M6 - Galway City Ring Road [planning decision pending]

KevR · 24-08-2011 2:23pm

A quote from the thread antoobrien's post links to:

For the 2nd straight evening it took me over 1 hour and 30 mins to get across town. I would be almost in Dublin if I had turned left instead of right!

It would be funny if it wasn't true!

These outrageous delays are not because of the roadworks; the delays are the result of a road network that has absolutely no redundancy/spare capacity. Road works are unavoidable, small delays are inevitable and understandable.

There should be enough spare capacity on the road network so huge delays like we are seeing now are avoided.

Remember last year when one carriageway of the N6 at Dunnes Terryland was closed for a few hours following a hit and run? The whole of Galway came to a complete standstill, tailbacks for miles in every direction and cross city journeys taking close to 3 hours. Only a very short section of road was closed (one carriageway).

dubhthach · 24-08-2011 2:26pm

KevR wrote: »

A quote from the thread antoobrien's post links to:

It would be funny if it wasn't true!

These outrageous delays are not because of the roadworks; the delays are the result of a road network that has absolutely no redundancy/spare capacity. Road works are unavoidable, small delays are inevitable and understandable.

There should be enough spare capacity on the road network so huge delays like we are seeing now are avoided.

Remember last year when one carriageway of the N6 at Dunnes Terryland was closed for a few hours following a hit and run? The whole of Galway came to a complete standstill, tailbacks for miles in every direction and cross city journeys taking close to 3 hours. Only a very short section of road was closed (one carriageway).

What's ironic is you'd get across Dublin during rush hour in less time I'd reckon. It used to regulary take me 30-45 minutes to get from Ballybrit to Salthill back in 2007 depending on whether I left before 5 or after 5.

antoobrien · 24-08-2011 3:48pm

dubhthach wrote: »

What's ironic is you'd get across Dublin during rush hour in less time I'd reckon. It used to regulary take me 30-45 minutes to get from Ballybrit to Salthill back in 2007 depending on whether I left before 5 or after 5.

I'm afraid there's no I'd reckon about it dubhthach, January 2010 my brother drove up from Gawlay and hit Dublin in the middle of the evening rush (about 5 on a Wednesday evening). He made it from M4 Lucan to my gaff in Killester in less than 1 hour (including the time he spent lost in various estates in Clontarf because he couldn't follow road signs). That's 23 KM (the way he went via NCR), the trip KevR mentioned is about 13Km

dubhthach · 24-08-2011 4:08pm

antoobrien wrote: »

I'm afraid there's no I'd reckon about it dubhthach, January 2010 my brother drove up from Gawlay and hit Dublin in the middle of the evening rush (about 5 on a Wednesday evening). He made it from M4 Lucan to my gaff in Killester in less than 1 hour (including the time he spent lost in various estates in Clontarf because he couldn't follow road signs). That's 23 KM (the way he went via NCR), the trip KevR mentioned is about 13Km

Well route I took from office in Ballybrit to family home in Salthill was 7km (Wellpark, Lough Atalia, wolfe tone bridge), was generally quicker then going over Quincentenial. Best case scenario of 30minutes that works out at average speed of 14km/h, 45minute trip and your averaging 9.3km/h -- funnily enough Google maps reckons you should be able to do it in 15 minutes -- at night or on sunday perhaps

galwaycyclist · 24-08-2011 10:41pm

dubhthach wrote: »

Well route I took from office in Ballybrit to family home in Salthill was 7km (Wellpark, Lough Atalia, wolfe tone bridge), was generally quicker then going over Quincentenial. Best case scenario of 30minutes that works out at average speed of 14km/h, 45minute trip and your averaging 9.3km/h -- funnily enough Google maps reckons you should be able to do it in 15 minutes -- at night or on sunday perhaps

So given that free traffic speeds are the biggest obstacle to getting more people cycling. And given that 44% of Galway workers live within 5km of work (eg a15-20 minute cycle). It is arguable that 45mins to get home is the price you have to pay for the lack of an enforced 50km/h limit in the city. Would you be prepared to accept an enforced 50km/h limit and even 30km/h on narrower streets and school routes if it meant you could get home in a more reasonable time?

antoobrien · 25-08-2011 9:38am

galwaycyclist wrote: »

So given that free traffic speeds are the biggest obstacle to getting more people cycling.

Where do you get that from - the biggest obstacles I found were:
(a) simply the lack of space to get a bike through all the cars (the lights at riverside are particularly bad for this)
and
(b)the idiotic set up of having cyclelanes as part of footpaths instead of on the roads (making them tarmac covered extra wide footpaths and dangerous for cyclists)

dubhthach · 25-08-2011 10:16am

galwaycyclist wrote: »

So given that free traffic speeds are the biggest obstacle to getting more people cycling. And given that 44% of Galway workers live within 5km of work (eg a15-20 minute cycle). It is arguable that 45mins to get home is the price you have to pay for the lack of an enforced 50km/h limit in the city. Would you be prepared to accept an enforced 50km/h limit and even 30km/h on narrower streets and school routes if it meant you could get home in a more reasonable time?

Sorry last time I look that entire route was 50km/h, if the Gardaí can't get off their arses and enforce the speed limit that's their problem.

L1011 · 25-08-2011 11:28am

galwaycyclist wrote: »

So given that free traffic speeds are the biggest obstacle to getting more people cycling. And given that 44% of Galway workers live within 5km of work (eg a15-20 minute cycle). It is arguable that 45mins to get home is the price you have to pay for the lack of an enforced 50km/h limit in the city. Would you be prepared to accept an enforced 50km/h limit and even 30km/h on narrower streets and school routes if it meant you could get home in a more reasonable time?

Since when have free traffic speeds exceeded 50km/h in Galway at rush hour? Has half the city been laid off since I was last there, oh, three weeks ago?

Its all 50km/h limits anyway

galwaycyclist · 25-08-2011 3:03pm

MYOB wrote: »

Since when have free traffic speeds exceeded 50km/h in Galway at rush hour? Has half the city been laid off since I was last there, oh, three weeks ago?

Its all 50km/h limits anyway

Free traffic speeds refers to the peak speed of vehicles in uncongested conditions. eg the speeds used in travelling from one traffic jam to the back of the next one. It does not refer to either the (unenforced) speed limit or the average travel speeds of the vehicle involved.

It is exposure to motor vehicles travelling at these speeds that is the major source of both percieved and actual threat for those road users outside cars such as cyclists and pedestrians.

ei.sdraob · 25-08-2011 4:07pm

antoobrien wrote: »

Where do you get that from - the biggest obstacles I found were:
(a) simply the lack of space to get a bike through all the cars (the lights at riverside are particularly bad for this)
and
(b)the idiotic set up of having cyclelanes as part of footpaths instead of on the roads (making them tarmac covered extra wide footpaths and dangerous for cyclists)

Dont forget

c) the weather, it rains double than dublin

d) hills, galway is not exactly flat

e) the large distance between factories in east and homes in west of city

f) roundabouts!

Yes I have spend considerable years cycling in Galway. never *beep-beep* again will I risk my life and be subjected to this wet/cold misery of this transport mode.

L1011 · 25-08-2011 8:19pm

galwaycyclist wrote: »

Free traffic speeds refers to the peak speed of vehicles in uncongested conditions. eg the speeds used in travelling from one traffic jam to the back of the next one. It does not refer to either the (unenforced) speed limit or the average travel speeds of the vehicle involved.

It is exposure to motor vehicles travelling at these speeds that is the major source of both percieved and actual threat for those road users outside cars such as cyclists and pedestrians.

I know what free speed means, thanks.

There are extremely few occasions where that can exceed 50km/h in Galway in rush how

KevR · 25-08-2011 8:32pm

Galway already has higher than average rates of of walking and cycling despite the fact it is one of the wettest towns in the country. And we still have chronic congestion!

I fully agree that we should encourage people to ditch the car and walk/cycle instead for short journeys.

BUT....it is naive in the extreme to think we will solve our transport problems by encouraging more walking and cycling. We do not have enough road capacity - this affects buses and cyclists also, it's not just motorists.

CerebralCortex · 26-08-2011 9:27am

KevR wrote: »

Galway already has higher than average rates of of walking and cycling despite the fact it is one of the wettest towns in the country. And we still have chronic congestion!

I fully agree that we should encourage people to ditch the car and walk/cycle instead for short journeys.

BUT....it is naive in the extreme to think we will solve our transport problems by encouraging more walking and cycling. We do not have enough road capacity - this affects buses and cyclists also, it's not just motorists.

I remember when I went to college in GMIT and beating the bus into town at peak times by walking(slight exaggeration) the traffic was so bad!

dubhthach · 26-08-2011 9:37am

CerebralCortex wrote: »

I remember when I went to college in GMIT and beating the bus into town at peak times by walking(slight exaggeration) the traffic was so bad!

When I was in secondary school I would often "Race" the Salthill bus into town on my bike. Obviously I take a slightly different route but generally I'd beat it. Awh the 90's them were the days

KevR · 26-08-2011 10:54am

When I was in NUIG (2005-2010), I had a part-time evening job in Ballybrit. I cycled to work during evening rush hour and I often used to be able to keep pace with ambulances (sirens on) going across the bridge and beyond.

Not at all funny, in fact it's a very serious issue.

antoobrien · 26-08-2011 11:05am

KevR wrote: »

When I was in NUIG (2005-2010), I had a part-time evening job in Ballybrit. I cycled to work during evening rush hour and I often used to be able to keep pace with ambulances (sirens on) going across the bridge and beyond.

Not at all funny, in fact it's a very serious issue.

Not as serious as the ambulances, but when I was in NUIG (98-05) I used cycle from Briarhill school, passing my brother & his boss in their van going to various sites on the west side of Galway. They left 15 minutes before me and I still beat them across town, so the traffic isn't a particularly recent phenomenon either.

galwaycyclist · 26-08-2011 11:15am

So several people here have posted first hand evidence that even for significant journies - Briar Hill in - cycling beats walking at rush hour. (Ps I agree on the footpath cycle lanes, the cycle campaign has been looking to have these removed for years and replaced in with hard shoulders - its even in the city development plan)

So why aren't more people cycling? Could it be that they don't feel safe on many of the existing streets where hard shoulders are not an option anyway?

If they don't feel safe could it in part be because of free traffic speeds? If the answer is yes then is enforcing the exisiting speed limits not an obvious, easily implemented anti-congestion measure?

galwaycyclist · 26-08-2011 11:17am

galwaycyclist wrote: »

the cycle campaign has been looking to have these removed for years and replaced in with hard shoulders - its even in the city development plan)

While I think of it part of the rationale for this was also to make space available for the emergency services

antoobrien · 26-08-2011 12:07pm

galwaycyclist wrote: »

So several people here have posted first hand evidence that even for significant journies - Briar Hill in - cycling beats walking at rush hour. (Ps I agree on the footpath cycle lanes, the cycle campaign has been looking to have these removed for years and replaced in with hard shoulders - its even in the city development plan)

So why aren't more people cycling? Could it be that they don't feel safe on many of the existing streets where hard shoulders are not an option anyway?

If they don't feel safe could it in part be because of free traffic speeds? If the answer is yes then is enforcing the exisiting speed limits not an obvious, easily implemented anti-congestion measure?

While I cycled in Galway traffic speeds had nothing to do with it (a good portion of my cycling was not rush hour and the majority of it was on roads with no shoulder or specialist cycle facilities). According to most people traffic is greater now that it was then (2005), so overall it will be slower not faster, so I reject the premise that traffic speeds has much to do with it. Indeed if traffic speeds has anything to do with it, especially given what I see every time I'm home, the people who fear this shouldn't be on the road unaccompanied i.m.o. because they simply do not know how to handle themselves safely in traffic.

to quote ei.sdraob, all these are contributing factors

c) the weather, it rains double than dublin (edit - I can confirm this one)
d) hills, galway is not exactly flat
e) the large distance between factories in east and homes in west of city (edit anywhere between 7 & 13 km one way)
f) roundabouts!

It should also be considered that there are a significant number of people for whom walking, cycling and PT are simply impractical for various reasons, e.g. for cycling & walking an injury/condition that prevents travel of greater than say 1/2 miles (if you've ever done ligaments you'll know how hard it is to walk or cycle). These issues are almost always ignored in these discussions in favour of the theory that people are simply lazy.

FYI as an example of it being impracticality, I stopped cycling to college due to having to carry a laptop and not being able to afford a suitable bag which would prevent shock damage to the disk (I don't go easy on bikes, I have to get the rims straighted at least twice a year, even in Dublin where there are a lot less holes, ridges & kerbs to hit while cycling and the bags were a lot more expensive then than now), so I had to get lifts form people going into town instead.

This week clearly shows us that if not a majority of traffic entering the city, there is a very significant portion of it that is cross town traffic. It must also be recognized that a significant amount (if not as I believe a majority) of the traffic contributing to the congestion are from Co Galway and beyond, so proposing PT & cycling initiatives for the city will naturally have a limited effect.

KevR · 26-08-2011 12:08pm

galwaycyclist wrote: »

So several people here have posted first hand evidence that even for significant journies - Briar Hill in - cycling beats walking at rush hour. (Ps I agree on the footpath cycle lanes, the cycle campaign has been looking to have these removed for years and replaced in with hard shoulders - its even in the city development plan)

So why aren't more people cycling? Could it be that they don't feel safe on many of the existing streets where hard shoulders are not an option anyway?

If they don't feel safe could it in part be because of free traffic speeds? If the answer is yes then is enforcing the exisiting speed limits not an obvious, easily implemented anti-congestion measure?

I always felt safe cycling in Galway. I never had a single near miss in 5 years of cycling 13+km per day.

I hated cycling though. Even in proper wet gear, 6.5km to work in the rain after a long day at college is a miserable experience. Then after working for a few hours, I had to cycle 6.5km home again in the rain. I have bad memories of cycling across town against the wind as well. It wasn't fun.

Walking is my main mode of transport at the moment. Driving is second. I have no plans to start cycling on a regular basis again. If it's within walking distance and the weather is ok, I walk. Otherwise, I drive - and yes, I would rather spend 30 mins in traffic in my car than 15 mins on a bike out in the rain (even in wet gear).

L1011 · 26-08-2011 6:30pm

galwaycyclist wrote: »

If they don't feel safe could it in part be because of free traffic speeds? If the answer is yes then is enforcing the exisiting speed limits not an obvious, easily implemented anti-congestion measure?

There's no problem with the free traffic speeds. I'd be willing to lay money that the 90% percentile free traffic speed in rush hour in Galway is below 50km/h.

The NRA's 2002 study didn't do Galway City unfortunately.

Enforce 50km/h all you want, the Guards will give up on it due to nobody to stop and GoSafe won't do it due to no revenue.

KevR · 26-08-2011 10:23pm

Stumbled across this:
http://www.galwaytraffic.com/UserMap.jsp

Same concept as the live traffic info on Google Maps.
galwaytraffic.com has average speeds though.

galwaycyclist · 27-08-2011 12:14am

MYOB wrote: »

There's no problem with the free traffic speeds. I'd be willing to lay money that the 90% percentile free traffic speed in rush hour in Galway is below 50km/h.

The NRA's 2002 study didn't do Galway City unfortunately.

The 90th percentile is arguably irrelevant. What is important is the peak speeds by those within the tenth percentile if they happen to be above 50km/h.

Also why restrict the analysis to rush hour? Unless somebody trying to avoid awkward facts?

L1011 · 27-08-2011 12:45am

galwaycyclist wrote: »

The 90th percentile is arguably irrelevant. What is important is the peak speeds by those within the tenth percentile if they happen to be above 50km/h.

Also why restrict the analysis to rush hour? Unless somebody trying to avoid awkward facts?

95th if you want. 90th is whats used for normal research purposes.

Rush hour because that is all that matters for congestion. Someone wants to make it cover 24 hours to support an obsession...

galwaycyclist · 27-08-2011 7:45am

MYOB wrote: »

95th if you want. 90th is whats used for normal research purposes.

Rush hour because that is all that matters for congestion. Someone wants to make it cover 24 hours to support an obsession...

Ah no as I recall 90th percentile is a criteria used to justify speed limit decisions. The result among other things has been traffic congestion, high levels of cyclist/pedestrian deaths and various other impacts-obesity etc.

So if I understand you correctly, people who wish to travel outside motor vehicles, outside of rush hour, and who wish a reasonable kevel of safety while doing so, are simply "obsessed" and have no entitlement to expect the support of the state?

L1011 · 27-08-2011 1:03pm

galwaycyclist wrote: »

So if I understand you correctly, people who wish to travel outside motor vehicles, outside of rush hour, and who wish a reasonable kevel of safety while doing so, are simply "obsessed" and have no entitlement to expect the support of the state?

No, you are obsessed with free speed.

dubhthach · 27-08-2011 2:34pm

Tbh I don't see what any of this has to do with the Outer bypass. Stay on topic folks.

Sponge Bob · 27-08-2011 4:46pm

Traffice backed up to Kelehans in Bushypark from the current bridge today.

Sponge Bob · 29-08-2011 11:13am

Everybody stay out of Galway next Sunday, 4th September. Don't come in here whining because you have been warned.

http://ironmanireland.com/local-info/

From Conamara, Ros an Mhíl, An Spidéal, Na Forbacha or Bearna to Galway City, County East and Vice Versa.

7:00am to 10:00am During these hours the only diversion available will be through Maam Cross,
An Fhairche(Clonbur), Cong, Headford & Cluain Bú (Cloonboo) Via the R336, R345, R483, R346, R334 & N84.
We Strongly advise planning journeys in advance so as not to require use of this diversion, due to the extra mileage involved.

10:00am to 2.00pm At this time the Galway – Bearna Road will have been fully reopened. Anyone wishing to travel towards Galway City Centre, Galway City East or Galway County East must use the Quincentenary Bridge as it will be the only bridge available .

From Galway City West to City Centre, City East or County East and vice-versa.

7:00am to 2:00pm The Quincentenary Bridge will be the only bridge available during this period.

2:00pm to 5:00pm The Quincentenary, Salmon Weir & O’Brien’s Bridges will be available.

From Nuns Island, The Claddagh or Small Crane to any location and vice-versa.

7:00am to 2:00pm The only route out of this area will be Via O’Briens Bridge (as Newcastle, St. Mary’s & Lower Salthill Roads and Wolfe Tone Bridge will be closed).

The only route into this area will be Via the Salmon Weir or O’Brien’s Bridge and Gaol Road (as Newcastle, St. Mary’s & Lower Salthill Roads and Wolfe Tone Bridge will be closed).

2:00pm to 5:00pm The Wolfe Tone Bridge will be closed during this time, but all other routes will be available.

dubhthach · 06-09-2011 10:48am

TheUsual wrote: »

I have to say that Galway traffic always shocks me.
Dublin has the population but Galway doesn't.

Two things may hep :

1. Multiple Park (for free) and ride around the city for free, where the council pay for short-hop buses to act like the Luas in Dublin (every 10 minutes).

2. Get some driving instructors to teach people how to use roundabouts. Galway is by far the worst town in Ireland to drive in my opinion. That and speeding for no reason on the bypass, and I have seen a lot of Gardaí stop speeders there.

Galway has the bulk of the population living West of the river while all the jobs are east of the River. There are only 3 viable river crossings (O'Brien's bridge is effectively only West - East, neutered for cross-city traffic), of these two are narrow urban bridges. The simple issue is lack of infrastructure in Galway. The current "bypass" was planned when the population of the area that is now the city (boundary extended in 1984/5) was around 40k. The population recent census is 75,414. In the last 20 years alone the population has increased by about 50%

M6 - Galway City Ring Road [planning decision pending]

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