Daughter forced to believe in God

lukesmom · 09-09-2014 7:42pm

bajer101 wrote: »

She has no respect for the subject matter, because she doesn't believe it. If someone tried to "teach" that the earth was 4000 years old or that evolution was a lie, would you respect it?

BTW, she has perfect manners and is extremely respectful to other people. I constantly receive compliments about her behaviour and in her previous childcare I was often told about how she would always help other kids with their work. I have just tried to raise her to be confident and to stand up for what she believes in and to question what she doesn't understand or accept. It has its downsides as I can't get away with "because I said so". But this event was not a downside.

Yeah that's fair enough but no point announcing it in a religious studies class where the teacher is teaching the beliefs of Catholicism.

lukesmom · 09-09-2014 7:43pm

eviltwin wrote: »

Earlier this year my daughter had a talk from Pure In Heart, they were warned in advance to keep quiet throughout the talk. My daughter challenged them on every dodgy statistic they trotted out especially the ones regarding homosexuality - she's gay. She was eventually asked to leave. I was very proud of her, the world needs people who are brave enough to be true to themselves and not be forced to pretend to be something they are not just to maintain the status quo. It is not rude to state who and what you are as the OP's daughter did, it's not rude to make authority figures accountable or ask them to back up their statements.

That's a different ball game altogether. I have many gay friends also. This is not about sexuality.

bajer101 · 09-09-2014 7:43pm

lukesmom wrote: »

Yeah because there's no teacher trying to teach the children about God. Come on please don't compare a class of kids where a lesson is taking place to the playground. Luke has an open mind he doesn't have to believe in what I say. But he wouldn't disrupt a class where a teacher is teaching about God . He has a mind of his own but there's a time and place for everything.

There is a time and a place for everything, and my daughter decided that the time and place for her to state that she didn't believe in God was day 1, when she was being told that there was a God. She stated what she believed and wouldn't back down. She came home and told me about it and now it has (hopefully) all been sorted with minimum fuss.

lukesmom · 09-09-2014 7:46pm

bajer101 wrote: »

There is a time and a place for everything, and my daughter decided that the time and place for her to state that she didn't believe in God was day 1, when she was being told that there was a God. She stated what she believed and wouldn't back down. She came home and told me about it and now it has (hopefully) all been sorted with minimum fuss.

Well I'm glad it has been sorted. But what happens at the next religious studies class?

EunanMac · 09-09-2014 7:46pm

bajer101 wrote: »

Thanks. One of the reasons I had to get fully behind her on this was that I couldn't let her spirit be knocked out of her. A big problem with this country is that people were afraid to question authority figures - not just the church. This facilitated the abuse scandals and corruption.

Try and question any 'authority' on boards and see how you get on

eviltwin · 09-09-2014 7:48pm

lukesmom wrote: »

That's a different ball game altogether. I have many gay friends also. This is not about sexuality.

It's about beliefs. The Catholics believe certain things. Others don't. Why should anyone be expected to pretend they are someone they are not? What kind of message is that to give the child?

bajer101 · 09-09-2014 7:49pm

lukesmom wrote: »

Well I'm glad it has been sorted. But what happens at the next religious studies class?

That is what I will thrash out with the Principal in the morning. She will either go to a different class and study something useful, or she may stay in the class and do some other schoolwork, or I will provide her with some different reading material and will set her goals about what she has to to with that material.

lukesmom · 09-09-2014 7:50pm

bajer101 wrote: »

That is what I will thrash out with the Principal in the morning. She will either go to a different class and study something useful, or she may stay in the class and do some other schoolwork, or I will provide her with some different reading material and will set her goals about what she has to to with that material.

She doesn't believe in god so you don't expect her to sit and listen to something she totally disagrees with do you? You'd hardly let her sit in that room talking about a God you think is a fairytale????

bajer101 · 09-09-2014 7:59pm

lukesmom wrote: »

She doesn't believe in god so you don't expect her to sit and listen to something she totally disagrees with do you? You'd hardly let her sit in that room talking about a God you think is a fairytale????

Ideally she won't have to, and will be moved to a different class, but I will have to be pragmatic. The main thing is that she won't have to suffer being told that she has to believe that there is a God. My whole point in starting this thread is that I was upset that she this is what was happening, but this has hopefully now been resolved.

You seem to be trying to move the goalposts about what this thread is about. It seems to be a common trait amongst some people on this thread. Keep shifting the discussion until they find a point where they can claim victory. It reminds me of the quote:

"Debating creationists on the topic of evolution is rather like trying to play chess with a pigeon — it knocks the pieces over, craps on the board, and flies back to its flock to claim victory."

vibe666 · 09-09-2014 8:00pm

With almost every post, as impressed with the OP's daughter as I have been, I am even more disappointed on behalf of Luke and what he must have to deal with on a daily basis.

As difficult as things are for children like the OP's daughter, they are a million times worse for the Luke's of the world as those poor children get no respite as they have to come home to it as well.

Czarcasm · 09-09-2014 8:07pm

bajer101 wrote: »

I don't want to become a poster boy for atheist rights

bajer101 wrote: »

"The reasonable man adapts himself to the world; the unreasonable one persists in trying to adapt the world to himself. Therefore all progress depends on the unreasonable man."

George Bernard Shaw

bajer101 wrote: »

"Debating creationists on the topic of evolution is rather like trying to play chess with a pigeon — it knocks the pieces over, craps on the board, and flies back to its flock to claim victory."

bajer101 wrote: »

I don't want to become a poster boy for atheist rights

Riiiiiight....

lukesmom · 09-09-2014 8:08pm

vibe666 wrote: »

With almost every post, as impressed with the OP's daughter as I have been, I am even more disappointed on behalf of Luke and what he must have to deal with on a daily basis.

As difficult as things are for children like the OP's daughter, they are a million times worse for the Luke's of the world as those poor children get no respite as they have to come home to it as well.

Come home to what exactly? You haven't a clue have you? Luke and I discuss things at length. The one thing I pride myself on is he can always come to me about anything and I'll always listen to him. There's loads of stuff in the bible he doesn't agree with but he knows that arguing with the teacher won't get him anywhere. Luke can believe in what he likes. If only you knew! We are very liberal parents, very openminded sure I had him at 21, out of wedlock big deal. As I said you can't send your child to a catholic school and not expect the beliefs based on Catholicism to not be taught.

FullblownRose · 09-09-2014 8:12pm

Czarcasm wrote: »

I wouldn't say it's interesting, but it's no surprise to see some posters who are decrying people ganging up on an individual for having a dissenting opinion, those same posters then ganging up on one poster with a dissenting opinion!

That is a fair point.

Sorry to Luke'smom. That wasn't fair to you.

brianon · 09-09-2014 8:19pm

As I said you can't send your child to a catholic school and not expect the beliefs based on Catholicism to not be taught.

Have we not already established that you are perfectly within your rights to send your child to a catholic school and not have Catholicism taught to them ?

My daughter told me that today during RE herself and three others were given a work folder with handouts on maths, handwriting etc... (completely non religious) to work on while the rest of the class had RE. So far, her non participation in RE is working out great.

lukesmom · 09-09-2014 8:21pm

brianon wrote: »

Have we not already established that you are perfectly within your rights to send your child to a catholic school and not have Catholicism taught to them ?

My daughter told me that today during RE herself and three others were given a work folder with handouts on maths, handwriting etc... (completely non religious) to work on while the rest of the class had RE. So far, her non participation in RE is working out great.

That's good. She didn't try force her non beliefs in a catholic religious lesson. Fair play to her.

krankykitty · 09-09-2014 8:39pm

lukesmom wrote: »

That's good. She didn't try force her non beliefs in a catholic religious lesson. Fair play to her.

But it's OK for everyone else to force their beliefs on her? If she were a Jew or Muslim etc there would be uproar and rightfully so

I am getting the rage with people suggesting the OP shouldn't have sent her to a Catholic school. there are NO non denominational schools in Ireland. Even ET is not a proper solution for those wanting a secular education. Ireland have been told to shape up on this by the UN.

vibe666 · 09-09-2014 8:41pm

lukesmom wrote: »

Come home to what exactly? You haven't a clue have you? Luke and I discuss things at length. The one thing I pride myself on is he can always come to me about anything and I'll always listen to him. There's loads of stuff in the bible he doesn't agree with but he knows that arguing with the teacher won't get him anywhere. Luke can believe in what he likes. If only you knew! We are very liberal parents, very openminded sure I had him at 21, out of wedlock big deal. As I said you can't send your child to a catholic school and not expect the beliefs based on Catholicism to not be taught.

oh I'm sorry, I had assumed that as you seem so intent on having a spiteful dig at the OP and his daughter at every possible turn that you'd think it perfectly fair and reasonable for someone to criticise your own parenting based solely on the limited available data?

after all, you've repeatedly shown your inability to listen, read or comprehend anything that has been said here and continually read things into what is being discussed that are clearly not there at all just to suit your own opinion, so it's not to much of a stretch to believe you act in a similar way at home, which would leave me no option but to feel sorry for your child if thats what he has to come home to.

so are you saying that it is unfair of me to be so critical of someone based entirely on things they've said on an internet forum? fancy that. :rolleyes:

hopefully I've made my point on that clear?

the OP is a REAL person, with REAL feelings trying to bring up his REAL daughter under very difficult circumstances you know nothing about. try and act with a little compassion and human decency if you can manage it, even if you can't bring yourself to mean it.

just to finish, one thing which you seem utterly incapable of understanding is that the Irish Constitution (you know, that little document that helped form the Irish Republic) specifically mandates that you (and I, and everyone else) CAN (and have every right to as an Irish citizen/resident) send your child to a catholic school and expect the beliefs based on Catholicism to not be taught.

that is where this story *should* have ended, when the child in question clearly stated that she did not believe in god in the classroom, that should have been the end of it, with the teacher respecting her beliefs, making a note of it to confirm with a parent that no further RE teaching should continue, the end.

She has every right NOT to believe in god, or believe in hundreds of gods, whichever she chooses and the Irish Constitution GUARANTEES her rights to those beliefs (or non-beliefs) AND to an education that does not infringe or oppress those beliefs, just as it does for everyone else.

Please tell me how it is that after so many pages of this thread and the same thing being told to you over and over again, that you as a fully grown (i assume) adult don't understand this simple point that is blatantly obvious to a 7 year old girl?

bajer101 · 09-09-2014 8:41pm

lukesmom wrote: »

That's good. She didn't try force her non beliefs in a catholic religious lesson. Fair play to her.

Are you insinuating that my daughter tried to force her non-belief on anyone? I find it incredible that in a scenario where she she said that she doesn't believe in God and didn't try to tell anyone "that there was no God", and that she was the one who was being told that she had to believe in God by the teacher and where the other kids where the ones trying to convince her that there was a God - that this can be construed as her trying to force her non-belief on other people!

To me this sums up the difference in attitude between the two camps.

Red Nissan · 09-09-2014 8:47pm

vibe666 wrote: »

Please tell me how it is that after so many pages of this thread and the same thing being told to you over and over again, that you as a fully grown (i assume) adult don't understand this simple point that is blatantly obvious to a 7 year old girl?

She's a cracker, isn't she? She'd make me want to have more children to send to school all over again.

lukesmom · 09-09-2014 9:02pm

Red Nissan wrote: »

She's a cracker, isn't she? She'd make me want to have more children to send to school all over again.

I feel sorry for her teacher. She can't really be blamed though it's up to the parents to teach their children right from wrong, when to question and when to sit back and have some manners while the rest of the class learn about God.

bajer101 · 09-09-2014 9:03pm

Czarcasm wrote: »

Riiiiiight....

Which one of my posts that you quoted has anything to do with Atheism or leads you to believe that I want to become "a poster boy for Atheist rights"?

I was originally happy enough for my daughter to be taught Religion in school. I didn't mind that she was going to make her Communion. I never told that there is no God, but simple that I don't believe that is a God and she can make her own mind up (unlike religious people who teach their kids as fact that there is a God). I've been happy enough for her to go to Mass with her Nana. I have made her very aware that plenty of people in her family believe in God. Not exactly Mr. Militant Atheist!

I would have supported my daughter equally if she decided that she believed in a Catholic God and some teacher in her Educate together school insisted that there was no God and that is what she had to believe.

Your post is the perfect example the Chess playing Pidgeon analogy and of the other posters who for some reason are trying to have a go at me and my daughter.

lukesmom · 09-09-2014 9:06pm

bajer101 wrote: »

Which one of my posts that you quoted has anything to do with Atheism or leads you to believe that I want to become "a poster boy for Atheist rights"?

I was originally happy enough for my daughter to be taught Religion in school. I didn't mind that she was going to make her Communion. I never told that there is no God, but simple that I don't believe that is a God and she can make her own mind up (unlike religious people who teach their kids as fact that there is a God). I've been happy enough for her to go to Mass with her Nana. I have made her very aware that plenty of people in her family believe in God. Not exactly Mr. Militant Atheist!

I would have supported my daughter equally if she decided that she believed in a Catholic God and some teacher in her Educate together school insisted that there was no God and that is what she had to believe.

Your post is the perfect example the Chess playing Pidgeon analogy and of the other posters who for some reason are trying to have a go at me and my daughter.

You must be joking???? After all this you 'don't mind' if your daughter makes her communion ?????? The level of hypocrisy here is off the scale, I'm beginning to wonder if you are being serious now

Red Nissan · 09-09-2014 9:08pm

lukesmom wrote: »

I feel sorry for her teacher. She can't really be blamed though it's up to the parents to teach their children right from wrong, when to question and when to sit back and have some manners while the rest of the class learn about God.

A child in all aspects of the word, and she is honest [and brave]. What better gift can a parent bestow.

The single most important gift a child can receive is honesty.

lukesmom · 09-09-2014 9:11pm

Red Nissan wrote: »

A child in all aspects of the word, and she is honest [and brave]. What better gift can a parent bestow.

The single most important gift a child can receive is honesty.

Wrong. Love is the single most important gift a child can receive. And if you love your child you will not put them in a situation that could exclude them, especially at 7 years old the poor kid.

bajer101 · 09-09-2014 9:16pm

lukesmom wrote: »

I feel sorry for her teacher. She can't really be blamed though it's up to the parents to teach their children right from wrong, when to question and when to sit back and have some manners while the rest of the class learn about God.

What is wrong with you? You keep having a go at me and my daughter and when you get queried on this, you just ignore the questions and move on to the next insult. You ignored my last reply to your previous insinuations, so I'll try again with this one.

Are you saying that my daughter doesn't know right from wrong, or that I haven't taught her that, or that she did something wrong? What did she say or do that was unmannerly?

Why do you feel sorry for a teacher who had to resort to threatening a child that she would be sent back to her old school if she said one more time that she did not believe in God?

Does no part of you realise and understand that what my daughter did was admirable? She stood her ground against an authority figure and refused to be bullied into submission! Do you not have even the slightest grudging respect for that - or is it that you are attacking my daughter, not because you disagree with her, but that subconsciously you realise that because of the way you have raised your child, he would never similarly stand up for himself?

Red Nissan · 09-09-2014 9:19pm

bajer101 wrote: »

I never told that there is no God, but simple that I don't believe that is a God and she can make her own mind up

You're message has been taken by your child as gospel. I told my children that there was no Santa but we celebrated Christmas with the tree and presents.

I forget to tell my children that there was no tooth fairy, we have the money for the tooth thing, in adulthood, my children confessed that they believed in the tooth fairy.

Reason: I had NOT specifically told them that the tooth fairy did NOT exist.

I did what you did for the god thing, a line is you want them to be free, I understand, and I agree, if it were up to me, religion, all religion would be out the door.

I'm proud of your little girl. So should you be, rock on, one can only guide, but what we guide or not guide, may be interpreted in a way we had not anticipated.

It's really a small matter, the BIG, big story is her honesty, you sir, should be really proud of that.

vibe666 · 09-09-2014 9:20pm

Poor poor Luke, he really has no chance at all.

Red Nissan · 09-09-2014 9:28pm

lukesmom wrote: »

Wrong. Love is the single most important gift a child can receive. And if you love your child you will not put them in a situation that could exclude them, especially at 7 years old the poor kid.

One can love and still lie. It happens to zillions of kids worldwide. Hence, I say honesty.

I can feel for the child too, but she is standing up for herself. I did not get her courage until about 12 years of age myself.

bajer101 · 09-09-2014 9:30pm

lukesmom wrote: »

You must be joking???? After all this you 'don't mind' if your daughter makes her communion ?????? The level of hypocrisy here is off the scale, I'm beginning to wonder if you are being serious now

Again, you are betraying the fact that you didn't read the thread, or even my posts. For the umpteenth time, I didn't originally mind that she was going to be taught Religion or that she was going to make her Communion. But as soon as she asserted that she didn't believe in God that changed. I spoke to her about making her Communion and I explained to her what it was about and she thought about it for a few seconds and replied - "that's stupid". At this point it became obvious that it was time to have a more serious talk about Religion and that something needed to be done in school. I don't see where the hypocrisy is.

You can keep tipping away at everything I say and keep ignoring me and everyone else when we talk sense and wait for the one post where I say something that you can pounce on that you think will validate your views. But I don't think it's me you are trying to convince!

mrsbyrne · 09-09-2014 9:32pm

vibe666 wrote: »

Poor poor Luke, he really has no chance at all.

Wow.

Daughter forced to believe in God

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