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NBP: National Broadband Plan Announced

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    #1562
    bk
    Moderators, Motoring & Transport Moderators, Technology & Internet Moderators Posts: 22,594 Mod ✭✭✭✭bk


    KOR101 wrote: »
    With the NBP down to 450k premises, meeting an earlier deadline than 2022 may well possible, but that would assume one of the contracts is not given to Eir.

    I don't see why that would be, I'd see Eir being best placed to finish the NBP quickly *

    * Assuming the NBP isn't watered down and given to inferior wireless.

    It doesn't really matter if Eir, Siro or even Virgin where to win the contract, they all seem to use KN Networks behind the scenes to actually run fiber. KN really seem to have cornered much of the expertise in fiber deployment in Ireland.

    So the limitation seems to be how much manpower KN has. The other limitation is the willingness of the winning company to actually use these people to install fiber in rural Ireland, as opposed to targeting more financially profitable urban areas first.

    Eir has a significant advantage in having a much larger and more widespread fiber network already available throughout the country that they can build on. This is a significant advantage as they have less work to do then any other company. Also the fact that they have "good enough" FTTC in place in the rest of the country means they feel less pressure to rollout FTTH to these areas first. Specially if they go for a medium term upgrade to G.Fast in the FTTC cabs.

    Eir can truly focus on the rural FTTH rollout and do it as fast as possible.


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    #1563
    KOR101
    Registered Users Posts: 1,898 ✭✭✭KOR101


    bk wrote: »
    It doesn't really matter if Eir, Siro or even Virgin where to win the contract, they all seem to use KN Networks behind the scenes to actually run fiber. KN really seem to have cornered much of the expertise in fiber deployment in Ireland.

    So the limitation seems to be how much manpower KN has. The other limitation is the willingness of the winning company to actually use these people to install fiber in rural Ireland, as opposed to targeting more financially profitable urban areas first.
    This is something that you probably know better than me. I'm a bit simple minded and think that there should be plenty of people that can be trained fairly quickly to do many of the tasks required for a fibre rollout. I'm not being sarcastic here. I actually just don't know.
    bk wrote: »
    The other limitation is the willingness of the winning company to actually use these people to install fiber in rural Ireland, as opposed to targeting more financially profitable urban areas first.
    The Department have already said that the rollout programme can be influenced by arguments about the particular needs of certain areas. I took that to be the big concession to political interests. But, no matter, the plan will lay out the rollout sequence.
    bk wrote: »
    Eir has a significant advantage in having a much larger and more widespread fiber network already available throughout the country that they can build on. This is a significant advantage as they have less work to do then any other company.
    Agree completely. The economics favour Eir big time.

    When the government proposed two, or more, contracts, I assumed they had in mind splitting the contract between two companies. With one contract, if Eir lost out, the government would really have a fight on it's hands.


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    #1564
    Johnboy1951
    Registered Users Posts: 14,002 ✭✭✭✭Johnboy1951


    With the reduction of the number of premises from 750K to 450K (it does look like eir's commitment will have to have this effect) the idea of splitting the contract between two is likely to have serious cost repercussions, so I fully expect the one company to get the whole lot.


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    #1565
    daraghwal
    Registered Users Posts: 946 ✭✭✭daraghwal


    oscarBravo wrote: »
    Sure - but it's astonishing how soon people seem to think that is. This is one of the biggest infrastructure projects in the history of the state, and people - most of whom, with the greatest of respect, I'd venture to say haven't the faintest idea what's involved in the tendering process for a large state-aided project - seem to think the government could just sign a contract for it in the morning.

    Fair enough, their is a huge amount of paperwork before anything happens but there has been mentions of broadband etc. for rural Ireland since before 2012.


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    #1566
    legocrazy505
    Closed Accounts Posts: 691 ✭✭✭legocrazy505


    oscarBravo wrote: »
    Sure - but it's astonishing how soon people seem to think that is. This is one of the biggest infrastructure projects in the history of the state, and people - most of whom, with the greatest of respect, I'd venture to say haven't the faintest idea what's involved in the tendering process for a large state-aided project - seem to think the government could just sign a contract for it in the morning.

    If the plan was to have it tendered out in 2016 a few months ago there is no reason now that this can't be wrapped up by Q1 2017 with rollout starting immediately. Imagine and the likes will of course be a huge obstacle to push out of the way.


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    #1567
    jd
    Registered Users Posts: 5,687 ✭✭✭jd


    Gonzo wrote:
    IBy 2020 FTTC may be starting to get a bit slow compared to FTTH and Virgin Media.
    Md of openeir mentioned they will be looking at Gfast too, video somewhere on their site.


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    #1568
    oscarBravo
    Technology & Internet Moderators Posts: 28,792 Mod ✭✭✭✭oscarBravo


    legocrazy505 wrote: »
    If the plan was to have it tendered out in 2016 a few months ago there is no reason now that this can't be wrapped up by Q1 2017 with rollout starting immediately.
    I'm actually curious: how many of the people who think this is something that could be done immediately if there were only the political will have read all the various consultations, let alone responded to them? Do they feel that there shouldn't have been consultations, and that the government should have just done whatever the hell it wanted? That if the government had done so, there would have been no legal challenges or any other consequences?

    How many of them have read the PQQ documentation? How many of them realise that the clarifications to the PQQ documentation run to almost 32 pages of very small print?

    How many of them have understood the lengths to which the Department have gone to make sure that the result of this process will be a genuinely open access wholesale network in order to ensure competition to benefit the consumer?

    A project of this scale is difficult bordering on impossible. The NBP team, to their credit, have done a superb job so far. It's kind of annoying to see that superb job be the subject of uninformed criticism.

    We've seen what happens when it's done badly: NBS, anyone? It would be nice if we could stop bitching about it being done well.


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    #1569
    daraghwal
    Registered Users Posts: 946 ✭✭✭daraghwal


    oscarBravo wrote: »
    I'm actually curious: how many of the people who think this is something that could be done immediately if there were only the political will have read all the various consultations, let alone responded to them? Do they feel that there shouldn't have been consultations, and that the government should have just done whatever the hell it wanted? That if the government had done so, there would have been no legal challenges or any other consequences?

    How many of them have read the PQQ documentation? How many of them realise that the clarifications to the PQQ documentation run to almost 32 pages of very small print?

    How many of them have understood the lengths to which the Department have gone to make sure that the result of this process will be a genuinely open access wholesale network in order to ensure competition to benefit the consumer?

    A project of this scale is difficult bordering on impossible. The NBP team, to their credit, have done a superb job so far. It's kind of annoying to see that superb job be the subject of uninformed criticism.

    We've seen what happens when it's done badly: NBS, anyone? It would be nice if we could stop bitching about it being done well.

    NBS is the reason many people are frustrated. They are frustrated because the government broke promises before regarding broadband and people are afraid they are going to do it again. The delay in the NBP is going to annoy people even if that delay is necessary for the NBP to be done correctly.


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    #1570
    Gonzo
    Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators Posts: 16,754 Mod ✭✭✭✭Gonzo


    KOR101 wrote: »
    http://www.breakingnews.ie/business/eir-boss-says-broadband-roll-out-can-happen-faster-than-government-plan-736314.html

    In the above article Eir state that they will have the first 100,000 premises completed by this December, back in March when the first 100,000 were announced they were aiming for completion by March 2017.
    Hopefully this will turn out to be and first 100,000 completed in time for Christmas!. If that's the case they are probably planning on the second 100,000 to be completed before December 2018.


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    #1571
    Jack Killian
    Closed Accounts Posts: 4,663 ✭✭✭Jack Killian


    Gonzo wrote: »
    In the above article Eir state that they will have the first 100,000 premises completed by this December, back in March when the first 100,000 were announced they were aiming for completion by March 2017.
    Hopefully this will turn out to be and first 100,000 completed in time for Christmas!. If that's the case they are probably planning on the second 100,000 to be completed before December 2018.

    I moved house 10 years ago and eir swore blind at the time that there'd be proper broadband here within 2 years.

    When they chose recently to spend money on rebranding instead of investing in their infrastructure, I realised that by paying them for a 2 meg service I was helping convince them that I'd fork out the same amount regardless and switched to Sky, who despite having to pay eir for the wholesale package at least acknowledge the difference between 2 meg and the "advanced broadband area" that eir's website laughably claims that I'm in.

    So any promises by eir re timelines are worthless in my book.

    At least imagine are starting to fill the gap and all going well eir won't even be getting the wholesale price off me next month.


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    #1572
    KOR101
    Registered Users Posts: 1,898 ✭✭✭KOR101


    oscarBravo wrote: »
    A project of this scale is difficult bordering on impossible. The NBP team, to their credit, have done a superb job so far. It's kind of annoying to see that superb job be the subject of uninformed criticism.
    Oh, come on. How long has the Department known about the reality of how long the procurement process was going to take? They just couldn't come out with it before the election. They absolutely deserve criticism for that.


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    #1573
    tsue921i8wljb3
    Closed Accounts Posts: 5,017 ✭✭✭tsue921i8wljb3


    Some clarity on the split between departments. It seems that the Department of Communications will continue to have responsibility for public procurement and setting up an overseeing entity while the new Regional Development department will help to accelerate the rollout when the contract(s) are awarded.

    http://www.rte.ie/news/2016/0523/790419-two-departments-to-share-broadband-plan/


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    #1574
    legocrazy505
    Closed Accounts Posts: 691 ✭✭✭legocrazy505


    Siena Gigantic Backyard wrote: »
    Some clarity on the split between departments. It seems that the Department of Communications will continue to have responsibility for public procurement and setting up an overseeing entity while the new Regional Development department will help to accelerate the rollout when the contract(s) are awarded.

    http://www.rte.ie/news/2016/0523/790419-two-departments-to-share-broadband-plan/

    Why? Why can't they just do something that makes some sense. The plan was fine, leave it, don't mess with the department at all.

    Splitting the plan between two departments will just make things messy and there will be no doubt be even more chaos added to what was a year ago a very good plan that had a very good vision of the future of broadband.

    Now we have this and these taskforces. Some people working in the department on this must be fed up, everything was going so well until the election.


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    #1575
    tsue921i8wljb3
    Closed Accounts Posts: 5,017 ✭✭✭tsue921i8wljb3


    legocrazy505 wrote: »
    Why? Why can't they just do something that makes some sense. The plan was fine, leave it, don't mess with the department at all.

    Splitting the plan between two departments will just make things messy and there will be no doubt be even more chaos added to what was a year ago a very good plan that had a very good vision of the future of broadband.

    Now we have this and these taskforces. Some people working in the department on this must be fed up, everything was going so well until the election.


    I have no idea why. From the article though it seems that the main responsibilities remain with the original department.


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    #1576
    legocrazy505
    Closed Accounts Posts: 691 ✭✭✭legocrazy505


    Siena Gigantic Backyard wrote: »
    I have no idea why. From the article though it seems that the main responsibilities remain with the original department.

    It just doesn't make much sense though to move the post tender responsibility to another group. It would make more sense to keep it within the same department that have worked on this since day one.


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    #1577
    Johnboy1951
    Registered Users Posts: 14,002 ✭✭✭✭Johnboy1951


    I can see the benefits of having local/regional task forces to keep pressure on councils to fast-track planning permissions and other things that have traditionally caused undue delays ....... and we have seen that over the past couple of years.

    I then expect some areas, with really interested local politicians, getting the roll out faster than areas with people who do not help as much.

    The benefit for the Dept of Comms is that the physical roll out is not their concern. The taskforces - local/regional - will have that responsibility I believe.

    It might work out well.

    I am prepared to wait and see.


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    #1578
    daraghwal
    Registered Users Posts: 946 ✭✭✭daraghwal


    Johnboy1951 wrote: »
    I can see the benefits of having local/regional task forces to keep pressure on councils to fast-track planning permissions and other things that have traditionally caused undue delays ....... and we have seen that over the past couple of years.

    I then expect some areas, with really interested local politicians, getting the roll out faster than areas with people who do not help as much.

    The benefit for the Dept of Comms is that the physical roll out is not their concern. The taskforces - local/regional - will have that responsibility I believe.

    It might work out well.

    I am prepared to wait and see.

    Hopefully it does. Will the winner of the contract have the power like ESB do to bring poles/fibre etc. to wherever they want?


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    #1579
    rob808
    Registered Users Posts: 2,311 ✭✭✭rob808


    daraghwal wrote: »
    Hopefully it does. Will the winner of the contract have the power like ESB do to bring poles/fibre etc. to wherever they want?
    well the taskforce with help of the county council should be able to deal with any situation if they arise.


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    #1580
    ItHurtsWhenIP
    Registered Users Posts: 1,975 ✭✭✭ItHurtsWhenIP


    legocrazy505 wrote: »
    It just doesn't make much sense though to move the post tender responsibility to another group. It would make more sense to keep it within the same department that have worked on this since day one.

    I agree. I fear that going with the local groups being responsible for local deployments may be blinded by the science of "our LTE meets the requirements right now (just not in 5 years when ultra 64K is standard viewing on VR gear)" shyte the Wireless Alliance would peddle.


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    #1581
    funnyname
    Registered Users Posts: 1,747 ✭✭✭funnyname


    In light of yesterday's announcement re empty houses in Ireland and most of them looking like they are in rural areas surely this reduces the no of premises in the rollout?

    http://m.rte.ie/news/2016/0523/790255-housing/


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    #1582
    Johnboy1951
    Registered Users Posts: 14,002 ✭✭✭✭Johnboy1951


    MMFITWGDV wrote: »
    I agree. I fear that going with the local groups being responsible for local deployments may be blinded by the science of "our LTE meets the requirements right now (just not in 5 years when ultra 64K is standard viewing on VR gear)" shyte the Wireless Alliance would peddle.

    The local task forces would have no input into the 'type' of installs (FTTH/FWA/etc); that will already be decided and contracts signed.

    They very well might be able to influence the priority given to some locations ..... we don't know yet.
    It would be nice to imagine they could, but the commercial realities of the contract winner will take precedence, I have no doubt.

    I see their roll as 'troubleshooters' ...... those with the remit to try to clear the way for a fast roll-out.


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    #1583
    KOR101
    Registered Users Posts: 1,898 ✭✭✭KOR101


    I don't think it is necessarily being move out of the Department of Communications to Rural Affairs after the contract is signed.

    I am in discussion at present with Minister Heather Humphreys on the detailed arrangements to give effect to commitments in the Programme for a Partnership Government regarding her Department’s role in relation to the rollout phase of the National Broadband Plan. It is envisaged that the role will include leading on the establishment of county or regional broadband taskforces and working with local authorities, Local Enterprise Offices, LEADER Groups and other relevant agencies to help accelerate the broadband network build in rural Ireland, once a contract(s) has been awarded.

    https://www.kildarestreet.com/wrans/?id=2016-05-17a.3060

    However, the Department of Regional Development, Rural Affairs, Arts and the Gaeltacht, led by Heather Humphreys, will be responsible for ensuring that rollout can be delivered quickly once a contract or contracts are in place.
    The minister also revealed that Ms Humphreys will set up county or regional broadband taskforces and work with local authorities, Local Enterprise Offices, LEADER Groups and other agencies to help accelerate the broadband network build in rural Ireland.
    The taskforces will develop rural digital strategies, he said, to ensure that planning permissions and road openings can be processed quickly, identify priority areas for the rollout of infrastructure and to develop regional digital hubs.


    http://www.rte.ie/news/2016/0523/790419-two-departments-to-share-broadband-plan/

    Nowhere does it say anything other than the new Department of Rural Affairs helping the rollout phase. THIS is the relevant bit....

    The Department of Communications, Climate Change and Natural Resources will be responsible for the public procurement of the high-speed telecoms network, and will develop proposals for an entity to manage all of the State's broadband contracts.

    Perhaps a new body, which may even own the network depending on the procurement choices.


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    #1584
    KOR101
    Registered Users Posts: 1,898 ✭✭✭KOR101


    The IT see it as clearly moving to Rural Affairs or a new body. But, I'm not sure they had a reporter inn Roscommon, or whether they are reporting RTE's report.

    http://www.irishtimes.com/business/technology/government-moves-to-dispel-confusion-on-broadband-1.2658132

    And.....

    https://www.agriland.ie/farming-news/will-broadband-plan-really-be-the-most-significant-rural-investment-since-rural-electrification/


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    #1585
    The Cush
    Registered Users Posts: 15,513 ✭✭✭✭The Cush


    At the ETNO-MLex conference in Brussels yesterday Roberto Viola, Director-General, DG Connect, European Commission ​hinted that the Commission would be looking at ensuring a minimum speed for connectivity goals, of 20+ Mbps under the European Commission's proposals for reforming the EU's telecom regulatory framework which are expected to be published in September.

    http://www.telecompaper.com/news/ec-says-on-track-to-deliver-telecom-reform-proposal-in-sept--1145069
    Speaking at the ETNO-MLex conference in Brussels, he said there will be an emphasis on simplification, including the possibility of more co- and self-regulation in order to achieve the aim of a 'gigabit society'. Connectivity remains the key objective of the reform, as part of the EU's broader Digital Single Market policy. The aim is to stimulate operators to invest in faster networks and increased connectivity, while providing regulatory certainty to ensure a return for the investors. Investment is also key to ensuring competition, Viola said. "There can be no competition without investment, these are two sides of the same coin," he said.

    The DG noted that the reforms will be focusing particularly on the quality of connectivity delivered. The e-Communications survey just published by the Commission shows that while price is still the most important factor for consumers when it comes to broadband, quality has risen to second place, mentioned by 70 percent of EU residents. Viola hinted that the Commission would be looking at ensuring a minimum speed for connectivity goals, of 20+ Mbps. This is similar to the decision by the FCC to target funding towards broadband of at least 25 Mbps.

    Europe's Digital Progress Report 2016 published last week

    "Connectivity, Broadband market developments in the EU" presentation - http://ec.europa.eu/newsroom/dae/document.cfm?action=display&doc_id=15807 (ppt)


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    #1586
    KOR101
    Registered Users Posts: 1,898 ✭✭✭KOR101


    Denis Naughton on Newstalk. Really positive talk about future proofing and a solution that lasts 25 years. The political angle on who gets it first should interesting. :mad:

    https://soundcloud.com/user282274141/denis-naughton-newstalk-24th-may-2016


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    #1587
    daraghwal
    Registered Users Posts: 946 ✭✭✭daraghwal


    http://www.thejournal.ie/broadband-rural-urban-ireland-report-2788145-May2016/

    It's nice to see the media getting behind the lack of broadband in Ireland. It's been all over the news the last few weeks


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    #1588
    Gonzo
    Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators Posts: 16,754 Mod ✭✭✭✭Gonzo


    daraghwal wrote: »
    http://www.thejournal.ie/broadband-rural-urban-ireland-report-2788145-May2016/

    It's nice to see the media getting behind the lack of broadband in Ireland. It's been all over the news the last few weeks

    about time as well. Up to a year ago there was this idea that people living beyond large towns and cities didn't require fast broadband and that it was too expensive to provide for and that it will never happen.

    Over the past year rural Ireland is still in the same position as it was 10 years ago but what's changed is that all business, utility companies and even services such as education, entertainment and employment are expecting customers all over Ireland to interact with them online and that is why fast internet is needed everywhere so people can live, pay their bills, research their school/college homework/projects, look for a job, book a flight/hotel and countless other activities.

    This needs all the attention it deserves in the media as people living outside of FTTC/Virgin media land are at a clear disadvantage and the problem is only going to get much worse if not fixed soon.


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    #1589
    Johnboy1951
    Registered Users Posts: 14,002 ✭✭✭✭Johnboy1951


    I get the impression that the media are only highlighting this at present because it gives them something to beat politicians with.

    Most of them seem not to care or even understand the reality of the situation ...... although hopefully that is changing because they have to appear as if they know what they are speaking/writing about.


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    #1590
    daraghwal
    Registered Users Posts: 946 ✭✭✭daraghwal


    Johnboy1951 wrote: »
    I get the impression that the media are only highlighting this at present because it gives them something to beat politicians with.

    Most of them seem not to care or even understand the reality of the situation ...... although hopefully that is changing because they have to appear as if they know what they are speaking/writing about.

    Maybe they'll beat a bit of sense into the politicians then!!


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    #1591
    Johnboy1951
    Registered Users Posts: 14,002 ✭✭✭✭Johnboy1951


    daraghwal wrote: »
    Maybe they'll beat a bit of sense into the politicians then!!

    I dunno which are the more clueless, TBH.


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