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Why do some men commit rape?
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Ho boy this isn't going to be fun (or inanely repetitious).Catari Jaguar wrote: »You really believe youre right and that is frightening.
Hello Pot, my name is Kettle, pleased to meet you.Catari Jaguar wrote: »I think the handful posting here denying rape culture really highlight that they 1. Don't know what it is and 2. Are resistance to any change to society (which is at the core of MRA)
Once again putting forward the belief that dissent is rooted in ignorance rather than simple disagreement. Bonus round we're now social conservatives/regressives, and no aspect of men's rights activism has anything positive to add to society in a progressive fashion.Catari Jaguar wrote: »Please enlighten me as to how dehumanizing women in the forms of sexualised and degrading lyrics/ music videos, violent video games, PUA, rape jokes/ meme, locker room culture/ lad banter denegrading women/gays benenfits society?
OK there seems to be several new tangents to this argument. As has been said before the vast majority of what you've written there isn't given carte blanche at all, and certainly not viewed as "beneficial to society". When was the last time you heard someone lauded nationally for a rape joke?
I'm curious as to why you've introduced violent videogames (where the overwhelming majority will feature males killing other males) and "gays" (I think they prefer the term "gay people" as a plural) now too? I don't really see the point you're trying to make.Catari Jaguar wrote: »Instead of asking women to PROVE there's rape culture can you disprove it?
That's not how discussion works. You don't get to introduce some nebulous, poorly defined and unsupported concept as fact and then demand others disprove it (which we have been doing). It's like religious people and their various deities, you prove they exist as a matter of fact, not that atheists prove they don't exist.Catari Jaguar wrote: »Is it necessary for the above to be prevalent in society? Why CAN'T you call out a lad and say "stfu, that's not funny."
Since when can't you? If you find something offensive you're perfectly entitled to say so. Don't confuse that with the right to actively censor however which is something only society can do at a consensus level.Catari Jaguar wrote: »Why CAN'T men be asked not to rape in the same way theyre taught not to steal/ murder etc.?
Because maybe "don't commit this evil crime" is implicitly taught by society in the same way that teaching people murder is wrong is? If you want to talk about a campaign to ensure consent is understood (on both sides), that's one thing, but it's hugely infantilising/demeaning to assume grown men need to be asked not to rape as if it's never occurred to them before. Imaging asking mothers not to murder their children because a tiny proportion of mothers do.
The issue with rapists in the general sense of the word is that consent is irrelevant to them, asking them not to rape has no effect because they don't care.Catari Jaguar wrote: »If we all thought that way then racist speak would still be ok.
Not even touching this.Catari Jaguar wrote: »Nowadays some media that was normal and even comical (supposedly) back in the day is shocking to us. Did that infringe on your rights? Has it impacted on your life? It certainly impacted on the way people it AFFECTED.
Except that, as you point out, we've moved on from those things to the point where they're shocking to us at a societal level.Catari Jaguar wrote: »In the same way that rape culture affects girls and teaches them they're lesser or a piece of meat or their bodies are part of the public domain, to be commented on and leered at.
Except that we've established the vast majority of what you've put forward as sources of "rape culture" aren't considered OK by society.Catari Jaguar wrote: »How many times is the Diet Coke ad used as an example of sexism against men and complained about here? That ad wasn't created by women btw, they don't control the media.
Do you acknowledge that sexualisation/fetishisation of men exists? In the segment directly above this one you talk about people being treated as pieces of meat and leered at.
To argue that no women control any aspect of the media is deluded as well.Catari Jaguar wrote: »Why is it acceptable to tell girls how to dress to avoid "asking for it" (US school dress codes) but not say "hang on, boys can behave civilly, they're not animals, they can repect girls bodies and do their studies in a room with bare shoulders/ knees on show." Dress codes teach girls that THEY are to blame for impinging on boys, ruining their studies, existing in the world with their breasts, and at the same time it let's males off the hook with a very clear message; "you couldn't resist, it's her fault."
It's not (at least here in Ireland) acceptable to say something like that. Actually I imagine it's not OK to say it in the majority of the United States either given that there was massive backlash over the "distracting boys" commentary.Catari Jaguar wrote: »There's no men's right to not be tarred with a brush. Sorry it's true.
Eh no it isn't, it's not OK to generalise any group based entirely on a collective, inherent aspect. It's plain bigotry to do so. Do women/people of various skin colours/people of different sexual orientations have no immutable right not to be tarred with a brush either?
To be quite honest Catari that's a pretty disgusting sentiment.Catari Jaguar wrote: »Yes, women commit sex crimes too, but it's 1% of cases. Yes a minority are malicious and cry rape. Yes, men get sexuually assaulted too (1 in 6) yet has there been a "prove it" mentioned here or is that reserved for females? It's thrown around that women fake claims. Is that responded to with ,"prove it?" as well?
No, sadly female on male sex crimes tend to be just whitewashed and its victims ignored, they don't even get to the "prove it" stage.Catari Jaguar wrote: »Legal systems are designed to protect victims not attackers, like any crime. Start assuming men aren't capable of rape and that she's prob a lying vindictive bitch or asking for it drunk slut wirh regrets is stacking the odds in favour of the rapist. Rape victims are statistically likely not to have their assailant prosecuted. Does a not guilty verdict mean it didn't happen? If convictions represented rapes then I guess rape is a miniscule problem.
Except that the judicial presumption of innocence exists for all crimes in order to ensure that innocent people are not convicted of crimes they haven't committed. If you want to have a discussion on Blackstone's formulation ("It is better that ten guilty persons escape than that one innocent suffer") or whether we should move to a judicial presumption of guilt for all crimes (as France do IIRC) that's one thing, but to start cherry picking which crimes should have the presumption of innocence is a very slippery slope.
As we've discussed before, your own statistics state that 90% of victims will not come forward, do you not see how doing this reinforces the belief that they can't get justice?Catari Jaguar wrote: »How about the Kerry case? He was found guilty and she was dragged through the mud and her life destroyed, people shook his hand. Rape culture is talking about how she was to blame and doubting he ever could be.
Then that's a damning indictment against the people of Kerry but again isolated incidents while vile don't change the perception of sex crimes being wrong at a national/societal level.Catari Jaguar wrote: »You know what's worse than being accused of rape? ACTUALLY BEING RAPED.
I agree, but the latter happening does not justify or mitigate the former.Catari Jaguar wrote: »Look how Dylan Farrow is treated and her sexually abusive Woody Allen is living it up in Cannes. No one even believes her and celebrities still work with him.
Outside of his circle of apologists Woody Allen is rightfully viewed as a paedophile rapist who's running from justice. As far as I'm aware extradition charges are still outstanding against him and he has been tried sentenced in absentia. The hypocrisy surrounding Woody Allen is one of those things that really, really disgusts me about Hollywood actually. Him being a master filmmaker (I've never watched one of his films out of principle) in no way negates what he did.
Frankly speaking if I met him in the street I'd punch him in the face, tie him up, and throw him onto the first American-bound flight I could find.Catari Jaguar wrote: »Read the wallet theft analogy of rape victim blaming if you get a chance.
As for "how can I avoid being raped?" That comment was flippant and blasé. It's how I read it, it's how I responded. But the thing is men AREN'T TOLD how to dress, where to go, not to sleep around, not to do xyz. THAT is rape culture. As a man do you have a day to day fear that you'll be raped and have to keep your guard up? Do you worry that if you are raped you'll be victim blamed and asked what you were wearing and how much you drank?
I've stated already I believe victim blaming is wrong, and conceded that yes, men don't face the same dangers of rape as women do. However I would like you to acknowledge that general assault carries many of the same voiced precautions that rape does ("Don't get drunk", "Don't walk alone", "Don't walk in areas of poor visibility" or you'll be a target) and these do affect men and in greater numbers than women. So yes, we do have some idea of how it feels.Catari Jaguar wrote: »This thread is loaded with certain posters crying classic MRA derailing strategies like "Women rape too!!!" (seen in the first response) and shutting down a conversation (or derailing a thread) with "not all men". Nothing beneficial can come that. Dangerous territory in here, and this forum in general. I hope to god it's only the attitude of a misguided few.
While you call it a "classic MRA strategy" I disagree strongly with the idea that "not all men" isn't a valid response. The vast, vast majority of men do not rape, do not commit any sort of sex crime and would not allow them to happen under their watch where possible to prevent it. To smear the entire gender for the actions of a tiny minority is wrong IMO.Catari Jaguar wrote: »That's what you took from that? Jesus christ you lot really only see what you like and are determined to undermine.
Hello again Pot, it's me Kettle.Catari Jaguar wrote: »It's a ****ing COMMANDMENT to begin with as well as being taught from infancy - don't take things that aren't yours, don't fight.
In a modern (secular) society whether it's a commandment or not is irrelevant, the vast, vast majority of people know that stealing is wrong and rape and murder are very, very wrong without requiring a religious book to tell them so.
Frankly if people are deferring exclusively to a Bronze Age religion for their ethical compass that's much more worrisome.Catari Jaguar wrote: »Teach kids to treat girls equally? Teach them that some language is unacceptable, don't teach them or imply that girls interests/ toys are inferior, teach them not to ping bra straps or insult them/ be mean "because they like them", don't teach them that girl bodies distract them from study, don't model sexist manner in front of them e.g. the "jokes"
We do teach children to treat everyone fairly and equally. Unfortunately kids being kids they'll be dickish to one another at times. Likewise we (as in Irish people) don't teach that they distract from study (it's usually the starer gets chewed out as I experienced). As regards jokes, I've always considered malice the line to be drawn with. Kids and teens are, well, idiots most of the time who're just figuring themselves out, provided there's no malice in what they say they're just being idiots who won't carry those beliefs into adulthood.Catari Jaguar wrote: »All of the above is the mythical rape culture. I don't see how that could ever contribute to dehumanizing women, invading their space, disrespecting their boundaries, and eventually some taking it too far? Hmm...
No it's not because we don't encourage young lads to make young women feel uncomfortable. If you did that in my school (and I'm only in my late 20s now) you'd be told to cop yourself on (young lads being eejits and titillated aside).Catari Jaguar wrote: »I'm sure your son is lovely, but do you honestly see no harm in messages out there aimed at lads? Have you read Steubenville, college rape articles, politicians degrading women and trivilialising rape victims? How do you imagine people with teenage daughters might feel? Do you have a daughter? Have you read the south Dublin gang rape houseparty article that's in trial?
I think that's a really lousy sentiment to be honest, young men should be brow beaten into viewing themselves as latent rapists because a tiny minority who don't give a **** will sexually predate? That's not something I'd be happy with for my sons at all.
Do you honestly think that kind of attitude helps you women either? That an entire generation of young men internalise disgust and fear at their own natural sexuality when it's expressed normally and consensually?Catari Jaguar wrote: »Do you think that being self aware of how you might make others feel and modifying that behavoiour is more harmful than a person not feeling safe?
Being self aware is one thing, forcing another person to irrationally view themselves as inherently wrong because of the irrational fear of the Rape Culture Kool-Aid is an entirely different prospect.Catari Jaguar wrote: »If you're walking home at night behind me and I am afraid of you, am I the one in the wrong, or is my fear stemmed from something? Should I surpress my fear so as not to make you feel "notallmen" and deny my instincts? And let's say you are an attacker? What then?
It depends entirely on how rational your fear is. You yourself have posted that the majority of rapes are not committed by strangers. There's also a large different between feeling fear by having a stranger appear in/alongside your path (I don't think anyone is fond of it) and advocating against an entire gender based on that fear. If two people of a different skin colour were taking the same route as me and I decided to channel it into an argument that there was something wrong with all people of that skin colour based purely on my fear I would rightly be called a racist.Catari Jaguar wrote: »Reading this thread and a couple of others in here I am starting to see a lot of hate, bile, asshmptions posted as fact that makes me think is toxic hair trigger away from psychopathic behaviour... not doing yourselves or supposed MRA any good.
Wow, where to even start with all that straw.0 -
Some men rape for a variety of reasons......
Some men are falsely accused of rape and are demonised, potentially serve sentences due to lies and deceit.......
Some women also rape.......
Some women are falsely accused of rape, yet we largely never hear of these cases........
Why is gender balance not applied equally to men and women who rape?
Why do some women who rape get much lower custodial sentences than male counterparts?
Rape is rape, it should not matter who or what sex carries it out, a violation is a violation and all should be treated equally in this regard.
Edit: Op your initial post is biased on the subject as both sexes are capable of performing this despicible act.0 -
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Catari Jaguar wrote: »I think the handful posting here denying rape culture really highlight that they 1. Don't know what it is and 2. Are resistance to any change to society (which is at the core of MRA)
Please enlighten me as to how dehumanizing women in the forms of sexualised and degrading lyrics/ music videos, violent video games, PUA, rape jokes/ meme, locker room culture/ lad banter denegrading women/gays benenfits society? Instead of asking women to PROVE there's rape culture can you disprove it? Is it necessary for the above to be prevalent in society? Why CAN'T you call out a lad and say "stfu, that's not funny." Why CAN'T men be asked not to rape in the same way theyre taught not to steal/ murder etc.?
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Why is it acceptable to tell girls how to dress to avoid "asking for it" (US school dress codes) but not say "hang on, boys can behave civilly, they're not animals, they can repect girls bodies and do their studies in a room with bare shoulders/ knees on show." Dress codes teach girls that THEY are to blame for impinging on boys, ruining their studies, existing in the world with their breasts, and at the same time it let's males off the hook with a very clear message; "you couldn't resist, it's her fault."Catari Jaguar wrote: »I'm sure your son is lovely, but do you honestly see no harm in messages out there aimed at lads? Have you read Steubenville, college rape articles, politicians degrading women and trivilialising rape victims? How do you imagine people with teenage daughters might feel? Do you have a daughter? Have you read the south Dublin gang rape houseparty article that's in trial?
Do you think that being self aware of how you might make others feel and modifying that behavoiour is more harmful than a person not feeling safe?
If you're walking home at night behind me and I am afraid of you, am I the one in the wrong, or is my fear stemmed from something? Should I surpress my fear so as not to make you feel "notallmen" and deny my instincts? And let's say you are an attacker? What then?
Is there not a possible contradiction here, though? On the one hand, we're saying we should not tell women to avoid to certain places or wear and drink YXZ (not saying I agree with this approach, btw), and on the other, we're saying hang on lads, please modify your behaviour from top to bottom. If we carry condoms in our wallets should we also have a business card next to them that says don't rape? In TY in secondary school we did a little bit of self-defence in PE, we were told the primary mode of staying out of a fight was avoidance.
I don't know what school dress codes in the US, they largely don't have uniforms, afaik. If changes need to be made, then can we play the long game here, not just have media articles and actually do something about it? For the record, I'm trying to, but I'm just a private citizen, not an activist. I've emailed a high profile person to try to set up a national forum/conference on this matter (received a reply), I'm trying to look at academic evidence - now, am I still allowed to quibble this notion of "rape culture",? As to other aspects of what you outlined (not quoting your full post), some people love to deny their behaviour and deflect personal responsibility. Let me say again, I'm fully behind victim empathy on this issue.
Men as a whole are not collectively responsible for individual acts of rape. Unfortunately, we're now quite rapidly sliding into a public discourse where any reasonable objection to the thesis and sentiment contending that they are* is quickly shut down. *Despite denials, broad strokes have been painted by some well positioned media types.
I'm not talking about dickheads with "not all men/Feminazi" crap on Twitter. I'm simply saying any reasonable attempt to say, hang on, maybe there's another way of looking at this must not be silenced. For if we buy into this collective narrative hook, line and sinker the sanity debate will be lost, permanently. It's why people get worked up. I think we all feel a little be patronised by how circular it can get - not aiming this at you, just the media types who are the front of the debate. It's partly why I started the thread.Moderator: Television, Psychology and Dublin County North.
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There's no simple answer here.
No, you are not in the wrong because walking home an night time some stranger walking behind you? That's a vulnerable position for any person, even men, to be in and instinct surely kicks in.
In the moment then I'd say it's better to err on the side of caution and stay aware and safe. To hell with that random strangers feelings. I'd rather hurt someone's feelings than be caught unaware with a punch to the head and have my wallet stolen.
Outside of that moment though? Well, if you went home and said to male friends or relatives that you were afraid out there because we all know what men are like with the raping and the groping and the cat calling then that's a little insulting, don't you think?
The trick, I suppose, is finding the way to bring actual problems to light, and then proposing actual solutions, without generalising people or trying to simplify people.
Remember, one of the things that makes Homo Sapiens so successful as a species is the ability to recognise patterns and act upon that. So when you see that 99% of rapists are men some folks brains might go "OK! Man = Rapist! Got it!".
One of the keys to a constructive debate is actually being able to accept "not all men" as a pretty valid point.
When "Not All Men" is met with "Yes All Men", you don't have a discussion, you have an argument.
See that's interesting and you actualy speak sense and I admire that, because I was called a biggot a few posts back for thinking as you do above.
I havent said all men in this thread at all. I read the entire thread and I posted back a few pages of what jumped out at me, that had no business in a thread about rape. STEM and whatever. I posted the exact comments that concerned me. Dismissal of a serious topic and a me me me.
That silences women. That stops discussion that helps protect women or alter society to make women (and men, gay, trans whatever) feel more comfortable. That is dangerous. Don't enable it. Shut it down. Report it for derailing.
That level of resentment, that level of blind hatred towards women I saw here
That is the ONLY reason I posted in here.
There's no me saying all men rape or you're all rape apologists. If any of you construed it that way, it's probably the bias you already have due to the anti feminist sentiment in here and labelling me as man hating feminazi blah blah yawn. I didn't even bring up 'rape culture'. I don't like that term, but 'sexualisation disrespect culture' does exist. I didnt invent the term, it's not your call or mine to rename it or redefine it. Seeing the scorn and denial about it confused me, I feel it's my duty to highlight it as am issue that many women take very seriously. Some, like myself, find it cliche, unfair, repetetive and are just sick ofnit at this stage. Everyday in my FB feed something about girls being blamed for something, treated a vcertain way, some link about slut shaming or dress codes.
The past few responses to me have been measured and respectful debate. I am grateful, and a little surprised due to the majority of absolute bolloxology and vitriol I have been replied to with. And yea, that affects the response you'll get back.
I have no personal issue contrary to popular belief, I have no chip on my shoulder. I havent been raped. I have brothers, most of my friends growing up were male, I spent 5 years teaching in an all male school. You don't know me.
I amnt black, I support black lives. I don't "alllivesmatter". I'm not gay, I support gay rights. I'm not depressed, I support mental health campaigns. I'm not homeless. I support those who are. I don't pretend those issues (and I wont call them 'mens' issues) don't exist because I don't face them. I dont try and one up them with my personal plight. Sometimes life is **** and we all have problems. Is that opression? No. Stop pretending it is.
I also care about actions/media that make a gender feel unsafe, shamed inferior, isolated, mocked, victim blamed or afraid and YOU SHOULD TOO. Go read #yesallwomen and put yourself in their shoes. Have you ever contributed or seen it, heard it and said nothing? If so, change. If not, well done, you're stellar women love you. If you don't give a **** either, that's pretty sad.
Frustration born from some of the insanely inappropriate comments here and other threads here, and the double standards, sweeping sttatements etc is what I have issue wirh. As am sure any man without a vested interest in MRA bull**** propaganda cringes, ignores or also feels like banging his head off the wall or cry in frustration reading these posts.0 -
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Sour Lemonz wrote: »Edit: Op your initial post is biased on the subject as both sexes are capable of performing this despicible act.
Have you read the whole thread? As I've already said, another reason I started it was because a female poster stated there was no meaningful self examination by men on this issue. It's mostly a men's forum here, though I've not the slightest objection to women contributing. As to your complaint about balance, I don't think it can be a since it's men who are the primary offenders of this crime, but where we certainly are running into difficulty is the obsession with gender politics 101 on blame and solutions.Moderator: Television, Psychology and Dublin County North.
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Catari Jaguar wrote: »I'm sure your son is lovely, but do you honestly see no harm in messages out there aimed at lads? Have you read Steubenville, college rape articles, politicians degrading women and trivilialising rape victims? How do you imagine people with teenage daughters might feel? Do you have a daughter? Have you read the south Dublin gang rape houseparty article that's in trial?
Do you think that being self aware of how you might make others feel and modifying that behavoiour is more harmful than a person not feeling safe?
If you're walking home at night behind me and I am afraid of you, am I the one in the wrong, or is my fear stemmed from something? Should I surpress my fear so as not to make you feel "notallmen" and deny my instincts? And let's say you are an attacker? What then?
Reading this thread and a couple of others in here I am starting to see a lot of hate, bile, asshmptions posted as fact that makes me think is toxic hair trigger away from psychopathic behaviour... not doing yourselves or supposed MRA any good.
Frankly, and I doubt you'll like this, I actually couldn't give two ****s. The idea that your ideology trumps any of the considerable evidence to the contrary. The idea that you can simply shout down, demean and scream patriarchy at anything you don't like. The idea that you toddle into the forum to point score and run back to tell everyone how you showed the menz. All of that is centered around a message of hate. Offer it to any other group and it would be condemned rightly as hate speech.
I'm not sure if you think its educational for us all to debate one more time the nonsense that's been debunked umpteen times already, just because you know you're right. Its not. It kind of feels like listening really to one of those fundamentalist pastors. Lots of noise but blind to any idea that there's any truth but their truth, whether it be Jesus, Allah or the altar of feminism. Frankly its the reason that outside of the academic safe spaces people are abandoning feminism by the truckload. The only question left to ask you, as a true believer, is what will you so if some day you stop and realise you're wrong?0 -
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Can you point out where you were called a bigot please? I would personally consider you an unwitting sexist alright and you brought that entirely on yourself by your expressed opinions.Catari Jaguar wrote: »See that's interesting and you actualy speak sense and I admire that, because I was called a biggot a few posts back for thinking as you do above..
You stated and I quote;I havent said all men in this thread at all.There's no men's right to not be tarred with a brush. Sorry it's true.
You also stated that any man around you walking at night "triggers" your fear. Attacker or not.
The veil slipped and now you're backtracking after you've been exposed as a generalist many times and yes frankly sexist with the above statement brush tarring an entire gender and that came from your mind through your keyboard for all to read.
It can quite easily be argued that your posts on the matter have been one long outpouring of vagueness and derailment from the start. At this stage you're just digging the hole deeper.Report it for derailing.
So again rather than maybe just maybe admitting that you may have couched your points in an unclear manner and owning that, your instant go to response is to assume being victimised by "anti feminists", men. Brilliant.There's no me saying all men rape or you're all rape apologists. If any of you construed it that way, it's probably the bias you already have due to the anti feminist sentiment in here and labelling me as man hating feminazi blah blah yawn.
Good lord. *facepalm*I didn't even bring up 'rape culture'. I don't like that term, but 'sexualisation disrespect culture' does exist.
It should be anyone's call to question it. But I keep forgetting you don't like questioning of your narrative.I didnt invent the term, it's not your call or mine to rename it or redefine it.
Fantastical levels of cherry picking and blinkered thinking.Seeing the scorn and denial about it confused me,
I get pics of cats playing basketball. How our worlds differ.I feel it's my duty to highlight it as am issue that many women take very seriously. Some, like myself, find it cliche, unfair, repetetive and are just sick ofnit at this stage. Everyday in my FB feed something about girls being blamed for something, treated a vcertain way, some link about slut shaming or dress codes.
Have you even a shred of self awareness left that you might try to understand(vain hope here) how your very first post on the matter read? And you wonder why "feminists" get such short shrift beyond their echo chambers.The past few responses to me have been measured and respectful debate. I am grateful, and a little surprised due to the majority of absolute bolloxology and vitriol I have been replied to with. And yea, that affects the response you'll get back.
TBH that's worrying in of itself. We're trying to remove the last vestiges of one ideology from our schools and have one helluva way to go, we don't need to import another.I spent 5 years teaching in an all male school.
We're just going by what you write here.You don't know me.
OK. then we get...I amnt black, I support black lives. I don't "alllivesmatter". I'm not gay, I support gay rights. I'm not depressed, I support mental health campaigns. I'm not homeless. I support those who are.
There you go channeling that 1930's male chauvinist again. Your lack of self awareness on this subject is truly staggering. Blacks? Grand. Gay folks? Grand, Homeless, yeah of course. BUt men? Let me just load up my brush with tar.I don't pretend those issues (and I wont call them 'mens' issues) don't exist because I don't face them. I dont try and one up them with my personal plight. Sometimes life is **** and we all have problems. Is that opression? No. Stop pretending it is.
So long as the gender is women of course.I also care about actions that make a gender feel unsafe, inferior, isolated, mocked, victim blamed or afraid and YOU SHOULD TOO.
Oh I've read it and others like it. Could just as easily be bannered #womenvictimsmenvictimisers. Covers 90% of the tweets.Go read #yesallwomen and put yourself in their shoes. Have you ever contributed or seen it, heard it and said nothing? If so, change. If not, well done, you're stellar women love you. If you don't give a **** either, that's pretty sad.
How many have suggested you look in a mirror on this? And yet that hole keeps on getting deeper.Frustration born from some of the insanely inappropriate comments here and other threads here, and the double standards, sweeping sttatements etc is what I have issue wirh.
Hmmm by a couple of changes one could sum up the other "side".As am sure any woman without a vested interest in Feminist bull**** propaganda cringes, ignores or also feels like banging her head off the wall or cry in frustration reading these posts
Oh and this statement is beyond the bloody pale;
That is a hysterical nonsense by any measure. You want to see hatred, because that's your worldview, so you see it even when any reasonable individual can't. Indeed I dare you to quote a post on this thread that shows "blind hatred towards women". I double dare you.That level of resentment, that level of blind hatred towards women I saw here
Exactly.The Black Oil wrote:Have you read the whole thread? As I've already said, another reason I started it was because a female poster stated there was no meaningful self examination by men on this issue. It's mostly a men's forum here, though I've not the slightest objection to women contributing. As to your complaint about balance, I don't think it can be a since it's men who are the primary offenders of this crime, but where we certainly are running into difficulty is the obsession with gender politics 101 on blame and solutions.Rejoice in the awareness of feeling stupid, for that’s how you end up learning new things. If you’re not aware you’re stupid, you probably are.
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The Black Oil wrote: »Have you read the whole thread? As I've already said, another reason I started it was because a female poster stated there was no meaningful self examination by men on this issue. It's mostly a men's forum here, though I've not the slightest objection to women contributing. As to your complaint about balance, I don't think it can be a since it's men who are the primary offenders of this crime, but where we certainly are running into difficulty is the obsession with gender politics 101 on blame and solutions.
Any discussion on rape and child abuse is going to be overwhelmingly biased against men because men are the majority of offenders. Its not sexist to say that, its fact. The problem with threads like this is a lot of men can take it personally and see it as an attack on them. Its not the case. I don't believe any of the women here who identify as feminists are men haters, we all have men in our lives and its not sexist for us to talk about the male perps of rape and female victims. We can do that while acknowledging that men are also victims, that women can also abuse.0 -
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Catari Jaguar wrote: »Reading this thread and a couple of others in here I am starting to see a lot of hate, bile, asshmptions posted as fact that makes me think is toxic hair trigger away from psychopathic behaviour... not doing yourselves or supposed MRA any good.
It must be from your own posts, as all three are pretty much the cornerstone of what you have posted in this thread thus far.0 -
Any discussion on rape and child abuse is going to be overwhelmingly biased against men because men are the majority of offenders. Its not sexist to say that, its fact. The problem with threads like this is a lot of men can take it personally and see it as an attack on them. Its not the case. I don't believe any of the women here who identify as feminists are men haters, we all have men in our lives and its not sexist for us to talk about the male perps of rape and female victims. We can do that while acknowledging that men are also victims, that women can also abuse.
I don't think anyone would disagree that men are the main offenders but men also rob nearly all cars or rob most banks and post offices yet to the extent that anyone looks at the perps , the analysis would be more subtle even though the crimes are feeding off male traits.
Instead of looking at this as a male problem why not look at it in terms of psychology or environmental factors , parenting or lack there of etc.
if men are taking it personally its because the arguments being thrown over the fence by feminists are overly generalA belief in gender identity involves a level of faith as there is nothing tangible to prove its existence which, as something divorced from the physical body, is similar to the idea of a soul. - Colette Colfer
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Catari Jaguar wrote: »See that's interesting and you actualy speak sense and I admire that, because I was called a biggot a few posts back for thinking as you do above.
Except you've missed the key point of orubiru's reply:The trick, I suppose, is finding the way to bring actual problems to light, and then proposing actual solutions, without generalising people or trying to simplify people.
It isn't OK to smear and entire gender based on the actions of a few. Being made uncomfortable by a stranger in your path (a completely nature response) does not entitle you to smear said strangers gender/race/orientation (an irrational response).
Like I said, would you find it acceptable for someone who is robbed by a person of a different skin colour to advocate that said person's entire race are thieves? No obviously you wouldn't. This is exactly the same.Catari Jaguar wrote: »I havent said all men in this thread at all. I read the entire thread and I posted back a few pages of what jumped out at me, that had no business in a thread about rape. STEM and whatever. I posted the exact comments that concerned me. Dismissal of a serious topic and a me me me.
Eh, actually you have, repeatedly. In just your previous post you asserted all men should be OK with being told not to rape, and that all young men need to be conditioned to make women feel less insecure. That's not a portion modifier that references a subgroup like some, many, most, etc, which implies it's ALL men.Catari Jaguar wrote: »That silences women. That stops discussion that helps protect women or alter society to make women (and men, gay, trans whatever) feel more comfortable. That is dangerous. Don't enable it. Shut it down. Report it for derailing.
How? What exactly do you want from people once they acknowledge and agree with you that rape is wrong? We've already established that society as a whole does not tolerate it, and most of the aspects you've attributed to rape culture. You've been repeatedly affirmed that you have the right to confront people who make you feel uncomfortable with their words or conduct.
How are you silenced and what stops discussion? Someone disagreeing with you, contrary to what tumblr or Facebook would have you think, does not silence you, it opens a discussion. If you want an echo chamber exclusively, well that's a different thing.
Again with the throwing of other groups into the mix with no justification because you think it makes your argument stronger, it doesn't.Catari Jaguar wrote: »That level of resentment, that level of blind hatred towards women I saw here
That is the ONLY reason I posted in here.
Where exactly? I'm not talking about your 11 out of 474 cherry picked replies. Show me where someone has posted blind hatred of women.Catari Jaguar wrote: »There's no me saying all men rape or you're all rape apologists. If any of you construed it that way, it's probably the bias you already have due to the anti feminist sentiment in here and labelling me as man hating feminazi blah blah yawn.
Right, just that all men need to be told not to rape because somehow we've been prevented from acquiring this very basic social norm somewhere along the line (possibly because it's not a Commandment).Catari Jaguar wrote: »I didn't even bring up 'rape culture'.
Yet you've repeatedly used it in your arguments.Catari Jaguar wrote: »I don't like that term, but 'sexualisation disrespect culture' does exist. I didnt invent the term, it's not your call or mine to rename it or redefine it. Seeing the scorn and denial about it confused me, I feel it's my duty to highlight it as am issue that many women take very seriously. Some, like myself, find it cliche, unfair, repetetive and are just sick ofnit at this stage. Everyday in my FB feed something about girls being blamed for something, treated a vcertain way, some link about slut shaming or dress codes.
Where does it exist exactly? What western country supports it and encourages it on a wide-scale? Not single instances, not single politicians, not situations which have received wide-scale public backlashes.
Sidenote, you do realise Facebook algorithms show you content based on previous content you've engaged with? If you're unhappy about continuously seeing it you can prevent it by telling facebook not to showing it to you.Catari Jaguar wrote: »The past few responses to me have been measured and respectful debate. I am grateful, and a little surprised due to the majority of absolute bolloxology and vitriol I have been replied to with. And yea, that affects the response you'll get back.
Such as?Catari Jaguar wrote: »I have no personal issue contrary to popular belief, I have no chip on my shoulder. I havent been raped. I have brothers, most of my friends growing up were male, I spent 5 years teaching in an all male school. You don't know me.
Based on your responses repetitiously stating or implying people who disagree with you as ignorant or MRAs or both you very much do seem to have a chip on your shoulder Catari. I will say I don't agree with the repeated references to you being just another anti-male feminist because that's as bad as dismissing someone as a rabid MRA.Catari Jaguar wrote: »I amnt black, I support black lives. I don't "alllivesmatter". I'm not gay, I support gay rights. I'm not depressed, I support mental health campaigns. I'm not homeless. I support those who are. I don't pretend those issues (and I wont call them 'mens' issues) don't exist because I don't face them. I dont try and one up them with my personal plight. Sometimes life is **** and we all have problems. Is that opression? No. Stop pretending it is.
So you don't bandwagon for causes that exclusively affect you, not to be flippant but big whoop, welcome to empathy, if you're expecting accolades you're going to be disappointed (tho sadly this seems to be becoming less normal where people expect to be lauded for caring about others).
As for not calling mental health and homelessness men's issues, if they vastly affect one gender more than the other (like homelessness) then why are issues which are viewed to predominantly affect women like domestic violence considered women's issues? Either you gender all issues if they're skewed (bad idea) or you treat the issue irrespective of gender (good idea).Catari Jaguar wrote: »I also care about actions/media that make a gender feel unsafe, shamed inferior, isolated, mocked, victim blamed or afraid and YOU SHOULD TOO. Go read #yesallwomen and put yourself in their shoes. Have you ever contributed or seen it, heard it and said nothing? If so, change. If not, well done, you're stellar women love you. If you don't give a **** either, that's pretty sad.
Where has this been done in the media? I'm talking wide-scale not simply one off events.
#YAW has so much baggage to it it's impossible to have a rational discussion on it because it simply breaks down to both sides screaming at one another.Catari Jaguar wrote: »Frustration born from some of the insanely inappropriate comments here and other threads here, and the double standards, sweeping sttatements etc is what I have issue wirh.
Where? If there are inappropriate comments you report them, now if something is inappropriate just because you disagree with it that's a different matter.
As for double standards and sweeping generations, well.. *looks below*Catari Jaguar wrote: »As am sure any man without a vested interest in MRA bull**** propaganda cringes, ignores or also feels like banging his head off the wall or cry in frustration reading these posts.
Because that's not a sweeping generalisation at all. ¯\_(ツ)_/¯0 -
Any discussion on rape and child abuse is going to be overwhelmingly biased against men because men are the majority of offenders. Its not sexist to say that, its fact. The problem with threads like this is a lot of men can take it personally and see it as an attack on them. Its not the case. I don't believe any of the women here who identify as feminists are men haters, we all have men in our lives and its not sexist for us to talk about the male perps of rape and female victims. We can do that while acknowledging that men are also victims, that women can also abuse.
Spot on. This really comes across in the fact the majority don't even know what is or isnt rape. You've got judges even who say a 14 year old was a Lolita and masterminded the seduction, you've also got politicians talking rubbish "legitimate rape" and judges who decide that oral rape is ok as is she's drunk and doesnt know.
Look at the channel 4 doc about secondary school kids who don't know what consent is! If she's drunk/ asleep it's ok! If she's flirting or went x amount of the way it's ok. If I said I would I have to go through with it.
Why are so many burying their head in the sand about what rape is? Its generally not some creep on the margins lurking in an alley with a knife ready to grab a girl. It's the boys on the football team, the star quarterback (Steubenville) He's not a despicable scumbag, he's a "good guy" he nade a mistake, do you reeeally want to ruin his life??? It's a gang of boys out in South Dublin gangraping a drunk 15 year old in her own home. It's a guy you went on a date with and he went too far but maybe you led him on so had to go through with it so you blame yourself. Maybe you didnt roofie her, but if you had sex with her when she was too drunk to put up a fight that pretty much the same. Opportinistic rape is more common than premeditated.
When consent needs to be dumbed down to the point of a comic strip analogy about a cup of tea, then there's no leg to stand on in terms of "men don't need to be told not to rape". Well sorry for feels, but when you don't know what rape is, maybe it needs to be explained and maybe what you thought was ok isnt.0 -
Any discussion on rape and child abuse is going to be overwhelmingly biased against men because men are the majority of offenders. Its not sexist to say that, its fact. The problem with threads like this is a lot of men can take it personally and see it as an attack on them. Its not the case. I don't believe any of the women here who identify as feminists are men haters, we all have men in our lives and its not sexist for us to talk about the male perps of rape and female victims. We can do that while acknowledging that men are also victims, that women can also abuse.silverharp wrote: »I don't think anyone would disagree that men are the main offenders but men also rob nearly all cars or rob most banks and post offices yet to the extent that anyone looks at the perps , the analysis would be more subtle even though the crimes are feeding off male traits.
Instead of looking at this as a male problem why not look at it in terms of psychology or environmental factors , parenting or lack there of etc.
if men are taking it personally its because the arguments being thrown over the fence by feminists are overly general
This would be my take on it as well.
I have no issue accepting that the majority of sex crimes are committed by males towards females. What I do have issue with it when the actual causes of sex crimes are bypassed in order to point-score ideologically by causating gender exclusively rather than the pathology, or when victims/perpetrators are implied to be universally one gender which erases victims/whitewashes perpetrators that do not fall into said category.0 -
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I agree 100% E.Any discussion on rape and child abuse is going to be overwhelmingly biased against men because men are the majority of offenders. Its not sexist to say that, its fact.
This is where we may disagree E. I see it as "personal" when men are expected to be somehow responsible for other men's crimes. "Men, help stop rape" nonsense. I see it as "personal" when someone barges in and dismisses any opinion contrary to the current feminist narrative. I see it as "personal" when someone fires off unsubstantiated opinion about a whole gender. I see it as "personal" when someone thinks it's fine to tar an entire gender and states we've no right to object to it. I see it as "personal" when I as a man are automatically triggering fear simply because of my gender. I see it as "personal" when by virtue of my gender I'm seen as a potential victimiser and women as potential victims. I see it as personal when someone comes along and accuses posters in here of "blind hatred towards women" with zero evidence that anyone can read if they chose. That lot E is when it gets personal.The problem with threads like this is a lot of men can take it personally and see it as an attack on them. Its not the case.Rejoice in the awareness of feeling stupid, for that’s how you end up learning new things. If you’re not aware you’re stupid, you probably are.
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silverharp wrote: »I don't think anyone would disagree that men are the main offenders but men also rob nearly all cars or rob most banks and post offices yet to the extent that anyone looks at the perps , the analysis would be more subtle even though the crimes are feeding off male traits.
Instead of looking at this as a male problem why not look at it in terms of psychology or environmental factors , parenting or lack there of etc.
if men are taking it personally its because the arguments being thrown over the fence by feminists are overly general
I'm not sure if its as easy as that. I know from my own experience working in the area there is no type of person who does this. An abuser can be any age, background, upbringing etc. Its not so easy to predict who will become a rapist so how do you target the right people without expanding it to all men and thereby just making even more men feel put upon.0 -
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Any discussion on rape and child abuse is going to be overwhelmingly biased against men because men are the majority of offenders. Its not sexist to say that, its fact. The problem with threads like this is a lot of men can take it personally and see it as an attack on them. Its not the case.
Agreed.
According to the Irish Prison Service, 147 individuals, 2 females and 145 males, were recorded as "sentenced committals" for sexual offences in 2014, ~ 7% decrease compared to 2013. Detection rates of offences as opposed to eventual prosecutions and convictions might be a different matter.
The stats speak for themselves and I'm not throwing in the male/female breakdown just for balance. It shouldn't even have to be said it's not sexist to say it's mostly men. Where my head hits the brick wall is the tone of the media based debate, it's abysmal.I don't believe any of the women here who identify as feminists are men haters, we all have men in our lives and its not sexist for us to talk about the male perps of rape and female victims. We can do that while acknowledging that men are also victims, that women can also abuse.
It would seem to me that this particular point is completely lost on some in the media. When I read some their work, it's case of, do you feel this way when you think about your father, brother, uncle? Did you speak to them before you published your column?Moderator: Television, Psychology and Dublin County North.
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Catari Jaguar wrote:When consent needs to be dumbed down to the point of a comic strip analogy about a cup of tea, then there's no leg to stand on in terms of "men don't need to be told not to rape". Well sorry for feels, but when you don't know what rape is, maybe it needs to be explained and maybe what you thought was ok isnt.
Da fuq
Seriously . Do you think men are animals?. Do you think we should be put out to farm?. You continue to belittle an entire gender .
Thankfully as grown adults we can see through your extremism.
Seriously wtf.0 -
I agree 100% E. This is where we may disagree E. I see it as "personal" when men are expected to be somehow responsible for other men's crimes. "Men, help stop rape" nonsense. I see it as "personal" when someone barges in and dismisses any opinion contrary to the current feminist narrative. I see it as "personal" when someone fires off unsubstantiated opinion about a whole gender. I see it as "personal" when someone thinks it's fine to tar an entire gender and states we've no right to object to it. I see it as "personal" when I as a man are automatically triggering fear simply because of my gender. I see it as "personal" when by virtue of my gender I'm seen as a potential victimiser and women as potential victims. I see it as personal when someone comes along and accuses posters in here of "blind hatred towards women" with zero evidence that anyone can read if they chose. That lot E is when it gets personal.
Yeah I agree with you on the "men stop rape" thing although I can see where its coming from I still think its utterly useless.
And I see where you are coming from with the generalised comments but please do take on board that its not all women or indeed all feminists who think like that. I don't see any hated of women on this thread personally but sometimes I feel as though once you identify yourself as a feminist in here you are immediately put into the box of being extreme or man hating.0 -
Catari Jaguar wrote: »Spot on. This really comes across in the fact the majority don't even know what is or isnt rape.
Except that rape has a legal definition, in my experience quite a few people on both sides seem ignorant of it. If you want to talk about a non-consensual sexual encounter then that's a wider argument though. Not every killing is a murder but every murder is a killing if you take my meaning?Catari Jaguar wrote: »You've got judges even who say a 14 year old was a Lolita and masterminded the seduction,
For argument's sake, are you saying that such a thing is impossible? As an adult, yes, absolutely he should not have engaged her but does him being an adult mean he bears 100% responsibility when IIRC she not only initiated it but pursued it? For clarification I am not saying what happened was OK but that it isn't as cut and dried as you're trying to present it.Catari Jaguar wrote: »you've also got politicians talking rubbish "legitimate rape"
A singular politician, who got shat upon from all directions over talking rubbish.Catari Jaguar wrote: »and judges who decide that oral rape is ok as is she's drunk and doesnt know.
Which provoked outrage, but a cursory investigation would show that this was an appeal case that was upheld due to shortcomings in the law itself. It's wasn't the appellate deciding "oral rape is A-OK" but "**** the law doesn't cover this as a crime so we have to rule with the original case".Catari Jaguar wrote: »Look at the channel 4 doc about secondary school kids who don't know what consent is! If she's drunk/ asleep it's ok! If she's flirting or went x amount of the way it's ok. If I said I would I have to go through with it.
As I covered below secondary school kids not understanding consent is down to their own lack of experience/education rather than proof we OK rape/sex-crimes as a society. The majority of society is still very iffy about when it's OK to start discussing sex with kids due to the discomfort involved. IMO the earlier the better.Catari Jaguar wrote: »Why are so many burying their head in the sand about what rape is?
Such as?Catari Jaguar wrote: »Its generally not some creep on the margins lurking in an alley with a knife ready to grab a girl.
Which we agree due to statistics backing it up.Catari Jaguar wrote: »It's the boys on the football team, the star quarterback (Steubenville) He's not a despicable scumbag, he's a "good guy" he nade a mistake, do you reeeally want to ruin his life???
Eh no, he was a despicable scumbag and I'm pretty sure outside of how own hometown that's how he was presented.Catari Jaguar wrote: »It's a gang of boys out in South Dublin gangraping a drunk 15 year old in her own home.
Rapists who are currently being dealt with in court.Catari Jaguar wrote: »It's a guy you went on a date with and he went too far but maybe you led him on so had to go through with it so you blame yourself.
Which is wrong, if you were not comfortable with what was happening and displayed as such it then a crime was committed. If you weren't but gave no indication, ugh, unpleasant as it is there's a grey area there.Catari Jaguar wrote: »Maybe you didnt roofie her, but if you had sex with her when she was too drunk to put up a fight that pretty much the same.
Assuming that he was sober and she was drunk then you'll find no argument that a crime was committed. Hell even if both parties are drunk but one aggressively pursues intimacy there's plenty of argument for a crime.Catari Jaguar wrote: »Opportinistic rape is more common than premeditated.
Agreed.Catari Jaguar wrote: »When consent needs to be dumbed down to the point of a comic strip analogy about a cup of tea, then there's no leg to stand on in terms of "men don't need to be told not to rape". Well sorry for feels, but when you don't know what rape is, maybe it needs to be explained and maybe what you thought was ok isnt.
You do realise there is a massive difference between a teenage boy/young man who is just beginning to explore his sexuality to have to be given cues on consent because he literally has no sexual experience with which to contextualise and a grown man who has and therefore can right?
As for infantilising consent messages, that depends entirely on those from whom the message is sent. My experience was that certain groups had agendas they wanted to push with them.0 -
Just a thought but isn't it pretty much accepted among psychologist that rape is typically a crime of anger and seeking to feel powerful rather than one of desire and seeking to satiate that desire?
I'd suggest that if this is the case, feminism is actually doing more to increase, rather than limit, the incidence of male perpetrated rape in the Western World.
If you tell men that their masculinity is toxic, that discrimination against them is acceptable and that they're collectively responsible for the actions of the minority in a world where they have less agency over the direction of their own lives, less support to access education, less legal rights and generally a higher likelihood of suffering violence, premature death or suicide than the women around them, I think anger against the group telling them that becomes a fairly understandable emotion for them to experience.
When the same group that are spreading this toxic message then start crying wolf about a "rape culture" (and if I'm to be brutally honest exaggerate the seriousness of the crime - NOT that I believe rape isn't a serious crime, just that I don't see how it's on a par with murder and, depending on the specifics of the cases, assault: most people who've been raped manage to live perfectly normal lives after the event, that's not always so true of those violently assaulted) there's a voice in my mind asking: "do you realise that you're advising the people you're antagonising just how they can hurt you / dis-empower you most?". It seems rather illogical to me.0 -
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When the same group that are spreading this toxic message then start crying wolf about a "rape culture" (and if I'm to be brutally honest exaggerate the seriousness of the crime - NOT that I believe rape isn't a serious crime, just that I don't see how it's on a par with murder and, depending on the specifics of the cases, assault: most people who've been raped manage to live perfectly normal lives after the event, that's not always so true of those violently assaulted) there's a voice in my mind asking: "do you realise that you're advising the people you're antagonising just how they can hurt you / dis-empower you most?". It seems rather illogical to me.
Only if they are lucky enough to get help. Which a lot don't.0 -
Catari Jaguar wrote: »I read the entire thread and I posted back a few pages of what jumped out at me, that had no business in a thread about rape. STEM and whatever. I posted the exact comments that concerned me. Dismissal of a serious topic and a me me me.
That silences women. That stops discussion that helps protect women or alter society to make women (and men, gay, trans whatever) feel more comfortable. That is dangerous. Don't enable it. Shut it down. Report it for derailing.
Rape culture is a feminist belief that sexual violence has been normalized within society.
You have been asked to provide evidence that this is the case, that rape culture exists in Irish society.
You have given examples of various matters of songs and online trolling, et cetera: mostly unrelated to sexual violence. You even requested that you be proved wrong, rather than show evidence that you are correct.
You have not made a convincing argument.
You assert that if your narrative is contradicted by somebody else, "that silences women". Therefore you assert that your narrative should be accepted, even in the glaring absence of reasoned argument or facts to support it. This sort of belief is promoted by dogma, not reason.
Mark 16:16:Whoever believes and is baptized will be saved; whoever does not believe will be condemned.0 -
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That happens E, but for many of us we didn't lick it from a stone either. I have to say in my own personal experience I have found beyond the a la carte feminist(women and men), the "of course I'm a feminist, I'm all for equality" people(I was one of the latter myself and which are the majority), those that identify as feminists and repeat the same ideology are usually at the extreme end and often incredibly blind to how extreme their viewpoints are. Never mind that any questions put to them results in a bad reaction. QV the last few pages of this thread. Just like MRA types who usually go off on similar gender war BS, I have found considered reasonable feminists rare enough. I truly have.sometimes I feel as though once you identify yourself as a feminist in here you are immediately put into the box of being extreme or man hating.
Eh no. Sorry S, that dog won't hunt for me at all. On a few levels. It's not a pity or victim competition, nor should it be. And just as we shouldn't go nuts blaming video games for violence, or short skirts for rape, we also can't even begin to start blaming feminism for the potential to increase rape. That's frankly beyond daft. Alice in Wonderland time.Just a thought but isn't it pretty much accepted among psychologist that rape is typically a crime of anger and seeking to feel powerful rather than one of desire and seeking to satiate that desire?
I'd suggest that if this is the case, feminism is actually doing more to increase, rather than limit, the incidence of male perpetrated rape in the Western World.Rejoice in the awareness of feeling stupid, for that’s how you end up learning new things. If you’re not aware you’re stupid, you probably are.
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Just a thought but isn't it pretty much accepted among psychologist that rape is typically a crime of anger and seeking to feel powerful rather than one of desire and seeking to satiate that desire?
I'd suggest that if this is the case, feminism is actually doing more to increase, rather than limit, the incidence of male perpetrated rape in the Western World.
If you tell men that their masculinity is toxic, that discrimination against them is acceptable and that they're collectively responsible for the actions of the minority in a world where they have less agency over the direction of their own lives, less support to access education, less legal rights and generally a higher likelihood of suffering violence, premature death or suicide than the women around them, I think anger against the group telling them that becomes a fairly understandable emotion for them to experience.
When the same group that are spreading this toxic message then start crying wolf about a "rape culture" (and if I'm to be brutally honest exaggerate the seriousness of the crime - NOT that I believe rape isn't a serious crime, just that I don't see how it's on a par with murder and, depending on the specifics of the cases, assault: most people who've been raped manage to live perfectly normal lives after the event, that's not always so true of those violently assaulted) there's a voice in my mind asking: "do you realise that you're advising the people you're antagonising just how they can hurt you / dis-empower you most?". It seems rather illogical to me.
Holy ****. You are unstable.
Are you justifying rape and saying it's caused by women seeking equal rights?
God, rape victims just get over it, it's not that bad. You'd know, am sure from all the rape victims you know. This applies to male victims too?
You yourself say people have no right to get offended. So what are you getting so offended about in here and taking it so personally?
I'm gonna go out on a limb and say that attitudes like *this* is why some men commit rape.0 -
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I think Sleepy was regarding to the cadre of prominent, man-hating feminists like Bindel and Valenti as opposed to feminism, the idea that men and women should be equal.We sat again for an hour and a half discussing maps and figures and always getting back to that most damnable creation of the perverted ingenuity of man - the County of Tyrone.
H. H. Asquith
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It seems fairly logical to me tbh.Eh no. Sorry S, that dog won't hunt for me at all. On a few levels. It's not a pity or victim competition, nor should it be. And just as we shouldn't go nuts blaming video games for violence, or short skirts for rape, we also can't even begin to start blaming feminism for the potential to increase rape. That's frankly beyond daft. Alice in Wonderland time.
If the act of rape is motivated by the desire to exert one's power, rather than satiating some uncontrollable sexual urge (which the experts tell us it is), wouldn't it follow that a movement that actively tries to dis-empower men, with quite some success, is increasing the motivation to rape?0 -
*Reaches for barge-pole*Just a thought but isn't it pretty much accepted among psychologist that rape is typically a crime of anger and seeking to feel powerful rather than one of desire and seeking to satiate that desire?
I'd suggest that if this is the case, feminism is actually doing more to increase, rather than limit, the incidence of male perpetrated rape in the Western World.
Depends on what you qualify under the label of "feminism" and even then as Wibb's pointed out it's the same slippery-slope as "videogames cause violence" or "immodest clothes cause rape". To be perfectly honest while I don't agree with what a lot of militant third-wavers preach I don't think their preaching is a general trigger either.If you tell men that their masculinity is toxic, that discrimination against them is acceptable and that they're collectively responsible for the actions of the minority in a world where they have less agency over the direction of their own lives, less support to access education, less legal rights and generally a higher likelihood of suffering violence, premature death or suicide than the women around them, I think anger against the group telling them that becomes a fairly understandable emotion for them to experience.
While I can certainly understand the anger/frustration/resentment that that kind of spiel generates, I don't agree that it inherently contributes to someone enacting a rape. Very many of us here will read it/be exposed to it but I would hope none of us will ever rape someone.When the same group that are spreading this toxic message then start crying wolf about a "rape culture" (and if I'm to be brutally honest exaggerate the seriousness of the crime - NOT that I believe rape isn't a serious crime, just that I don't see how it's on a par with murder and, depending on the specifics of the cases, assault: most people who've been raped manage to live perfectly normal lives after the event, that's not always so true of those violently assaulted) there's a voice in my mind asking: "do you realise that you're advising the people you're antagonising just how they can hurt you / dis-empower you most?". It seems rather illogical to me.
Nah mate, I disagree with you pretty thoroughly here. It's arguably not as bad as murder given the person literally dies but the emotional and physical trauma is something which I think a lot of people underestimate. It's a complete violation in several senses of the word. It's honestly rather take a bad hiding from a group of fellas than to be abused by someone I trusted on a very intimate level.0 -
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Even it was in reference to the most extreme of Andrea Dworkin's oeuvre I'd still call shenanigans TBH. I most certainly can see a growing backlash against the current movement and that doesn't bode well as pendulums tend to swing too far the other way, but I would not begin to seriously consider it influencing sexual violence against women.ancapailldorcha wrote: »I think Sleepy was regarding to the cadre of prominent, man-hating feminists like Bindel and Valenti as opposed to feminism, the idea that men and women should be equal.Rejoice in the awareness of feeling stupid, for that’s how you end up learning new things. If you’re not aware you’re stupid, you probably are.
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It seems fairly logical to me tbh.
If the act of rape is motivated by the desire to exert one's power, rather than satiating some uncontrollable sexual urge (which the experts tell us it is), wouldn't it follow that a movement that actively tries to dis-empower men, with quite some success, is increasing the motivation to rape?
Its completely ridiculous. The only person responsible for a rape is a rapist.0 -
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Catari Jaguar wrote: »Holy ****. You are unstable.
Are you justifying rape and saying it's caused by women seeking equal rights?
God, rape victims just get over it, it's not that bad. You'd know, am sure from all the rape victims you know. This applies to male victims too?
You yourself say people have no right to get offended. So what are you getting so offended about in here and taking it so personally?
I'm gonna go out on a limb and say that attitudes like *this* is why some men commit rape.
Not that I'm defending Sleepy but I think when he says feminists he's talking about the hardline, radical, militantly misandrist third wave subset rather than those who are for equal rights. (I hope)0
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