, the only suitation i could think there would be need for an Irish translator would be if there was some organic hippy arressted for prostesting about fracking or somthing and he demand his rights to be read in Irish, just to be different and awkward.

Incorrect: Irish is an official E.U. language (has been since 2007), meaning that the majority of E.U. documents, treaties and laws must be translated into Irish, and there are Irish interpreters at the E.U. Parliament etc.

Also i think training kids in Information Technology would massively outway teaching them a pointless subject like Irish. Technology is used in every single job now. Even someone hired to clean an office prob has to be able to use a computer to check emails from their employer. Id say out of every 500'000 kids in Ireland trained in Irish only about 5 would actually get an adult real job.

Why does it have to be an "either/or" decision? Can they not study both subjects?

I'm currently doing a degree in modern languages and translation. I do not use Irish, Maths, Accounting or Chemistry, all of which I also did at higher level in the LC. I don't use them, but I'm not sorry I learned them! They each taught me different skills, different ways of looking at things, different experiences that I can apply to various situations. Plus at 15 I had no idea what I wanted to do, or even what I was good at. There's a lot to be said for general education! I also learned a bit of I.T. at school (did the MOS exam in TY), and I agree that it has indeed proved useful. But that doesn't mean I would want it to replace another subject. Can we not do both?

How to revive the Irish language.

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