How to revive the Irish language.

Ms.M · 07-05-2012 3:20pm

LordSutch wrote: »

But surely if Irish is compulsory in school then the aim is to get everybody to speak Irish? Yes? Possibly in the same way as the Danes speak Danish, or the Norwegians speak Norwegian? And if its not the aim to get everybody speaking Irish en masse, then what is the aim of the Irish language lobby? and I ask this genuinely, and with the backdrop of mandatory Irish in school.

I know I should know better than argue a point I've already made and been ignored on.
(I'll agree with another poster, we DO NOT need another Irish language thread)
But, with respect the anti-Irish campaigners are worse culprits than me so.....

Irish is given equal status with English because of the Equal Status Act.
The Equal Status Act is based on the idea that a person born in the Gaeltacht, a person raised in an Irish-speaking family or any Irish-speaker is entitled to the same rights as an English-speaking Irish person. Included is a recognition that their culture is just as valid as English-speaking culture is.

It is based on a principle of equality. Not based on a belief that "Irish is as important as English to the majority of Irish people" or "Irish should be our first language."

Furthermore, the Irish language is not an abstract thing. You can't belittle it and pretend you are not belittling the people for whom it is their culture and not a "dead" thing. I'm sure there is a rule against making bigoted comments. Some of these posters should be banned.
(not talking about you Lord Sutch)

.... Just read the OP's post. In the spirit of equality I wouldn't agree with that "Kinda thing."

How does a joke thread always descend into seriousness? Bah!

Iwasfrozen · 07-05-2012 6:26pm

Ms.M wrote: »

Furthermore, the Irish language is not an abstract thing. You can't belittle it and pretend you are not belittling the people for whom it is their culture and not a "dead" thing. I'm sure there is a rule against making bigoted comments. Some of these posters should be banned.
(not talking about you Lord Sutch)

Just on this bit there's no rules again attacking a persons beliefs or ideology as long as you don't attack the person. For example I can say "communism is stupid" (which it is but different thread) or "communists are stupid because they follow communism" but I can't say personally to a communist "you are stupid." That's the important difference here. Everyone is perfectly entitled to hold an opinion different to yours.

Now back on topic, Irish will never see a revival so if we could all stop wasting money during a huge recession chasing the pipe dream it would be nice.

Ms.M · 07-05-2012 6:33pm

Nope, you still ignored the point of my post.
It is a waste of money if you think "equality is stupid".
Fair enough. I can say "I think people who think equality is stupid are stupid".
This is fun.

Oh and by the way "I feckin hate ___________ (insert any language), sure why don't we all live in a cabin in the Wesht and go back to the Middle ages."
"I'm sick of listening to people who speak ____________ (insert any language) what with their stuck-up elitist ways and ill-taste in children's names."
"I also hate ___________ (insert any language) and I think we should kill it."

Put in French and you're saying I'm not making any bigoted statements about French people?

You are reducing identity to ideology I'm afraid. NOT THE SAME!

Iwasfrozen · 07-05-2012 7:55pm

Ms.M wrote: »

Nope, you still ignored the point of my post.
It is a waste of money if you think "equality is stupid".
Fair enough. I can say "I think people who think equality is stupid are stupid".
This is fun.

Are you serious? Do you really think this is an equality issue? There are no no monoglot irish speakers so the need for providing services through irish is rendered obsolete. Removing or not providing said redundent services is not discrimination, it's a strategic realignment of state resources during a period of austerity for the good of the people as a whole. Not a stubborn minority who are perfectly capable of communicating with the government through it's chosen language but refuse to do so and expect the majority to pay for this duplication of services that they demand. That's the mindset that you're proposing/defending.

Ms.M wrote: »

Oh and by the way "I feckin hate ___________ (insert any language), sure why don't we all live in a cabin in the Wesht and go back to the Middle ages."
"I'm sick of listening to people who speak ____________ (insert any language) what with their stuck-up elitist ways and ill-taste in children's names."
"I also hate ___________ (insert any language) and I think we should kill it."

Put in French and you're saying I'm not making any bigoted statements about French people?

You are reducing identity to ideology I'm afraid. NOT THE SAME!

Nice try but attacking a movement to have the government spend money on promoting the french language is not the same thing as attackng the french people.

Out of interest what do you think of David Mitchell's views on gaelic here? Because that's basically all we're saying in regards to irish.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OvlQXPNwrqo

Wibbs · 07-05-2012 9:46pm

Ms.M wrote: »

Put in French and you're saying I'm not making any bigoted statements about French people?

OK Take your French example. 99.splat per cent of French people are fully fluent in French. It's their first language, the language of everyday communication. Barring some mental incapacity a French person who wasn't fluent in French would be a very rare thing. It is a massive part of who they are. If you wanted to move to France you would require French. Simple as that. The languages name describes it's cultural importance in concrete terms. Irish does not. In concrete terms the language is a pretty small part of being Irish. Same word, not the same cultural and practical importance. Not by a long shot.

So on your point about bigoted statements, inserting French into your example, would be pretty daft, never mind bringing "bigoted" into it. It doesn't require anyone to go off to the wilds of the Dordogne to speak it. It's the language of the simple through to the sophisticated. Elitist draws a blank too. From the "proles" to the "bourgeois" they identify themselves in French. Killing French? Good luck with that.

Watching David Mitchell's piece, I wonder does the figure of 60,000 fluent speakers of Scot's Gaelic bear any scrutiny(I doubt it)? If it does, then Scots Gaelic is apparently in a healthier state than Irish.

Vested interests are usually worrying. With Irish, it's all too often those with a financial stake in the concept, then those with a political stake, then those with a cultural hobby stake, then those "Oirish" Gombeen men make an appearance. A gombeen man like E O'Cuiv would encapsulate most of that lot. It seems to be rare enough the native speakers are heard in the mix.

GaryIrv93 · 08-05-2012 12:27am

The language doesn't need to be revived - we're already speaking English and we're doing just fine keeping it that way. The amount of problems that would be faced trying to bring Irish up to where English is right now simply isin't worth it. A language is a language, and they don't exist for so called ''cultural heritage'' or ''honoring and respecting our ancestors'' or for any other mad reason. Languages exist for communication.

It'll be kept alive as long as there's people that have an interest and love for the language trying to keep it alive. What's killing it is it's forced compulsion in schools and it's teaching methods that just don't work, but it's kept like that anyway. With the way it's taught, and how it's compulsory, it's very unlikely that there'll be a big rise in everyday speakers.

mrkiscool2 · 08-05-2012 12:34am

Ms.M wrote: »

How does a joke thread always descend into seriousness? Bah!

Because, sometimes, there are people actually that stupid as to say something like what the op said! Simply as! Also, what if it isn't a joke thread? Then you'll be sorry!!

But no, in all seriousness, there is an easy solution to the problem raised (even if it was a joke post) Teach it better at Primary School, and make it non-compulsory at Leaving Cert! The problem is you go from learning simple verbs and phrases in primary school to doing poetry and serious essay's in Junior Cert and then plays poetry and serious essays in Leaving Cert! There is less of a workload in English at Leaving Cert than Higher-Level Irish!

LordSutch · 08-05-2012 8:16am

That David Mitchell clip is brilliant, its not anti Scots gaelic, but it is respectful and realistic towards the language and the speaking of. Too often here in Ireland, defenders of the compulsory nature of the Irish language will jump on you straight away if you dare to make similar comments/ suggestions about it 'the Irish language' which I also think should be loved and cherished, but not force fed to all ages and in every Irish school.

The Irish language should be cherished and kept alive, but it should not be a mandatory subject foir all kids in all schools IMO. I also think the key to reviving Irish is to take out that compulsory teaching, which lets face it, just hasn't worked since it was introduced eight decades ago.

Ms.M · 08-05-2012 5:21pm

Wibbs wrote: »

OK Take your French example. 99.splat per cent of French people are fully fluent in French. It's their first language, the language of everyday communication. Barring some mental incapacity a French person who wasn't fluent in French would be a very rare thing. It is a massive part of who they are. If you wanted to move to France you would require French. Simple as that. The languages name describes it's cultural importance in concrete terms. Irish does not. In concrete terms the language is a pretty small part of being Irish. Same word, not the same cultural and practical importance. Not by a long shot.

Again, same argument Wibbs. Irish language is just as important to my identity as an Irish person as French is to a French person. It is the main part. Fine if you don't consider it part of yours. Culturally, we differ. I respect your culture. I don't share it. Why can't you respect mine?

You can't make the statement "the language is a pretty small part of being Irish." Just like I can't say "People who don't speak Irish are less Irish than me." There are very different ideas of what Irishness is. Making vast generalisations just proves my point about the arguments made in this foram.

So on your point about bigoted statements, inserting French into your example, would be pretty daft, never mind bringing "bigoted" into it. It doesn't require anyone to go off to the wilds of the Dordogne to speak it. It's the language of the simple through to the sophisticated. Elitist draws a blank too. From the "proles" to the "bourgeois" they identify themselves in French. Killing French? Good luck with that.

Watching David Mitchell's piece, I wonder does the figure of 60,000 fluent speakers of Scot's Gaelic bear any scrutiny(I doubt it)? If it does, then Scots Gaelic is apparently in a healthier state than Irish.

No, Scots Gaelic is not in a healthier state than Irish. Though I hope it makes a revival and believe it will.

Vested interests are usually worrying. With Irish, it's all too often those with a financial stake in the concept, then those with a political stake, then those with a cultural hobby stake, then those "Oirish" Gombeen men make an appearance. A gombeen man like E O'Cuiv would encapsulate most of that lot. It seems to be rare enough the native speakers are heard in the mix.

Ok so. Irish can be reduced to a "cultural hobby"apparently. Lovely. I detect no bigotry there. Sure we all hate "that lot." You're Irish, I'm Oirish, thank you for educating me. I guess you're just culturally superior to me. I think this is the jist of most of the arguments on this Wibbs so I don't mean to criticise you personally. You referred in another foram to growing up in Dublin and seeing Irish as being for culchies etc. I grew up in working class Dublin and my experience was similar. Your comments reflect an aspect of Irish culture that I do not like and don't buy into. My culture is just as valid as yours. Accept this or state "I believe my culture is more important than yours". Stop making pseudo-points.

E O'Cuiv is a native speaker.

yawha · 08-05-2012 5:35pm

Ms.M wrote: »

Irish is given equal status with English because of the Equal Status Act.
The Equal Status Act is based on the idea that a person born in the Gaeltacht, a person raised in an Irish-speaking family or any Irish-speaker is entitled to the same rights as an English-speaking Irish person. Included is a recognition that their culture is just as valid as English-speaking culture is.

What about people who speak French or German or Polish? Why aren't those languages considered equal?

Ms.M · 08-05-2012 5:44pm

Iwasfrozen wrote: »

Are you serious? Do you really think this is an equality issue? There are no no monoglot irish speakers so the need for providing services through irish is rendered obsolete. Removing or not providing said redundent services is not discrimination, it's a strategic realignment of state resources during a period of austerity for the good of the people as a whole. Not a stubborn minority who are perfectly capable of communicating with the government through it's chosen language but refuse to do so and expect the majority to pay for this duplication of services that they demand. That's the mindset that you're proposing/defending.

Nice try but attacking a movement to have the government spend money on promoting the french language is not the same thing as attackng the french people.

Out of interest what do you think of David Mitchell's views on gaelic here? Because that's basically all we're saying in regards to irish.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OvlQXPNwrqo

Yes I most definitely think it is an equality issue. There are plenty of Irish speakers who are less able to communicate in English. Especially in regards to low frequency words. You may be overestimating the cost of duplicating documents. The documents that are duplicated would be sent to Gaeltacht homes in English but are instead sent in Irish. People's imagination's have got the better of them in this case. It's not very expensive. The amount spent on English "monoglots" far outweights that spent on Irish-speakers even when you take into account the lesser percentage of Irish-speakers. So Irish-speakers pay OVER their fair share for documents produced in English; why shouldn't they be allowed documents in Irish?

And with respect, I don't think your comments are bigoted. (I'm not going to re-read all your posts though!) Some of the arguments made are certainly offensive. I didn't say yours were.

aaronjumper · 08-05-2012 5:47pm

Prisons are already struggling, now you want to throw the large number of people that would fail your test in with the thieves murderers and rapists?

Sense. Your post makes none.

That said I would like to be able to insult people I am sitting or standing near without them knowing.

Interest in History · 08-05-2012 5:47pm

conor.hogan.2 wrote: »

...What Irish language lobby? We do not meet on wednesdays in cú na irishnagon....

Irish is maintained through state action because the elected officials sense that it is part of their patriotic accreditation for being members of the Dail or Senate. This is in synch with the fact that within living memory a quarter of the members have been from the educational scene: teachers & lecturers who also have a professional affinity with learning and teaching Irish. The political imagery of Irish Revival = Patriotic Genuine True Irish Person is very strong and those piblic bods don't want to risk giving it up.

Given that the motivation of the public patriots does not apply to most people (at least after they grow up) the state actors have to maintain Irish with compulsion in school, compulsory public displays by state institutions, subvention of minority television etc., and financial support of a large number of language promoting organisations.

Shinawill. That's the make up of the Irish Revival lobby.

Carson10 · 08-05-2012 5:48pm

Personally i think the Irish Language is being rammed down peoples faces nowadays. If you want to learn/speak Irish go to your bedroom and shut the door!

Ive no problem with people from the Gaeltacht speaking Irish, but those familes who send their kids to Irish Schools is a load of Crap!! These parents dont give a bulls about Irish, its just so they look fashionable that little Oisin (ooohshine with a fada), Roisin (rowshine with a fada) and Aoibhainn go to an Irish school and they can tell their friends at the Organic Farmers Market on a Saturday morning while they talk other crap.

Why send your kid to an Irish speaking school when they live in an English speaking country? It will make no difference to their lives other than a few extra points in the Junior and leaving cert..If your bothered teach them at home yourselves for a few hours on a Saturday Morning.

These people need to get a life...! I live close to a town in North Leitrim where there is an Irish School and i see the people who drop their kids off and i can tell you its totally an image. These are the same people who wabble on about Fracking and drive clamped out Estates with roof racks so they look arty and Organic..

Iam not against Irish but most people who do it nowadays its for the Image.

Sorry Ruari, Roisin, Oisin, Diarmud, Gearoid

Ms.M · 08-05-2012 5:48pm

yawha wrote: »

What about people who speak French or German or Polish? Why aren't those languages considered equal?

I have never met someone who considered French, German or Polish central to their identity as an Irish person. We're talking about Ireland, not Europe.

golden lane · 08-05-2012 5:51pm

the revival of the irish language......is the biggest waste of money and resources, ever undertaken by a state.........

can they get off their patriotic backsides, and get on with educating the children for the future......

Interest in History · 08-05-2012 5:55pm

Ms.M wrote: »

......There are plenty of Irish speakers who are less able to communicate in English.......

Surely this can't be true? Surely everybody in Ireland to-day under the age of fifty or sixty to-day has been born to English-speaking parents and grw uo with an English programme going on their family TV set? And if they have been using a good deal of Irish, surely their main experience of life and the communal culture has been through English.

Carson10 · 08-05-2012 5:55pm

golden lane wrote: »

the revival of the irish language......is the biggest waste of money and resources, ever undertaken by a state.........

can they get off their patriotic backsides, and get on with educating the children for the future......

Totally. The money should be spent on kitting out schools with State of the Art IT suites and information Technology and Science Labs where the real jobs are in the future and can guide the kids towards this better life. The only kids who get a job out of Irish are the ones who go on to be Teachers themselves. Its a silly circle really!

golden lane · 08-05-2012 5:57pm

Carson10 wrote: »

Totally. The money should be spent on kitting out schools with State of the Art IT suites and information Technology and Science Labs where the real jobs are in the future and can guide the kids towards this better life. The only kids who get a job out of Irish are the ones who go on to be Teachers themselves. Its a silly circle really!

the gravy roundabout.........

Interest in History · 08-05-2012 5:59pm

[QUOTE=Carson10;7856647

Iam not against Irish but most people who do it nowadays its for the Image.

[/QUOTE]

But it IS about image. That's what it is about! Obviously the lived experience of a person living in Ireland is the same whether they call the thing they drinking from a 'glass' or a 'gloine'. So the difference made by using Irish can only be a difference of image, since there is no other difference.

conor.hogan.2 · 08-05-2012 6:04pm

Why do people think anyone actually believes Irish will replace English?

I do not know one Irish speaker who even remotely thinks this should happen (never mind the fact that it never could happen either)

Nor do the majority of Irish speakers I know even think the majority of Irish people will actively be Bi-lingual at least not in the forseeable future (even though the numbers are rising - see Gaelscoileanna)

The point is this is Ireland and the education system is there to educate. Not to get you a job. You get yourself a job by being educated and/or dedicated enough to whatever you want to work in.

golden lane · 08-05-2012 6:08pm

conor.hogan.2 wrote: »

Why do people think anyone actually believes Irish will replace English?

I do not know one Irish speaker who even remotely thinks this should happen (never mind the fact that it never could happen either)

Nor do the majority of Irish speakers I know even think the majority of Irish people will actively be Bi-lingual at least not in the forseeable future (even though the numbers are rising - see Gaelscoileanna)

The point is this is Ireland and the education system is there to educate. Not to get you a job. You get yourself a job by being educated and/or dedicated enough to whatever you want to work in.

you get jobs, that are available......but to compete in this world.....the country needs jobs that do compete........that is what children should be taught......

Ms.M · 08-05-2012 6:09pm

Surely this can't be true? Surely everybody in Ireland to-day under the age of fifty or sixty to-day has been born to English-speaking parents and grw uo with an English programme going on their family TV set? And if they have been using a good deal of Irish, surely their main experience of life and the communal culture has been through English.

People over fifty or sixty are still entitled to communicate through Irish if they wish. (As I've already pointed out they spend more per person on your English documents than you spend on their Irish documents; frankly if they want documents in Irish, they are entitled to them no matter what their proficiency in English.)
And yes, I know people personally who are not as comfortable talking English as they are talking Irish. This shouldn't be surprising.
I hate the term "communal culture". I know it's not yours. It always sounded very Nazi-ish to me. Am I supposed to accept that I'm not really Irish? If so, what the hell am I?

But it IS about image. That's what it is about! Obviously the lived experience of a person living in Ireland is the same whether they call the thing they drinking from a 'glass' or a 'gloine'. So the difference made by using Irish can only be a difference of image, since there is no other difference.

There is a MASSIVE difference. I've spoken to enough monoglots to know. Take the French language from a French person. Take the Spanish language from a Spanish person. Taking the Irish language from an Irish (speaking) person is the exact same thing. Are you proposing that the entire world should just speak English? Sure wouldn't they be better off?

conor.hogan.2 · 08-05-2012 6:12pm

golden lane wrote: »

you get jobs, that are available......but to compete in this world.....the country needs jobs that do compete........that is what children should be taught......

You can do both……. Get a proper general education and a job.

Enkidu · 08-05-2012 6:17pm

Interest in History wrote: »

But it IS about image. That's what it is about! Obviously the lived experience of a person living in Ireland is the same whether they call the thing they drinking from a 'glass' or a 'gloine'. So the difference made by using Irish can only be a difference of image, since there is no other difference.

What? I speak Irish because my Granny and Aunt spoke/speak it and I find it really interesting. How is my speaking Irish about "Image". Also could you explain the meaning of the sentence in bold? You could say that sentence about virtually every pair of languages on the planet (and it would still be just as false or true as it is for Irish and English).

golden lane · 08-05-2012 6:19pm

conor.hogan.2 wrote: »

You can do both……. Get a proper general education and a job.

yes, of course you can......it is the waste of resources that i think is wrong......learning irish is not a problem.....spending millions on it......is..

everybody can make their own choice.........the government should only have one choice......progress.....

Carson10 · 08-05-2012 6:27pm

Enkidu wrote: »

What? I speak Irish because my Granny and Aunt spoke/speak it and I find it really interesting. How is my speaking Irish about "Image". Also could you explain the meaning of the sentence in bold? You could say that sentence about virtually every pair of languages on the planet (and it would still be just as false or true as it is for Irish and English).

we live in Ireland. The main language is ENGLISH and will stay that way. It is about image. It looks dumb when people speak to someone in Irish when they know how to speak in English and that is their main language.

When you go to France they speak FRENCH because that is their main language.

Speak English in Ireland because that is our main language. Simple.

Same thing. People who have their name in Irish on Facebook look like twats. Your name is Donal not Domahail.

Crooked Jack · 08-05-2012 6:38pm

WOW. The bile being directed at our national language here is shocking. Personally I'd like to see it revived, but the way to do that, as many people have already said, is to make pre-schools and primary schools bilingual, or at least make Irish a large part of it, and then have it as an option at secondary education. Forcing it on people doesnt work. I know i hated it in school because of my teacher but have really been enjoying it ever since signing up to the Liofa campaign.
Some of the attitudes towards the language here are incredibly short sighted. There's pragmatism and then there is just attacking the national identity because you're ashamed of it for some reason. I suspect these are the same type of people who would like to see everyone in the world speaking Yankee-Saxon just for handiness.
Tír gan teanga, tír gan anam

golden lane · 08-05-2012 6:45pm

Crooked Jack wrote: »

WOW. The bile being directed at our national language here is shocking. Personally I'd like to see it revived, but the way to do that, as many people have already said, is to make pre-schools and primary schools bilingual, or at least make Irish a large part of it, and then have it as an option at secondary education. Forcing it on people doesnt work. I know i hated it in school because of my teacher but have really been enjoying it ever since signing up to the Liofa campaign.
Some of the attitudes towards the language here are incredibly short sighted. There's pragmatism and then there is just attacking the national identity because you're ashamed of it for some reason. I suspect these are the same type of people who would like to see everyone in the world speaking Yankee-Saxon just for handiness.
Tír gan teanga, tír gan anam

you have a choice in this world.........you can speak whatever language you want............but there is also a choice, of who wants to listen......

ramble away.....it is your right..

token101 · 08-05-2012 6:45pm

It's actually really, really simple. Get Grainne and Sile Seoige on TG4 doing their best Veronica Vaughan from Billy Madison, where they strip everytime someone calls in and puts the right tense/verb whatever on the sentence. It'll make TG4 some money, and give Grainne and Sile a meaningful role on television and in life.

How to revive the Irish language.

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