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M6 - is the Galway Bypass necessary? (thread split)

  • 27-08-2011 4:07pm
    #1
    galwaycyclist
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 2,912 ✭✭✭


    Split from the Galway Outer Bypass thread ~ Tremelo
    dubhthach wrote: »
    Tbh I don't see what any of this has to do with the Outer bypass. Stay on topic folks.

    I accept that it is part of a debate that trancends the outer bypass. Bit it is still central to its purpose. The question is whether the bypass is needed to divert traffic as part of holistic strategy designed to provide a balanced transport infrastructure. Or wether the bypass is "needed" to divert traffic so that certain people can have the "freedom" to drive at unlawful speeds on city streets for a greater proportion of the day than is currently available to them.

    So far the views expressed here would appear to favour the latter purpose. Please forgive me if I over interpret.

    If that is the purpose of its supporters, then clearly the outer bypass is something to be vigorously opposed.

    But yeah if you want me to drop it then consider it dropped
    Tagged:


«134567

Comments

  • #2
    CerebralCortex
    Registered Users Posts: 3,809 ✭✭✭CerebralCortex


    galwaycyclist wrote: »
    I accept that it is part of a debate that trancends the outer bypass. Bit it is still central to its purpose. The question is whether the bypass is needed to divert traffic as part of holistic strategy designed to provide a balanced transport infrastructure. Or wether the bypass is "needed" to divert traffic so that certain people can have the "freedom" to drive at unlawful speeds on city streets for a greater proportion of the day than is currently available to them.

    So far the views expressed here would appear to favour the latter purpose. Please forgive me if I over interpret.

    If that is the purpose of its supporters, then clearly the outer bypass is something to be vigorously opposed.

    But yeah if you want me to drop it then consider it dropped

    I think you are suffering from confirmation bias on this one. I was in Galway city yesterday evening coming from Moycullen on the N59. The traffic was cruel, whether it was from the lights or heavy traffic going west over the bridge, I'm not sure but the traffic was too heavy for that time of day so close to the city centre when most retail is beginning to close.


  • #3
    spacetweek
    Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators Posts: 5,144 Mod ✭✭✭✭spacetweek


    galwaycyclist wrote: »
    So far the views expressed here would appear to favour the latter purpose. Please forgive me if I over interpret.

    If that is the purpose of its supporters, then clearly the outer bypass is something to be vigorously opposed.
    The purpose as I see it is to enable a widespread roll-out of bus lanes citywide and a major expansion of the bus service.


  • #4
    Iwannahurl
    Closed Accounts Posts: 8,156 ✭✭✭Iwannahurl


    If that is true, then a GCOB would be welcome.

    However, how can we be sure -- in the Irish "planning" context -- that the real purpose of the GCOB is not to provide more opportunities for speculators and developers in the future?

    Large-scale developments such as the controversial plans for Ceannt Station might not get the go-ahead in future because of traffic concerns.

    If a GCOB took a substantial amount of traffic out of the city centre, giving scope for new high-density development, would the result not be the generation of new city centre traffic?

    Likewise, given the developer-led "planning" that featured elsewhere in this country during the Celtic Casino years, is it not also likely that the lands around a GCOB would be targeted by developers and speculators?

    Can Irish "planners" and politicians be trusted to take a long-term sustainable view?


  • #5
    L1011
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 69,537 ✭✭✭✭L1011


    Iwannahurl wrote: »
    Likewise, given the developer-led "planning" that featured elsewhere in this country during the Celtic Casino years, is it not also likely that the lands around a GCOB would be targeted by developers and speculators?

    By making it motorway (as has been suggested - this is why the existing M6 ends where the GCOB would split off and drops to N6) development could not ribbon it. The NRA finally got wise to using this as a prevention mechanism some time ago.


  • #6
    spacetweek
    Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators Posts: 5,144 Mod ✭✭✭✭spacetweek


    Iwannahurl wrote: »
    If a GCOB took a substantial amount of traffic out of the city centre, giving scope for new high-density development, would the result not be the generation of new city centre traffic?
    What MYOB said - plus I'm not sure why you think high density developments in the centre of the city would increase traffic. If anything, they would reduce it. High density developments make it easier for people to walk to places they want to go instead of driving. The new developments would attract people from the immediate area, not from far away (which would require a car).

    Also, you seem to be saying that we shouldn't build the bypass because there might be issues with it - we can just legally bar those.


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  • #7
    Iwannahurl
    Closed Accounts Posts: 8,156 ✭✭✭Iwannahurl


    spacetweek wrote: »
    What MYOB said - plus I'm not sure why you think high density developments in the centre of the city would increase traffic. If anything, they would reduce it. High density developments make it easier for people to walk to places they want to go instead of driving. The new developments would attract people from the immediate area, not from far away (which would require a car).

    Also, you seem to be saying that we shouldn't build the bypass because there might be issues with it - we can just legally bar those.



    Perhaps I need to reconsider my use of the term "high density".

    In theory such urban centre development ought to reduce car use, especially since the Ceannt Station redevelopment plan is purportedly centred on a public transport hub. In car dependent Ireland, however, where we have a surprising number of people driving themselves or their children less than 1 km daily, I would expect traffic generation to be an inevitable part of any such development.

    And sure enough, the Ceannt Station redevelopment proposal includes provision for 2055 parking spaces, the majority of them residential and commercial.

    Two thousand plus cars -- lined up that number would stretch from Eyre Square to Clarenbridge. Of course we'd need a Bypass to facilitate such development.

    And of course, even while supporting a development that includes three times as much parking for commercial and residential purposes than for the convenience of public transport users, certain sectors of the car lobby, the commerce lobby and the developer lobby continue to insist that a key objective of both the GCOB and the Ceannt Station plan is to facilitate public transport needs.

    Why am I not overcome with post Celtic Casino gratitude and optimism?


  • #8
    ei.sdraob
    Closed Accounts Posts: 9,376 ✭✭✭ei.sdraob


    Iwannahurl wrote: »
    Perhaps I need to reconsider my use of the term "high density".

    In theory such urban centre development ought to reduce car use, especially since the Ceannt Station redevelopment plan is purportedly centred on a public transport hub. In car dependent Ireland, however, where we have a surprising number of people driving themselves or their children less than 1 km daily, I would expect traffic generation to be an inevitable part of any such development.

    And sure enough, the Ceannt Station redevelopment proposal includes provision for 2055 parking spaces, the majority of them residential and commercial.

    Two thousand plus cars -- lined up that number would stretch from Eyre Square to Clarenbridge. Of course we'd need a Bypass to facilitate such development.

    And of course, even while supporting a development that includes three times as much parking for commercial and residential purposes than for the convenience of public transport users, certain sectors of the car lobby, the commerce lobby and the developer lobby continue to insist that a key objective of both the GCOB and the Ceannt Station plan is to facilitate public transport needs.

    Why am I not overcome with post Celtic Casino gratitude and optimism?

    That got me thinking

    Would it not be great to have a road along the rail track right into the city center :)
    I extensively travelled the US this summer and one thing that struck me (beside not having roundabouts which was great!) is how one can quickly get in and out of large cities with interstates often cutting right thru the middle of cities such as Atlanta (population of 420K but has better infrastructure than Dublin, 5 million in metro area)
    And they also have this thing called a flyover, imagine traffic moving without having to stop like we do here on ****ing silly roundabouts that plaque Galway

    sorry for semi rant :D


  • #9
    Iwannahurl
    Closed Accounts Posts: 8,156 ✭✭✭Iwannahurl


    ei.sdraob wrote: »
    That got me thinking

    Would it not be great to have a road along the rail track right into the city center :)
    I extensively travelled the US this summer and one thing that struck me (beside not having roundabouts which was great!) is how one can quickly get in and out of large cities with interstates often cutting right thru the middle of cities such as Atlanta (population of 420K but has better infrastructure than Dublin, 5 million in metro area)
    And they also have this thing called a flyover, imagine traffic moving without having to stop like we do here on ****ing silly roundabouts that plaque Galway

    sorry for semi rant :D



    I'm afraid my experience of similar conditions in the US was quite different. I remember having to go on a huge freeway just to travel a short distance from suburban Sacramento to the old town centre. Absolutely horrible.

    Give me a relatively compact European city any day, with plenty of opportunities to walk, cycle and use public transport in comfort.

    That said, I think Stockholm combines it all very well. Serious roads, excellent public transport, cycle paths and extensive public parks all situated side by side in an accessible manner. It's called Urban Planning I guess.


  • #10
    ei.sdraob
    Closed Accounts Posts: 9,376 ✭✭✭ei.sdraob


    Iwannahurl wrote: »
    I'm afraid my experience of similar conditions in the US was quite different. I remember having to go on a huge freeway just to travel a short distance from suburban Sacramento to the old town centre. Absolutely horrible.

    Give me a relatively compact European city any day, with plenty of opportunities to walk, cycle and use public transport in comfort.

    That said, I think Stockholm combines it all very well. Serious roads, excellent public transport, cycle paths and extensive public parks all situated side by side in an accessible manner. It's called Urban Planning I guess.

    Ah the westcoast is different :D the amount of NYMBIsm there would make us look good

    im specifically referring to east board down to the south, the only time go seriously stuck in traffic was when cows managed to escape onto the interstate from a truck :eek:

    Being able to get in and out of city is great and having large shopping areas on the circular is even better with people being able to bypass city center altogether, but what are the chances of a Galway bypass now :(


  • #11
    antoobrien
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 6,106 ✭✭✭antoobrien


    From todays City Tribune
    AN emergency meeting of the City Council has been called for Monday night in an effort to put in place measures aimed at easing the ongoing traffic logjams that are now posing a threat to the commercial viability of the city.

    Business and retail outlets in the city are increasingly fearful that Galway’s headline position in the national traffic jam league will prompt customers to choose other locations for their main shopping expeditions.

    This week, one city councillor, Nuala Nolan, said that she had been contacted by a number of shoppers from the county area who told her that they would be making Athlone their main shopping destination, after being caught up in last week’s city gridlock.

    Yesterday, a deputation from Galway City Council including Mayor Hildegarde Naughton and Director of Services (Transportation), Ciarán Hayes, visited the Urban Traffic Management Centre in Dublin to view at first hand, the workings of the system.

    However the Director of Policy at AA (Automobile Association) Ireland, Conor Faughnan told the Galway City Tribune that the overall traffic prospects for Galway looked ‘pretty grim’ over the next couple of months.

    “Galway is a city with a very old infrastructure in terms of roads, bridge and public transport. The city has been left far behind in terms of what has happened in the likes of Dublin, Cork, Waterford and Limerick – and indeed smaller urban centres as well,” said Conor Faughnan.

    He said that 10 years ago, Galway would only have been getting the odd mention in terms of national traffic problems with AA Roadwatch, whereas today it was a headline city for congestion difficulties.

    Director of Galway Chamber of Commerce, Michael Coyle, said that the business and retail sector in Galway was ‘deeply worried’ about the impact of the ongoing traffic problems in the city. “This is a massive problem for all of us,” he said.

    Mayor Hildegarde Naughton said that Monday night’s meeting would be aimed specifically at putting in place a new traffic management plan by the City Council and the Gardai to tackle peak flow problem times and to establish a protocol for roadworks pinch points.

    “We just cannot leave things as they are and say we can do nothing. Of course the bypass is critical in the long term but we must put in place measures to tackle the problems we are facing week-in, week-out, in the city,” said Mayor Naughton.


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  • #12
    KevR
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,110 ✭✭✭KevR


    It says a lot about traffic in Galway when people would rather travel to Athlone where there are currently major roadworks on the busiest road in the town. Yes, there are some delays in Athlone due to the roadworks but they are minor league compared to Galway simply because Athlone actually has some extra capacity on its road network.

    CARMAGEDDON!


  • #13
    Chris_5339762
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 5,963 ✭✭✭Chris_5339762


    I used to live in Galway, moved to Dublin for work.

    I can say with certainty that I would never move back to Galway - the biggest factor in that being the traffic situation. At least in Dublin there are ways round the bottlenecks (usually a bunch of mini bottlenecks) but in Galway alternatives simply dont exist.


  • #14
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 0 ✭ [Deleted User]


    there are alternative routes......just they all blocked with traffic


  • #15
    Iwannahurl
    Closed Accounts Posts: 8,156 ✭✭✭Iwannahurl


    Deleted User wrote: »
    there are alternative routes......just they all blocked with traffic



    There are also alternative modes of travel over shorter distances.

    The routes are mostly blocked with cars, which negates the purposes of buses where there are no QBCs. Took me an hour to travel 2.5 km on the N6 this evening, and I could see buses stuck in traffic when they should have been sailing along in a QBC.

    However, I have never experienced such congestion problems when on the bike.

    The main difficulty with pedal power is lack of proper infrastructure, such as decent lanes/pathsand junctions that facilitate cyclists, compounded by hazards such as excessive free speed and dangerous driving.

    Dealing with such matters would be much cheaper, quicker and more sustainable than the (currently pie-in-the-sky) GCOB.


  • #16
    L1011
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 69,537 ✭✭✭✭L1011


    Iwannahurl wrote: »

    Dealing with such matters would be much cheaper, quicker and more sustainable than the (currently pie-in-the-sky) GCOB.

    Won't do a thing to reduce congestion. Trucks can't cycle, and a lot of the car traffic on the existing Galway "bypass" is heading to/from the N59 or the Coast road. Even if there was a massive modal shift from those who practically could do it it'd have a negligible impact.

    Galway is probably the most suitable city in terms of terrain and demographics for a Dublin Bikes clone to be started in though.


  • #17
    Iwannahurl
    Closed Accounts Posts: 8,156 ✭✭✭Iwannahurl


    MYOB wrote: »
    Won't do a thing to reduce congestion. Trucks can't cycle, and a lot of the car traffic on the existing Galway "bypass" is heading to/from the N59 or the Coast road. Even if there was a massive modal shift from those who practically could do it it'd have a negligible impact.

    Galway is probably the most suitable city in terms of terrain and demographics for a Dublin Bikes clone to be started in though.



    I included buses in my observations. QBCs, along with supportive carrot and stick measures, could have the biggest impact in terms of modal shift from cars.

    Any authoritative figures for the amount of car traffic, seasonally adjusted of course, that is only "heading to/from the N59 or the Coast road"?

    How much of this traffic could be eliminated by the provision of QBCs, Park & Ride etc?

    Every motorist switching to another mode is one less car on the road, so the potential impact would be directly proportionate to the actual amount of traffic that could be 'diverted'.

    In any case, how much better would this traffic flow be if a significant proportion of the traffic within the city could be eliminated? I understand that over half of trips within the city to work or education are 4 km or less. Council figures I think, based on CSO stats, but I don't have the reference handy.

    Trucks can't cycle, that's a given, but a lot of people say they won't cycle because of trucks. Galway City needs a HGV management strategy.

    BTW, what do the available data have to say regarding how much of the traffic heading to/from the N59 or the Coast road is composed of trucks?

    A Galway City bke share scheme may be on the way. If so, great news. Super way to promote cycling: more bikes on the road will mean safer cycling, and more cyclists will encourage other people to give it a go.


  • #18
    Chris_5339762
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 5,963 ✭✭✭Chris_5339762


    ANY aspect of Galways transport policy cannot be implemented without the bypass. For common sense, sanity, and whatever other reasons you can think of, Galway town is a bottleneck. It NEEDS a grade seperated way to get around it and get to various parts of it. There is TOO MUCH traffic in the city and there isnt the road capacity to provide any kind of modal shift to buses or cycling.


  • #19
    Iwannahurl
    Closed Accounts Posts: 8,156 ✭✭✭Iwannahurl


    Chris_5339762 wrote: »
    ANY aspect of Galways transport policy cannot be implemented without the bypass. For common sense, sanity, and whatever other reasons you can think of, Galway town is a bottleneck. It NEEDS a grade seperated way to get around it and get to various parts of it. There is TOO MUCH traffic in the city and there isnt the road capacity to provide any kind of modal shift to buses or cycling.



    That's too absolute, IMO.

    Let's just imagine for argument's sake that (a) all private car journeys of 4 km or less can be replaced by other travel modes, and (b) that a 1973-type oil crisis occurs overnight.

    Do you think that people would have absolutely no choice other than to hop into their car and drive alone to work or education?


  • #20
    dubhthach
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,284 ✭✭✭dubhthach


    Iwannahurl wrote: »
    That's too absolute, IMO.

    (b) that a 1973-type oil crisis occurs overnight.

    Do you think that people would have absolutely no choice other than to hop into their car and drive alone to work or education?

    I don't forsee Egypt and Syria invading Israel anytime soon followed by OPEC imposing an embargo on Oil exports to the US do you?

    Of course the prices in 2008 exceeded the previous peak price in 1980 when adjusted for inflation by over a third (after the fall of the shah), for several years before then prices exceed those of the period 1974-76 let the world didn't end.

    The average for this year alone is double that for 1974 when you adjust for inflation.


  • #21
    Iwannahurl
    Closed Accounts Posts: 8,156 ✭✭✭Iwannahurl


    dubhthach wrote: »
    I don't forsee Egypt and Syria invading Israel anytime soon followed by OPEC imposing an embargo on Oil exports to the US do you?

    Of course the prices in 2008 exceeded the previous peak price in 1980 when adjusted for inflation by over a third (after the fall of the shah), for several years before then prices exceed those of the period 1974-76 let the world didn't end.

    The average for this year alone is double that for 1974 when you adjust for inflation.


    Iwannahurl wrote: »
    That's too absolute, IMO.

    Let's just imagine for argument's sake that (a) all private car journeys of 4 km or less can be replaced by other travel modes, and (b) that a 1973-type oil crisis occurs overnight.

    Do you think that people would have absolutely no choice other than to hop into their car and drive alone to work or education?




    Let's just imagine for argument's sake that an oil crisis occurs, for any reason, with subsequent fuel shortages that have a major impact on the transport sector.

    The key question, in such an imaginary scenario, is: do you think that those people who currently drive alone to work or education a distance of 4 km or less would have absolutely no choice other than to use their car?


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  • #22
    dubhthach
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,284 ✭✭✭dubhthach


    Iwannahurl wrote: »
    Let's just imagine for argument's sake that an oil crisis occurs, for any reason, with subsequent fuel shortages that have a major impact on the transport sector.

    The key question, in such an imaginary scenario, is: do you think that those people who currently drive alone to work or education a distance of 4 km or less would have absolutely no choice other than to use their car?

    Imagining theoretical "what-if" scenarios aren't what this thread is about. It's about the Galway City outer bypass.


  • #23
    Iwannahurl
    Closed Accounts Posts: 8,156 ✭✭✭Iwannahurl


    dubhthach wrote: »
    Imagining theoretical "what-if" scenarios aren't what this thread is about. It's about the Galway City outer bypass.




    What bypass?

    Since none exists, then this thread is about something not far off "imagining theoretical what-if scenarios".

    What if Galway doesn't get a bypass for another 15-20 years?

    What if a bypass is never built?

    What if the bypass is built but its true purpose is to facilitate more traffic-generating and car-dependent development?

    The point made by an earlier poster was that "ANY aspect of Galways transport policy cannot be implemented without the bypass."

    I disagree, and one way of prompting consideration of alternatives is to challenge the assumption that most people have absolutely no alternative but to drive. That's bunk, IMO, hence my reference to the 4 km travel distance.


  • #24
    citycentre
    Registered Users Posts: 263 ✭✭citycentre


    Of course the bypass will be built. Then we can BEGIN to sort out the public transport / modal shift solutions that are truly pie in the sky until there is some road capacity to actually fit buses and cyclists on. Its the most urgent transport project in the whole nation and once the legal crap is sorted out once and for all it will happen immediately in the form of Dual carriageway as far as Moycullen Road and a much reduced in scale distributor road from there to Barna. Anyone who really believes that Galway can somehow make do without this project is really living in dreamworld.


  • #25
    Iwannahurl
    Closed Accounts Posts: 8,156 ✭✭✭Iwannahurl


    citycentre wrote: »
    Of course the bypass will be built. Then we can BEGIN to sort out the public transport / modal shift solutions that are truly pie in the sky until there is some road capacity to actually fit buses and cyclists on. Its the most urgent transport project in the whole nation and once the legal crap is sorted out once and for all it will happen immediately in the form of Dual carriageway as far as Moycullen Road and a much reduced in scale distributor road from there to Barna. Anyone who really believes that Galway can somehow make do without this project is really living in dreamworld.


    I already fit on the roads for the most part. Right now. Already. Nothing dreamy about it at all.

    As for buses, today while I sat in traffic for an hour to travel 2.5 km I noticed buses stuck in the midst of cars on a two-lane road. Personally I can see no problem with converting one of those lanes to a QBC...


  • #26
    galwaycyclist
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 2,912 ✭✭✭galwaycyclist


    Chris_5339762 wrote: »
    ANY aspect of Galways transport policy cannot be implemented without the bypass. For common sense, sanity, and whatever other reasons you can think of, Galway town is a bottleneck. It NEEDS a grade seperated way to get around it and get to various parts of it. There is TOO MUCH traffic in the city and there isnt the road capacity to provide any kind of modal shift to buses or cycling.

    I am afraid thats just daft in my view. In terms of providing space for cyclists there is a huge volume of existing road space that is wasted as a transport resource because it has been dedicated to storing parked cars. Bothermore, Fr Griffin Rd, College Rd most of the one-way streets in the city centre. The use of roundabouts in the city also represents the de facto exclusion of other transport modes such as cycling, walking and public transport. The absence of speed management in the city represents the dedication of road capacity to cars at the expense of cyclists, pedestrians and public transport users. Start enforcing the speed limits and that capacity becomes available to other transport modes. The use of impermeable, cul de sac based, road layouts represents the dedication of road capacity to motorised traffic by making walking and cycling needlessly awkward and inconvenient. Start knocking down walls between housing estates and the road capacity becomes available to other transport modes. The existence of rat running through local roads represents the dedication of road capacity to cars by excluding walking and cycling in loca areas. Stop rat running through Renmore, Tirellan, Ballybane and road capacity is immediately available for other transport modes.


  • #27
    L1011
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 69,537 ✭✭✭✭L1011


    Iwannahurl wrote: »

    Any authoritative figures for the amount of car traffic, seasonally adjusted of course, that is only "heading to/from the N59 or the Coast road"?


    There are traffic counts west on both roads from recently. I'll find them later.
    Iwannahurl wrote: »

    How much of this traffic could be eliminated by the provision of QBCs, Park & Ride etc?

    Zero. Its mostly through traffic. And a huge % of it is trucks, as I said.

    Iwannahurl wrote: »
    Trucks can't cycle, that's a given, but a lot of people say they won't cycle because of trucks. Galway City needs a HGV management strategy.

    They bulk of the truck traffic is on the existing "bypass", not in the city. Do you actually know Galway at all? Beyond a fleeting visit.

    Galway City Centre is barely part of the traffic problem. It has issues but they're not going to be affected by the GCOB at all. The problems are that the existing bypass is pathetically below capacity (D2 going down to S4 going down to S2 by the end, tens of under capacity roundabouts) and that Knocknacarra was built without any proper idea of how people were going to get there.


  • #28
    Iwannahurl
    Closed Accounts Posts: 8,156 ✭✭✭Iwannahurl


    galwaycyclist wrote: »
    I am afraid thats just daft in my view. In terms of providing space for cyclists there is a huge volume of existing road space that is wasted as a transport resource because it has been dedicated to storing parked cars. Bothermore, Fr Griffin Rd, College Rd most of the one-way streets in the city centre.

    The use of roundabouts in the city also represents the de facto exclusion of other transport modes such as cycling, walking and public transport.

    The absence of speed management in the city represents the dedication of road capacity to cars at the expense of cyclists, pedestrians and public transport users. Start enforcing the speed limits and that capacity becomes available to other transport modes.

    The use of impermeable, cul de sac based, road layouts represents the dedication of road capacity to motorised traffic by making walking and cycling needlessly awkward and inconvenient. Start knocking down walls between housing estates and the road capacity becomes available to other transport modes.

    The existence of rat running through local roads represents the dedication of road capacity to cars by excluding walking and cycling in loca areas. Stop rat running through Renmore, Tirellan, Ballybane and road capacity is immediately available for other transport modes.



    You are articulating what I am thinking, or trying to think.

    These issues rarely if ever get an airing in the 'debate' about the proposed GCOB. It seems to be a foregone conclusion: we have filled up the existing roads with cars, so now were fully entitled to have some new roads.

    We never cared much for cyclists, walkers and bus users before, but when we get a shiny new bypass we promise we will suddenly get all carey-sharey about transport sustainability and active commuting. Honest!



    MYOB wrote: »
    Galway City Centre is barely part of the traffic problem. It has issues but they're not going to be affected by the GCOB at all. The problems are that the existing bypass is pathetically below capacity (D2 going down to S4 going down to S2 by the end, tens of under capacity roundabouts) and that Knocknacarra was built without any proper idea of how people were going to get there.



    We can't discuss Galway City Council's anti-cyclist, anti-pedestrian and anti-public transport policies altogether in the past tense.

    As galwaycyclist alludes to above, Knocknacarra now has large swathes of cul-de-sac estates that are inimical to active commuting and the use of PT.

    Even as the Council insists that the panacea for traffic and transport problems is a GCOB, they are busy closing off suburban pedestrian and cycle routes, as well as making cycling more inconvenient in other areas.

    I was told only recently by someone in the know that another bunch of Rights of Way in Knocknacarra are about to be extinguished.

    Correct me if I'm wrong, but Knocknacarra is about a 20 minute cycle from Eyre Square. Closing off short-cuts will only make that journey longer.

    Likewise, large cul-de-sac estates impede access to bus routes. Making bus users walk further to catch a bus only serves to act as a deterrent.


  • #29
    Iwannahurl
    Closed Accounts Posts: 8,156 ✭✭✭Iwannahurl


    MYOB wrote: »
    There are traffic counts west on both roads from recently. I'll find them later.

    Zero. Its mostly through traffic. And a huge % of it is trucks, as I said.

    They bulk of the truck traffic is on the existing "bypass", not in the city. Do you actually know Galway at all? Beyond a fleeting visit.

    Galway City Centre is barely part of the traffic problem. It has issues but they're not going to be affected by the GCOB at all. The problems are that the existing bypass is pathetically below capacity (D2 going down to S4 going down to S2 by the end, tens of under capacity roundabouts) and that Knocknacarra was built without any proper idea of how people were going to get there.



    Seeing your use of terminology I would be willing to concede that you know a lot more about road infrastructure than I do.

    However, I would need to have more than your word about important factors such as the traffic counts and the proportion of trucks etc. Solid data and authoritative analyses would be more convincing. And better fuel for debate!

    If a "huge percentage" of through traffic on the existing 'ring road' is trucks, then presumably they would encounter less costly congestion if private car traffic was significantly reduced.

    I am interested to know what % of current traffic on that 'ring road' originates and terminates within a travel radius that could be conducive to transport modes other than the single-occupant private car.

    EDIT: By the way, I also include multi-modal commuting in that, eg Park & Ride, walk-bus, cycle-bus etc.


  • #30
    ei.sdraob
    Closed Accounts Posts: 9,376 ✭✭✭ei.sdraob


    Iwannahurl wrote: »
    Let's just imagine for argument's sake that an oil crisis occurs, for any reason, with subsequent fuel shortages that have a major impact on the transport sector.

    The key question, in such an imaginary scenario, is: do you think that those people who currently drive alone to work or education a distance of 4 km or less would have absolutely no choice other than to use their car?

    You are asking the wrong question, if such an "crisis" occurs then these people would not have a job/education to go to, but then again basic economics is often missing in arguments here
    Speaking of economics how many jobs are being lost due to the city not being able to grow? people not being able to get around to shops??


    while we are making doomsday style arguments, how will galway survive an asteroid strike? tidal wave?? carmagedon (oh wait)

    I swear the doomongery and lack of practicality from "environmentalists" is driving me up the wall, while you are proud of your 10% reduction in CO2 emmisions or whatever 10 more Chinese are rising to middle class (and dumping their bikes for cars) standard of living wiping out your "savings"


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  • #31
    TheUsual
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,288 ✭✭✭TheUsual


    I have to say that Galway traffic always shocks me.
    Dublin has the population but Galway doesn't.

    Two things may help :

    1. Multiple Park (for free) and ride around the city for free, where the council pay for short-hop buses to act like the Luas in Dublin (every 10 minutes). Bus lanes may be a problem, maybe a new bridge and a one-way traffic system like Cork are the answer.

    2. Get some driving instructors to teach people how to use roundabouts. Galway is by far the worst town in Ireland to drive in my opinion. That and aggressive speeding for no reason on the bypass, and I have seen a lot of Gardaí stop speeders there.


  • #32
    Iwannahurl
    Closed Accounts Posts: 8,156 ✭✭✭Iwannahurl


    ei.sdraob wrote: »
    You are asking the wrong question, if such an "crisis" occurs then these people would not have a job/education to go to, but then again basic economics is often missing in arguments here



    It's a thought experiment. My point is that that arguments for the GCOB are often based on alleged lack of choice, eg people can't walk, cycle or use the bus. It is certainly true that there are barriers to these modes of travel, but it is not tenable to suggest that they are impossible. If a dramatic event occurred tomorrow that made driving impossible or just very very difficult, I think you'd find that people would not be immobilised. They'd find a way to get to their job or education.

    That's at the heart of the issue, IMO. At the moment, despite all the complaints, many commuters prefer to use their car, though many dress that up as "need".


    ei.sdraob wrote: »
    speaking of economics how many jobs are being lost due to the city not being able to grow? people not being able to get around to shops??


    "People"? Careful now! ;)


  • #33
    Iwannahurl
    Closed Accounts Posts: 8,156 ✭✭✭Iwannahurl


    ei.sdraob wrote: »

    while we are making doomsday style arguments, how will galway survive an asteroid strike? tidal wave?? carmagedon (oh wait)

    I swear the doomongery and lack of practicality from "environmentalists" is driving me up the wall, while you are proud of your 10% reduction in CO2 emmisions or whatever 10 more Chinese are rising to middle class (and dumping their bikes for cars) standard of living wiping out your "savings"



    You're missing the point, as is Dubhthach who thanked your post but did not acknowledge that the GCOB is itself a "what if" at this point in time.

    So are you saying that the Chinese justify the GCOB and Galway's astonishing levels of car use and dependence?


  • #34
    ei.sdraob
    Closed Accounts Posts: 9,376 ✭✭✭ei.sdraob


    Have you actually cycled in Galway? Or used public transport??

    I spend years cycling in Galway and would not wish it on worst enemy, unlike Dublin (which was pleasant to cycle on south side of city) in Galway it rains twice more than Dublin, often with galeforce gusts, and it is not flat either, and then there are the bloody roundabouts, why oh why is there a roundabout at terryland?

    And of course there are people who work in the factories but have to get home on the west side of town, it is sort of hard nowadays to move home remortgage etc

    And yes people do need to get to shops and businesses for an economy to function, was talking to a retailer yesterday who rolled his eyes at the driving rain outside and lack of customers who would not dare to take a trip in such conditions

    And then there are people who simply do not have the health to cycle

    I am not even going to mention the poor bastards who want to get around galway only to go onto Connemara and the West, for business or tourism

    As for buses, they are often overcrowded, smelly and at times/destinations full of certain loud "minority" who make bus commuting a miserable experience for all, and of course they all go in and out of town, no buses going across town

    Btw how would you propose to add 2 bus lanes on lets say the quincenteneal bridge? reduce traffic to one lane?? spend enough money widening the bridge spending as much money as the bypass bridge would cost?
    "People"? Careful now!
    Yes people, people need to also shop and reach recreations not just commute to/from work
    We are not all just some automatons in a Green Matrixian utopia were we should all be hooked up to a battery powering the robots
    We are people who just want to get on with our lives and are bloody sick of others dictating how we should live and travel our lives
    So are you saying that the Chinese justify the GCOB and Galway's astonishing levels of car use and dependence?

    1. No I think focusing so much energy and time on cutting CO2 is pointless as the rest of the world does not give a rats arse and want to live their lives, moving people to bycicles only to boast about reduction in CO2 is pointless when the Chinese build a new coal plant every week.

    2. do you have any figures to backup your claims about "car dependence" in Galway, and as compared to whom exactly??


  • #35
    ei.sdraob
    Closed Accounts Posts: 9,376 ✭✭✭ei.sdraob


    A question for Iwannahurl are you from Galway? Do you take some perverse pleasure out of suffering of people here??

    As seen from your posts here its obvious you are not here

    @TheUsual
    There is no plan, any attempts at planning in Galway get constantly knocked down by the Green lobby, this bypass should have been build 10 years ago

    edit:
    I dont know why cyclists are so against they bypass, considering it would take cars out and around the city out of the city, making it safer for cycling


  • #36
    dubhthach
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,284 ✭✭✭dubhthach


    There was also a proposal to build a new bridge beside the Salmon Weir bridge so as to improve flow at this choke point. The idea been that each bridge would carry traffic in one direction and that there would be wider footpaths, cycle lanes.

    The reality is that there are simply not enough river crossings, the vast bulk of all commuter traffic is forced onto either the Quincentenarial or Wolfe Tone Bridges.

    For example Knocknacarra has about 12k inhabitants let there is no employment in the area (apart from Hibernian offices and some retail), all of these people have to commute generally to east side of city (ballybrit, Parkmore etc.)


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  • #37
    TheUsual
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,288 ✭✭✭TheUsual


    ei.sdraob wrote: »
    There is no plan, any attempts at planning in Galway get constantly knocked down by the Green lobby, this bypass should have been build 10 years ago

    I don't think another bypass is the answer. Free quick buses for short hops and another bridge or two is the answer (in an ideal world).
    ei.sdraob wrote: »
    I dont know why cyclists are so against they bypass, considering it would take cars out and around the city out of the city, making it safer for cycling

    Cycling in Galway is a non-starter (apart from the rain). What if you have a bad heart or leg ?
    Cyclists are an angry bunch in my experience .. and yes I own a bicycle.


  • #38
    ei.sdraob
    Closed Accounts Posts: 9,376 ✭✭✭ei.sdraob


    TheUsual wrote: »
    I don't think another bypass is the answer. Free quick buses for short hops and another bridge or two is the answer (in an ideal world).



    Cycling in Galway is a non-starter (apart from the rain). What if you have a bad heart or leg ?
    Cyclists are an angry bunch in my experience .. and yes I own a bicycle.

    Well thats the thing if you go to the expense of building a new bridge why not complete a bypass then? The main cost will be the bridge.

    There is also an issue of space, there is none next to existing quincenteal bridge due to university buildings (brand new engineering building just poped up there)


  • #39
    TheUsual
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,288 ✭✭✭TheUsual


    ei.sdraob wrote: »
    Well thats the thing if you go to the expense of building a new bridge why not complete a bypass then? The main cost will be the bridge.

    See you have a proper bypass already, nearly Dublin M50 sized. Trust me once you sort the cause of the problem, you will see congestion drop by half.
    ei.sdraob wrote: »
    There is also an issue of space, there is none next to existing quincenteal bridge due to university buildings (brand new engineering building just poped up there)

    The Government has lots of unemployed people and cheap labour, now is the perfect time to get more bridges up. Maybe they need to slap a CPO (compulsary purchase order) on a site or too but it has been done before. Plus if you look at the M50/M1 interchange in Dublin they used the same space to carry the two roads.


  • #40
    dubhthach
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,284 ✭✭✭dubhthach


    The only viable bridge location is in Menlo which is the site of the bridge for the GCOB. There are no potential crossing points between the Salmon Weir Bridge and the sea, unless you cut a path through the Claddagh and use one of the Claddagh piers to join up with Merchan't road (beside the new museum) -- but that's pie in the sky.


  • #41
    Iwannahurl
    Closed Accounts Posts: 8,156 ✭✭✭Iwannahurl


    ei.sdraob wrote: »
    A question for Iwannahurl are you from Galway? Do you take some perverse pleasure out of suffering of people here??

    As seen from your posts here its obvious you are not here

    @TheUsual
    There is no plan, any attempts at planning in Galway get constantly knocked down by the Green lobby, this bypass should have been build 10 years ago

    edit:
    I dont know why cyclists are so against they bypass, considering it would take cars out and around the city out of the city, making it safer for cycling


    Where I'm from is of no relevance to this discussion, and is nobody else's business anyway.

    "Suffering"? Do you really mean that? Sitting in our cars is "suffering"?


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  • #42
    Iwannahurl
    Closed Accounts Posts: 8,156 ✭✭✭Iwannahurl


    TheUsual wrote: »
    I don't think another bypass is the answer. Free quick buses for short hops and another bridge or two is the answer (in an ideal world).

    Cycling in Galway is a non-starter (apart from the rain). What if you have a bad heart or leg ?
    Cyclists are an angry bunch in my experience .. and yes I own a bicycle.



    You might be right in the former, but you are demonstrably wrong with the latter. Galway City is already doing well on the cycling front (thanks to NUIG and GMIT perhaps, as well as community and official efforts).

    How many people with bad hearts and bad legs are commuting to work or education every day? BTW, depending on the stage of illness, cycling is a great method of secondary prevention of heart disease.


  • #43
    galwaycyclist
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 2,912 ✭✭✭galwaycyclist


    ei.sdraob wrote: »

    edit:
    I dont know why cyclists are so against they bypass, considering it would take cars out and around the city out of the city, making it safer for cycling

    1. The cycle campaign does not have a stated position on the bypass. This is somewhat curious as normally a bypass would be an obvious measure to improve cycling conditions in a city.

    2. If those in favour if the bypass want the support of other interest groups then they would want to start putting something on the table. Instead they want to keep the roundabouts, they are opposed to speed management, they oppose permeability improvements and seek to shut down existing access for cyclist and pedestrians, they oppose HGV management, they oppose tackling the one way streets.

    In short the intent of the GCOBs proponents appears to be to make the city more dangerous and inconvenient cyclists and pedestrians rather than less.

    Why would anyone expect the support of cyclists for that? Its a ludicrous idea.


  • #44
    Zubeneschamali
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 16,686 ✭✭✭✭Zubeneschamali


    Iwannahurl wrote: »
    Where I'm from is of no relevance to this discussion, and is nobody else's business anyway.

    Definitely not from Galway. so.


  • #45
    dubhthach
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,284 ✭✭✭dubhthach


    TheUsual wrote: »
    See you have a proper bypass alreay, nearly Dublin M50 sized. Trust me once you sort the cause of the problem, you will see ongestion drop by half.

    The M50 is 45km in lenght the GCOB is 21km's this about comparable distance between the "Mad Cow" and the N11.

    What more only the section from the M6 to just after the N59 is of Motorway/Type1 dual carriagway standard. All of the route west of this point is of 2+2 standard

    If you look at the distance of the "Limerick bypass" (eg. N7 from Annacotty via the tunnel to N18) it's abit short at 17.5km. Obviously Dooradoyle is outside of this ring road so the population within it not hugely different from Galway


  • #46
    Zubeneschamali
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 16,686 ✭✭✭✭Zubeneschamali


    galwaycyclist wrote: »
    Instead they want to keep the roundabouts, they are opposed to speed management, they oppose permeability improvements and seek to shut down existing access for cyclist and pedestrians, they oppose HGV management, they oppose tackling the one way streets.

    I think the bypass is a no-brainer, but I hate galway's roundabouts and I think urban speed limits should be strictly policed everywhere.

    I don't care about permeability for cyclists, but I don't oppose it. I think the best HGV control for Galway would be a bypass.

    So proponents of the GCOB are not the uniform anti-cycling bloc you imagine.


  • #47
    TheUsual
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,288 ✭✭✭TheUsual


    Iwannahurl wrote: »
    You might be right in the former, but you are demonstrably wrong with the latter. Galway City is already doing well on the cycling front (thanks to NUIG and GMIT perhaps, as well as community and official efforts).

    Both NUIG and GMIT are within city limits so cycling is not difficult. Try 5km outside the town. Or further.
    Iwannahurl wrote: »
    How many people with bad hearts and bad legs are commuting to work or education every day? BTW, depending on the stage of illness, cycling is a great method of secondary prevention of heart disease.

    Agreed, but you cannot cycle when the doctor says so, or you have a bad knee, foot, or back. Lots of young people can't cycle and cycling will not make them healthier. Without increasing the impact of their problems.

    (i have cycled for many years and appreciate the positive benefits - cured my athsma)


  • #48
    TheUsual
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,288 ✭✭✭TheUsual


    dubhthach wrote: »
    The only viable bridge location is in Menlo which is the site of the bridge for the GCOB. There are no potential crossing points between the Salmon Weir Bridge and the sea, unless you cut a path through the Claddagh and use one of the Claddagh piers to join up with Merchan't road (beside the new museum) -- but that's pie in the sky.


    Okay you are based in Dublin. Imagine a bridge on top of a bridge or road, it has been done before.


  • #49
    Iwannahurl
    Closed Accounts Posts: 8,156 ✭✭✭Iwannahurl


    TheUsual wrote: »
    Both NUIG and GMIT are within city limits so cycling is not difficult. Try 5km outside the town. Or further.

    Agreed, but you cannot cycle when the doctor says so, or you have a bad knee, foot, or back. Lots of young people can't cycle and cycling will not make them healthier. Without increasing the impact of their problems.

    (i have cycled for many years and appreciate the positive benefits - cured my athsma)


    Thanks for the last bit.

    I did cycle 5 km and more outside the town. Not always fun (though very satisfying compared to driving) but certainly not impossible, as some would like to portray.

    What proportion of the commuting population have any level of illness that precludes them from travelling by any means other than the private car?


  • #50
    TheUsual
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,288 ✭✭✭TheUsual


    dubhthach wrote: »
    The M50 is 45km in lenght the GCOB is 21km's this about comparable distance between the "Mad Cow" and the N11.

    What more only the section from the M6 to just after the N59 is of Motorway/Type1 dual carriagway standard. All of the route west of this point is of 2+2 standard

    If you look at the distance of the "Limerick bypass" (eg. N7 from Annacotty via the tunnel to N18) it's abit short at 17.5km. Obviously Dooradoyle is outside of this ring road so the population within it not hugely different from Galway


    I don't get your point. Dublin gets huge traffic and has the longest, widest roads in Ireland ?
    Of course.

    Galway has nowhere near the population, but has some really bad usage of what infrastructure it has. Get rid of the roundabouts, new bridge, park-and-ride, free parking. Sorted.
    Talk to your mate who designs Cork traffic because nobody is looking at Galway.


  • #51
    dubhthach
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,284 ✭✭✭dubhthach


    TheUsual wrote: »
    I don't get your point. Dublin gets huge traffic and has the longest, widest roads in Ireland ?
    Of course.

    Galway has nowhere near the population, but has really some bad usage of what infrastructure it has. Get rid of the roundabouts, new bridge, park-and-ride, free parking. Sorted.
    Talk to your mate who designs Cork traffic because nobody is looking at Galway.

    My point is that the Limerick bypass is of comparable length to the GCOB both also are fairly comparably urban areas though Limerick (within the bypass) is somewhat bigger.

    The only viable location for a new bridge in Galway is at Menlo where the GCOB is proposed. To access this you need to build the bypass. there are no other viable locations.

    For example between the Quincentential bridge and Salmon Weir you have university on one side and Bog/Retail parks (Suckeen) on the other.


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