When will the Muslim world relax?

Freiheit · 01-10-2012 2:03pm

There is an awful lot of violence in the Koran,that is indisputable.

A lot of Muslims,most I'm sure,at least in western society oppose violence,but they are not following the Koran.

Of course some moderate scholars,especially here,will explain away a lot of the violence in their book by 'context' 'mistranslation' etc ,a lot of Muslims on the ground do too,but the facts are that the Koran contains a lot of violence,mandates violence in a lot of situations and is an incredibly intolerant faith. Not all Muslims are intolerant,but their book is.

The Bishop! · 01-10-2012 3:07pm

Freiheit wrote: »

A lot of Muslims,most I'm sure,at least in western society oppose violence.

I'm quite sure that the vast majority of muslims, not just a lot or most, would generally oppose violence. That includes those who don't live in western society.

The violent extremist element are only a small minority.

Perhaps you read Sam Harris' article a few pages back and took him at his word. In fairness he does like to appear very well versed in this area so it's not surprising that his 'figures'/estimates appear to have some credence.

In that article he said, "Some percentage of the world’s Muslims—Five percent? Fifteen?Fifty? It’s not yet clear—is demanding that all non-Muslims conform to the strictures of Islamic law. And where they do not immediately resort to violence in their protests, they threaten it."

So according to Harris apparently up to 50% of the world population are threatening violence and demanding adherence to Islamic law.
I can only presume this percentage guestimate is not based on any scientific data whatsoever. Or to put it more bluntly, he pulled the figure out of his ass.

SeanW · 01-10-2012 3:56pm

The Bishop! wrote: »

Thom Hartmann on the other hand is a very highly respected journalist, author and broadcaster. Absolutely no comparison. None.

So what if his show is syndicated by amongst many others RT? It doesn't make his facts any less true.

Any story can be sensationalised. Anyone can theoretically find "evidence" to prove anything.

RT has a specific mandate to present the Kremlin's point of view to the international community. I watch RT the odd time and its anti American agenda is so thinly veiled ... it couldn't be any clearer. It's a joke.

The Bishop! · 01-10-2012 4:34pm

SeanW wrote: »

RT has a specific mandate to present the Kremlin's point of view to the international community. I watch RT the odd time and its anti American agenda is so thinly veiled ... it couldn't be any clearer. It's a joke.

Oh i agree it has that agenda. In saying that, Hartmann is most certainly not anti-American in his views, nor do RT have any editorial control whatsoever over with he broadcasts. He owns that show and controls it 100%.

old hippy · 01-10-2012 5:39pm

Freiheit wrote: »

There is an awful lot of violence in the Koran,that is indisputable.

A lot of Muslims,most I'm sure,at least in western society oppose violence,but they are not following the Koran.

Of course some moderate scholars,especially here,will explain away a lot of the violence in their book by 'context' 'mistranslation' etc ,a lot of Muslims on the ground do too,but the facts are that the Koran contains a lot of violence,mandates violence in a lot of situations and is an incredibly intolerant faith. Not all Muslims are intolerant,but their book is.

Could say the same thing about Christians, though. There's a lot of hatred, violence, incest, smiting, slavery and so forth in that tome...

boiledsweets · 01-10-2012 5:42pm

Richard Dawkins ‏tweeted today:

Pew poll Pakistan Muslims: 82% for stoning adulterers, 76% death penalty for apostasy. But most Muslims are "moderate"

This says it all for me being honest.

old hippy · 01-10-2012 5:50pm

boiledsweets wrote: »

This says it all for me being honest.

Yes but do you know any Muslims or do you prefer to base your opinions on tweets and polls?

boiledsweets · 01-10-2012 5:54pm

they are more interested in protest and get up and active for a mere cartoon lampooning,which we could all suffer in the public eye from time to time,but dont get so active and motivated for crimes against humanity prescribed under their own religion right under their own nose,it does make me wonder why?

Banbh · 01-10-2012 7:02pm

Old hippy: "most Muslims I know abhor violence".
Well if you know none or just one who is against violence, that would be true.

However, it is also true that muslims in the tenets of their religion, in the administration of the countries where they have religious law practice violence against women, against children, against homosexuals against those brave enough to leave their religion and those who they suspect of speaking ill of their god, their prophet and their book.

MrPudding · 02-10-2012 7:41am

old hippy wrote: »

Yes but do you know any Muslims or do you prefer to base your opinions on tweets and polls?

Unless you know a larger group of Muslims, that also happen to be more represenstive of the population that was polled whether or not you actually knowMuslims is irrelevant to the point.

How many Pakistani Muslims do you know? What makes you think that the group of Pakistani Muslims you know is more representative of Pakistani Muslims than a properly carried out poll?

We rely on polls all the time for all sorts of things. The main reason being that most of us do not know a representative sample of a particular population thereby making our anecdote based opinion worthless when compared to a properly conducted poll.

Most people, yourself included I would expect, generally don't have any issue with polls. What is the problem here. I think the Pew Foundation is fairly well respected.

MrP

The Bishop! · 02-10-2012 8:13am

It wasn't so long ago that the death penalty was a ubiquitous form of punishment in western society. Still is in some places.

Does that mean that those who agree with that punishment in the U.S. for what are deemed serious crimes in that society could be classed as violent or supporting violence?

What about the poll results in the U.S. showing significant support for war in the Middle East? Could these participants be classed violent too?

shizz · 02-10-2012 10:40am

The Bishop! wrote: »

Does that mean that those who agree with that punishment in the U.S. for what are deemed serious crimes in that society could be classed as violent or supporting violence?

Ah here, they are hardly compare able at this time. Were talking about people killing for religious reasons, such as those stated above. Not for the death penalty being given to a mass murderer.

old hippy · 02-10-2012 12:19pm

boiledsweets wrote: »

they are more interested in protest and get up and active for a mere cartoon lampooning,which we could all suffer in the public eye from time to time,but dont get so active and motivated for crimes against humanity prescribed under their own religion right under their own nose,it does make me wonder why?

nerd69 · 02-10-2012 12:29pm

Don't know if his has been said but are they all that different from the militant prodistants/Catholics up north a lot of religions breed there extremists/scumbags labelling them all extremists is the same as labelling all Irish extremists and I for 1 couldn't give a **** about religion

MrPudding · 02-10-2012 12:43pm

The Bishop! wrote: »

It wasn't so long ago that the death penalty was a ubiquitous form of punishment in western society. Still is in some places.

Does that mean that those who agree with that punishment in the U.S. for what are deemed serious crimes in that society could be classed as violent or supporting violence?

What about the poll results in the U.S. showing significant support for war in the Middle East? Could these participants be classed violent too?

I am probably about as anti-capital punishment as it is possible to be. I do not support it for any crime; but even I can see a difference between someone who supports a mass murderer getting a lethal injection and someone who support a woman who was unfaithful to her husband being buried up to her neck in sand and having stones hurled at her by her neighbours until she was dead.

MrP

boiledsweets · 02-10-2012 12:54pm

Oldhippy,Yes,I see the banners of the few there,saying it doesnt represent benghazi,fair enough, but what i would like to see them protest about crimes against humanity,..why is it we never see that?ive seen burnt buildings,and thrashed embassies over a mere lampooning cartoon..but never about crimes against humanity,what im talking about is public beheadings stonings on a mere suspicion a whisper,of homosexuality or adultery,which may or may not be the case..either way it is a very cruel and disproportionate reaction for a percieved social misdoing

I understand a lot of them live in fear,but why is it they so staunchly support a regime that prescribes murder in their book for apostates and homosexuals,when they come here ,and can have freedom of speech and expression,why is that?you cant back foot on it,and say it doesnt exist..they do prescribe murder for apostates(those who leave islam) and homosexuals,that cannot be denied just like that..

old hippy · 02-10-2012 12:57pm

boiledsweets wrote: »

I see the banners of the few there,saying it doesnt represent benghazi,fair enough, but what i would like to see them protest about crimes against humanity,..why is it we never see that?ive seen burnt buildings,and thrashed embassies over a mere lampooning cartoon..but never about crimes against humanity,what im talking about is public beheadings stonings on a mere suspicion a whisper,of homosexuality or adultery,which may or may not be the case..either way it is a very cruel and disproportionate reaction for a percieved social misdoing

I understand a lot of them live in fear,but why is it they so staunchly support a regime that prescribes murder in their book for apostates and homosexuals,when they come here ,and can have freedom of speech and expression,why is that?you cant back foot on it,and say it doesnt exist..they do prescribe murder for apostates(those who leave islam) and homosexuals,that cannot be denied just like that..

Too many "they"s and "them"s in that post for my liking. Muslims aren't one big homogenous blob, ffs.

All the Muslims I know are against the mindless violence people here like to bandy about. Of course, that's just anecdotage on my part. But I'm happy to live, love and work with people of all religions. I wish you could share my happiness.

Banbh · 02-10-2012 1:10pm

But could you say to one of these Muslims you love and work with (ugh!) that you think their holy book is an affront to all that is decent?

robindch · 02-10-2012 1:42pm

robindch wrote: »

Russia has announced that, later this year, "all of YouTube could be blocked throughout Russia" owing to the extremist content of the video, while something translated into English as "a government watchdog" was recommending that it be banned immediately:

Whew, the Russian court system came through in time -- where would the country be without it!

"Moscow court outlaws showing of anti-Islam film that has sparked riots in some Muslim nations"

http://www.washingtonpost.com/business/moscow-court-outlaws-showing-of-anti-islam-film-that-has-sparked-riots-in-some-muslim-nations/2012/10/01/df17e0ca-0bd7-11e2-97a7-45c05ef136b2_story.html

Washington Post wrote:

MOSCOW — A court in Moscow ruled Monday that an anti-Islam film that has sparked violent demonstrations around the world can no longer be shown in Russia.

Tverskoi court’s ruling follows a similar local decision taken last week by a court in Grozny, the provincial capital of Russia’s Muslim-dominated province of Chechnya. In Moscow, Justice Ministry spokeswoman Marina Gridneva said the film was deemed extremist because it could incite ethnic and religious hatred.

Russia’s communications minister had warned that authorities would bar access to YouTube if its owner, Google Inc., failed to abide by a court order to block access in this nation to the U.S.-produced film, which mocks Muslims and the Prophet Muhammad. Google in Russia has said it could restrict access to the video, if it received a court order outlawing it, but the company declined to discuss that issue with The Associated Press on Monday evening.

Outrage at the film has spiraled into violent protests across several countries across the Muslim world. Some two dozen demonstrators have been killed in protests that attacked vestiges of the U.S. and the West, including diplomatic compounds. The low-budget film, “Innocence of Muslims,” was produced by a U.S. citizen and denigrated the Prophet Muhammad by portraying Islam’s holiest figure as a fraud, womanizer and child molester.

Two issues have fueled calls by Russian lawmakers for a new law banning religious offenses: this film and the case of rock band Pussy Riot’s punk performance February in Moscow’s Christ the Savior cathedral, which saw them be convicted of hooliganism and sentenced to a two-year jail term.

The RIA-Novosti news agency quoted mufti Shafig Pshikhachev, head of the Coordination Center of Muslims in the North Caucasus, as welcoming Monday’s court ruling in Moscow. “This is a positive step in defense of believers,” Pshikhachev said. “Unfortunately, we are witnessing such events regularly, so I think the adoption of a law is good. We need a legal method of protecting the faithful and our holy places.”

Some Russian mobile telephone companies took the initiative last week by blocking access to a number of online resources, including YouTube, to its subscribers in the north Caucasus, large swathes of which are inhabited by mainly Muslim populations.

boiledsweets · 02-10-2012 5:43pm

muslims will relax when we all submit and take the path to allah...No wait arent they regulary at war with each other,with their different tribes and factions?Hmm..i dont think the muslim world will ever relax.

I would like to address this last piece to old hippy;I have actually met four muslims in my lifetime,and all four have had very much the same views while cloaked at first in pleasantaries and social niceness,it is there,they do agree with the death penalty,and one woman who worked in a drug rehab place as a volunteer,had said(much to the dismay of other collegues who were shocked,genuinely shocked to hear this),said that there would not be a drug problem in ireland if they(the authorities)had started to hang those responsible for bringing drugs into the country,and those who harboured and dealt drugs in the country..To say the least we were all a little shocked she was saying this in the first place,needless to say she didnt last long as a volunteer whatever about a paid job on the table for her.

She also told us of a story of her youth that drug dealers would reguarly be hung on the square,and she told of us a place called chop chop square in riyadh.I found the whole thing revolting how they could treat each other with such disproportionate cruelty,and harshness.

The second muslim i met was through an aunt of mine,she dated him quite a bit,and he revealed his views on a womans place to my brother,uncle and dad while they were all sitting seperate to the irish women,who were in the kitchen lol..i know very modern,but we were making the tea and sandwiches very important stuff!

The third muslim through doing a night course, i met had the same views on the death penalty and said ireland,(which i did agree with him) was too soft,and there should even be the death penalty for repeat shoplifters after their hands get hacked off,and no anaesthetic either!Nice i thought.

The fourth muslim i met was a guy and his girlfriend who is my friend,who has now converted to the faith,i still see her,but not a lot of her,which isnt a big deal,they are a couple after all.But it was the same views death to those who step out of line,he didnt agree with homosexuality either.I still like them as a couple though.I find it a bit wierd that she doesnt wear the full hijab as she says she is devout,she only wears the scarf..

Now im not saying that these muslims represent the whole muslim society,but i never see muslims speak out against the death penalty in these countries,some of these people are put to death based on a whisper,a bit of gossip,which may or may not be true.

Nodin · 02-10-2012 5:59pm

boiledsweets wrote: »

muslims will relax when we all submit and take the path to allah...No wait arent they regulary at war with each other,with their different tribes and factions?Hmm..i dont think the muslim world will ever relax.

I would like to address this last piece to old hippy;I have actually met four muslims in my lifetime,and all four have had very much the same views while cloaked at first in pleasantaries and social niceness,it is there,they do agree with the death penalty,.

Yes, thats clearly a muslim only fixation, that.

boiledsweets wrote: »

and one woman who worked in a drug rehab place as a volunteer,had said(much to the dismay of other collegues who were shocked,genuinely shocked to hear this),said that there would not be a drug problem in ireland if they(the authorities)had started to hang those responsible for bringing drugs into the country,and those who harboured and dealt drugs in the country..,.

As frequently advocated in AH (and occassionaly elsewhere), by the vast horde of muslims who post there, and as is enacted in law in Thailand, the Phillipines, Vietnam and Singapore - all notorious muslim sharia states.

boiledsweets wrote: »

The second muslim i met was through an aunt of mine,she dated him quite a bit,and he revealed his views on a womans place to my brother,uncle and dad while they were all sitting seperate to the irish women,who were in the kitchen lol..i know very modern,but we were making the tea and sandwiches very important stuff!..,.

Yep, totally a muslim only thing there, and found in no other circumstances in the developing world.

boiledsweets wrote: »

The fourth muslim i met was a guy and his girlfriend who is my friend,who has now converted to the faith,i still see her,but not a lot of her,which isnt a big deal,they are a couple after all.But it was the same views death to those who step out of line,he didnt agree with homosexuality either.I still like them as a couple though.I find it a bit wierd that she doesnt wear the full hijab as she says she is devout,she only wears the scarf..
.,.

Homophobia? Yep, another muslim only problem.

boiledsweets wrote: »

Now im not saying that these muslims represent the whole muslim society,but i never see muslims speak out against the death penalty in these countries,some of these people are put to death based on a whisper,a bit of gossip,which may or may not be true.

What do you think would happen if you "spoke out" in Saudi, Iran or the like.....?

Nodin · 02-10-2012 6:02pm

Banbh wrote: »

But could you say to one of these Muslims you love and work with (ugh!) .......

Perhaps you could prescribe a decleansing regime for him, and indeed any of us who've been contaminated by the presence of somebody of a different religous background. How would you go about the problem of the handshake? Avoid or gloves?

boiledsweets · 02-10-2012 6:03pm

What do you think would happen if you "spoke out" in Saudi, Iran or the like.....?

Funny,when i see muslims here,who are in a privledged position to speak out ,they dont.

And if you ask muslims what they think,some of them will say they agree with the death penalty.

I find it so strange that muslims will stick to this so stauchly and promote it as a way forward ,when they know better,from first hand experience in their own countries,people who are put to death have relatives and friends,im sure it touched their lives in this way.But still they wont speak out about crimes against humanity in ireland,but they will organise a protest about a lampooning cartoon.I just find the whole thing so strange.

Homophobia? Yep, another muslim only problem.

Homophobia is written into their laws making it all the more dangerous.

Nodin · 02-10-2012 6:08pm

boiledsweets wrote: »

And if you ask muslims what they think,some of them will say they agree with the death penalty..

Yeah, like that place that has the biggest number of executions in the Western world...o yes...the Islamic Republic of Texas.

boiledsweets wrote: »

I find it so strange that muslims will stick to this so stauchly and promote it as a way forward ,when they know better,from first hand experience in their own countries ..

I have to wonder at this stage if you're taking the proverbial.

boiledsweets wrote: »

Homophobia is written into their laws making it all the more dangerous.

And is that a problem only known to exist in Islamic majority countries? I can safely say no, its not.

boiledsweets · 02-10-2012 6:18pm

And is that a problem only known to exist in Islamic majority countries? I can safely say no, its not.

The problem is more widely socially accepted there,as it is written into their laws,why do you choose to ignore this?

Nodin · 02-10-2012 6:36pm

boiledsweets wrote: »

The problem is more widely socially accepted there,as it is written into their laws,why do you choose to ignore this?

....I'm not ignoring it, I'm stating - entirely correctly - that its not a problem or set of attitudes unique to muslims or Islamic majority states.

robindch · 02-10-2012 6:53pm

boiledsweets wrote: »

why do you choose to ignore this?

Christmas2012. Look, if you want to post here in A+A after you've been permanently toasted, please take the subject up in feedback or somewhere similar. If the gods agree, I'm sure there'll be no problem reinstating whatever new account you dream up.

/sheesh

The Bishop! · 03-10-2012 12:34am

MrPudding wrote: »

I am probably about as anti-capital punishment as it is possible to be. I do not support it for any crime; but even I can see a difference between someone who supports a mass murderer getting a lethal injection and someone who support a woman who was unfaithful to her husband being buried up to her neck in sand and having stones hurled at her by her neighbours until she was dead.

MrP

Of course. And it wasn't meant in any way to condone that barbarity. Sorry if it came across that way.

Lapin · 03-10-2012 12:42am

Liamario wrote: »

I for one look forward to a nuclear holocaust; it's the only thing that's going to stop the crazy fundamentalists, east and west.

Fúcking eejit.

It had to be said Mods.

How long am I banned for ?

Dades · 03-10-2012 10:53am

Lapin wrote:

How long am I banned for ?

Assuming Liamario was being tongue-in-cheek, maybe we'll assume you missed this.

Moving on...

When will the Muslim world relax?

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