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Why do some men commit rape?
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On the issue of consent, consider this scenario:
A couple go back to a hotel room, both with a few drinks, or not, as the case may be, and they start kissing and whatever, one thing leads to another, and they have sex, but the guy doesn't explicitly ASK the girl if she wants to have sex with him, and she doesn't SAY NO or STOP to him, and appears to be enjoying it, and then the next morning regrets having sex and accuses him of rape, since she didn't consent to it, is this still rape? I would say it isn't - but the law might differ on this.
I really think if it was made clear that saying NO or STOP and actively resisting was what made the boundary between it being rape and not, rather than this fuzzy "consent" thing, which is really arbitrary, and puts all responsibility on the man - as strictly speaking, the man should have to consent too, otherwise he can claim it was rape too.
I mean, if the girl said earlier in the evening, that she wanted to have sex with the guy in front of witnesses, and then he raped her in as brutal a manner as possible afterwards, he'd probably get off, even though technically he had "consent".0 -
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Catari Jaguar wrote: »I havent said all men in this thread at all. I read the entire thread and I posted back a few pages of what jumped out at me, that had no business in a thread about rape. STEM and whatever. I posted the exact comments that concerned me. Dismissal of a serious topic and a me me me.
That silences women. That stops discussion that helps protect women or alter society to make women (and men, gay, trans whatever) feel more comfortable. That is dangerous. Don't enable it. Shut it down. Report it for derailing.There's no me saying all men rape or you're all rape apologists. If any of you construed it that way, it's probably the bias you already have due to the anti feminist sentiment in here and labelling me as man hating feminazi blah blah yawn.
Was this not you?There's no men's right to not be tarred with a brush. Sorry it's true.That level of resentment, that level of blind hatred towards women I saw here
That is the ONLY reason I posted in here.
Where exactly in this thread?The past few responses to me have been measured and respectful debate. I am grateful, and a little surprised due to the majority of absolute bolloxology and vitriol I have been replied to with. And yea, that affects the response you'll get back.
Hardly. You were asked to provide proof for your claims. Why did that determine how you responded? Did you expect your worldview to be beyond critique and unquestioningly lapped up?Frustration born from some of the insanely inappropriate comments here and other threads here, and the double standards, sweeping sttatements etc is what I have issue wirh. As am sure any man without a vested interest in MRA bull**** propaganda cringes, ignores or also feels like banging his head off the wall or cry in frustration reading these posts.
MRA are an absolute joke and personally I have no time for that kind of tripe. Although, not for the first time in this thread you have thrown the MRA tag at those who disagree with you. If you read some other threads in this forum you would realise the vast majority of posters here think its bullcrap too. People who disagree with you are not MRA, that is an awful binary view of the world.0 -
Please quote the bit where I justified rape.Catari Jaguar wrote: »Holy ****. You are unstable.
Are you justifying rape and saying it's caused by women seeking equal rights?
Not what I said at all, and if you're reading comprehension is this poor, why on earth are you working as a teacher?God, rape victims just get over it, it's not that bad. You'd know, am sure from all the rape victims you know. This applies to male victims too?
No, again, if you re-read the other post you're referring to, I said people have no right NOT to be offended.You yourself say people have no right to get offended. So what are you getting so offended about in here and taking it so personally?
Attitudes like what? My belief that being raped isn't as bad as being murdered? That a serious assault can be as damaging, or possibly more damaging, to the victim than a rape can be?I'm gonna go out on a limb and say that attitudes like *this* is why some men commit rape.
I'm not saying that rape is acceptable, I'm not justifying rape. I'm pointing out that our society tends to hold it as being as serious a crime as other crimes which can cause more harm to the victim of that crime. Hardly a sign of a society that has normalised that behaviour.
Largely. But I'm afraid I don't recognise the definition of feminism as an "idea that men and women should be equal", reality hasn't supported that definition for quite some time.ancapailldorcha wrote: »I think Sleepy was regarding to the cadre of prominent, man-hating feminists like Bindel and Valenti as opposed to feminism, the idea that men and women should be equal.0 -
It seems fairly logical to me tbh.
If the act of rape is motivated by the desire to exert one's power, rather than satiating some uncontrollable sexual urge (which the experts tell us it is), wouldn't it follow that a movement that actively tries to dis-empower men, with quite some success, is increasing the motivation to rape?
Does playing violent video games trigger serial killers? It's the same argument IMO, which is a non-runner. Rapists rape because they don't care about the consent of their victim, their rationale for it is warped by their own psychosis into irrationality, using your example "Some women were mean to men so I will rape a woman to get them back." which a normal person doesn't jive with. If it seems logical to you, well I'm not sure what to say.0 -
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Even it was in reference to the most extreme of Andrea Dworkin's oeuvre I'd still call shenanigans TBH. I most certainly can see a growing backlash against the current movement and that doesn't bode well as pendulums tend to swing too far the other way, but I would not begin to seriously consider it influencing sexual violence against women.
Fair enough, I wasn't making that argument. I was just giving my interpretation. To be honest, it severely sticks in my craw that people seem to be addicted to having facile answers to complex questions and issues.We sat again for an hour and a half discussing maps and figures and always getting back to that most damnable creation of the perverted ingenuity of man - the County of Tyrone.
H. H. Asquith
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I saw a feminist pamphlet that stated "All Men Rape" and not much more. Anyone knows what this means?0
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MRA are an absolute joke and personally I have no time for that kind of tripe. Although, not for the first time in this thread you have thrown the MRA tag at those who disagree with you. If you read some other threads in this forum you would realise the vast majority of posters here think its bullcrap too. People who disagree with you are not MRA, that is an awful binary view of the world.
Oh absolutely. I follow the Men's Rights UK Facebook page and they seem to be addicted to moaning about left-wing politicians and feminism. There is a woman on the page who seems lovely. She just set up a Men's Shed with no help from anyone. Compare that to Milo friggin' Yiannopoulos who's tried selling locks of his own hair for $5,000.We sat again for an hour and a half discussing maps and figures and always getting back to that most damnable creation of the perverted ingenuity of man - the County of Tyrone.
H. H. Asquith
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It seems fairly logical to me tbh.
If the act of rape is motivated by the desire to exert one's power, rather than satiating some uncontrollable sexual urge (which the experts tell us it is), wouldn't it follow that a movement that actively tries to dis-empower men, with quite some success, is increasing the motivation to rape?
Definitely not. Feminism of any kind is not responsible. The only people responsible are those who commit the act. Nobody else. We all have agency and know right from wrong. Rapists are vile scumbags and would do it regardless of any movement.0 -
professore wrote: »On the issue of consent, consider this scenario:
A couple go back to a hotel room, both with a few drinks, or not, as the case may be, and they start kissing and whatever, one thing leads to another, and they have sex, but the guy doesn't explicitly ASK the girl if she wants to have sex with him, and she doesn't SAY NO or STOP to him, and appears to be enjoying it,
IIRC this is covered under the concept of enthusiastic consent. If you both appear to be having a good time and are mutually engaging then verbal consent is implied.professore wrote: »and then the next morning regrets having sex and accuses him of rape, since she didn't consent to it, is this still rape? I would say it isn't - but the law might differ on this.
Morning after regret isn't sufficient for a rape charge no, but if one side sticks to their story about how they didn't consent and there's enough evidence to build a case around it it's very difficult to prove otherwise. This is the ice down the spine scenario for a lot of guys.professore wrote: »I really think if it was made clear that saying NO or STOP and actively resisting was what made the boundary between it being rape and not, rather than this fuzzy "consent" thing, which is really arbitrary, and puts all responsibility on the man - as strictly speaking, the man should have to consent too, otherwise he can claim it was rape too.
I think people should be able to pick up on cues that their partner mightn't be into what's happening without being explicitly told no. Obviously the latter helps but it's shouldn't be the only thing in play. If you are told no but keep going, well what more needs to be said.
Consent is required for both parties as well, albeit it does tend to be invoked solely for women's benefit. Strictly speaking if you as a male didn't consent to what happened then you have as much of a right to a case as a women would.professore wrote: »I mean, if the girl said earlier in the evening, that she wanted to have sex with the guy in front of witnesses, and then he raped her in as brutal a manner as possible afterwards, he'd probably get off, even though technically he had "consent".
This is why court cases are so fraught and not at all helped by rent-a-mobs. Ultimately it boils down to "X said/Y said" and how convincing they can put across their case before a court. Sometimes the victim is the accuser, sometimes it's the accused.0 -
I saw a feminist pamphlet that stated "All Men Rape" and not much more. Anyone knows what this means?
You've been exposed to militant radical third-wave misandry and should treat any potential infection by treating people decently, humanely and as individuals rather than stereotypes. If symptoms develop please contact a healthcare professional.0 -
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I saw a feminist pamphlet that stated "All Men Rape" and not much more. Anyone knows what this means?
I doubt that very much.
I don't know any women who believe that, or who'd read that. I've never read that. However this anti male rape article is from Everyday Feminist.
http://everydayfeminism.com/2015/09/stop-joking-about-men-raped-by-women/
You're just trying to be inflammatory and controversial0 -
I saw a feminist pamphlet that stated "All Men Rape" and not much more. Anyone knows what this means?
Evidence that paper does not refuse ink.
Pots and kettles.Catari Jaguar wrote: »You're just trying to be inflammatory and controversial0 -
The only person that can ever be responsible for someones actions is the individual themselves. As social animals however, it seems wilfully ignorant to suggest that external factors don't contribute to the motivation an individual chooses to act upon.Its completely ridiculous. The only person responsible for a rape is a rapist.
Honestly, I wouldn't think it's a major contributing factor to the motivations of a rapist. However, I don't see any action of the feminist movement as reducing the incidence of rape. Does anyone? Is there anything that shows that the "teach men not to rape" message works?ZeitgeistGlee wrote: »Depends on what you qualify under the label of "feminism" and even then as Wibb's pointed out it's the same slippery-slope as "videogames cause violence" or "immodest clothes cause rape". To be perfectly honest while I don't agree with what a lot of militant third-wavers preach I don't think their preaching is a general trigger either.
I'd very much hope the same but I can't help but feel that feminism has contributed to a society that influenced the likes of Elliot Rodger. When young men are repeatedly being fed the message that there's something inherently wrong with their masculinity, where they're finding themselves to be systematically discriminated against and screamed at if they question that, I can't help but see that as something that can contribute to feelings of anger and powerlessness in young men.While I can certainly understand the anger/frustration/resentment that that kind of spiel generates, I don't agree that it inherently contributes to someone enacting a rape. Very many of us here will read it/be exposed to it but I would hope none of us will ever rape someone.
And while wanting to feel powerful in no way lessens or excuses the action of raping someone, psychologists tell us that it's one of the major emotional motivations behind the crime.
So, if feminism does nothing to prevent rape, but plays even a small part in feeding the emotions that can be behind it, it's logically contributing more to the levels of rape than it's preventing.
Arguably not as bad as murder? Arguably?Nah mate, I disagree with you pretty thoroughly here. It's arguably not as bad as murder given the person literally dies but the emotional and physical trauma is something which I think a lot of people underestimate. It's a complete violation in several senses of the word. It's honestly rather take a bad hiding from a group of fellas than to be abused by someone I trusted on a very intimate level.
How bad a hiding? One that leaves you permanently disfigured? One that leaves you with loss of motor skills? One that leaves you with brain damage?
I was quite careful in my phrasing for this very reason you're pointing out: most of us would rather take a punch or five than to be raped. However, just as there are scales of the damage that can be inflicted by an assault, there are scales of the damage that can be inflicted by a rape. It isn't as simple as Crime A is worse than Crime B.
I don't see it as a major cause but I can see it being more likely to influence sexual violence against women than to prevent it.Even it was in reference to the most extreme of Andrea Dworkin's oeuvre I'd still call shenanigans TBH. I most certainly can see a growing backlash against the current movement and that doesn't bode well as pendulums tend to swing too far the other way, but I would not begin to seriously consider it influencing sexual violence against women.0 -
MRA are an absolute joke and personally I have no time for that kind of tripe. Although, not for the first time in this thread you have thrown the MRA tag at those who disagree with you. If you read some other threads in this forum you would realise the vast majority of posters here think its bullcrap too. People who disagree with you are not MRA, that is an awful binary view of the world.
I'm going to stick my neck out here for a moment and say I imagine MRAs like feminists come in varying stratas and ideologies and that the less militant and radical ones have arguments that bear merit. I define myself as an egalitarian but would agree that there are areas where men's rights are lacking similarly to areas where women's rights are lacking. I'd generally dismiss the individual rather than the label to be honest.
Redpillers and their ilk can GTFO like radical misandrists however.0 -
When young women are repeatedly being fed the message that there's something inherently wrong with their femininity/ everything/ , where they're finding themselves to be systematically discriminated against and screamed at if they question that, I can't help but see that as something that can contribute to feelings of anger and powerlessness in young women.
FYP
And yet you despise feminism and can't see from any view where these feelings (as far back as the 1700s when the term first occured) stemmed from?
I don't understand you at all...0 -
What exactly did you fix about my post?
You recognised that it would have applied to women in the 1700s?
Maybe we can have a breakthrough moment for you here. We don't live in the 1700s, nor even the 1970s when your version of my sentence would have been undoubtedly true. In the 1970's, I'd have proudly called myself a feminist and, in fact, did in the 1990's.
The issue is, your version of that sentence no longer rings true. Women have every legal right that men have in our society and a few more besides. Every piece of research is showing that it's boys we're failing in education, young men who are faring worse in the employment market, young men who have poorer health, shorter life expectancy and higher suicide rates. It's men who are now the gender that are systematically discriminated against0 -
Honestly, I wouldn't think it's a major contributing factor to the motivations of a rapist. However, I don't see any action of the feminist movement as reducing the incidence of rape. Does anyone? Is there anything that shows that the "teach men not to rape" message works?
I think discussions around consent provided they are rational can be helpful, especially if they're targeted at age groups which can benefit from them. Honestly it depends entirely on the type of feminists you meet, sadly the loudest, most radical/militant ones tend to make the most noise but there are plenty of honest, decent feminists out there as well.I'd very much hope the same but I can't help but feel that feminism has contributed to a society that influenced the likes of Elliot Rodger. When young men are repeatedly being fed the message that there's something inherently wrong with their masculinity, where they're finding themselves to be systematically discriminated against and screamed at if they question that, I can't help but see that as something that can contribute to feelings of anger and powerlessness in young men.
It may contribute to those suffering from esteem issues but IMO that's still a few too many steps away from playing a cauastive factor in rape. Again it boils down to the type of individual who will do this inherently rather than the types of material which they justify it with.And while wanting to feel powerful in no way lessens or excuses the action of raping someone, psychologists tell us that it's one of the major emotional motivations behind the crime.
Sure, but there's a large difference between reading relatively anonymous misandrist tripe on the internet and being abused as a child which IIRC tends to be a common triggerSo, if feminism does nothing to prevent rape, but plays even a small part in feeding the emotions that can be behind it, it's logically contributing more to the levels of rape than it's preventing.
That's if you take the position that it causes no preventative measures, which I disagree with.Arguably not as bad as murder? Arguably?
Yes, arguably. A person who dies, dies. They don't experience the after-effects or have to try to put their lives back together in the aftermath and come to terms with it. Now you can very rationally say "I personally would rather live with the effects" and that's fair enough but fact some victims of rape commit suicide afterwards would make an argument for it not being so cut and dry.How bad a hiding? One that leaves you permanently disfigured? One that leaves you with loss of motor skills? One that leaves you with brain damage?
Maybe, I've never been raped and hopefully never will be but having seen the effect it has had on people who have I'd consider it. It's also a fact that very many rapes contain a physical assault element so you're dealing with the potential of lingering physical injuries anyway.I was quite careful in my phrasing for this very reason you're pointing out: most of us would rather take a punch or five than to be raped. However, just as there are scales of the damage that can be inflicted by an assault, there are scales of the damage that can be inflicted by a rape. It isn't as simple as Crime A is worse than Crime B.
True, but as a society we're frankly not fantastic (or at least as good) at dealing with victims emotional and psychological trauma as we are physical trauma. The stigma around mental health is still a thing sadly, which IMO makes rape a much worse crime than a standard assault. As someone who suffered from depression I like very many others have some not so flattering stories of people's reactions vs say someone walking around on crutches.I don't see it as a major cause but I can see it being more likely to influence sexual violence against women than to prevent it.
Well again, respectfully, I disagree.0 -
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ZeitgeistGlee wrote: »I'm going to stick my neck out here for a moment and say I imagine MRAs like feminists come in varying stratas and ideologies and that the less militant and radical ones have arguments that bear merit. I define myself as an egalitarian but would agree that there are areas where men's rights are lacking similarly to areas where women's rights are lacking. I'd generally dismiss the individual rather than the label to be honest.
Redpillers and their ilk can GTFO like radical misandrists however.
Totally agree. By MRA in my post I was referring to the nutty end of the scale as opposed to the important issues such as fathers rights etc.0 -
Totally agree. By MRA in my post I was referring to the nutty end of the scale as opposed to the important issues such as fathers rights etc.
Yeah I get you, one thing that bugs me is labels which should be decent end up corrupted by the most extreme elements that ironically end up not too different to the ones they vociferate against most strongly. There should be nothing wrong with calling yourself a Feminist or Men's Rights Activist on the basis you genuinely wish to address actual imbalances suffered but sadly most people seem the terms now and just react so negatively to them.0 -
Catari Jaguar wrote: »I doubt that very much.
I don't know any women who believe that, or who'd read that. I've never read that. However this anti male rape article is from Everyday Feminist.
http://everydayfeminism.com/2015/09/stop-joking-about-men-raped-by-women/
You're just trying to be inflammatory and controversial
So you're calling me a liar? Have the courage to fully commit to your personal attacks.0 -
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If only the misandry was limited to the internet we'd have far less problems. It's not though, the feminisation of education and our societies caving in to the demands of (and even election of, in the case of some of our politicians) misandrists is creating a world where boys are being taught that they're inferior to girls from an early age.ZeitgeistGlee wrote: »It may contribute to those suffering from esteem issues but IMO that's still a few too many steps away from playing a cauastive factor in rape. Again it boils down to the type of individual who will do this inherently rather than the types of material which they justify it with.
Sure, but there's a large difference between reading relatively anonymous misandrist tripe on the internet and being abused as a child which IIRC tends to be a common trigger
I'm sorry but I've yet to hear of a case of consent classes preventing rape.That's if you take the position that it causes no preventative measures, which I disagree with.
So the fact that some victims of rape commit suicide means all crimes of rape should be treated as seriously as murder?Yes, arguably. A person who dies, dies. They don't experience the after-effects or have to try to put their lives back together in the aftermath and come to terms with it. Now you can very rationally say "I personally would rather live with the effects" and that's fair enough but fact some victims of rape commit suicide afterwards would make an argument for it not being so cut and dry.
That sentence contains about as much logic as I expect from feminists tbh.
If I'm quite honest, I think we encourage rape victims emotional and psychological trauma. When we've conditioned people to think of a horrible experience that lasts a finite duration of time as being "as bad" as their life being ended, is it any wonder that some take their own lives as a result?Maybe, I've never been raped and hopefully never will be but having seen the effect it has had on people who have I'd consider it. It's also a fact that very many rapes contain a physical assault element so you're dealing with the potential of lingering physical injuries anyway.
True, but as a society we're frankly not fantastic (or at least as good) at dealing with victims emotional and psychological trauma as we are physical trauma. The stigma around mental health is still a thing sadly, which IMO makes rape a much worse crime than a standard assault. As someone who suffered from depression I like very many others have some not so flattering stories of people's reactions vs say someone walking around on crutches.
I'm not arguing that we should try to excuse rape, or play down the impact it can have on a victim. But I do feel that we over-play it's impact. I'm sorry to say I know far too many women (and men) who have been raped or otherwise sexually abused but I'm happy to say that all of them have recovered from the ordeal and lead normal lives today.0 -
Both movements damaged themselves in this regard imho. In the effort to be inclusive, feminism allowed itself to be corrupted from within. Instead of defining what feminism did, and didn't, stand for; instead of saying "Andrea Dworkin isn't a feminist, she's a man hating lunatic" the feminist movement tried to be all things to all women and allowed the misandrists and nutters to become the spokespeople for the movement.ZeitgeistGlee wrote: »Yeah I get you, one thing that bugs me is labels which should be decent end up corrupted by the most extreme elements that ironically end up not too different to the ones they vociferate against most strongly. There should be nothing wrong with calling yourself a Feminist or Men's Rights Activist on the basis you genuinely wish to address actual imbalances suffered but sadly most people seem the terms now and just react so negatively to them.
The MRA's? Well, I think most people interested in Men's Rights abandoned that label to the lunatics pretty quickly. Personally, I've never felt that unilateral movements are the solution to inequality issues. It's easier to balance a scale by removing weights from both sides than it is to keep adding unmeasurable ones to each side.0 -
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ZeitgeistGlee wrote: »I'm going to stick my neck out here for a moment and say I imagine MRAs like feminists come in varying stratas and ideologies and that the less militant and radical ones have arguments that bear merit. I define myself as an egalitarian but would agree that there are areas where men's rights are lacking similarly to areas where women's rights are lacking. I'd generally dismiss the individual rather than the label to be honest.
Redpillers and their ilk can GTFO like radical misandrists however.
Pretty much this
Strange how many feminists can simultaneously sustain the " not all feminists" and "all Mras are misogynists" arguement
Did I say strange- I meant hypocritical0 -
If only the misandry was limited to the internet we'd have far less problems. It's not though, the feminisation of education and our societies caving in to the demands of (and even election of, in the case of some of our politicians) misandrists is creating a world where boys are being taught that they're inferior to girls from an early age.
I think you're exaggerating a bit now. Certainly there can be an argument had about the role, lack of and benefits to men within the teaching ranks, along with another about quotas but to say boys are being taught they're inferior is a stretch.I'm sorry but I've yet to hear of a case of consent classes preventing rape.
If the consent class prevented a rape why would there be a case about it? Logically you've equipped someone with the tools they need to prevent rape who didn't have them before so now they're part of ubiquity. That was my whole point to Catari about preventing future rapes by giving young people the cues about how to have sexual intimacy in the first place.So the fact that some victims of rape commit suicide means all crimes of rape should be treated as seriously as murder?
That sentence contains about as much logic as I expect from feminists tbh.
What exactly do you want me to say? They're both awful crimes, the worst ones an individual can enact. We generally hold murder to be the worst crime because it involves the taking of a life for which there is no return, for some rape victims what happened to them is so bad their lives are effectively ended. Trying to make it into some kind of competition is frankly perverse.If I'm quite honest, I think we encourage rape victims emotional and psychological trauma. When we've conditioned people to think of a horrible experience that lasts a finite duration of time as being "as bad" as their life being ended, is it any wonder that some take their own lives as a result?
What? Do you understand the kinds of long-term effects that comes from psychological trauma? If someone's trauma lasts their entire life that's finite but it's still their entire life. You go through treatment and try to frame it in such a way you can live a life without it being there too intrusively but you don't just wake up one morning and suddenly be back to where you were before it all happened. And I'm just talking about depression there, if you're raped every interaction you have with other human being changes.I'm not arguing that we should try to excuse rape, or play down the impact it can have on a victim. But I do feel that we over-play it's impact. I'm sorry to say I know far too many women (and men) who have been raped or otherwise sexually abused but I'm happy to say that all of them have recovered from the ordeal and lead normal lives today.
How exactly are we overplaying it? I dare you to go to one of those victims you supposedly know and ask them if you think there should be a socially acceptable time-limit on how long they're "entitled" to be affected by it. Hell you might even get to make the argument afterwards about whether a bad hiding is worse than a rape. Likewise how well do you know them that you can say they've recovered from it because it's not the kind of thing a lot of people let others in on. Depression suffered learn to smile and be part of a group while being miserable inside because of how we'd get treated if we let it show.
Frankly mate before I thought you were just someone who'd phrased a reasonable point poorly, now it seems you're just another hardcore loony albeit from the other side of the fence.0 -
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if the consent class prevented a rape why would there be a case about it? Logically you've equipped someone with the tools they need to prevent rape who didn't have them before so now they're part of ubiquity. That was my whole point to Catari about preventing future rapes by giving young people the cues about how to have sexual intimacy in the first place.
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You are attempting to prove the impossible( a negative ) , equally one could suggest that attending a ballet class might have prevented a rape , hence by deduction , men should all attend ballet classes.0 -
Catari Jaguar wrote: »You really believe youre right and that is frightening.
As has been pointed out by numerous posters already - self-awareness clearly isn't your forté.Catari Jaguar wrote: »I think the handful posting here denying rape culture really highlight that they 1. Don't know what it is and 2. Are resistance to any change to society (which is at the core of MRA)
Your insistence of what you term a "rape culture" could be applied to literally any interaction or activity which influences human behaviour. Anything. You name it, it can be perceived to contribute to rape culture. Nothing is just influenced by culture any more, it's all part of rape culture. Everything.Catari Jaguar wrote: »There's no men's right to not be tarred with a brush. Sorry it's true.
Channeling your own mantra: It's a ****ing COMMANDMENT to begin with:
2464 The eighth commandment forbids misrepresenting the truth in our relations with others. This moral prescription flows from the vocation of the holy people to bear witness to their God who is the truth and wills the truth. Offenses against the truth express by word or deed a refusal to commit oneself to moral uprightness: they are fundamental infidelities to God and, in this sense, they undermine the foundations of the covenantCatari Jaguar wrote: »It's thrown around that women fake claims. Is that responded to with "prove it?" as well?
I have no problem with calling bullshít where I see it:One eyed Jack wrote: »Look I hate it when these sorts of things come up, because false allegations are exceptionally rare, and even then, they're not automatically going to ruin anyone's life. That's only one possibility, and even then it's dependent upon the circumstances of the case.Catari Jaguar wrote: »You know what's worse than being accused of rape? ACTUALLY BEING RAPED.
I can only speak from personal experience, but having experienced both, being falsely accused of rape, was multiples far worse for me personally than having been raped. You know why? Because at least when I was raped, it happened behind closed doors. I could still go out in public and nobody knew. They would treat me like a normal person. I had more control over who knew and who didn't know. I knew I wasn't responsible for what happened to me.
When I was falsely accused of rape, I had no control whatsoever over who knew and who didn't know. I reprimanded myself constantly for not seeing it coming. I took whole responsibility for putting myself in that position. I wondered how the hell could anyone believe I would rape someone. But they did, because they wanted to. Because of the "no smoke without fire" crap, because the same society that you see as a rape culture, is the same society that sees it easier to believe men are capable of rape already. There's your fcuking rape culture right there. You want a cause, you want to fight society's misconceptions about rape? Why don't you start with that one and see how you get on?Catari Jaguar wrote: »As for "how can I avoid being raped?" That comment was flippant and blasé. It's how I read it, it's how I responded.
You clearly missed the point of the question then. The point of asking was to show that there is simply no advice that will ever prevent someone from being raped, regardless of their gender. "Advice" puts the responsibility on the person who is raped not to get themselves raped. The responsibility for rape lies solely with the person who commits rape. It's not society's fault, it's not a fault of our culture, it's entirely the fault and the responsibility of the person who commits rape. You would have us believe that society and cultural influences which everyone in society is exposed to, are responsible for a proportionately miniscule amount of people in that society who commit rape. Your rationale just doesn't stand up to any scrutiny whatsoever.
If you thought your reply was flippant and blasé, to a post that wasn't even aimed at you, I would suggest you go out and buy yourself a dictionary. This was your reply:Catari Jaguar wrote: »Nice flippancy.
Do you think women need to avoid being raped?
They must be terrible at it if rape still happens.
Avoiding rape is a myth. Yet women are constantly told to avoid rape.
The fact that you can be blasé about it shows that rape is no threat to you, not a blip on your radar. That's privilege. Of course you'll deny rape culture exists, after all it doesn't affect you. It's why so many here absolutely dont give a ****.
Few posts back there's an ill informed comment about rapists don't lurk on street corners here therefore there's no rape culture. So despite all the asking for proof and thinking you have all the answers you don't seem to know what rape is. 7/10 rape victims know their rapists.
As well as CREATING RAPE CULTURE by teaching girls to beware strangers and protect themselves from rape by what they wear/ how much they drink/ where they walk/ what message they send out etc. which is victim blamey, it also sends a dangerous message (from childhood) that rapists are strangers. It implies sexual assault/ molestation by family members, exes, partners, teachers, friends, coaches etc. ISN'T rape. It's the "legitimate rape" myth.
Why ARE you denying rape culture (which you clearly don't even understand the meaning of) I posted my own personal experiences with harassment and precautions. Any thoughts on that? Should I not take precautions? Will it make a difference if I do or don't? Would you blame me less or more?
Defcon fcuking 1, right off the bat, and you misfired so badly and all.Catari Jaguar wrote: »But the thing is men AREN'T TOLD how to dress, where to go, not to sleep around, not to do xyz. THAT is rape culture. As a man do you have a day to day fear that you'll be raped and have to keep your guard up? Do you worry that if you are raped you'll be victim blamed and asked what you were wearing and how much you drank?
Men are told how to dress. The CEO of an MNC turned up for a meeting with me the other day in sweatpants and a tee-shirt, commenting on the fact that I was over-dressed in my shirt and tie. He was just back from a whitewater rafting trip in Canada, I on the other hand have no such exciting hobbies, and thought it was better I should keep my love of knitting to myself.
As a man do I have a day to day fear that I'll be raped and have to keep my guard up?
No, but not because I'm a man, but because I'm a rational human being that prefers to see the best in people rather than assume the worst. I'm going to go out on a limb here and suggest that I'm not in any way unusual in that regard, and that most people, regardless of their gender, don't have a day to day fear that they'll be raped and have to keep their guard up. If I met someone like that, I'd recommend they seek professional help, because that's just not normal behaviour. It's completely irrational.
I don't worry about being victim blamed for what happened to me, because I never get that far in my thinking that I could ever report the perpetrators for what they did to me. I won't go into specifics, but suffice to say that family reunions are awkward enough as it is without the thought of having to deal with everyone knowing. I really don't need that constant reminder tbh.Catari Jaguar wrote: »This thread is loaded with certain posters crying classic MRA derailing strategies like "Women rape too!!!" (seen in the first response) and shutting down a conversation (or derailing a thread) with "not all men". Nothing beneficial can come that. Dangerous territory in here, and this forum in general. I hope to god it's only the attitude of a misguided few.
This was actually an amazing thread, until you barged in and shat all over it, tbh. Thankfully I know your attitude is only that of a misguided few who hold fast to some of the most numbnuts, cretinous theories I've ever had the displeasure to read, and I say that as someone who reads the Bible religiously.Catari Jaguar wrote: »That's what you took from that? Jesus christ you lot really only see what you like and are determined to undermine.
It's been mentioned already, but just in case you're still not getting the message (and I doubt you ever will) - pot, meet kettle.Catari Jaguar wrote: »It's a ****ing COMMANDMENT to begin with as well as being taught from infancy - don't take things that aren't yours, don't fight.
"Thou shalt not bear false witness against thy neighbour" is another one. Yet your ideology of rape culture seems to fly in the face of it by claiming that I am somehow responsible for the behaviour of the persons who raped me. I didn't make anyone rape me, I didn't make them who they are, yet that is the logical conclusion of your rape culture ideology. You can see why that circular logic might be problematic for anyone who has been raped?Catari Jaguar wrote: »Teach kids to treat girls equally? Teach them that some language is unacceptable, don't teach them or imply that girls interests/ toys are inferior, teach them not to ping bra straps or insult them/ be mean "because they like them", don't teach them that girl bodies distract them from study, don't model sexist manner in front of them e.g. the "jokes"
Y'know, cut out all the bullshít ideology politics, and you're left with one very simple rule to live by:
"Treat others as you would like to be treated"Catari Jaguar wrote: »All of the above is the mythical rape culture. I don't see how that could ever contribute to dehumanizing women, invading their space, disrespecting their boundaries, and eventually some taking it too far? Hmm...
Hmm.... no.
The only people taking anything too far here are proponents of rape culture, by suggesting that the whole of society is responsible for a minority of utterly despicable human beings who have no place in civilised society.Catari Jaguar wrote: »I'm sure your son is lovely, but do you honestly see no harm in messages out there aimed at lads?
Again, serious self-awareness fail there with your rape culture ideology and young boys in your crosshairs. I see nothing but harm in that message, and you have no idea how grateful I would be if you took nothing else with you away from this thread, but this:The only person responsible for a rape is a rapist.Catari Jaguar wrote: »Have you read Steubenville, college rape articles, politicians degrading women and trivilialising rape victims? How do you imagine people with teenage daughters might feel? Do you have a daughter? Have you read the south Dublin gang rape houseparty article that's in trial?
I've read those cases, and I still hold the people who committed those crimes responsible for their own actions. I don't have a teenage daughter, but I've worked with many, many teenage girls in the past and I've cared for them like they were my own daughters. I get the link you're trying to make alright, but then if I thought like you do, what would that say about the way I think of the young boys I've worked with in the past who I cared for like they were my own sons?Catari Jaguar wrote: »Do you think that being self aware of how you might make others feel and modifying that behavoiour is more harmful than a person not feeling safe?
That depends upon a number of factors really.
Be considerate of other people - certainly.
Be a doormat for other people - absolutely not.
Most people in society understand concepts like social awareness, social responsibility and so on, and then there are the minority who appear to have no self-awareness, no concept of social awareness and no concept of social responsibility, and think the world must revolve around them.
You probably wouldn't recognise yourself in a mirror.Catari Jaguar wrote: »If you're walking home at night behind me and I am afraid of you, am I the one in the wrong, or is my fear stemmed from something? Should I surpress my fear so as not to make you feel "notallmen" and deny my instincts? And let's say you are an attacker? What then?
How the hell am I expected to be aware of the fact that you're afraid of me? I'd be turned into a gibbering neurotic idiot by now if I perceived that everyone in society should be afraid of me. I'd never leave the house for fear that I might cause someone to become uncomfortable. You could walk around in complete safety and the whole world would be your oyster because nobody would leave their house for fear they might make someone feel uncomfortable. You'd be the only person not afraid to venture outdoors because now the world has been made a safer place for you, because nobody else is going to make you feel uncomfortable.
If your instincts tell you that I'm likely to rape you, then I respectfully suggest you see a professional, because that's not a normal train of thought for any human being. It can be utterly debilitating depending upon how deeply it's burned into your psyche, and is not a way of thinking I would recommend to anyone, because it could lead you to thinking I actually am going to attack you, when nothing could be further from reality. You're saying I'm an attacker, I'm not, as I haven't attacked you, nor do I have any intentions of doing so. You're hardly to know that however, but due to your debilitating mindset, you've already put me in that box. Am I responsible for you putting me in that box? No. You are. Completely. You own your own irrational thoughts. You don't get to project them onto me or anyone else, because they aren't my responsibility.Catari Jaguar wrote: »Reading this thread and a couple of others in here I am starting to see a lot of hate, bile, asshmptions posted as fact that makes me think is toxic hair trigger away from psychopathic behaviour... not doing yourselves or supposed MRA any good.
You've got to be taking the piss surely? Could you possibly be so devoid of even a shred of self-awareness? I've known some incredibly narcissistic people in my time, but CJ, you're taking the biscuit here, honestly! Fortunately however, while you're not doing yourself or feminism any good, you are vastly outnumbered by the numbers of women I've known in my time who identify as feminist. I don't associate bonkers notions with feminism, because feminism isn't a bonkers notion. Bonkers notions are the responsibility of the people who hold fast to them, and again I say that as someone who is religious. I've got plenty of bonkers notions going on, but I don't see it as my duty to inflict them on anyone else. That would simply make people incredibly uncomfortable, and not alone that, but I would see it as incredibly disrespectful and counter-productive to the ideal of a socially cohesive society.
Other people have the same rights as I do to their funky notions. What they don't have a right to however, is for anyone to take their funky notions seriously. That applies to your funky notions of rape culture.Catari Jaguar wrote: »See that's interesting and you actualy speak sense and I admire that, because I was called a biggot a few posts back for thinking as you do above.
Just because you agree with something because it makes sense to you, doesn't mean you're any less a sexist bigot than you were before. You're still a sexist bigot, just that now you've found a new friend who thinks like you do.Catari Jaguar wrote: »I havent said all men in this thread at all. I read the entire thread and I posted back a few pages of what jumped out at me, that had no business in a thread about rape. STEM and whatever. I posted the exact comments that concerned me. Dismissal of a serious topic and a me me me.
Holy... fcuk...
Self-awareness CJ, get some. Seriously.Catari Jaguar wrote: »That silences women. That stops discussion that helps protect women or alter society to make women (and men, gay, trans whatever) feel more comfortable. That is dangerous. Don't enable it. Shut it down. Report it for derailing.
Not normally a spelling pedant, but oh for the want of a comma, the sincerity was lost. Frankly, your sincerity with regard to your opinion of men, there was never much there to begin with. That much is blatantly obvious.Catari Jaguar wrote: »That level of resentment, that level of blind hatred towards women I saw here
That is the ONLY reason I posted in here.
That's working out well, isn't it?Catari Jaguar wrote: »There's no me saying all men rape or you're all rape apologists. If any of you construed it that way, it's probably the bias you already have due to the anti feminist sentiment in here and labelling me as man hating feminazi blah blah yawn. I didn't even bring up 'rape culture'. I don't like that term, but 'sexualisation disrespect culture' does exist. I didnt invent the term, it's not your call or mine to rename it or redefine it. Seeing the scorn and denial about it confused me, I feel it's my duty to highlight it as am issue that many women take very seriously. Some, like myself, find it cliche, unfair, repetetive and are just sick ofnit at this stage. Everyday in my FB feed something about girls being blamed for something, treated a vcertain way, some link about slut shaming or dress codes.
I need to take a break at this point. The lack of self-awareness is just too overwhelming. It's breathtaking!Catari Jaguar wrote: »The past few responses to me have been measured and respectful debate. I am grateful, and a little surprised due to the majority of absolute bolloxology and vitriol I have been replied to with. And yea, that affects the response you'll get back.
Honestly, I don't even want, nor expect, nor need a reply from someone with their head rammed so far up their own... place where they appear to do most of their talking from.Catari Jaguar wrote: »I have no personal issue contrary to popular belief, I have no chip on my shoulder. I havent been raped. I have brothers, most of my friends growing up were male, I spent 5 years teaching in an all male school. You don't know me.
And yet without knowing me, you still feel your flippant and blasé ehh, "coments", were justified:Catari Jaguar wrote: »The fact that you can be blasé about it shows that rape is no threat to you, not a blip on your radar. That's privilege. Of course you'll deny rape culture exists, after all it doesn't affect you. It's why so many here absolutely dont give a ****.
...
Why ARE you denying rape culture (which you clearly don't even understand the meaning of) I posted my own personal experiences with harassment and precautions. Any thoughts on that? Should I not take precautions? Will it make a difference if I do or don't? Would you blame me less or more?
Of course you do. I don't expect anything else at this point tbh.Catari Jaguar wrote: »I amnt black, I support black lives. I don't "alllivesmatter". I'm not gay, I support gay rights. I'm not depressed, I support mental health campaigns. I'm not homeless. I support those who are. I don't pretend those issues (and I wont call them 'mens' issues) don't exist because I don't face them.
Well, they're fcuked.
Or to put it more politely - you're a liability.Catari Jaguar wrote: »I dont try and one up them with my personal plight.
Reeeeally?
Somehow, I find that incredibly difficult to believe.Catari Jaguar wrote: »Sometimes life is **** and we all have problems. Is that opression? No. Stop pretending it is.
Y'know, we might actually agree on something yet. Sometimes life is indeed shít. But y'know what make it so, so much better?
Living.
Sharing your life with other people.
Finding the beauty in other people.
Y'know what makes it worse?
Pretending you're oppressed.
Stop pretending rape culture is a thing, you'll be much happier for it.
Trust me on that much.Catari Jaguar wrote: »I also care about actions/media that make a gender feel unsafe, shamed inferior, isolated, mocked, victim blamed or afraid and YOU SHOULD TOO. Go read #yesallwomen and put yourself in their shoes. Have you ever contributed or seen it, heard it and said nothing? If so, change. If not, well done, you're stellar women love you. If you don't give a **** either, that's pretty sad.
My wife is convinced I'm an asshole.
You'd have me made out to be a rapist.
I'm really not sure I need your validation tbh.Catari Jaguar wrote: »Frustration born from some of the insanely inappropriate comments here and other threads here, and the double standards, sweeping sttatements etc is what I have issue wirh. As am sure any man without a vested interest in MRA bull**** propaganda cringes, ignores or also feels like banging his head off the wall or cry in frustration reading these posts.
I have no vested interest in political and ideologies of any description, and I still cringed and felt like crying with frustration reading your posts. Just yours.Catari Jaguar wrote: »Spot on. This really comes across in the fact the majority don't even know what is or isnt rape.
...
Why are so many burying their head in the sand about what rape is?
...
Well sorry for feels, but when you don't know what rape is, maybe it needs to be explained and maybe what you thought was ok isnt.
At this point, I feel that any attempt to explain anything to you would lead to me having to draw you a fcuking diagram, and even then I don't imagine you'd get it. Has it ever occurred to you that maybe what you think is rape culture, is actually the greatest load of bollocks you've ever heard in your life?
Maybe what you thought was ok, actually isn't?Catari Jaguar wrote: »I'm gonna go out on a limb and say that attitudes like *this* is why some men commit rape.
They're some very short limbs you've got if your thinking is actually that shallow.Catari Jaguar wrote: »However this anti male rape article is from Everyday Feminist.
http://everydayfeminism.com/2015/09/stop-joking-about-men-raped-by-women/
Fixed that for you.
That article is painful, and I don't mean in the "triggering" sense of the word. I mean in the sense that I could literally sense my grey matter ebbing away to mush as I read it. It's right about your level though if your posts are any indication to go by tbh, so no surprise you would think it was worth sharing. If that's the standard of your FB feed too, I suggest with the greatest of respect you go close the laptop, put your phone away, and go out and get some fresh air, meet some people, make some friends. Again - you'll feel much happier for it. Trust me. If nothing else you take away from this thread though before you go, take this message with you:The only person responsible for a rape is a rapist.0 -
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Jesus OEJ. :eek: Sorry to hear of your experiences. Good points about the privacy aspects of it.One eyed Jack wrote: »I can only speak from personal experience, but having experienced both, being falsely accused of rape, was multiples far worse for me personally than having been raped. You know why? Because at least when I was raped, it happened behind closed doors. I could still go out in public and nobody knew. They would treat me like a normal person. I had more control over who knew and who didn't know. I knew I wasn't responsible for what happened to me.
When I was falsely accused of rape, I had no control whatsoever over who knew and who didn't know. I reprimanded myself constantly for not seeing it coming. I took whole responsibility for putting myself in that position. I wondered how the hell could anyone believe I would rape someone. But they did, because they wanted to. Because of the "no smoke without fire" crap, because the same society that you see as a rape culture, is the same society that sees it easier to believe men are capable of rape already.
Never gonna happen OEJ. If it doesn't pass the women are victims men are victimisers rule of current God Bless America Feminism it's going to be completely off the radar. That the same "feminism" can claim with a straight face to be egalitarian beggars belief. Well it doesn't, because as can be seen anywhere it pops up, self awareness is all too obvious by its absence.There's your fcuking rape culture right there. You want a cause, you want to fight society's misconceptions about rape? Why don't you start with that one and see how you get on?Rejoice in the awareness of feeling stupid, for that’s how you end up learning new things. If you’re not aware you’re stupid, you probably are.
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One eyed Jack wrote: »I can only speak from personal experience
Deeply sorry to hear that Jack, it must have been awful. Excellently written post and really should (hopefully) give food for thought to those reading it.Your insistence of what you term a "rape culture" could be applied to literally any interaction or activity which influences human behaviour. Anything. You name it, it can be perceived to contribute to rape culture. Nothing is just influenced by culture any more, it's all part of rape culture. Everything.
This pretty much. Going on those guidelines pretty much every human being that has ever lived has enabled 'rape culture'. As an idea it doesn't stand up to any kind of scrutiny.This was actually an amazing thread, until you barged in and shat all over it, tbh. Thankfully I know your attitude is only that of a misguided few who hold fast to some of the most numbnuts, cretinous theories I've ever had the displeasure to read, and I say that as someone who reads the Bible religiously.
Seconded.
For all the great points raised in the post, my fear is that it will go in one ear and out the other. The perpetual victim and 'me me me' narrative always seems to win out over common sense unfortunately.0
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