Why do some men commit rape?

The Black Oil · 06-05-2016 8:29pm

mzungu wrote: »

That poor woman :mad:

I'd fully agree here, he is obviously a danger to society.

Some parts of that article:

Even though he has a low IQ, he seems to have to been very calculating in his actions. Would your average child on the street be able to do this?

I'm not really on board here with diminished responsibility as a mitigating circumstance in this case.

Either way, for the publics protection it is best he is incarcerated so he can't bring harm upon anybody else. Whether that be in a prison or secure unit.

There's only so much one can draw from newspaper reports. With a low IQ he mightn't even understand how to tell time or know the days of the week. Sex education for people with an intellectual disability (if that's what this is) is generally a very taboo area overall and for the parents/family. When I was in college, one of the lecturers had experiencing conducting forensic interviews in this area, he was a hugely compassionate man, probably one of the empathetic teaching staff we had in terms of translating the frontline aspect of his job into teaching. I'm not making excuses for this offender's behaviour, but it's possible there may be clinical realities to this that can't be dealt with through the traditional justice system. Undoubtedly there's a risk he'd offend again and he should be held in a secure unit of some sort. As to not answering questions, we don't know what legal counsel he was given and I'd bet there's a fair chance he was barely even able to make eye contact in the custody suite.

I hope the woman finds support too, of course.

mzungu · 06-05-2016 9:18pm

The Black Oil wrote: »

There's only so much one can draw from newspaper reports. With a low IQ he mightn't even understand how to tell time or know the days of the week.

Agreed. I guess it was the part where he put the hand over her mouth that troubled me. It does appear that he was aware of the basic idea surrounding attacking somebody. That would signal to me some kind of awareness what he was doing was wrong. But like you say, it is a newspaper article. The courts will get the full details when the time comes.

Sex education for people with an intellectual disability (if that's what this is) is generally a very taboo area overall and for the parents/family. When I was in college, one of the lecturers had experiencing conducting forensic interviews in this area, he was a hugely compassionate man, probably one of the empathetic teaching staff we had in terms of translating the frontline aspect of his job into teaching.

Absolutely, I imagine that area is a bloomin minefield.

I'm not making excuses for this offender's behaviour, but it's possible there may be clinical realities to this that can't be dealt with through the traditional justice system. Undoubtedly there's a risk he'd offend again and he should be held in a secure unit of some sort.

We're on the same page here. With high reoffending rates for these kind of crimes, it would be best all round if it's for a long stretch.

Catari Jaguar · 26-05-2016 12:21am

Question: Why do some men rape? Responses:

Electric Sex Pants wrote: »

You did not experience rape culture, and to say that we have a rape culture in ireland is an insult to all the women in the middle east and africa where there is a genuine rape culture.

tritium wrote: »

By that reasoning no woman can for example claim employment discrimination on the basis of gender if there ate any successful women or indeed if any man has ever faced gender discrimination in that area.

Which of course is not actually true

BoatMad wrote: »

at least if you are found guilty , bit believe you were wrongly so charged, there are ground for appeals etc.

If you are alleged to have committed a sexual crime ( of any type), the assumption as a man is you are guilty until proven innocent and you life and reputation are ruined.

NI24 wrote: »

And if you do think Ireland is a rape culture, you get labelled a feminazi, SJW, etc.

WinnyThePoo wrote: »

She didn't really add anything progressive towards the talk . Buzzwords and anger was her mo.

BoatMad wrote: »

The big unfairness , is that charges of rape that are then proven to be not so in a court , should expose the person claiming it to civil liabilities for impuning a persons character . Today simply the claim of rape could ruin a mans life and reputation

salamanca22 wrote: »

Why are some women rapists?

I hate the fact that some people choose to label all men as potential rapists.

smash wrote: »

Bizarrely, it's only ever noted when men objectify women. Don't you know that the diet coke break is 'just a laugh', and only women are objectified by porn?

orubiru wrote: »

Arguing that a lot of things "objectify women" is a good way for ugly, fat, blue-haired pigs to stroke their own egos.

"This objectification of women is terrible, I'm getting so tired of the Male Gaze" said Plain Jane, as she completed her daily attention seeking routine.

DeadHand wrote: »

If you went to college anywhere in Ireland you did not experience a "rape culture" and to claim you did is frankly insulting to the people you went to college with and, more importantly, women in the likes of Pakistan who actually do have to endure a culture of violent misogyny.

DeadHand wrote: »

It's also only ever noted when an imbalance goes one way.

Lack of male teachers? Grand, nothing to see here.

Lack of female scientists? STEM is sexist! There most be quotas! Let's overshadow one of humanity's greatest technological achievements by whinging about a brilliant man's choice of shirt!

Most of feminism stopped being about equality a long time ago. Now it's about attacking men and imagined victimhood.

Riiight.... The level of not giving a flying **** about the topic at hand here is scary. I am disturbed.

There's a post from an ACTUAL RAPE VICTIM in here, which still has my stomach churning and my heart thumping.

Lady is a tramp wrote: »

I was raped a couple of weeks back. "Date raped", I guess.

A few days ago, he texted me to apologise. That he'd taken drugs, that it was totally out of character for him to do what he did. Weirdly that made me feel better (although of course I didn't reply.) But at least, to know that yeah, it was wrong, what had happened.

I would be a strong advocate for womens' rights in these cases, but in my case, no. I've been told by the Gardai and the hospital and my mental health team that it was rape, but I don't care. I refused to be referred to the sexual assault unit, I refused to be physically examined, I insisted on showering before letting the Gardai take me to the hospital (against their advice, they made me sign that I was insisting on a shower even though they told me not to.)

Yeah there were bruises and bleeding and stuff, but who the hell is going to take that seriously. It's my word against his that I begged him not to do it, that I fought back, that I have the injuries to my hands to prove it. All he'd have to say is that it was just rough sex. That I wanted it. It would never stand up in court.

I guess the text he sent apologising could count as evidence, but I don't care. You see, as far as I'm concerned, I'm every bit as much to blame as him. If not moreso. And I hate myself for thinking that way. I'd never judge another woman as harshly as I'm judging myself. As far as I'm concerned, I pretty much asked for it, I'm responsible. That does NOT absolve him of his responsibility for what he did. But even though, objectively, I know I wasn't in the wrong. Emotionally, I feel very much responsible.

So why did he do it? I don't know. He said drugs, but I don't really believe that. I mean, he seemed quite lucid at the time.

Control. Power. The knowledge that you have the power to hurt someone else so deeply, both physically and emotionally, and probably permanently. And actually wanting to do it. I can't empathise with that frame of mind at all.

Psychopathic behaviour, in my opinion.

That's what's going through her mind, that she'll likely be dismissed and he'll get away with it, that she's to blame. The attitude by many here is that rape cases are bull**** and made up by women or that she's to blame (also making light of the issue of consent etc). Yet there is huge spite and fear here over all these supposed rape claims that ruin men's lives.

Too many responses here, somehow, are concerned about how bad men have it? No word in here about the girls who are raped/assaulted and don't report it, or worse do report it and have their attacker set free and then be accused of ruining that poor man's life.

Seems many genuinely want women to just shut up about rape because it makes them uncomfortable or inconvenienced.

The Journal - In Ireland, a man can actually confess to rape and still serve no time in prison

The article by Mia Doering ‘I’ve been groped, felt up, and harassed. Rape culture exists and we need men to step up’ is dismissed as "hearsay" and "what aboutery". She's not lying or exaggerating. Visit tLL and read about their experiences with sexual harassment. Ask your sisters or girlfriends if they've ever felt threatened, frightened or been groped or flashed or harassed on the street. Mia's solution to talk about rape culture is scorned and shut down.

I've read this entire thread, including the argument that was derailing it on what was/wasnt rape in an article. I thought there'd be discourse and a willingness to look within or around but blinkers are firmly on for the most part. Constant ask to prove yet "men get raped" often cited.

The OP is excellently put and well researched. The instant flip to dismiss it, make it about men, a them vs us is startling, and worrying.

Faith+1 wrote: »

The question I'd like to ask is how women can falsely accuse a man of raping her and avoid a custodial sentence. That pisses me off

Even worse it get 68 thanks and The Lady is a Tramp's post above is barely acknowledged, save for the more empathetic posters urging her to seek help.

It really shows that Asking For It is rooted in truth (Steubenville aside). That could legit happen here with this attitude. Btw if you haven't read it; the rapists all get away with it.

Pat Mustard · 26-05-2016 12:57am

Catari Jaguar wrote: »

She's not lying or exaggerating. Visit tLL and read about their experiences with sexual harassment. Ask your sisters or girlfriends if they've ever felt threatened, frightened or been groped or flashed or harassed on the street.

Alternatively, instead of insisting that the truth is out there if you say that rape culture exists, prove it.

People say that there is a drink culture in Ireland. It's not unusual for large sections of the Irish population to binge-drink regularly, so if you want to say that there is a drink culture, I have little doubt but that there are figures which will support the assertion.

I don't think that you or anyone else here thinks that marauding bands of rapists stalk the nation every weekend. Rape isn't a traditional Irish pastime or something that has recently become popular, either.

You know that already. So you must mean something else.

If you say there is a rape culture in this country, go ahead and prove your point with facts and figures, not anecdotes and advice to go and look it up.

mzungu · 26-05-2016 1:21am

Riiight.... The level of not giving a flying **** about the topic at hand here is scary. I am disturbed.

No need to be disturbed. All right thinking men are abhorred by it. I have no idea how you came to the conclusion though.

The attitude by many here is that rape cases are bull**** and made up by women or that she's to blame (also making light of the issue of consent etc).

Nowhere in this thread does anybody say that.

Ask your sisters or girlfriends if they've ever felt threatened, frightened or been groped or flashed or harassed on the street.

All of the above for me....and I'm a bloke!

The Journal - In Ireland, a man can actually confess to rape and still serve no time in prison

Those cases were shocking. An anomaly, but shocking nonetheless. My view is that longer jail times for sexual offences are long overdue, and is the way forward. The author of the article would be best off channelling his energies into petitioning the government for a change in the law.

It really shows that Asking For It is rooted in truth (Steubenville aside). That could legit happen here with this attitude. Btw if you haven't read it; the rapists all get away with it.

The book that is being touted as holding a microscope to Irelands 'rape culture'? No thanks. I need real evidence and not anecdotes by those with vested interests and ideological axes to grind.

Catari Jaguar · 26-05-2016 1:38am

Pat Mustard wrote: »

Alternatively, instead of insisting that the truth is out there if you say that rape culture exists, prove it.

If you say there is a rape culture in this country, go ahead and prove your point with facts and figures, not anecdotes and advice to go and look it up.

I really dont want to get drawn into this but it is clear that the majority don't know what rape culture means. I think it's imperative for people to be aware. Click that link in my last post for info on rape stats in Ireland and convictions.

Remember that senator who claimed what was or wasnt "legitamate rape"?

That's an example of rape culture.

Victim blaming and covering up rape (Steubenville in particular a big case in the news)

Telling girls how to avoid being raped, as if it's their fault. There is ONE cause of rape and that's rapists.

Songs like "Blurred Lines" by Robin Thicke - I know you want it etc... and the sexualised music videos

Street harassment. Seriously this is damaging. Call out your friends if they do it, it's dickish

Rape jokes. Online abuse from trolls "I hope you get raped!"

Rape sloth meme eg. "She put me in the friend zone, I put her in the rape zone"

PUA

False rape accusations. Makes actual victims reluctant to come forward and is generally damaging

Slut shaming

Adverts objectifying women's (and men's) bodies or depicting fetishised violence

College rape culture is very real. Men and women are both statistically more likely to be raped at college. Consider watching ,"The Hunting Ground" doc

Plenty of videos, articles, images etc. if you want to research.

Rape culture is telling girls and women to be careful about what you wear, how you wear it, how you carry yourself, where you walk, when you walk there, with whom you walk, whom you trust, what you do, where you do it, with whom you do it, what you drink, how much you drink, whether you make eye contact, if you're alone, if you're with a stranger, if you're in a group, if you're in a group of strangers, if it's dark, if the area is unfamiliar, if you're carrying something, how you carry it, what kind of shoes you're wearing in case you have to run, what kind of purse you carry, what jewelry you wear, what time it is, what street it is, what environment it is, how many people you sleep with, what kind of people you sleep with, who your friends are, to whom you give your number, who's around when the delivery guy comes, to get an apartment where you can see who's at the door before they can see you, to check before you open the door to the delivery guy, to own a dog or a dog-sound-making machine, to get a roommate, to take self-defense, to always be alert always pay attention always watch your back always be aware of your surroundings and never let your guard down for a moment lest you be sexually assaulted and if you are and didn't follow all the rules it's your fault.

Now you may disagree with this, but that doesn't mean it doesn't happen.

Hope I cleared that up for you

Catari Jaguar · 26-05-2016 2:06am

mzungu wrote: »

The book that is being touted as holding a microscope to Irelands 'rape culture'? No thanks. I need real evidence and not anecdotes by those with vested interests and ideological axes to grind.

Highlighting rape is an axe to grind? Really??

It's based on a real case. It's also put together from interviews, stats, research, meeting with rape victims, personal experience. She gets contacted once a week by girls with similar stories. An identical case to the book is in trial atm, a bunch of south Dublin boys gang raped a drunk 16 in her home after a houseparty.

As for "evidence", as you read it is very difficult to prosecute a rapist and many cases go unreported. As far as discussing rape culture and rape you need to talk to victims.

You say you've been subject to all of the harassment mentioned, yet deny rape culture exists? Do you bring your drink to the toilet for fear of being spiked? Do you take note of a taxi number before you get in and text it to your friends in case of attack? Do you avoid going for a jog in the park at night for fear of sexual attack? Do you get labeled "lesbian/ tease/ up yourself/ whore/ frigid/ an ugly bitch anyways" if you reject uninvited advances? Gone along with it because you were too scared to say no? Been taken advantage of drunk? Do you walk with keys between your knuckles at night as self defence? Do you text your friends when you get home to let them know you're safe? Have you been cat called, stared at by older men, followed, and had your body commented on since you were 13/14 years old? Most of the above happened/ happens me regularly and to every girl I know.

Why does rape happen? Maybe because half of society denies that rape culture exists and it snowballs from there? I often wish we were just listened to. It's amazing to see a man be against rape culture, or simply listen to you and believe you. Most women say nothing because desensitized since a young age are used to it.

ZeitgeistGlee · 26-05-2016 2:26am

I've no idea why I'm replying to this, I barely post in TGC and haven't in this thread but it feels smear-y and it didn't sit right with me.

For what it's worth before I go any further I'll also acknowledge that I don't believe "rape culture" (as intentionally nebulously as it has been defined) is a real thing. Rape is, and very rightly so, considered one of the worst crimes possible for an individual to commit and punished accordingly when someone is convicted of it. The vast, vast majority of men (and women) are disgusted by it and would not condone it under any circumstance including and "I was drunk/I was horny/They seemed up for it/They obviously wanted it/They were wearing X, Y, Z/Etc, etc" are NOT excuses/justifications in people's eyes. (Note that I am intentionally using gender neutral language because not all victims are female and all perpetrators male.)

Rape is not implicitly condoned at a societal level and its victims intentionally denied justice. I often see the RAINN statistic of 2% of rape cases leading to a conviction used as if this is somehow "proof" that society protects rapists. Nevermind that:

The RAINN figure specifically relates to the United States AFAIK
The vast majority of victims refuse to pursue a case. You cannot get justice if you refuse to pursue justice.
The presumption of innocence before a court (for all crimes) will always make conviction the more difficult outcome (and this should not change).
Some defendants are in fact innocent and malicious allegations exist
The very obvious effect wealth has on the US Judicial system
Prosecution is not as cut and dried as TV likes to present it and therefore people to presume it is

No clearly all of Western Society promotes rape culture because it's been echoed enough online.

Catari Jaguar wrote: »

Riiight.... The level of not giving a flying **** about the topic at hand here is scary. I am disturbed.

You've picked (dare I say cherry picked) 11 responses (more than one from a single poster) out of a 25 page thread, flicking through it I'm seeing well over a dozen in the first three pages that very genuinely do give a flying fúck.

Catari Jaguar wrote: »

There's a post from an ACTUAL RAPE VICTIM in here, which still has my stomach churning and my heart thumping.

I'm a heterosexual male, read it and my stomach churned as well. I doubt you'll find anyone in TGC who doesn't agree with you that she isn't responsible for what happened and that a very serious crime was committed against her.

Catari Jaguar wrote: »

That's what's going through her mind, that she'll likely be dismissed and he'll get away with it, that she's to blame.

It seemed to me the Gardaí were doing all in their power to get her to go through the process so that they could properly pursue what happened. She didn't seem to be being dismissed, and by not going through the process she makes it harder for the conviction to occur should she choose to pursue it.

Unfortunately it is a vicious cycle whereby if victims do not come forward promptly and go through the process that allows effective evidence to be gathered it makes it much harder to prevent rapists from "getting away with it". I absolutely understand and empathise that it is an awful, horrible crime and that people may not want to discuss it or even pretend it didn't happen but for the sake of conviction it is required.

Catari Jaguar wrote: »

The attitude by many here is that rape cases are bull**** and made up by women or that she's to blame (also making light of the issue of consent etc). Yet there is huge spite and fear here over all these supposed rape claims that ruin men's lives.

I very much doubt that, rape is as I said above considered pretty universally an awful, vile crime and rapists the scum of the earth. Rape cases are one of the few types of crime cases where the presumption of guilt is almost universal and public response extremely vocal.

With that said I also perfectly understand the fear an innocent man may experience at the thought of be subjected to a false rape allegation. Even being found not guilty (where the accused is genuinely innocent) is often considered a failed prosecution than actual vindication. It can, does and has destroyed lives. I can only speak for myself but the idea I could be dragged through the national courts like that based on potentially my accuser's word alone after a consensual sexual encounter is absolutely, viscerally terrifying.

Catari Jaguar wrote: »

Too many responses here, somehow, are concerned about how bad men have it? No word in here about the girls who are raped/assaulted and don't report it, or worse do report it and have their attacker set free and then be accused of ruining that poor man's life.

Not to be flippant but it is The Gentlemen's Club, so a predominantly male perspective on a crime that is almost universally presented as a male-only committed crime is hardly that surprising.

As is pointed out on the first page of this thread the causes of rape are multifaceted because it's generally a personally-derived crime for the perpetrator. There is no cut and dry answer.

What kinds of responses do you expect people to make? Rape is horrible and rapists are evil? What victims experience is awful and they deserve society's full support in pursuing justice and wellness afterwards? Again not to be flippant but these are so ubiquitous they don't need to be said.

Catari Jaguar wrote: »

Seems many genuinely want women to just shut up about rape because it makes them uncomfortable or inconvenienced.

Again, I very much doubt that anyone here would not desire the victim of sexual assault seek justice.

Catari Jaguar wrote: »

The Journal - In Ireland, a man can actually confess to rape and still serve no time in prison

Outlier cases and Ireland's generally ludicrously low sentences (across the board for pretty much all crimes) are not proof that rape is treated less seriously or silently condoned. How many cases of multiple previous convictions being met with a suspended or tiny custodial sentence do you read about every day in Ireland for other crimes without people scream Ireland has a muder/drink driving/burglary/assault culture?

Catari Jaguar wrote: »

Mia's solution to talk about rape culture is scorned and shut down.

Because discussion "rape culture" and deriving solutions from it is not a solution. It's (almost universally) blaming men as a gender for a crime committed by a tiny minority of both genders that we as men are somehow expected to magically fix.

Here are some of the usual spoutings I expected to see and was not disappointed to find:

"You wouldn’t need to lift too many rocks on social media to find the mansplaining, rape-apologists and the #NotAllMen Brigade."

Where to even begin with that vitriolic nonsense. Props for getting mansplaining in there as well I suppose.

"he’s had sex when he was drunk and (he claims) could not give consent – he was therefore a rape victim himself."

If drunkenness impairs a woman's ability to consent it also, logically, impairs a man's ability. You're either dealing with two mutual rapists and victims or you're dealing none (if both are intoxicated).

It's absolutely, infuriatingly ridiculous that an intoxicated man should be held to a higher consensual standard than a woman under equal circumstances (that is how easily one gets drunk, not how many units one has had), or worse that a woman could take a drunk man home, sleep with him and it's considered absolutely fine because obviously no man would ever turn down sex right?

As for the “Not All Men” brigade, why are you whining about your perceived victimhood rather than morally outraged that any man rapes?

Because maybe, just maybe, I am outraged at any person (not just man) who rapes but don't agree with the assertion as a man I somehow enable rape merely by existing.

Why do you not embrace a duty of leadership to your peers and evangelise for feminism?

What does this even honestly mean? Do you expect me to scale a rooftop and yell "Don't rape any women tonight please lads" at the top of my voice as if it were some concept that is foreign to 99.9% of ordinary men? As for "evangelise for feminism", I'm going to move swiftly onwards before the vein in my temple pops at all thought of all the straw attached to that sentiment.

Why do you not declare loudly that women are men’s equals in every right?

Elaborate please. Exactly what rights as regards the criminal prosecution of sex crimes currently lacking in? Hell up until very recently men couldn't even be legally "raped" by a woman and said perpetrators were charged with the lesser sounding "sexual assault".

Catari Jaguar wrote: »

The OP is excellently put and well researched. The instant flip to dismiss it, make it about men, a them vs us is startling, and worrying.

Because an OP which only deals with sex crimes with the premise of males being perpetrators and females being victims doesn't gender the issue in a them (women) versus us (men) fashion? Credit where it's due The Black Oil doesn't seem to be doing this in a malicious fashion and is merely looking for a male perspective on a crime when perpetrated by a male but some of the language in the OP can very easily give this impression.

Catari Jaguar wrote: »

Even worse it get 68 thanks and The Lady is a Tramp's post above is barely acknowledged, save for the more empathetic posters urging her to seek help.

I'll agree that Faith+1's response could've been saved for later in the thread but it is still relevant and the idea there cannot be a discussion on false accusations is equally disturbing.

Catari Jaguar wrote: »

It really shows that Asking For It is rooted in truth (Steubenville aside). That could legit happen here with this attitude. Btw if you haven't read it; the rapists all get away with it.

I once again, respectfully disagree.

One eyed Jack · 26-05-2016 2:33am

Catari Jaguar wrote: »

Why does rape happen? Maybe because half of society denies that rape culture exists and it snowballs from there? I often wish we were just listened to. It's amazing to see a man be against rape culture, or simply listen to you and believe you. Most women say nothing because desensitized since a young age are used to it.

Possibly because "rape culture" really is a load of ideological bollocks?

I won't apologise for there being no nice way to put that btw but if you're promoting an ideology that seeks to demonise men rather than address the issue of rape, and complaining because nobody will listen to you or believe you about the existence of a "rape culture", it's probably because they've already done their research, and they know you're talking bollocks:

One eyed Jack wrote: »

When I said earlier that the logical conclusion of the "rape culture" meme would be that "all sex is rape", I was thinking that was surely hyperbolic enough to make the point. It turns out you've actually outdone yourself to try and link this particular incident in UCD with murder!

The reason I had never paid much attention to the "rape culture" meme is because even though I'd heard of it before, it was just such a ridiculous concept that I figured there wasn't much need to entertain it. RAINN, who are the largest anti-sexual violence organisation in America, made a submission to the White House Task Force To Protect Students from Sexual Assault, in which they make it quite clear -

In the last few years, there has been an unfortunate trend towards blaming “rape culture” for the extensive problem of sexual violence on campuses. While it is helpful to point out the systemic barriers to addressing the problem, it is important to not lose sight of a simple fact: Rape is caused not by cultural factors but by the conscious decisions, of a small percentage of the community, to commit a violent crime.

While that may seem an obvious point, it has tended to get lost in recent debates. This has led to an inclination to focus on particular segments of the student population (e.g., athletes), particular aspects of campus culture (e.g., the Greek system), or traits that are common in many millions of law-abiding Americans (e.g., “masculinity”), rather than on the subpopulation at fault: those who choose to commit rape. This trend has the paradoxical effect of making it harder to stop sexual violence, since it removes the focus from the individual at fault, and seemingly mitigates personal responsibility for his or her own actions.

By the time they reach college, most students have been exposed to 18 years of prevention messages, in one form or another. Thanks to repeated messages from parents, religious leaders, teachers, coaches, the media and, yes, the culture at large, the overwhelming majority of these young adults have learned right from wrong, and enter college knowing that rape falls squarely in the latter category.

Research supports the view that to focus solely on certain social groups or “types” of students in the effort to end campus sexual violence is a mistake. Dr. David Lisak estimates that three percent of college men are responsible for more than 90% of rapes.iii Other studies suggest that between 3-7% of college men have committed an act of sexual violence or would consider doing so. It is this relatively small percentage of the population, which has proven itself immune to years of prevention messages, that we must address in other ways. (Unfortunately, we are not aware of reliable research on female college perpetrators.) Consider, as well, the findings of another studyiv by Dr. Lisak and colleagues, which surveyed 1,882 male college students and determined that 120 of them were rapists. Of those determined to be rapists, the majority — 63% — were repeat offenders who admitted to committing multiple sexual assaults.v Overall, they found that each offender committed an average of 5.8 sexual assaults.vi Again, this research supports the fact that more than 90% of college-age males do not, and are unlikely to ever, rape. In fact, we have found that they’re ready and eager to be engaged on these issues. It’s the other guys (and, sometimes, women) who are the problem.

Source: Perpetrators of Campus Sexual Assault: What We Know (bold emphasis my own)

Now, if you actually wanted to address the issue of sexual violence in UCD, then the courses on consent they're planning on running in Trinity, might not be a bad start. I would suggest too that essential reading material should include this -

Bad Laws or Bad Attitudes? Assessing the Impact of Societal Attitudes upon the Conviction Rate for Rape in Ireland

and this article by the same author, to give people a better understanding of just how complicated the issue of consent is in Irish Law -

REFORM OF IRISH SEXUAL OFFENCES LEGISLATION

and if you're feeling particularly generous, you might introduce this by way of at least a token effort to introduce some balance into the discussion -

What does the research and data tell us about male victims of rape in an Irish context?

So that instead of getting excited in themselves every time they can point out an example of "rape culture" on the Internet, the students instead actually have the knowledge that they will find useful, rather than having their heads filled with nonsense ideologies. I have no beef at all with feminism btw, I have an issue with people being given information that is of no help or use to them at all, which is exactly what promoting nonsense about "rape culture" or even "lad culture" (jesus... really??), is doing.

ZeitgeistGlee · 26-05-2016 3:04am

Catari Jaguar wrote: »

I really dont want to get drawn into this but it is clear that the majority don't know what rape culture means.

Because it's intentionally kept nebulous so that anything can be included in "rape culture" in order to justify the existence of "rape culture"?

Catari Jaguar wrote: »

I think it's imperative for people to be aware. Click that link in my last post for info on rape stats in Ireland and convictions.

Dealt with this already.

Catari Jaguar wrote: »

Remember that senator who claimed what was or wasnt "legitamate rape"?

One conservative imbecile in the United States, who was rightfully internationally vilified and mocked for that moronic statement does not a culture in Ireland (or the US) make.

Catari Jaguar wrote: »

That's an example of rape culture.

No, it's an example of a moron.

Catari Jaguar wrote: »

Victim blaming and covering up rape (Steubenville in particular a big case in the news)

Other than Steubenville how many other cases can you name? Something like Steubenville could only be so reviled/infamous because it is not the norm.

Catari Jaguar wrote: »

Telling girls how to avoid being raped, as if it's their fault. There is ONE cause of rape and that's rapists.

This has always been a confusing one for me. When I go out I take precautions to ensure my own safety (because as a man, statistically I am more likely to be assaulted than a woman), I don't see why giving women tips/advice on how to protect themselves is a bad thing, or implies they are responsible for what happens if they do not follow it.

I remember not too long ago there was a nail varnish developed that would tell you if someone had spiked your drink by changing colour if you dipped your coated nail in the drink. Genius, I thought (and if it was clear I'd wear it because my brother had his drink spiked) but then the product was absolutely lambasted for being another instance of victim blaming. ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

Rapists are indeed the sole cause of rape tho, so I agree with you there.

Catari Jaguar wrote: »

Songs like "Blurred Lines" by Robin Thicke - I know you want it etc... and the sexualised music videos

For which he was regarded as a disgusting creep.

Catari Jaguar wrote: »

Street harassment. Seriously this is damaging. Call out your friends if they do it, it's dickish

I do, and most people know it's really something to be done if the target is unhappy with it. With that said, according to a certain video floating about on Youtube, "Have a nice day" is harassment rather than simply conversation.

Catari Jaguar wrote: »

Rape jokes. Online abuse from trolls "I hope you get raped!"

Trolls? Really?

Catari Jaguar wrote: »

Rape sloth meme eg. "She put me in the friend zone, I put her in the rape zone"

No, just no. By that logic I could use the multiple "male tears" memes to justify the existence of a vitriolic, widespread, anti-male culture in the West.

Catari Jaguar wrote: »

PUA

Are generally viewed as pathetic, skeevy individuals.

Catari Jaguar wrote: »

False rape accusations. Makes actual victims reluctant to come forward and is generally damaging

I don't even get this one. How exactly are you supposed to stop false allegations? If you punish it then it's argued you make women even less likely to come forward.

Catari Jaguar wrote: »

Slut shaming

One I actually agree with on a topical level. People's sexual preferences and appetites are irrelevant provided their partner/s are consenting.

Catari Jaguar wrote: »

Adverts objectifying women's (and men's) bodies or depicting fetishised violence

I disagree that this creates "rape culture", sexualised culture perhaps. And fetishised violence (aka Fifty Shades of ****e) was written by a women for female consumption, so exactly how are all males supposed to fix someone that a female/some females do?

Catari Jaguar wrote: »

College rape culture is very real. Men and women are both statistically more likely to be raped at college. Consider watching ,"The Hunting Ground" doc. Also don't forget what happened recently in UCD

Again this doesn't constitute culture. The Hunting Ground is also factually inaccurate but does reference the deeply worrying trends that have started to creep up in Western colleges/universities around accusations of sexual misconduct.

Catari Jaguar wrote: »

Now you may disagree with this, but that doesn't mean it doesn't happen.

Hope I cleared that up for you

Acts happen, individuals happen, instances happen they don't make a culture because they haven't changed the mentality from "non-consensual sexual acts are wrong".

tritium · 26-05-2016 7:46am

Catari Jaguar wrote: »

I really dont want to get drawn into this but it is clear that the majority don't know what rape culture means. I think it's imperative for people to be aware. Click that link in my last post for info on rape stats in Ireland and convictions.

Remember that senator who claimed what was or wasnt "legitamate rape"?

That's an example of rape culture.

Victim blaming and covering up rape (Steubenville in particular a big case in the news)

Telling girls how to avoid being raped, as if it's their fault. There is ONE cause of rape and that's rapists.

Songs like "Blurred Lines" by Robin Thicke - I know you want it etc... and the sexualised music videos

Street harassment. Seriously this is damaging. Call out your friends if they do it, it's dickish

Rape jokes. Online abuse from trolls "I hope you get raped!"

Rape sloth meme eg. "She put me in the friend zone, I put her in the rape zone"

PUA

False rape accusations. Makes actual victims reluctant to come forward and is generally damaging

Slut shaming

Adverts objectifying women's (and men's) bodies or depicting fetishised violence

College rape culture is very real. Men and women are both statistically more likely to be raped at college. Consider watching ,"The Hunting Ground" doc. Also don't forget what happened recently in UCD

Plenty of videos, articles, images etc. if you want to research.

Now you may disagree with this, but that doesn't mean it doesn't happen.

Hope I cleared that up for you

CJ, I think we all realise at this stage that you're on a little crusade in your little sojourn here but could you at least have the decency to a) fully read the thread instead of selectively cherry picking the bits you can sculpt to your arguement and b) at least considering the pretty well framed arguements many posters here have made against the points you keep repeatedly making

For what its worth, and I don't expect to move your rather ideological view of the world, in spite of your sound bites we've already done the rape culture discussion to death- most of us here reject the 'rape culture' arguement- on the back of rational arguement and evidence BTW, not just because we're menz too busy foaming at the mouth as we support the patriarchy.

Anecdotal evidence and single sample instances do also not support a general statement. I know its one of the emotional weapons many in the feminist movement have used once the statistics won't bend to their will any more, but its still rubbish

College rape stats have already been thoroughly debunked, actually they've be debunked since the days of Kroos and the 1-in-4 myth. See wibbs et all on the site for reference

And what is this reference to recent events in UCD- you couldn't be referring to the slander against the entire male population of one faculty perpetrated on behalf of the matriarchy and their agenda could you? The one that was shamefully lacking an apology? You wouldn't be indulging in a spot of victim blaming would you?

Lady is a tramp · 26-05-2016 7:59am

Catari Jaguar wrote: »

Even worse it get 68 thanks and The Lady is a Tramp's post above is barely acknowledged, save for the more empathetic posters urging her to seek help.

It really shows that Asking For It is rooted in truth (Steubenville aside). That could legit happen here with this attitude. Btw if you haven't read it; the rapists all get away with it.

This just came up in my notifications. I was admitted to the psych hospital at the time. Only just discharged a few days ago.

I was sexually abused by a relative (a priest) throughout my childhood. As a result I have Complex PTSD. As distinct from regular PTSD, there is a difference! Obviously the more recent incident didn't help.

It wasn't my fault. I see that now. I would urge anyone in my position not to do what I did. To seek and get help. I wish I had at the time.

Wibbs · 26-05-2016 8:18am

The above posts responded better than I could. One thing I notice though is just like the MRA types they despise, Catari J uses almost exclusively US "gender war" sources and this is reflected in other areas of her recieved secondhand worldview too. America, on this subject is the land of the braying and the home of the freak. And like I say to the MRA types ranting about "cucks" and "alphas" This is not America(tra la la la la).

And again we can pass it through the Feministometer 3000(™)© and see if we get a positive hit for "women are always victims, men are always victimisers" and yep, we have a positive result folks.

Catari Jaguar wrote: »

I really dont want to get drawn into this

Because frankly you know that sooner or later facts will come into play that jar with your position.

College rape culture is very real. Men and women are both statistically more likely to be raped at college.

This is incorrect and statistically provably incorrect. You do know the "one in four" meme and belief comes from a "study" that doesn't deserve the name from back in the 80's(Koss). A study that was laughably biased and badly constructed. I can happily go through each one of the conclusions and dismiss them with facts. Yep those inconvenient things. But we'll go with your US based sources shall we? These clearly show that since 1990 rape as a crime overall has been dropping and a woman is more likely to be raped outside the university gates than behind them. Which makes sense

Also don't forget what happened recently in UCD

I agree, don't. What happened? Group hysteria kicked off with zero evidence. Yay we have our very own college rape culture case. Ha ha America!! The usual cackle heads were out in force; outraged, emotionally cut to the quick and numbed by the horror etc. Slight problem, just like the Rolling Stone mass rape culture in a US college there was no story, no rapes, no revenge porn in the first place. We imported the wrong BS there. oops.

And when that became evident? Well the cacklers had built up a head of feels steam and by the goddess they were motoring ahead on their wave of outrage and oh yeah, even though it never happened, it might have and it was still a rape culture.

And of course it was still passing the Feministometer 3000(™)© test with flying colours. There is a victim culture alright.

*EDIT*

Lady is a tramp wrote: »

This just came up in my notifications. I was admitted to the psych hospital at the time. Only just discharged a few days ago.

I was sexually abused by a relative (a priest) throughout my childhood. As a result I have Complex PTSD. As distinct from regular PTSD, there is a difference! Obviously the more recent incident didn't help.

It wasn't my fault. I see that now. I would urge anyone in my position not to do what I did. To seek and get help. I wish I had at the time.

That's really good to hear you back and hearing of your progress away from those horrible events in your life and the scum who were the cause of them. Fair bloody play to you!

tritium · 26-05-2016 8:50am

One eyed Jack wrote: »

It sure isn't an example of rape culture, because rape culture doesn't exist. What it is an example of though, is utter rubbish. There's no such thing as telling anyone how to avoid rape. We should be increasing deterrents to deter people from committing rape. Even thinking telling anyone how to avoid rape, is going to have them think afterwards that "I followed all the guidelines, I still was raped, WTF??". They will torment themselves over what they "should have done differently" to avoid being raped.

Put the responsibility for their own actions on the people who choose to commit rape, rather than have the victim wonder what they did wrong to have brought it on themselves.

No, sorry, no, no, no

Separate the blame for the idea of protecting yourself

If I lock all the doors and windows and someone still breaks in that doesn't mean a) the robber isn't scum and b) I deserved or asked to be robbed. If I *don't* do all these things a) and b) are no less true. The difference is in one scenario I'm dramatically less likely to have to pick up the pieces will everyone assures me its not my fault.

We do increase deterrents against pretty much all crime, and since the beginning of recorded time crime continues to happen. That's not going to change so actively finding ways to help protect yourself (against any crime), without becoming a prisoner to fear, shouldn't be dismissed as a bad thing.

ancapailldorcha · 26-05-2016 8:52am

Posts by and response to rereg troll deleted.

mzungu · 26-05-2016 8:53am

Catari Jaguar wrote: »

Highlighting rape is an axe to grind? Really??

I think you know that's not what I meant. The book highlights 'rape culture' which in my opinion is BS. Trying to muddy the waters by misrepresenting what I'm saying does your argument no favours.

As for "evidence", as you read it is very difficult to prosecute a rapist and many cases go unreported.

Change in laws perhaps?

You say you've been subject to all of the harassment mentioned, yet deny rape culture exists?

Indeed I do. I tend not to be taken in hook, line and sinker by US college hyperbole. There are nasty people out there for sure, but I won't go full nuclear by declaring all the men and women of this country are complicit in normalising rape. That's just insane.

Why does rape happen? Maybe because half of society denies that rape culture exists and it snowballs from there? I often wish we were just listened to. It's amazing to see a man be against rape culture, or simply listen to you and believe you. Most women say nothing because desensitized since a young age are used to it.

In your view, are you, your father, mother, brothers, sisters, uncles, aunts, friends, colleagues etc all a part of 'rape culture' too?

Lady is a tramp · 26-05-2016 8:59am

Wibbs wrote: »

*EDIT* That's really good to hear you back and hearing of your progress away from those horrible events in your life and the scum who were the cause of them. Fair bloody play to you!

Thanks.

Onwards and upwards from here! It can only get better.

One eyed Jack · 26-05-2016 9:16am

tritium wrote: »

No, sorry, no, no, no

Separate the blame for the idea of protecting yourself

If I lock all the doors and windows and someone still breaks in that doesn't mean a) the robber isn't scum and b) I deserved or asked to be robbed. If I *don't* do all these things a) and b) are no less true. The difference is in one scenario I'm dramatically less likely to have to pick up the pieces will everyone assures me its not my fault.

We do increase deterrents against pretty much all crime, and since the beginning of recorded time crime continues to happen. That's not going to change so actively finding ways to help protect yourself (against any crime), without becoming a prisoner to fear, shouldn't be dismissed as a bad thing.

I'm about to leave the house for work in a minute tritium, the house is fine, the house is going nowhere.

Any advice for how I can avoid being raped while on my way to work?

Catari Jaguar · 26-05-2016 10:07am

Lady is a tramp wrote: »

This just came up in my notifications. I was admitted to the psych hospital at the time. Only just discharged a few days ago.

I was sexually abused by a relative (a priest) throughout my childhood. As a result I have Complex PTSD. As distinct from regular PTSD, there is a difference! Obviously the more recent incident didn't help.

It wasn't my fault. I see that now. I would urge anyone in my position not to do what I did. To seek and get help. I wish I had at the time.

I really hope you're ok. My heart goes out to you.

Catari Jaguar · 26-05-2016 10:57am

One eyed Jack wrote: »

I'm about to leave the house for work in a minute tritium, the house is fine, the house is going nowhere.

Any advice for how I can avoid being raped while on my way to work?

Nice flippancy.

Do you think women need to avoid being raped?

They must be terrible at it if rape still happens.

Avoiding rape is a myth. Yet women are constantly told to avoid rape.

The fact that you can be blasé about it shows that rape is no threat to you, not a blip on your radar. That's privilege. Of course you'll deny rape culture exists, after all it doesn't affect you. It's why so many here absolutely dont give a ****.

Few posts back there's an ill informed comment about rapists don't lurk on street corners here therefore there's no rape culture. So despite all the asking for proof and thinking you have all the answers you don't seem to know what rape is. 7/10 rape victims know their rapists.

As well as CREATING RAPE CULTURE by teaching girls to beware strangers and protect themselves from rape by what they wear/ how much they drink/ where they walk/ what message they send out etc. which is victim blamey, it also sends a dangerous message (from childhood) that rapists are strangers. It implies sexual assault/ molestation by family members, exes, partners, teachers, friends, coaches etc. ISN'T rape. It's the "legitimate rape" myth.

Why ARE you denying rape culture (which you clearly don't even understand the meaning of) I posted my own personal experiences with harassment and precautions. Any thoughts on that? Should I not take precautions? Will it make a difference if I do or don't? Would you blame me less or more?

tritium · 26-05-2016 11:08am

Catari Jaguar wrote: »

Nice flippancy.

Do you think women need to avoid being raped?

They must be terrible at it if rape still happens.

Avoiding rape is a myth. Yet women are constantly told to avoid rape.

The fact that you can be blasé about it shows that rape is no threat to you, not a blip on your radar. That's privilege. Of course you'll deny rape culture exists, after all it doesn't affect you. It's why so many here absolutely dont give a ****.

Few posts back there's an ill informed comment about rapists don't lurk on street corners here therefore there's no rape culture. So despite all the asking for proof and thinking you have all the answers you don't seem to know what rape is. 72% of rape victims know their rapists.

As well as CREATING RAPE CULTURE by teaching girls to beware strangers and protect themselves from rape by what they wear/ how much they drink/ where they walk/ what message they send out etc. which is victim blamey, it also sends a dangerous message that rapists are strangers. It implies sexual assault by family members, exes, partners, teachers, friends, coaches etc. ISN'T rape. It's the "legitimate rape" myth.

Why ARE you denying rape culture (which you clearly don't even understand the meaning of) I posted my own personal experiences with harassment and precautions. Any thoughts on that? Should I not take precautions? Will it make a difference if I do or don't? Would you blame me less or more?

Oh sweet mother of jeebus, so much wrong with this post! All in the name of protecting a view of the world against all evidence to the contrary.

If I tell people to lock their doors at night am I creating a theft culture. Does it matter that it won't protect against pickpockets. Does that mean I've just blamed people for being pickpocketed? Must we be terrible at avoiding crime if crime still happens or is this one just specific to rape?

Do we have an assault culture here. We have huge levels of assaults, predominantly with male victims. Am I victim blaming when I tell young men to be careful at night? You probably shouldn't actually opine on that since by your own criteria you have in relative terms **** all chance of it affecting you so you won't give a ****- oh, sorry, women have empathy right?

Love the way you shout down any arguement you don't agree with using terms like privilege as a club. Pretty much what you'd accused this forum of doing in another thread on here wasn't it?

One eyed Jack · 26-05-2016 11:16am

Catari Jaguar wrote: »

Nice flippancy.

Do you think women need to avoid being raped?

They must be terrible at it if rape still happens.

Avoiding rape is a myth. Yet women are constantly told to avoid rape.

Before ACD deleted the troll post -

It sure isn't an example of rape culture, because rape culture doesn't exist. What it is an example of though, is utter rubbish. There's no such thing as telling anyone how to avoid rape. We should be increasing deterrents to deter people from committing rape. Even thinking telling anyone how to avoid rape, is going to have them think afterwards that "I followed all the guidelines, I still was raped, WTF??". They will torment themselves over what they "should have done differently" to avoid being raped.

Put the responsibility for their own actions on the people who choose to commit rape, rather than have the victim wonder what they did wrong to have brought it on themselves.

Catari Jaguar wrote: »

The fact that you can be blasé about it shows that rape is no threat to you, not a blip on your radar. That's privilege. Of course you'll deny rape culture exists, after all it doesn't affect you. It's why so many here absolutely dont give a ****.

Yeah, it's a bit late for that alright, but carry on, don't let the reason I specifically asked tritium how I as a man avoid being raped stop you when you're on an ideological roll.

(you have to love the cognitive bypass when you suddenly drop the "feminism is for men too" facade. Believe me I know exactly who feminism is for, and I would never deny women that, but stop pretending it's for men too)

Catari Jaguar wrote: »

Few posts back there's an ill informed comment about rapists don't lurk on street corners here therefore there's no rape culture. So despite all the asking for proof and thinking you have all the answers you don't seem to know what rape is. 7/10 rape victims know their rapists.

As well as CREATING RAPE CULTURE by teaching girls to beware strangers and protect themselves from rape by what they wear/ how much they drink/ where they walk/ what message they send out etc. which is victim blamey, it also sends a dangerous message (from childhood) that rapists are strangers. It implies sexual assault/ molestation by family members, exes, partners, teachers, friends, coaches etc. ISN'T rape. It's the "legitimate rape" myth.

Why ARE you denying rape culture (which you clearly don't even understand the meaning of)

I don't think anyone knows the meaning of "rape culture" tbh, even the people who made up the term, it's a bit fuzzy, like "fitness culture", means fcukall when you really get into it, something I like to do when I want to give myself a brain aneurysm.

Catari Jaguar wrote: »

I posted my own personal experiences with harassment and precautions. Any thoughts on that? Should I not take precautions? Will it make a difference if I do or don't? Would you blame me less or more?

Plenty, but none I'd actuallly comment on in a public forum as I don't know you personally. FWIW, no, of course I don't, and wouldn't blame you in any way, shape or form whatsoever. I'd appreciate if you by that same token didn't blame me for your experience.

newport2 · 26-05-2016 11:27am

Catari Jaguar wrote: »

I really dont want to get drawn into this but it is clear that the majority don't know what rape culture means.

I think it may be more of a case that people who use the phrase don't know what "culture" means.

silverharp · 26-05-2016 11:28am

Catari Jaguar wrote: »

Nice flippancy.

Do you think women need to avoid being raped?

They must be terrible at it if rape still happens.

Avoiding rape is a myth. Yet women are constantly told to avoid rape.

The fact that you can be blasé about it shows that rape is no threat to you, not a blip on your radar. That's privilege. Of course you'll deny rape culture exists, after all it doesn't affect you. It's why so many here absolutely dont give a ****.

Few posts back there's an ill informed comment about rapists don't lurk on street corners here therefore there's no rape culture. So despite all the asking for proof and thinking you have all the answers you don't seem to know what rape is. 7/10 rape victims know their rapists.

As well as CREATING RAPE CULTURE by teaching girls to beware strangers and protect themselves from rape by what they wear/ how much they drink/ where they walk/ what message they send out etc. which is victim blamey, it also sends a dangerous message (from childhood) that rapists are strangers. It implies sexual assault/ molestation by family members, exes, partners, teachers, friends, coaches etc. ISN'T rape. It's the "legitimate rape" myth.

Why ARE you denying rape culture (which you clearly don't even understand the meaning of) I posted my own personal experiences with harassment and precautions. Any thoughts on that? Should I not take precautions? Will it make a difference if I do or don't? Would you blame me less or more?

define rape culture? I can just about get that there is a "drink culture" in Ireland. its possible to get drunk do stupid stuff and generally get a laugh about it in public , or in media , around the watercooler etc. I find it implausible that anyone can have a laugh in public about spiking a woman's drink or dragging a woman down an allay or raping an unconscious woman.

tritium · 26-05-2016 11:34am

One eyed Jack wrote: »

I'm about to leave the house for work in a minute tritium, the house is fine, the house is going nowhere.

Any advice for how I can avoid being raped while on my way to work?

I was going to specifically reply but CT jumped in and hijacked the moment. I think by last response to them kind of covers your point

orubiru · 26-05-2016 11:46am

Catari Jaguar wrote: »

Nice flippancy.

Do you think women need to avoid being raped?

They must be terrible at it if rape still happens.

Avoiding rape is a myth. Yet women are constantly told to avoid rape.

The fact that you can be blasé about it shows that rape is no threat to you, not a blip on your radar. That's privilege. Of course you'll deny rape culture exists, after all it doesn't affect you. It's why so many here absolutely dont give a ****.

Few posts back there's an ill informed comment about rapists don't lurk on street corners here therefore there's no rape culture. So despite all the asking for proof and thinking you have all the answers you don't seem to know what rape is. 7/10 rape victims know their rapists.

As well as CREATING RAPE CULTURE by teaching girls to beware strangers and protect themselves from rape by what they wear/ how much they drink/ where they walk/ what message they send out etc. which is victim blamey, it also sends a dangerous message (from childhood) that rapists are strangers. It implies sexual assault/ molestation by family members, exes, partners, teachers, friends, coaches etc. ISN'T rape. It's the "legitimate rape" myth.

Why ARE you denying rape culture (which you clearly don't even understand the meaning of) I posted my own personal experiences with harassment and precautions. Any thoughts on that? Should I not take precautions? Will it make a difference if I do or don't? Would you blame me less or more?

OK. So what if we agree that Rape Culture exists?

Now what?

How comfortable would you feel with a social media campaign that said "Single Mothers! Stop raising rapists!"?

The assumption, as far as I can tell, is that all men can somehow understand the inner workings of rapists, and subsequently can stop rape from happening, just because they happen to identify as the same gender as the majority of rapists. This is a ridiculous position to hold.

You hold up that pop song "Blurred Lines" as an example of Rape Culture. OK, so let's ban it. Now what? How effective would the banning of Blurred Lines be as a preventative measure?

Let's say we put you in charge and you have to "end Rape Culture". According to your own posts your plan is to:

Ban certain pop songs.
Ban rape jokes and internet memes.
Ban trolls from posting online.
Ban Pick Up Artists.
Ban adverts that show sexy women and sexy men.

At this point I have a series of questions for you. Did rape exist before the Internet? Did rape exist before TV? Did rape exist before radio? Did rape exist before pencils and paper? Did rape exist before language?

Is rape more or less prevalent now than it was in the past? Going back 25 years? 50 years? 100 years? More than 100 years?

Next up, you want to:

Ban street harassment.
Ban slut shaming.
Ban false rape allegations.

I think these are reasonable things. I think we can all agree that people who engage in these things are not good people. How do you stop bad people from being bad people though? We've been trying it for thousands of years.

So, I can see there is room for an argument that says "well we can't just sit by and do nothing" and I don't think anyone would disagree with that.

Some people will say "rape culture is a disease". OK. Fine.

Here is your problem though. Your proposals for dealing with the disease are no different from chanting a mantra or saying a prayer to cure cancer. Yeah, you aren't sitting by and doing nothing but you also aren't proposing any effective solutions.

These things "stop telling sexist jokes" are just stabs in the dark. Banning advertisements with ladies in bikinis to try and counteract rape is just clutching at straws.

You've got all these plans and ideas to end Rape Culture. Can you demonstrate how they will work? What happens if it doesn't work?

The most baffling thing of all is the idea "that teaching girls to beware strangers and protect themselves from rape" is part of Rape Culture. I doubt our society would last very long if we stopped telling our children to "be careful out there".

Yeah, sometimes scaremongering can go to far but seriously proposing that we do not ever encourage people to be wary and be ready to protect themselves is a ridiculously foolish idea.

Pat Mustard · 26-05-2016 11:52am

Pat Mustard wrote: »

Alternatively, instead of insisting that the truth is out there if you say that rape culture exists, prove it.

If you say there is a rape culture in this country, go ahead and prove your point with facts and figures, not anecdotes and advice to go and look it up.

Catari Jaguar wrote: »

Plenty of videos, articles, images etc. if you want to research.

Now you may disagree with this, but that doesn't mean it doesn't happen.

Hope I cleared that up for you

I appreciate the attempt to answer the question.

However, I don't accept the answer itself. I note that you have suggested that research can be done again, whereas this issue had been flagged, previously.

Your examples of rape culture include the following:

- A statement by an imbecile about 'legitimate rape'.
- A song by Robin Thicke, which some people choose to interpret as being about rape but which does not actually mention sex without consent. "I know you want it" is not the same as "I'm going to rape you".
- telling girls how to avoid being raped.
- rape jokes by unidentified online trolls.
- slut shaming.
- PUA stuff.

These examples are not the same as rape, so one would have to question the legitimacy of the phrase "rape culture" itself.

It appears that it is a phrase which is used as a means to propagate an idea that women are victims.

newport2 · 26-05-2016 12:14pm

Pat Mustard wrote: »

- A song by Robin Thicke, which some people choose to interpret as being about rape but which does not actually mention sex without consent. "I know you want it" is not the same as "I'm going to rape you".

It was actually written and produced by Pharrell Williams, but as he isn't a white male it doesn't fit a lot of mantras and this is usually airbrushed over.

One eyed Jack · 26-05-2016 1:00pm

orubiru wrote: »

Yeah, sometimes scaremongering can go to far but seriously proposing that we do not ever encourage people to be wary and be ready to protect themselves is a ridiculously foolish idea.

Well encouraging people to be wary and be ready to protect themselves is an utterly futile idea all the same, because nobody actually expects to be raped, nor can truly prepare to defend themselves against something they never expected. I personally wouldn't encourage anyone to expect to be raped, and prepare accordingly.

Because you simply cannot prepare yourself for someone else's thought processes. I mean, the list of "advice" to reduce/minimise the risk of being raped would read as lengthy as a "list of stuff to ban", "rape culture" advocates wet dream.

(that is to say - the list would be infinite, and even then if someone has the intent to rape someone, they will)

Lemming · 26-05-2016 1:00pm

I believe I've said it before, and I'll say it again: how do you make something seem scary? Put the word "culture" after it, making it seem nebulous, intangible yet tangible, and all-surrounding. It's everywhere so you've been told but you can't see it therefore it must be terrifying; like the bogeyman in a dark room.

Drama-llama hyperbole is all the term is.

Nobody denies that rape is a serious crime and must be treated as such, and (at least within Western civilisation) the vast majority of people abhor the very thought of the crime; those convicted are ostrichised and have to be kept apart from the general prison population for fear of extremely violent reprisals and/or death, and even those who are accused (as many have found out) share a similar hostility from society at large.

Why do some men commit rape?

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