How to revive the Irish language.

deise go deo wrote: »

A small band of speakers indeed, but growing, and the number of young people fluent in Irish, who have had their entire education before going to Uni through Irish is growing and will continue to grow. Rome was not built in a day, but the foundations are already down.
The Minority is getting bigger.

Your'e living in La La Land, just like the rest of them.

Other aspects of Irish culture are thriving.

Irish music & dance.

Irish games, the GAA is doing very well at the mo.

Guess what?

They'e not compulsary in any zone of a childs education.

No resentment for the taxpeyer & much enjoyment given to Irish kids, including my own BTW.

Iwasfrozen wrote: »

Rome wasn't built in a day my friend but language successful language revivals do not take 120 odd years from the foundation of the gaelic leauge. These sort of language revivals have been popping up since the begining of the state. Their numbers have waxed and waned over the years but have always remained under a certain ctritical mass. Maybe Irish society or culture is to blame for their failure. Or maybe it's the language it's self. I don't know but I do know with pretty high certainty that the same think is going to happen this time around.

Actually the progress of language shift is usually measured in generations, a compleat language shift such as took place in Ireland almost never happens, even here it took the best part of 500 years from the first time the then Kingdom of England set out to replace Irish with English for the process to be compleated, and it took several mass depopulations along the way to do it.

"But wait" you say, "these kids have been taught irish in their gealscoil, they will use it because they have it." That's all well and good but the number of adults who have gone to grealscoils is also below that critical level and when they leave they assimulate back into main stream irish culture. Even the activist one's who want to use what language they have to maintain their skills will find themselves very hard pushed to find new speakers to converse with outside of their current circle of speakers. You could even go as far as saying since an irish speaker does not know who is an irish speaker or not they must first greet themselves in english to be sure of mutual engagement which then sets the precedent of the conversation. Any dissension from this will be seen as such. Giving an "artificial" nature to the conversation.

Again your assuming that the number of Gaelscoil leavers will remain static at current levels, it wont, but lets not forget that the Gaelscoil movement 15-20 years ago was much smaller than it was now, the generation that came through the Gaelscoils even 10 years ago is much smaller than the one comming through now, by the time the third generation of Gaelscoil leavers come through the movement will be bigger again.
As for using the language, its called building a language community, its happening in many parts of the country at present.
Lets take Village X, in this village there are a hand full of Irish speakers, they speak Irish to each other and nothing much changes from year to year, then a Gaelscoil is founded in Village X, still nothing much changes, some years later the kids who started out in the local gaelscoil start leaving, many of them stay in the village, get jobs and in time start a family, now the Gaelscoil is still there and naturally enough they want to send their kids to it just like they were, except this time at least one parent also has Irish, so it gets used in the home as the child is growing up, to get the child ready for the Gaelscoil a Nionra is needed, so one is started, when they are finished in the Gaelscoil, obviously a new Gaelcholaiste has to be set up for them to go on and get their second Level education through Irish, so they set one of them up too. So here we have a new generation of young people who have gone to Irish Play school, Irish Primary school and Irish secondary school, with Irish in the home too, young people who grew up with Irish, made friends through Irish.
As they grew up youth groups through Irish got set up to provide activities for young Irish speakers, sports teams got set up that are run through Irish. Now we have a generation in Village X who have not just been educated through Irish, but who grew up through Irish, who socialise through Irish.
This generation may well still be a small minority in Village X, but they are their own Language community.

This is already happening around the country, its only starting off, there are only a handfull of areas that have Gaelscoils established long enough for a second generation to be comming through the school, but where there is, in places like Ballymun and Clondalkin, Loughrae in Galway there is already a vibrant Irish Language community that grows with each new year of kids that goes through the local school.

Thats how Irish is being and will be revived.

deise go deo wrote: »

But hey, don't let little things like facts get in the way of a good rant, god knows they rarely do. Oh and also, there is really very little to suggest that there is any kind of widespread dislike of the Language its sel.

It's an issue that deserves to be ranted about. I actually did state some facts in my post, including the fact that having Irish as a compulsory subject is getting the language nowhere. Having it compulsory does absolutely nothing to promote it. As a student especially, theres's few things that you can hate more than having an activity that you don't take interest in or need forced upon you. And I'm in no way ranting against the language itself - I've no problem with people speaking Irish, but being forced to do it is hardly promoting it nor is it making people speak it, or like it, even after 14 years of learning it. Don't you think this is a problem that needs to be looked at?

Your last point ''there is really very little to suggest that there is any kind of widespread dislike of the Language itself'' Well there's also very little to suggest that there is any kind of widespread like / love of the language itself either. At least not from what I've seen. Maybe more did actually vote that it should stay compulsory, but you have to take into consideration that only a certain amount of people voted - there's no opinions from schoolchildren, or teenagers. It was from adults who wanted their kids to study Irish without the child's opinion and that sort of age group. Not everyone in the country voted, and many of those ''Yes'' votes were purely out of national pride and simply for the sake of it, but that doesn't suggest that they like the langauge or whether they can speak it.

deise go deo wrote: »

Lets take Village X, in this village there are a hand full of Irish speakers, they speak Irish to each other and nothing much changes from year to year, then a Gaelscoil is founded in Village X, still nothing much changes, some years later the kids who started out in the local gaelscoil start leaving, many of them stay in the village, get jobs and in time start a family, now the Gaelscoil is still there and naturally enough they want to send their kids to it just like they were, except this time at least one parent also has Irish, so it gets used in the home as the child is growing up, to get the child ready for the Gaelscoil a Nionra is needed, so one is started, when they are finished in the Gaelscoil, obviously a new Gaelcholaiste has to be set up for them to go on and get their second Level education through Irish, so they set one of them up too. So here we have a new generation of young people who have gone to Irish Play school, Irish Primary school and Irish secondary school, with Irish in the home too, young people who grew up with Irish, made friends through Irish.
As they grew up youth groups through Irish got set up to provide activities for young Irish speakers, sports teams got set up that are run through Irish. Now we have a generation in Village X who have not just been educated through Irish, but who grew up through Irish, who socialise through Irish.
This generation may well still be a small minority in Village X, but they are their own Language community.

But there've been loads of Village Xs throughout the last 100 years. The numbers of actual Irish speakers in these places is actually diminishing.

Like, no matter where you are in Ireland, you will be surrounded by English. It's the 21st century. Villages don't exist in a vacuum.

Also, being raised through Irish doesn't equate to a diehard passion for the language. In my experience, a lot of people who go to Gaelscoileanna, speak Irish at home etc. aren't necessarily all that devoted to the language.

I wasn't quite raised through Irish, but attended an Irish speaking secondary school. I like Irish. I think it's a very interesting and unique language. I love that I was educated in it and that I can speak it fluently.

But honestly, I barely spoke it after I left school. There were Irish societies in college, which I always thought would be nice to attend at some point, but I never did. I just don't have the passion for it. I think if you look at the numbers of active members of these societies versus the number of people going to universities who attended Irish speaking schools or come from Gaeltacht areas, you'd notice that it's a pretty low percentage.

And finally, a lot of the numbers of "Irish Speakers" you hear about really don't reflect how much Irish these people either can use full stop, or actually use on a day to day basis.

deise go deo wrote: »

Yes, but thats Kevin Myers's job.
http://vimeo.com/12683771

No thats the job of every person with a valid opinion in a democracy, we all have the right to rant, including the pro compulsory Irish advocates.
Why is it that those determined to deny choice are also so eager to deny the right to even have an opinion?

laoch na mona wrote: »

make it the language of every state job and teach through Irish have a law saying multi national companies in Ireland have to conduct some of their business through Irish

That is the height of nonsense, maybe you should also insist that Google hire a given percentage of tooth-fairies as well!

conor.hogan.2 wrote: »

Because there is no wide resentment to compulsory Irish. Just because you hold this belief does not mean the majority of the country do.

And neither has there been over the last eighty years (well not vocally), and yet the language is stuck in limbo, many people say they want it, yet they can't be bothered to speak it, but its still a compulsory subject in school, right through to leaving cert.

Question: What ground breaking change can possibly ignite the Irish language? or are we deemed to carry on with this farcical situation wherby we want the language, and we want it to remain as a compulsory subject in school, yet we don't really want to speak it (en masse) :cool:

Iwasfrozen wrote: »

Irish has been trying to make a revival from the last 120 years to absolutely no long term avail. In fact the number of speakers has actually fallen hugely in this time period. What does that say about the future prospects of irish making a revival? That they aren't very high truth be told. And the type of comfortable living we have in the modern world makes drastic policy changes all the more unlikely.

Just because the revival movement started 120 years ago does not mean that the language stopped declining then, language shift is a process affected by the economic and social conditions of the populas. Just because some relativly well off people in Dublin and some international schollars took an interest in the language did not change the fact that the vast majority of its speakers were undereducated, unskilled poor and living for the most part in economacially depressed areas. It did not change the social stigma associated with the language that made native speakers ashamed to speak it outside their own area or social group because they saw it as a badge of poverty, these negative associations built up over generations took several more generartions to dissapate. The decline of the Language continued untill well into the 20th centuary, only comming to a halt around the 60s-70s. That does not mean that the language is not, or can not undergo a revival at any time in the future.

You say it took the English 500 years to replace irish but you and I both know this isn't true. Irish was largely replaced by english in the main in the mid to late nineteenth century and not by the english (because language shifts can not be implemented from the top down) but by the people themselves. They realised that English was the language of business and science but more importantly America and Britain. Two places they could travel to to escape the drugery and dream of a new life. These are the only sort of condtions a true language shift can take place under. When the population is misguided, uneducated and ignorant with either an inferior complex (to get rid of the native language) or a superior complex (to bring it back)

They realised English was the language of Business and Science? I wounder how that happened, oh right, Catholic's who for the most part were Irish speakers were not allowed own property or run a business, science, the Irish speaking ruleing class was destroyed and the system of learning they supported through patronage was destroyed with them. Tell me, was it not the then English Monarchy that did that?

"learing a new language brings many benifites to chuldren and adults. It even holds back alzheimer's."

Well thats what the people who have researched second language learning have found, if you don't believe them, I hope you have something to base that opinion on.

That's the thing I'm not assuming, I've deduced. I believe the gaelscoil movement has a critical limit beyond which it will not grow because of

1. Lack of government interest.
2. Public apathy. And even down right opposition in some quarters.
3. Union opposition. "My irish isn't good enough to teach in irish and I don't want to retrain." Though not in as many words. :P

You don't believe the gaelscoil movement will continue to grow? Even though the govenrment has already announced there will be several new Gaelscoils and Gaelcholaistí opening over the next 5 years.

As for public apathy, if the public is so apathetic, how has the Gaelscoil movement grown so fast over the last 40 years? Why has it continued to grow even in the face of Government oppisition, why are Gaelscoils oversubscribed all around the country? Why are there ongoing campaigns for new Gaelscoileanna in around 15 places in the country.

As for Unions, can you find even one single sourse to show that there is or ever has been union opposition to Gaelscoileanna?



Im sorry, but your 'deduction' seems to be baseless. Anything you have claimed above could have been said 20 years ago, Gaelscoil movement has grown since then, and will continue to grow, that you cant see this is bizzare.

The gaeltacht has been dying out since the beginning of the state this represents a long term population decline and language shift. What you are forgetting is that ambitious young people tend to not stay in their rural homelands. A huge amount try to make their way in the big smoke. This is evident if you look at the age demographics of Dublin. This is a huge problem for the gealgeoir movement becuase it scatters a relatively small number of irish speakers amongst a muge larger number of purely english speakers. This will only result in one thing. An "artificialisation" of the language occurs through the process that i described in my last post.

Actually what occures, and is occuring here, just as it has in Wales or anywhere else there is a minority language is that new urban language communities are formed. Nothing artificial about people continuing to speak their native language when they move away from home and establishing networks to facilliate that in their new home.

Villages are not the way to go to revive irish. If you want to have any hope at all you must conquer the alpha city in this country. Culture moves from urban to rural not the other way around. But then that would mean cutting off all that lucrative money the gaeltachts get for doing nothing. Which will lead to economic decline and futher population shift from the west. Scattering the irish speakers more. It's a vicious circle.

Village was a metaphore, as already mentioned the same process is already taking place in Dublin, as it has in Belfast. A minority language does not need to 'conquer the alpha city' to survive and grow. Thats just more baseless nonsence.

conor.hogan.2 wrote: »

We are never (ever, ever) going to speak Irish en masse. That is not a goal (of anyone?)

But surely if Irish is compulsory in school then the aim is to get everybody to speak Irish? Yes? Possibly in the same way as the Danes speak Danish, or the Norwegians speak Norwegian? And if its not the aim to get everybody speaking Irish en masse, then what is the aim of the Irish language lobby? and I ask this genuinely, and with the backdrop of mandatory Irish in school.

conor.hogan.2 wrote: »

No it is to get everybody able to know some Irish.

But sure many students leave school without a word of Irish, even after 14 years of being taught it. With the way its currently taught, there'll never be a significant number of competent speakers of it. Even those who can speak Irish well or even fluently in rare cases simply don't because it's simply of no benefit to them. It's method of teaching has to change if the government wants everybody to know some Irish. It's like asking Brits to speak Irish. Irish may be our native language, but English is our primary language for business, commerce, everyday communication etc. I never hear anybody speak Irish out on the street. Even if we all could speak Irish, how does it actually benefit the country internationally?

conor.hogan.2 wrote: »

Stop talking nonsensical hyperbole. They do not leave with no Irish many leave without being fluent or even able to have anything above a basic broken conversation but they do know a lot of irish when prodded to remember.

It is not a either/or choice. Of course we will continue to use English for the vast vast vast majority of out time and the majority of people will only speak English.

Even those who leave knowing ''a lot'' of Irish words aren't necessarily fluent nor good at speaking it, so it's hugely wasteful after all those of years of being in contact with it. Even in a broken / faulty education system, you'd think that most students would at least be competent enough with the language after 14 years. If not, then there's absolutley no point in keeping it compulsory aside from those who show interest and commitment to the language. Other students should be let learn a subject which is of more relevance and interest to them, but they can't. Which is why I referred to Ireland's education system as broken and faulty.

conor.hogan.2 wrote: »

This has changed. Oral and Aural is now worth 50% so give it a while and speaking will improve.

I left school without being able to hold any decent conversation in Irish and my French was much worse and that class was basically all about speaking and basic things like essays using basic phrases and stuff. But if I was doing the LC now I would be concentrating on speaking/hearing as it is worth 50% of the grade and being good in this gives you an edge in essays etc in the other 50%

You have 6 (or more) other subjects to choose in the LC...

I doubt the new scheme will improve it's fluency or skill - it only puts more emphasis on the oral exam. After coming out of it, the student will simply say ''don't have to speak Irish again. yay!'' and from then on forget more and more of pronounciations, meanings of words etc as time goes by. The whole thing just puts more emphasis on the exam, not the student's future ability to speak it. Also, the exact same things are taught for the oral, such as greeting, family, your area and basic such and such. It's just worth a few more %.

You have 6 or more other subjects to choose, but Irish is a compulsory one, which it shouldn't be. Students unfortunately have to sacrifice valuable time from other subjects for Irish, which will be of no relevance to them in the future. If I had the option, I'd do something more practical like engineering for my LC instead, because that's among my choices for college courses, not Arts which needs Irish language skills... Because Irish is compulsory for the LC, even though it's not relevant to me, I have to sacrifice time from studying Maths and the other important ones - one's that I'll actaully need to get into my desired courses, for one which I have no need for, which therefore jeapordises my other results. It's very frustrating.

conor.hogan.2 wrote: »

I think you are wrong, obviously the new scheme will improve spoken Irish in students. Not that that will translate to them using it after school, that is different altogether.

Most students do 7 subjects. You only need 6 honors. Drop down to pass Irish and if you can not do 6 honors and pass OL Irish then forget Engineering

It might compel students to memeorize for the oral exam more, but that's about it. They'll memeorize phrases from their Irish textbook and spit them back out in the oral. Once they walk out of the exam they'll forget most of their Irish, just like a lot of peope would forget information walking out of any exam. Memorizing it doesn't mean that you actually know the stuff. For example I could memorize a maths formula and do the sum correctly in the exam, yet doesn't mean I actually understand it. So there's obviously no point then bring it up to 40% if it's just for the exam and not to improve the student's future competence in Irish.

let it die